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AlKhidr

Shia Challenging Questions

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To OP.

FYI, You may want to define your Fundamental Concepts here. Before going into of technical analysis[which could be subjective]. Not all Laypeople know or have mastery of Arabic language, but our intellects can understand simple/complex logical/rational concepts. 

 

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17 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Of course he is not operating by his own accord. His saying, teaching, explanations is from Allah, no one is denying it!

Of course it is from Allah (swt).

How it is so hard for you to understand, that the first teaching and explanations of any verses that is manifest to us (We, the non-messenger people) was from the Prophet? It was Allah (swt) who inspired the messenger the explanations of what was revealed. And it was us who listened its explanations from the Messenger.

It is pointless challenge or claim, because it does not even give any benefit or logical conclusion why we should or not take any narrations. Also the whole claim is based on your demands and thinking that if Allah (swt) want us follow the hadith, it must be mentioned explicitly in Qur'an, which many Quranist make the same mistake, giving demands to God.
 
Do you even understand what is the point of the hadith? It is a piece of evidence about Prophet Muhammad (saws) sayings, teaching, acting etc. These attributes are commanded by the Qur'an to be followed. The Prophet did not say anything to their companions, DO NOT write down my teaching/explanation and my acts and sayings. How do you think the first companions at that time passed the information about the prophet teaching to next generation? Yeah, trough narration.

How do you come to conclusion from this verse that whatever was inspired by Allah (swt) is founded only from the Qur'an? Could Allah (swt) inspire something to Prophet that actually is not manifested in Qur'an?

Let use this logic. First we have this verse:

Nor was he speaking out of a personal desire.

Then we read these verses:

And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns – it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveller – so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you – take; and what he has forbidden you – refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty. [Quran 59:7]

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. [Quran 4:65]

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- [Quran 62:2]

So the Messenger get inspiration from Allah {swt} to instruct wisdom (Notice, different from Scripture!) to people or give person x something, or is judge between all disputes is recorded in Qur'an? No?. So Qur'an is not the only inspiration the prophet can get.

I just read where you and I agree that the source of the teachings, explanation is from Allah and that Muhammad is not operating on his own accord.  I have a question for you as a result of your comment here:

"How it is so hard for you to understand, that the first teaching and explanations of any verses that is manifest to us (We, the non-messenger people) was from the Prophet? It was Allah (swt) who inspired the messenger the explanations of what was revealed."

When you said it was Allah who inspired the Messenger the explanations of what was revealed to him are you talking about hadiyth books or the Qur'aan?

You have said this:

"So the Messenger get inspiration from Allah {swt} to instruct wisdom (Notice, different from Scripture!) to people or give person x something, or is judge between all disputes is recorded in Qur'an? No?. So Qur'an is not the only inspiration the prophet can get."

Note Allah never said the hikmah (wisdom) are hadiyth books in the Qur'aan, this is your wishful thinking; It is also very important to highlight the fact that you failed to meet my CHALLENGE and produce one verse where Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and tell us to believe in it or that we will get guidance from it or that its the sunna of Rasuwl Allah.  Now to respond to your statement up above, if we asked Rasuwl Allah which book that he used to JUDGE/RULE/LEGISLATE over us he will emphatically say the Qur'aan because that is the only kitaab given to him and no hadiyths:

Qur'aan 4:105

We have sent down to you the scripture (Al Qur'aan), truthfully, in order to JUDGE/RULE among the people in accordance with what Allah has shown you.  You shall not be an advocate for those who betray trust.

Again as we all can see Prophet Muhammad used the Qur'aan, not hadiyth nor his own personal words to JUDGE/RULE/LEGISLATE over us.  Now I am going to ask you again to produce just one verse in the Qur'aan to meet this CHALLENGE below because you have failed in your first attempt which if found on page 20 in my book (SHIA CHALLENGING QUESTIONS) exposing the Shia sect:

THE SHI'ITE MYTH 3:

The Shi'ite and the Sunni sect both have fabricated two separate sets of hadiyth that they teach are authentic.  Below is the list of the Shi'ite and Sunni set of hadiyth:

 

Shi’ite accept:

Kafi of Abu Ja'fa Muhammad

Man la Yastuhdirahul Fiqah of Shaikh Ali

Tahdhib of Shaikh abu Jafar Muhammad

Najhu’l Balaghah of Sayyid Radi

 

Sunni accept:

Muwatta of Malik ibn Ans

Jamu’us Sahih of Bukhari

Sahih of Muslim

Sunan of Abu Daoud Sulaiman

Jami of Tirmidhi

Kitabus Sunan of Muhammad ibn Yazid ibn Majah of Qazwani

 

How could this be when Prophet Muhammad was ONE man.  How could one man have two separate, conflicting sets of hadiyth????  This right here let you know that there is a game that is being played on the Mumineen (The Believers) and those who are sincerely seeking truth by the Shi'ite and Sunni Ulama. The Shi'ite rejects the Sunni hadiyth as authentic and the Sunni rejects the Shi'ite hadiyth as authentic.  In due time by the will of Allah Ta'ala the Shi'ite and Sunni sect will realize that both of their schools of thought are false and unfounded in the Holy Qur'aan.

 

3A.  SINCE THE SHI'ITE SECT BELIEVES THAT THEIR SET OF HADIYTH ARE AUTHENTIC THEN I CHALLENGE YOU TO PRODUCE ONE VERSE IN THE QUR'AAN WHERE Allah USES THE WORD HADIYTH ÿ AND SAY ANY ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:

 

(1) We are suppose to believe in hadiyth or

 

(2) We are suppose to follow hadiyth or

 

(3) We will get guidance from hadiyth or

 

(4) Hadiyth was revealed or sent down (nazzala) to   Muhammad or

 

(5) Hadiyth is the sunna of Muhammad

 

????????????????????????????

Edited by AlKhidr

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18 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

[Pickthal 97:1] Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination.
[Pickthal 97:2] Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is!
[Pickthal 97:3] The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Pickthal 97:5] (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.

What was Revealed?

The Qur'aan was revealed and nothing else.  I would advise you to read Qur'aan 6:19 to see which kitaab (book or scripture) was revealed to Prophet Muhammad.

Edited by AlKhidr

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11 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.

And here in 97:4?

The Angelic Beings played a role in the revealing of the Qur'aan.  Note that the Arabic word for Spirit is Ruwh and this is the Angelic Being Gabriel who is the main one responsible for revealing the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad.  When you read the Qur'aan, Allah only tells us that He revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad, you will never find no verse in the Qur'aan talking about any other book beside the Qur'aan.  I will leave you with this verse:

Qur'aan 2:185

Ramadaan is the month during which the Qur’aan was revealed, providing guidance for the people and clear evidences from the guidance, and gives the ability to differentiate (between truth and falsehood).  Those of you who witness this month shall fast during it.  Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days.  Allah wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify Allah for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

Edited by AlKhidr

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@AlKhidr

Bro, we believe hadith are the reports regarding the sunna of Muhammad (number 5) and by following the hadith (number 2), we will get guidance (number 3). Why are you repeating the same question ad nauseaum? That is not an argument or a debate but an feeble conversion attempt to something that is not Islam. 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Quote

When you said it was Allah who inspired the Messenger the explanations of what was revealed to him are you talking about hadiyth books or the Qur'aan?

The verse is self explanatory. Explaining us what was revealed i.e, Qur'an. And this explanation is passed down to next generations. And such an part of information is what is found in narrations.

Quote

Note Allah never said the hikmah (wisdom) are hadiyth books in the Qur'aan, this is your wishful thinking; 

What is wishful thinking is the things you assume about me when i have not even assumed such a thing. No where did I imply that Hikmah means Hadith books. The point of the verse is that Qur'an and Hikmah are two different things. Both are inspire from Allah (SWT). Conclusion is that Allah (swt) did not reveal Qur'an only, but Wisdom too.
 

Quote

 It is also very important to highlight the fact that you failed to meet my CHALLENGE and produce one verse where Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and tell us to believe in it or that we will get guidance from it or that its the sunna of Rasuwl Allah. 

Lol, how I failed when I'm not interesting to take such a Challenge in first place?

Quote

Again as we all can see Prophet Muhammad used the Qur'aan, not hadiyth nor his own personal words to JUDGE/RULE/LEGISLATE over us.

There is no such a thing that personal words of Prophet to Judge us. Everything what he said, gave, teaches, explained, act are from the command of Allah (swt). For example when the Prophet was teaching wisdom to people, such a wisdom is not necessary found explicitly in Qur'an.

Is there a verse that say whatever Allah inspire to Prophet Muhammad, it is a Qur'an verse?

Quote
Quote

The Angelic Beings played a role in the revealing of the Qur'aan.  Note that the Arabic word for Spirit is Ruwh and this is the Angelic Being Gabriel who is the main one responsible for revealing the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad.  When you read the Qur'aan, Allah only tells us that He revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad, you will never find no verse in the Qur'aan talking about any other book beside the Qur'aan.  I will leave you with this verse:

 

No. You are very incorrect. In that verse the Angels and The Spirit are two separate things. The Angles do include the Gabriel already, but The Spirit in this verse can't even mean Gabriel. See these are the mistakes you people make easily.

Anyway good luck with your mission, I don't have time to repeat myself and nor do I have much time to reply in this thread.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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I provided you with the entire Surah verses 1-5.

Verse 1: Yopu said its the Qur'an.

Verse 4:

1] what are ALL Decrees? are they part of the Qur'an or separate? 

2]It says "The Angels and the Spirit"

Demonstrate in each case. How did you come  to this conclusion , based on only Qur'an ? 

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17 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

The verse is self explanatory. Explaining us what was revealed i.e, Qur'an. And this explanation is passed down to next generations. And such an information is what we call narrations.

What is wishful thinking is the things you assume about me when i have not even assumed such a thing. No where did I imply that Hikmah means Hadith books. The point of the verse is that Qur'an and Hikmah are two different things. Both are inspire from Allah (SWT). Conclusion is that Allah (swt) did not reveal Qur'an only, but Wisdom too.
 

Lol, how I failed when I'm not interesting to take such a Challenge in first place, because it is stupid one?

There is no such a thing that personal words of Prophet to Judge us. Everything what he said, gave, teaches, explained, act are from the command of Allah (swt). For example when the Prophet was teaching wisdom to people, such a wisdom is not necessary found in Qur'an.

Is there a verse that say whatever Allah inspire to Prophet Muhammad, it is a Qur'an verse?

Anyway good luck with your mission, I don't have time to repeat myself and nor do I have much time to reply in this thread.

You said, "And this explanation is passed down to next generations. And such an information is what we call narrations."  prove this in the Qur'aan that the narrations you speak about are hadiyth.  All you are doing is just presenting empty statements, you provide no proof of nothing in the Qur'aan.  I'm still waiting for you to meet my CHALLENGE.  What is the problem, why can't you produce just one verse to meet my CHALLENGE to prove that hadiyth is a source of Islaam that is backed by Allah.

I noticed that you said this:

"What is wishful thinking is the things you assume about me when i have not even assumed such a thing. No where did I imply that Hikmah means Hadith books. The point of the verse is that Qur'an and Hikmah are two different things. Both are inspire from Allah (SWT). Conclusion is that Allah (swt) did not reveal Qur'an only, but Wisdom too."

You believe that hikmah (wisdom) is something separate from the Qur'aan.  Are you saying that the hikmah (wisdom) is another kitaab that Allah revealed beside the  Qur'aan?  Explain to us what are you actually saying the hikmah (wisdom) is?  Quite being so vague in your response.

"Lol, how I failed when I'm not interesting to take such a Challenge in first place, because it is stupid one?"

We all know you can't meet the CHALLENGE; you cannot produce not one verse to prove that the Shia hadiyth books is a source of Islaam in the Qur'aan.  Your belief system is no where found in Kalima Allah.

"For example when the Prophet was teaching wisdom to people, such a wisdom is not necessary found in Qur'an."

Where is this wisdom you talk about found?  Where can we find it at?  Why are you being to vague and not forth coming to tell us.  You are tip toeing to avoid falling into a trap and this is why you keep talking in circles without directly providing answers.

Edited by AlKhidr

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You believe that hikmah (wisdom) is something separate from the Qur'aan.  Are you saying that the hikmah (wisdom) is another kitaab that Allah revealed beside the  Qur'aan?  Explain to us what are you actually saying the hikmah (wisdom) is?  Quite being so vague in your response.

It is separate from the Qur'an, that is why Allah said Quran and Wisdom. No I'm not saying Hikmah is another Kitab. What is Hikmah is inspiration to Prophet.

Quote

Where is this wisdom you talk about found?  Where can we find it at?

You can find them from the teaching of Nabi, so recorded narrations. 

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38 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

I provided you with the entire Surah verses 1-5.

Verse 1: Yopu said its the Qur'an.

Verse 4:

1] what are ALL Decrees? are they part of the Qur'an or separate? 

2]It says "The Angels and the Spirit"

Demonstrate in each case. How did you come  to this conclusion , based on only Qur'an ? 

 

First I want to say the translation that you presented is not a good translation  of that Sura  and the way they translated verse 1 and verse 4, its not good, its confusing.  Below is an accurate translation of that Sura:

 

Qur'aan 97:1-5

1.  We revealed it in the Night of Power.

2.  And by what means would you perceive what the Night of Power is?

3.  The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

4.  The Angelic Beings and the Spirit descend therein, by their Lord's leave, to carry out every command.

5.  Peace enveloped (this exalted Night) until the advent of the dawn.

 

Verse 4 is not literally talking about degrees.  The Arabic word there is Amr and this verse is talking about how the Angelic Beings carry out all the commands of Allah.  Verse 4 is not talking about no other kitaab or book, or scripture, again it is only talking about how the Angelic Beings carry out all the commands of Allah.  This Sura is talking about the first night the Qur'aan was revealed which was during Laylatu'l Qadri (The Night Of Power).  The one that you presented mistranslated verse 1 to say "The Night Of Predestination".  Verse 1 is not talking about predestination.  The Arabic word there is Qadr which means: Measure, Degree or Divine Degree, Rank, Quantity, Power but not predestination.  Verse 1 is talking about the Qur'aan only that was revealed in Ramadaan during Laylatu'l Qadri (The Night Of Power).  Now please read the verse below which is connected to this Sura:

 

Qur'aan 2:185

Ramadaan is the month during which the Qur’aan was revealed, providing guidance for the people and clear evidences from the guidance, and gives the ability to differentiate (between truth and falsehood).  Those of you who witness this month shall fast during it.  Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days.  Allah wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify Allah for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

Edited by AlKhidr

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21 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

It is separate from the Qur'an, that is why Allah said Quran and Wisdom. No I'm not saying Hikmah is another Kitab. What is Hikmah is inspiration to Prophet.

You can find them from the teaching of Nabi, so recorded narrations. 

When you said this "You can find them from the teaching of Nabi, so recorded narrations" when you said this, you are talking about the hadiyth books correct???  Note before you answer keep in mind the Qur'aan was NAZZALA (REVEALED OR SENT DOWN) from Allah, the Qur'aan is not a human recorded narration so when you made this statement you are in fact referring to those hadiyth books correct???

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4 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

When you said this "You can find them from the teaching of Nabi, so recorded narrations" when you said this, you are talking about the hadiyth books correct???  Note before you answer keep in mind the Qur'aan was NAZZALA (REVEALED OR SENT DOWN) from Allah, the Qur'aan is not a human recorded narration so when you made this statement you are in fact referring to those hadiyth books correct???

What else it could be then? Of course I'm referring to the recorded historical narrations.

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54 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@AlKhidr

Bro, we believe hadith are the reports regarding the sunna of Muhammad (number 5) and by following the hadith (number 2), we will get guidance (number 3). Why are you repeating the same question ad nauseaum? That is not an argument or a debate but an feeble conversion attempt to something that is not Islam. 

Please refer to my response to SMHA about this Sura:

Qur'aan 97:1-5

1.  We revealed it in the Night of Power.

2.  And by what means would you perceive what the Night of Power is?

3.  The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

4.  The Angelic Beings and the Spirit descend therein, by their Lord's leave, to carry out every command.

5.  Peace enveloped (this exalted Night) until the advent of the dawn.

 

Gaius I did not realize the Shi'ite Muslims interpret this Sura to refer to hadiyth books.  If Shi'ite Muslims believe that, that's a way out unfounded interpretation of this Sura.  There is no way in the world a Muslim can actually believe this Sura can refer to hadiyth, its impossible.  This is something I learnt new about the Shi'ite Muslims.

Edited by AlKhidr

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5 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

Qur'aan 97:1-5

1.  We revealed it in the Night of Power.

2.  And by what means would you perceive what the Night of Power is?

3.  The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

4.  The Angelic Beings and the Spirit descend therein, by their Lord's leave, to carry out every command.

5.  Peace enveloped (this exalted Night) until the advent of the dawn.

 

 

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَاهُ فِي لَيْلَةِ الْقَدْرِ {1}

[Shakir 97:1] Surely We revealed it on the grand night.
[Pickthal 97:1] Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination.
[Yusufali 97:1] We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:

وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ {2}

[Shakir 97:2] And what will make you comprehend what the grand night is?
[Pickthal 97:2] Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is!
[Yusufali 97:2] And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?

لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ أَلْفِ شَهْرٍ {3}

[Shakir 97:3] The grand night is better than a thousand months.
[Pickthal 97:3] The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
[Yusufali 97:3] The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

سَلَامٌ هِيَ حَتَّىٰ مَطْلَعِ الْفَجْرِ {5}

[Shakir 97:5] Peace! it is till the break of the morning.
[Pickthal 97:5] (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.
[Yusufali 97:5] Peace!...This until the rise of morn!

*****

Who do these Angels and Spirit come down to ?

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6 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَاهُ فِي لَيْلَةِ الْقَدْرِ {1}

[Shakir 97:1] Surely We revealed it on the grand night.
[Pickthal 97:1] Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination.
[Yusufali 97:1] We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:

وَمَا أَدْرَاكَ مَا لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ {2}

[Shakir 97:2] And what will make you comprehend what the grand night is?
[Pickthal 97:2] Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is!
[Yusufali 97:2] And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?

لَيْلَةُ الْقَدْرِ خَيْرٌ مِنْ أَلْفِ شَهْرٍ {3}

[Shakir 97:3] The grand night is better than a thousand months.
[Pickthal 97:3] The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
[Yusufali 97:3] The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.

تَنَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

سَلَامٌ هِيَ حَتَّىٰ مَطْلَعِ الْفَجْرِ {5}

[Shakir 97:5] Peace! it is till the break of the morning.
[Pickthal 97:5] (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.
[Yusufali 97:5] Peace!...This until the rise of morn!

*****

Who do these Angels and Spirit come down to ?

One of the key things the Angelic Beings and the Spirit are coming down to be before Prophet Muhammad and they are playing a role in the revealing of the Qur'aan.  This is what Allah is conveying to is in this Sura.  If they are also doing other things beyond that, well Allah did not record it in the Qur'aan so we will never know but Allah gave us enough information to let us know that He Nazzala (Revealed or Sent Down) the Qur'aan on the Night Of Power so there is no doubt that the Angelic Beings and the Spirit played their role, carried our their functions in this system that Allah The Exalted has created. 

You can also examine a lot of different translations of the Qur'aan here:

http://readquranonline.org

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11 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

Gaius I did not realize the Shi'ite Muslims interpret this Sura to refer to hadiyth books.  If Shi'ite Muslims believe that, that's a way out unfounded interpretation of this Sura.  There is no way in the world a Muslim can actually believe this Sura can refer to hadiyth, its impossible.  This is something I learnt new about the Shi'ite Muslims.

No, I mean in general, @AlKhidr, I wasn't talking about Surah Al-Qadr specifically.

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5 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

One of the key things the Angelic Beings and the Spirit are coming down to be before Prophet Muhammad and they are playing a role in the revealing of the Qur'aan. 

Angels and Spirit, Both come down to the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]?

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5 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Angels and Spirit, Both come down to the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]?

Of course they came down before Prophet Muhammad.  Remember verse 1 says "We revealed it in the Night of Power."  You see the Qur'aan was revealed to Prophet Muhammad and no one else so the Angelic Beings and the Spirit was down there with Prophet Muhammad.

SMHA do you believe they came down to Ali?

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10 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, I mean in general, @AlKhidr, I wasn't talking about Surah Al-Qadr specifically.

Now I understand Gaius what you was talking about, you mean they believe that in general.

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5 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

Of course they came down before Prophet Muhammad.  Remember verse 1 says "We revealed it in the Night of Power."  You see the Qur'aan was revealed to Prophet Muhammad and no one else so the Angelic Beings and the Spirit was down there with Prophet Muhammad.

SMHA do you believe they came down to Ali?

No, we believe they came to Muhammad (saws) like you.

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7 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

Of course they came down before Prophet Muhammad.  

You said Spirit brings the Qur;an

and Angels 

نَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

All to the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]? 

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6 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You said Spirit brings the Qur;an

and Angels 

نَزَّلُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ فِيهَا بِإِذْنِ رَبِّهِمْ مِنْ كُلِّ أَمْرٍ {4}

[Shakir 97:4] The angels and Gibreel descend in it by the permission of their Lord for every affair,
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Yusufali 97:4] Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:

All to the Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]? 

Of course they were all before Prophet Muhammad during Laylatu'l Qadri (The Night Of Power).

You didn't answer my question, do you believe they came down before Ali?

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13 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

Of course they were all before Prophet Muhammad during Laylatu'l Qadri (The Night Of Power).

 

Qur'an was Revealed and Angels come down with All Affairs on that Night to Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp].[ Why don't you think about this and reevaluate the main point that you are arguing here]

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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5 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

ALHAMDULILLAH!!!!

But Allah (swt) ordained also the Ahlulbayt (as) to come from Muhammad (saws) and be a spiritual safeguard for us and guide us in jurisprudence, akhlaq and iman. They have a much higher role than the Khalifa  or nabis and are the some of best and most exemplary humans to walk the face of the earth. Put it this way, Ibrahim (as) became an Imam in old age, the Imams (as) from the Ahlulbayt (as) were born Imams (as) from what I understand. This why we'll never see eye to eye because you apparently have an issue with it.  

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12 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

But Allah (swt) ordained also the Ahlulbayt (as) to come from Muhammad (saws) and be a spiritual safeguard for us and guide us in jurisprudence, akhlaq and iman. They have a much higher role than the Khalifa  or nabis and are the some of best and most exemplary humans to walk the face of the earth. Put it this way, Ibrahim (as) became an Imam in old age, the Imams (as) from the Ahlulbayt (as) were born Imams (as) from what I understand. This why we'll never see eye to eye because you apparently have an issue with it.  

Yes you are right about how we don't see eye to eye about this because you and I go way back at the beginning of this post with each other.  I will add these points, you see Allah never mentioned in the Qur'aan Ali nor any of the 12 Khalifas the Shi'ites recognize.  However, The Nabi (Prophet) that you mentioned which is Abraham is mentioned by name in the Qur'aan and Allah COMMANDED, INSTRUCTED,DIRECTED Prophet Muhammad to follow the Religion of Abraham and Allah in the Qur'aan also tells us that He chose Abraham in this physical world and in the Hearafter and Allah also told us in the Qur'aan that any one who forsakes the Religion of Abraham makes a fool of himself so there is no doubt about it that Abraham has rank in the House of Islaam over those men whom Shi'ite believes that Allah has NEVER EVER MENTIONED IN THE QUR'AAN.  It does not take a rocket scientist to understand this. 

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19 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Qur'an was Revealed and Angels come down with All Affairs on that Night to Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp].[ Why don't you think about this and reevaluate the main point that you are arguing here]

 

Why don't you share with me what you believe?  Why you don't answer my questions?

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20 minutes ago, AlKhidr said:

I will add these points, you see Allah never mentioned in the Qur'aan Ali nor any of the 12 Khalifas the Shi'ites recognize. 

Not Khalifas, Imams, big difference. A Khalifa is a political figure, the Imams (as) were spiritual figures and teachers, with the exception of Ali ibn Abi Talib who also was one of the Rashidun Caliphate and Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib who also ruled as Caliph as well before abdicating to Muawiyah.  I do not know why you keep making this mistake over and over again. The Imamate isn't stated directly but implied in the Qur'an, @AlKhidr

P.S. The Mahdi (ajtfs) will also be a Caliph as well.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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5 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Not Khalifas, Imams, big difference. A Khalifa is a political figure, the Imams (as) were spiritual figures and teachers, with the exception of Ali ibn Abi Talib who also was one of the Rashidun Caliphate and Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib who also ruled as Caliph as well before abdicating to Muawiyah.  I do not know why you keep making this mistake over and over again. The Imamate isn't stated directly but implied in the Qur'an, @AlKhidr

The men that the Shi'ite lists as Imams, I'm talking about the list of the ones the Shi'ite says are infallible, thus none of them are mentioned in the Qur'aan by name.  However, Abraham is and we are told to follow the Religion of Abraham (Milla Ibrahiym) not the imams under the Shi'ite sect.  This is a weak case with the Shi'ite sect.  The only thing you can bring to the table is say they are implied???  This notion is subjective, the facts are this in the Qur'aan Allah tells us who to follow, what to follow, what to believe in and Allah does not live this open for conjecture or wishful thinking like how you say "they are implied".  That is a very very very weak case about the Shi'ite sect.  Al Haqq is not implied, its directly written in Kalima Allah.

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Allah being Al Haqq is also Al Latif (The Subtle) and Al Batin (The Hidden). That being said,the Qur'an being Allah's book for us of course, is going to have meanings that aren't so apparent and implied to us. We see following the Ahlulbayt (as) as a continuation of Milla Ibrahim (as), so I don't know exactly what your deal is. 

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5 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Allah being Al Haqq is also Al Latif (The Subtle) and Al Batin (The Hidden). That being said,the Qur'an being Allah's book for us of course, is going to have meanings that aren't so apparent and implied to us. We see following the Ahlulbayt (as) as a continuation of Milla Ibrahim (as), so I don't know exactly what your deal is

The deal is very clear, none of your imams or khalias is mentioned in the Qur'aan for us to believe in or follow.  Allah will not make something like this ambiguous, only sects, cults, organizations that try to brainwash people prey or exploit things of this nature to deceive the masses.

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