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AlKhidr

Shia Challenging Questions

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3 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@shiaman14 I see, I'm surprised that he didn't get banned from his absolutely horrid and abusive language. He is probably the most subtle Code 19'er I've met, not in his language unfortunately but in his beliefs. 

yes brother - that's why it took 9 pages of trashing talking to expose him.

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@shiaman14 I can't believe that the whole thing escalated simply because I told him that he was wrong in his own interpretation of the verses 15:26 and 28, plus did you see how livid he got when I told him that his interpretation was similar to Louis Farrakhan's?

Honestly, I didn't like how he was trying to desecrate the history of the Nubians and Copts with his lies. He should learn to grow up and learn actual history instead projecting his insecurities through lying. Doesn't do him any good to lie, plus he proverbially shot himself in the foot by giving the link to the translations of the Qur’an and never specified which one he uses. 

I don't know why people like Khidr go out their way to mock us and "correct" our aqidah. 

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

@shiaman14 I can't believe that the whole thing escalated simply because I told him that he was wrong in his own interpretation of the verses 15:26 and 28, plus did you see how livid he got when I told him that his interpretation was similar to Louis Farrakhan's?

Honestly, I didn't like how he was trying to desecrate the history of the Nubians and Copts with his lies. He should learn to grow up and learn actual history instead projecting his insecurities through lying. Doesn't do him any good to lie, plus he proverbially shot himself in the foot by giving the link to the translations of the Qur’an and never specified which one he uses. 

I don't know why people like Khidr go out their way to mock us and "correct" our aqidah. 

Brother - things escalated when he started accusing everyone of racism and being ignorant, etc. Believe it or not, I actually answered all his questions from the Quran but did not post them because he was not here to learn but rather brainwash us. That's why I focused on the very first lie of his about the Prophet. He actually wrote in the 'pamphlet' and in these exchanges that the Prophet was not meant to teach the Quran and yet he is here to teach us. He also said the the Quran today is in the exact order that the Prophet left it in and all other stories about Calph Uthman arranging the codex is wrong.

The guy is a joke. I hope this topic gets closed.

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1 minute ago, shiaman14 said:

Brother - things escalated when he started accusing everyone of racism and being ignorant, etc. Believe it or not, I actually answered all his questions from the Quran but did not post them because he was not here to learn but rather brainwash us. That's why I focused on the very first lie of his about the Prophet. He actually wrote in the 'pamphlet' and in these exchanges that the Prophet was not meant to teach the Quran and yet he is here to teach us. He also said the the Quran today is in the exact order that the Prophet left it in and all other stories about Calph Uthman arranging the codex is wrong.

The guy is a joke. I hope this topic gets closed.

Me too, the topic was absolutely pointless. I can't believe at one point in my life, I associated with these losers at Freeminds.org. It is like the saying "By it's fruit, a tree is known" except in this case: By his followers, the true intentions of Rashad Khalifa are known. This is what happens when people who do not study Islam think they know better than those who studied Islam a great deal.

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On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2015 at 3:49 PM, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

If he guys noticed he hasn't answered a single question that I've asked him.

He also believes that Rashid Khalifa [EDITED] who immigrated from Egypt to the United States who started claiming he was a messenger of god who came to abolish hadith in the 20th century is going to teach us how to pray.  You linked us to this "Rashid Khalifa", the person who created the concept of the 19 code and claimed it was his proof for his prophet-hood?

 

Let's make a deal ok? If you can answer these two questions logically [EDITED]

Did Prophet muhammad [saw] change the religion of Allah?

How many rakaa are in salatul fajr and where can I attain the number?

 

Abu-Jafar Herz

You said these crazy statements:

"He also believes that Rashad Khalifa who immigrated from Egypt to the United States who started claiming he was a messenger of god"

You need to quite lying to the people.  I CHALLENGE you to quote me any where I said that I follow Rashad Khalifa???  I CHALLENGE you to quote me any where I said Rashad Khalifa is a rasuwl (messenger)???  You need to quite lying.  Is this how you debate by fabricating falsehood and slander against your opponents.  You need to read my previous posts in here where I answered or address this question.  I am not a follower of Rashad Khalifa and I reject his claims about him being a rasuwl (messenger).  Why don't you go and contact his organization and ask them if I am a member or not, they will tell you LAA (NO)!!!

You also said this:

"the person who created the concept of the 19 code"

First of all Rashad Khalifa did not create the mathematical code (19).  There are mathematical patterns in the Qur'aan based on the prime number 19 and this was done by Allah when he revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad of Arabia.  You need to get your facts straight.  Abu-Jafar Herz, you know better than this, what you are trying to do is reach the people with EMOTIONS-this is your tactic, rather than go toe-to-toe with me in the scriptures of Allah and prove your arguments with evidence which we all know (including your self) you cannot do.  You are not even close to being on my level and I consider my self to be one of the children of the slaves.

 

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Assalamu Alaikum,

I have written a small but detailed e-book and named it as "Critical Evaluation of Rashad Khalifa, with Quran-Alone"

I need your sincere support in cascading this book to all your appropriate contacts as it may wash-out my sins of preaching of deen-e-khalifa for few years, when I was in the trap of Khalifates.

This small E-Book: "Critical Evaluation of Rashad Khalifa with Quran-Alone", is the result of years of data gathered interacting with people for and against Rashad Khalifa in internet forums and in real life, including my personal experience and research. Many have contributed to this book, directly and indirectly, knowingly and unknowingly.

I want to pray for all the people, who by the grace of Allah [SWTA], helped me to open my eyes; thanks to their criticism. Actually it took me too long to realize the facts and gradually I understood what Rashad Khalifa was really about.

I believe the “Submitter” movement that he founded will collapse if people have the courage to read and study carefully this simple book, and face the facts and pass down the information around them. I suggest everyone to print this and circulate to get the most from it.

Couple of years before, one of my maternal uncle, who came to know that I’m in the trap of Khalifa’s group, has gone through Khalifa’s translation and originally written this as a short article and relieved me from that trap out of Allah’s Mercy.

As the article was originally appeared only as a brief note, I developed it and elaborated it to the point ‘how it looks like now’. I worked for a long time to ensure that it not only warns the Muslim community to be careful about Khalifa’s tricky works but it also brings back the whole Khalifa’s group back to Islam, Insha Allah.

I have also discussed with my uncle, several times during the compilation of this short book, which helped me a lot. The reason for quoting only Quran as the source of reference throughout the book is because the actual targeted group is the deviant sect–Khalifa’s group.

In-Order to view the complete e-book-"Critical Evaluation of Rashad Khalifa with Quran-Alone" kindly visit: https://rashadkhalifafakemessenger.wordpress.com  [or] http://alquranaloneislam.blogspot.in

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Quote

I need your sincere support in cascading this book to all your appropriate contacts as it may wash-out my sins of preaching of deen-e-khalifa for few years, when I was in the trap of Khalifates.

Salaam Aleikum,

I don't think there would be that much support from us here, especially when we read this part from the book:

Quote

The deviant Shi’ism’s call has always been for the protection of the rights of Ahl al-Bait (the Prophet’s family) as a guise for excommunicating most of the Prophet’s companions, defaming his wives and consequently denying the information about the prophet which has conveyed by his companions.

 

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On 1/23/2016 at 7:29 PM, AlKhidr said:

Abu-Jafar Herz

You said these crazy statements:

"He also believes that Rashad Khalifa who immigrated from Egypt to the United States who started claiming he was a messenger of god"

You need to quite lying to the people.  I CHALLENGE you to quote me any where I said that I follow Rashad Khalifa???  I CHALLENGE you to quote me any where I said Rashad Khalifa is a rasuwl (messenger)???  You need to quite lying.  Is this how you debate by fabricating falsehood and slander against your opponents.  You need to read my previous posts in here where I answered or address this question.  I am not a follower of Rashad Khalifa and I reject his claims about him being a rasuwl (messenger).  Why don't you go and contact his organization and ask them if I am a member or not, they will tell you LAA (NO)!!!

You also said this:

"the person who created the concept of the 19 code"

First of all Rashad Khalifa did not create the mathematical code (19).  There are mathematical patterns in the Qur'aan based on the prime number 19 and this was done by Allah when he revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad of Arabia.  You need to get your facts straight.  Abu-Jafar Herz, you know better than this, what you are trying to do is reach the people with EMOTIONS-this is your tactic, rather than go toe-to-toe with me in the scriptures of Allah and prove your arguments with evidence which we all know (including your self) you cannot do.  You are not even close to being on my level and I consider my self to be one of the children of the slaves.

 

welcome back AlKhidr

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED: The links you posted to 'real' namaz have videos of Rashid Khalifa hencing proving the point you are his follower

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On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 0:47 PM, shiaman14 said:

welcome back AlKhidr

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED: The links you posted to 'real' namaz have videos of Rashid Khalifa hencing proving the point you are his follower

You said "challenge accepted" but you still have not found no quotes from me saying anything that you claim I said about Rashad Khalifa.  All you did was show part of a document addressing Salaat and Code 19 but no where on the document, it mentions Rashad Khalifa.  No where on the document you were able to quote me saying the things you claim I said.  The video that you saw, just about all Muslims that follow Qur'aan alone (who are not members of Rashad Khalifa's organization) use that video as a demonstration on how to do Salaat and again they don't follow Rashad Khalifa.  In addition to that video it does not say he is a Prophet, it does not say he is a Messenger.  Instead of trying to appeal to peoples emotions or persuade people by your twisted public opinion, why don't you contact Rashad Khalifa's organization and email them and ask them if Al Khidr is a member of their community or organization and I guarantee you they will say LAA (NO).  Gaius will tell you that just because a Muslim follow Qur'aan alone, or have recognized the mathematical code based on 19 does not mean they follow Rashad Khalifa.  What type of logic are you using.  Its like all Shi'ite Muslims do not put Ali's name in the Shahaada.  I can provide you with a tons of websites, links videos of people who follow Qur'aan alone, recognize the mathematical code 19 and DO NOT follow Rashad Khalifa.  Shiaman you need to learn how to do your homework because you have set your self up to be exposed.  YOU DON'T HAVE NO HAQQ IN YOUR MOUTH AND ITS SAD TO SEE YOU RESORT TO THESE LIES ALL BECAUSE YOU CANNOT INTELLECTUALLY REFUTE MY ARGUMENTS IN THIS POST NOR THE ARGUMENTS IN MY BOOK: SHIA CHALLENGING QUESTIONS that all can download on page one of this post.   

SHIAMAN14, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU FAILED AGAIN TO BE ABLE TO QUOTE ME IN THE THINGS YOU CLAIMED I SAID.  THE MASSES OF THE PEOPLE INCLUDING MY SELF IS STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO PROVE YOUR FALSEHOOD, LIES AND SLANDER THAT YOU CREATED ABOUT ME.  SHIAMAN14 YOU ARE NOT THE MOST CLEVEREST PERSON ON THE PLANET, WE ALL KNOW YOUR INTENTIONS IS TO TRY TO PURSUADE THE GULLIBLE PEOPLE WITH YOUR TWISTED PUBLIC OPINION WHICH WOULD GET THROWN OUT OF ANY CIVILIZED COURT IN A MATTER OF SECONDS.  YOU ARE A LAUGHING JOKE.

Edited by AlKhidr

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On 1/29/2016 at 11:21 PM, AlKhidr said:

You said "challenge accepted" but you still have not found no quotes from me saying anything that you claim I said about Rashad Khalifa.  All you did was show part of a document addressing Salaat and Code 19 but no where on the document, it mentions Rashad Khalifa.  No where on the document you were able to quote me saying the things you claim I said.  The video that you saw, just about all Muslims that follow Qur'aan alone (who are not members of Rashad Khalifa's organization) use that video as a demonstration on how to do Salaat and again they don't follow Rashad Khalifa.  In addition to that video it does not say he is a Prophet, it does not say he is a Messenger.  Instead of trying to appeal to peoples emotions or persuade people by your twisted public opinion, why don't you contact Rashad Khalifa's organization and email them and ask them if Al Khidr is a member of their community or organization and I guarantee you they will say LAA (NO).  Gaius will tell you that just because a Muslim follow Qur'aan alone, or have recognized the mathematical code based on 19 does not mean they follow Rashad Khalifa.  What type of logic are you using.  Its like all Shi'ite Muslims do not put Ali's name in the Shahaada.  I can provide you with a tons of websites, links videos of people who follow Qur'aan alone, recognize the mathematical code 19 and DO NOT follow Rashad Khalifa.  Shiaman you need to learn how to do your homework because you have set your self up to be exposed.  YOU DON'T HAVE NO HAQQ IN YOUR MOUTH AND ITS SAD TO SEE YOU RESORT TO THESE LIES ALL BECAUSE YOU CANNOT INTELLECTUALLY REFUTE MY ARGUMENTS IN THIS POST NOR THE ARGUMENTS IN MY BOOK: SHIA CHALLENGING QUESTIONS that all can download on page one of this post.   

SHIAMAN14, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU FAILED AGAIN TO BE ABLE TO QUOTE ME IN THE THINGS YOU CLAIMED I SAID.  THE MASSES OF THE PEOPLE INCLUDING MY SELF IS STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO PROVE YOUR FALSEHOOD, LIES AND SLANDER THAT YOU CREATED ABOUT ME.  SHIAMAN14 YOU ARE NOT THE MOST CLEVEREST PERSON ON THE PLANET, WE ALL KNOW YOUR INTENTIONS IS TO TRY TO PURSUADE THE GULLIBLE PEOPLE WITH YOUR TWISTED PUBLIC OPINION WHICH WOULD GET THROWN OUT OF ANY CIVILIZED COURT IN A MATTER OF SECONDS.  YOU ARE A LAUGHING JOKE.

I can't believe how retarded you are.

You post a video of Rashid Khalifa showing/teaching how to pray. You post a pdf that talks about the Code 19.

You want us to believe everything in those videos but at the same time you dont believe them. You are laughable.

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On 11/18/2015 at 3:20 AM, AlKhidr said:

Hadiyth were written 250 years AFTER Muhammad’s death, so the gap period after Muhammad’s death and before hadiyth were written, compiled was 250 years, that means Muslims within this gap period of 250 years was doing Salaat without hadiyths because they were not written at the time.  This is proof that they were doing Salaat and did not need the details of hadiyth in order to perform or do Salaat.  The knowledge of Salaat and the details of Salaat was not lost, Muslims of this 250 years gap period (after Muhammad’s death and before hadiyths were written, compiled) their generations salvations was not lost because they did not have hadiyth to explain Salaat, no not at all.  Again this was all by the will of Allah and they were observing Salaat without no hadiyths.

First of all, you really need to stop with the massive posts, typed in huge and multi-coloured fonts, replete with pictures, videos and weblinks. It makes you seem completely unhinged and makes reading, let alone interacting with, your posts very difficult.

Now, as to the actual content of your posts, there is much that could be said about your factual errors, as well errors in logic, but it's probably best to just focus on one issue at a time, since you find it hard enough as it is to stay focused.

With regards to the portion I have quoted, if you are going to critique something, then you really should probably make more effort to understand it correctly in the first place. It is absolutely false to claim that there was a 250 year gap period. Even Malik's Muwatta, which is hardly an obscure compilation of ahadith dates from less than 200 years after the death of the Prophet (s) (although I guess you wouldn't really know when the Prophet died since all those accounts aren't reliable according to you). This '250 year' figure that the likes of you keep throwing around is related to Bukhari, but by continuously referring to this collection as if it is the first book of ahadith, you are just revealing your ignorance.

That's for the factual part. As for the logical part, your post would have us believe that the original prayer of Ibrahim somehow survived completely intact for thousands of years in Mecca (and possibly parts of Africa), but then within less than 200 years got completely corrupted beyond all recognition by those people who actually possessed God's last revelation. It requires us to believe that the Prophet's own family weren't able to maintain the correct form of prayer, but a bunch of idol worshipers were able to do so for a much longer period of time.

Even more bizarrely, according to you guys, the Qur'an commands us to follow the Sunnah of Ibrahim without reference to any scripture, written records, or even a proper oral tradition, but apparently the Qur'an doesn't require us to follow even the basics of the Sunnah of Muhammad as recorded by the entire Muslim tradition.

So what was the purpose of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (s) again? To lay the seeds for a bunch of modernisers in the 20th and 21st century to rediscover the 'true' faith?

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

First of all, you really need to stop with the massive posts, typed in huge and multi-coloured fonts, replete with pictures, videos and weblinks. It makes you seem completely unhinged and makes reading, let alone interacting with, your posts very difficult.

Now, as to the actual content of your posts, there is much that could be said about your factual errors, as well errors in logic, but it's probably best to just focus on one issue at a time, since you find it hard enough as it is to stay focused.

With regards to the portion I have quoted, if you are going to critique something, then you really should probably make more effort to understand it correctly in the first place. It is absolutely false to claim that there was a 250 year gap period. Even Malik's Muwatta, which is hardly an obscure compilation of ahadith dates from less than 200 years after the death of the Prophet (s) (although I guess you wouldn't really know when the Prophet died since all those accounts aren't reliable according to you). This '250 year' figure that the likes of you keep throwing around is related to Bukhari, but by continuously referring to this collection as if it is the first book of ahadith, you are just revealing your ignorance.

That's for the factual part. As for the logical part, your post would have us believe that the original prayer of Ibrahim somehow survived completely intact for thousands of years in Mecca (and possibly parts of Africa), but then within less than 200 years got completely corrupted beyond all recognition by those people who actually possessed God's last revelation. It requires us to believe that the Prophet's own family weren't able to maintain the correct form of prayer, but a bunch of idol worshipers were able to do so for a much longer period of time.

Even more bizarrely, according to you guys, the Qur'an commands us to follow the Sunnah of Ibrahim without reference to any scripture, written records, or even a proper oral tradition, but apparently the Qur'an doesn't require us to follow even the basics of the Sunnah of Muhammad as recorded by the entire Muslim tradition.

So what was the purpose of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (s) again? To lay the seeds for a bunch of modernisers in the 20th and 21st century to rediscover the 'true' faith?

Haydar

"Now, as to the actual content of your posts, there is much that could be said about your factual errors, as well errors in logic, but it's probably best to just focus on one issue at a time, since you find it hard enough as it is to stay focused"

In my first post that I presented here which is: SHIA CHALLENGING QUESTIONS, all the shia muslims did was called me names, made snide remarks but when you look at the content of their responses, they lacked substance, they lacked the ability to go inside the Qur'aan to intellectually refute what I have presented.  What I'm trying to say is that they are only responding with EMOTION, EMPTY STATEMENTS, ASSUMPTION, BELIEF and this is not how you intellectually debate.  Now I opened up my second post: THE TRUE SHAHAADA and we are seeing the same thing from the Shia Muslims but even worse.  There is no Shia alive that can prove their man-made Shahada where they put "Ali" and "Muhammad" name in the Shahaada.  Lets look at you for example, you came here and presented your opinions about me you on a personal level just like the rest cannot go inside the Qur'aan and refute my arguments nor prove the Shia School of thought that I have challenged a long with many other people who has questioned the Shia sect teachings.

Now let me refute your logic here:

"That's for the factual part. As for the logical part, your post would have us believe that the original prayer of Ibrahim somehow survived completely intact for thousands of years in Mecca (and possibly parts of Africa), but then within less than 200 years got completely corrupted beyond all recognition by those people who actually possessed God's last revelation."

Of course the original Salaat that Prophet Muhammad followed from Milla Ibrahiym was preserved by Allah for the simple fact that Allah says that His Sunna is THE SAME for all His Messengers and WILL NEVER CHANGE:

Ch17v77%20size%2060.JPG

Ch48v23%20size%2065.JPG

You will actually believe that the 12 Khalifas are infallible but its hard for you to fathom the fact that Allah can preserve His revelation, Deen including Salaat???   What I have presented from the verses up above is evidence, proof Haydar that Allah's revelation, Deen or Way Of Life has been preserved by Allah Ta'ala.  You can take it or leave it alone but you cannot convince open minded people who are sincerely seeking truth that Allah does not have the ability to preserve His Deen (Way Of Life) which includes Salaat, the subject we are talking about.  Now of course out side of this, men, idol worshpers has attempted to corrupt the truth, the Deen by adding man-made innovations but that has nothing to do with Allah's ability to preserve His revelation, Deen, Sunna.  The problem the Shia and Sunni both has fabricated their man-made sunna by writing hadiyth books which they falsely associated to Rasuwl Allah hundreds of years AFTER his death and Allah has never mentioned nor backed nor told us to believe in your hadiyth books which you claim is the Sunna.  Haydar so lets quite dealing with EMPTY STATEMENTS, ASSUMPTIONS, UNVERIFIABLE DATA so here is what I'm going to do, I'm going to CHALLENGE you to produce just one verse in the Qur'aan where Allah has used the word "hadiyth" and told us the following because if you can prove this one point then it would automatically authenticate and prove your Shia hadiyth to be the true sunna of Al Islaam but if you cannot then that means beyond doubt that your Shia school of thought created by men of your Ulama back then is unfounded in Al Qur'aan.  Now lets see if you can meet this CHALLENGE below by produce just one verse in the Qur'aan that uses the word "hadiyth" to prove any one of these points to try to authenticate the Shia fabricated set of hadiyth books which you think is the Sunna of Islaam:

(1) We are suppose to believe in hadiyth or

(2) We are suppose to follow hadiyth or

(3) We will get guidance from hadiyth or

(4) Hadiyth was revealed or sent down (nazzala) to   Muhammad or

(5) Hadiyth is the sunna of Muhammad

????????????????????????????

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235032954-shia-challenging-questions/?do=findComment&comment=2847487

You have said this below:

"It requires us to believe that the Prophet's own family weren't able to maintain the correct form of prayer, but a bunch of idol worshipers were able to do so for a much longer period of time."

You should download my book: SHIA CHALLENGING QUESTIONS on the first page because I refuted this misconception or belief that many Shia Muslims uphold.  You see no where in the Qur'aan Allah says that Ahul Bayt will preserve the revelation of Allah.  This right her what I'm about to say is very very very important, you see Allah in the Qur'aan never COMMANDED, DIRECTED, INSTRUCTED Prophet Muhammad to follow no Deen, no religion or milla, no Sunna of Ahul Bayt and if Allah has done this then prove it in the Holy Qur'aan rather then present an EMPTY STATEMENT like that with no evidence.  Its easy to just come here and make EMPTY STATEMENTS but Muslims that manifest taqwa will need evidence from the Holy Qur'aan which you have failed to present.  Now let me further smash (refute) your logic that you are trying to use all because you as a Shia Muslim believe that Ahyul Bayt are infallible (which is another doctrine unfounded in the Qur'aan).  You see Allah has never instructed Muhammad to follow no Deen, no Sunna, no religion or milla from Ahyul Bayt.  Thus Prophet Muhammad was commanded, instructed, directed to follow MILLA IBRAHIYM (THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM):

Milla%20Ibrahiym%201%20Quraan%2016%20ver

Milla%20Ibrahiym%202%20Quraan%206%20vers

Milla%20Ibrahiym%203%20Quraan%204%20vers

This is why we have to deal with the facts, the evidence of the scriptures rather then just present EMPTY STATEMENTS, ASSUMPTIONS, BELIEFS.  Prophet Muhammad followed The Religion Of Abraham and not that of Ahul Bayt, this is something the Shia sect has fabricated to try to authenticate their man-made school of thought which again is unfounded in the Holy Qur'aan.  Now look at the verse below because Allah says that whoever forsake the Milla Ibrahiym (The Religion Of Abraham) has made a fool of himself and Allah says in this verse that He HAS CHOSEN Abraham in this Physical World and in the Hereafter, thus Allah has never said anything like this (in the Qur'aan) about Ali nor the other 11 Khalifas or Imams that the Shia sect worships:

Milla%20Ibrahiym%204%20Quraan%202%20vers

 

Now I have noticed that you have said this:

"Even more bizarrely, according to you guys, the Qur'an commands us to follow the Sunnah of Ibrahim without reference to any scripture, written records, or even a proper oral tradition, but apparently the Qur'an doesn't require us to follow even the basics of the Sunnah of Muhammad as recorded by the entire Muslim tradition."

It is clear that you don't understand what is MILLA IBRAHIYM.  If Allah told Prophet Muhammad to follow MILLA IBRAHIYM and Allah also said that all His Messengers followed His Sunna (Sunnat ul Allah) and the mere fact that Allah has revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad would let you know that our Prescribed Way Of Life (Al Islaam) or the Revelation of Allah (in the Qur'aan, not your hadiyth books among Shia and Sunni) is the same thing as MILLA IBRAHIYM and SUNNAT UL Allah (THE SUNNA OF Allah).  These are not different things, they are one and the same and this Way Of Life has been revealed and preserved by Allah in the Holy Qur'aan, not your fabricated man-made hadiyth books among the Shia and Sunni sect which I list below:

Shi’ite accept:

Kafi of Abu Ja'fa Muhammad

Man la Yastuhdirahul Fiqah of Shaikh Ali

Tahdhib of Shaikh abu Jafar Muhammad

Najhu’l Balaghah of Sayyid Radi

 

Sunni accept:

Muwatta of Malik ibn Ans

Jamu’us Sahih of Bukhari

Sahih of Muslim

Sunan of Abu Daoud Sulaiman

Jami of Tirmidhi

Kitabus Sunan of Muhammad ibn Yazid ibn Majah of Qazwani

 

You have said:

"So what was the purpose of the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad (s) again? To lay the seeds for a bunch of modernisers in the 20th and 21st century to rediscover the 'true' faith?"

The purpose of Allah sending Muhammad into this world was to deliver the Qur'aan and Muhammad himself told us that this was his sole mission which was to deliver the Message of Allah:

Qur'aan 42:48

Your sole mission is delivering the message

 

Qur'aan 16:82

your sole mission is the clear delivery (of the message).

 

Qur'aan 3:20

If they argue with you, then say: "I have peacefully submitted myself entirely to (the will and guidance of) Allah and so have those who follow me."  And say to those who received the scripture, as well as those who did not: "Do you accept Islaam as your religion?"  If they do accept Islaam, then they are rightly guided but if they turn away, then your sole mission is to deliver the message.  Allah is watching all His servants.

 

Now lastly, you have said this:

 

"First of all, you really need to stop with the massive posts, typed in huge and multi-coloured fonts, replete with pictures, videos and weblinks. It makes you seem completely unhinged and makes reading, let alone interacting with, your posts very difficult."

 

There are tons and tons of people in this forum that present information like this and you are not saying nothing to them, thus, the only reason why you are saying this is because the information that I'm bringing forth disturbs your belief system but no Muslims here who are sincerely seeking AL HAQQ are not complaining, they instead are taking the information for themselves and researching the information. 

 

Edited by AlKhidr

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You seem to enjoy repeating yourself. I'm sorry, but you really need to tone down your posting style if you want to have a proper discussion. There are some points that are worth discussing, but your manner of posting makes the idea of engaging in a protracted discussion unappealing. You also might want to spend a little less time on here proselyting for your sect, and more time understanding the beliefs of those that you wish to critique, because right now you come across as utterly clueless about anything other than your pet polemical arguments from the Qur'an.

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7 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

You seem to enjoy repeating yourself. I'm sorry, but you really need to tone down your posting style if you want to have a proper discussion. There are some points that are worth discussing, but your manner of posting makes the idea of engaging in a protracted discussion unappealing. You also might want to spend a little less time on here proselyting for your sect, and more time understanding the beliefs of those that you wish to critique, because right now you come across as utterly clueless about anything other than your pet polemical arguments from the Qur'an.

You said I keep repeating my self but are you away that you are asking me the same questions that were asked by others previously in this post?  Instead of asking me the same questions that others have asked, simply read and examine the information in this post.  I personally have not participated in this post in a long time.  The only reason why I'm responding because you have directed your questions to me.

Also you indicated that you don't like manner in which I am discussing the information but I would also advice you to look at how other people are saying things to me that are disrespectful starting on page one of this post but I don't see you making any comments about them.  Look at page one and see how the nature of the conversations develop.  Its easy for you to make an empty statement like this but proving it with evidence is another thing: "because right now you come across as utterly clueless about anything other than your pet polemical arguments from the Qur'an"

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12 hours ago, Qa'im said:

The 250 year thing is a great talking point, but unfortunately it's not true. Here are some of Islam's earliest books with their dates:

 

Kitab `Ali b. Abi Talib (c. 630s CE, the Imam's personal notebook, which included sayings of the Messenger and fiqh; parts of it have been narrated by the Imams and compiled in various books)

Mus`haf `Ali (c. 630s CE, the Imam's personal compilation of the Noble Qur'an)

Sahifa as-Sadiqa (c. 630s CE, written by `Abdullah b. `Amr b. al-`As, passed down through his family and incorporated into Ahmad b. Hanbal's Musnad)

Books of Ibn `Abbas (sometime between 632-687, probably after 660, his teachings survived mainly as oral ahadith)

Sahifa Hammam bin Munabbah (c. 660-680 CE, a short selection of Abu Hurayra's ahadith compiled by one of his students, incorporated into Sunni hadith books)

Kitab Sulaym b. Qays (probably c. 715-730 CE, written allegedly by a companion of the early Imams, anti-Umayyad, Shi`i political/historical document)

Siratu Rasulillah (c. 707 CE - original Medinan text. Now the only available copy is the one edited by Ibn Hisham in the 9th century CE)

Sahifa Sajjadiyya (c. 8th century - compilation of du`a's of Imam as-Sajjad (as) transmitted via Zaydi and Imami sources)

Muwatta' Malik b. Anas (c. 785 CE - basis of the Maliki madhhab, mostly fiqh and the traditions of the scholars of Medina)

Musannaf b. Abi Shaybah (c. late 8th century, early 9th century - Sunni fiqh, Iraq)

Musannaf `Abd ar-Razzaq (c. late 8th century, early 9th century - Sunni fiqh, shaykh of Bukhari. The book was lost, its contents were incorporated into Sunni hadith books, then the book was reconstructed quite recently I think)

The 400 Usool (c. 700-900 CE, the books of the companions of the Imams (as) and the transmitters of their hadiths. 16 usool survive - the rest have been incorporated into al-Kafi and other early Shi`i hadith collections)

 

And many others.

Hadiyth were written around 250 years AFTER the death of Muhammad, this is just an estimation.  However, lets assume that you can find some that are earlier, still that does not make them authentic, it still does not make them a source of Islaam.  The only way you can prove that they are a source of Islaam (no matter what year they were fabricated), you will have to produce a verse in the Qur'aan where Allah tells us to either believe in hadiyth or that hadiyth is guidance from our Creator or hadiyth is the Sunna of Rasuwl Allah.  Without that one verse no matter what year these books were written, they could never be a source of Islaam.  This is the missing link the Shia and Sunni do not have.  I have already proven in my other post: THE TRUE SHAHAADA that Prophet Muhammad followed one source (AL QUR'AAN):

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235035012-the-true-shahaada/?do=findComment&comment=2887400

Edited by AlKhidr

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On 2/20/2016 at 0:48 AM, AlKhidr said:

Hadiyth were written around 250 years AFTER the death of Muhammad, this is just an estimation.  However, lets assume that you can find some that are earlier, still that does not make them authentic, it still does not make them a source of Islaam.  The only way you can prove that they are a source of Islaam (no matter what year they were fabricated), you will have to produce a verse in the Qur'aan where Allah tells us to either believe in hadiyth or that hadiyth is guidance from our Creator or hadiyth is the Sunna of Rasuwl Allah.  Without that one verse no matter what year these books were written, they could never be a source of Islaam.  This is the missing link the Shia and Sunni do not have.  I have already proven in my other post: THE TRUE SHAHAADA that Prophet Muhammad followed one source (AL QUR'AAN):

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235035012-the-true-shahaada/?do=findComment&comment=2887400

Dont you also believe that Muhammad role was to only relay to Quran to the people. He was not meant to teach it?

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On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 10:59 AM, shiaman14 said:

Dont you also believe that Muhammad role was to only relay to Quran to the people. He was not meant to teach it?

The Qur'aan makes it clear that Muhammad's sole mission was to deliver the Message (Al Qur'aan) and in addition to this, the Qur'aan also makes it clear that it is Allah who is responsible for explaining the Qur'aan.  The Shia and Sunni conflicting hadiyths are not the words of Muhammad, they were fabricated around 250 years AFTER the death of Rasuwl Allah and this is why there is not one verse in the Qur'aan where Allah tells us to either believe in hadiyth or follow hadiyth or that hadiyth is the sunna of Rasuwl Allah. 

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هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.


[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.


[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:7]

As explained in the commentary of verse 2 of al Baqarah the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet. He knew the true meaning of every verse, or after him, it was Ali who claimed that he knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed.

Most of the verses of the Quran are clear and decisive. There is no ambiguity in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the fundamentals of the faith, such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can neither be changed nor modified. Any man of average intelligence can understand and follow them.

The mutashabihat are the verses which have been composed in subtle and profound diction and style. They carry implications other than the literal meanings, and therefore, are capable of giving different significations, like "The hand of Allah is on their hands" in verse 10 of al Fat-h. Verse 1 of al Hud says that the Quran is a book of clear and decisive verses. Verse 23 of al Zumar says that Allah has sent down the very best discourse as a book conformable in its repetition and consimilarity. Only the men of understanding who possess a higher level of intelligence contemplate and find out the meaningful implications of such verses. Average and ordinary minds cannot figure out or have knowledge of the real purport of such verses, and if they try this on their own, they are bewildered and go astray. As mentioned in the commentary of verse 1 of al Baqarah, the huruf muqatta-at are also meaningful but their subtle and profound meanings are known to Allah and His chosen representatives (Muhammad and ali Muhammad) only. Therefore, those who know the true purport of these symbolic letters occupy the highest position in the domain of knowledge and wisdom. In the well-known tradition of thaqalayn the Holy Prophet has clearly made known the fact that whoso remains attached with the Quran and his Ahl ul Bayt, after his departure from this world, will never go astray, because these two weighty authorities will never be separated from each other, and joined together, they shall meet the Holy Prophet at the spring of Kawthar; and "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate", said the Holy Prophet in order to guide the faithfuls so that, to have knowledge of the Quran, they must refer to Ali and his Ahl ul Bayt, who alone know the true meanings of the mutashabihat.

Zaygh means disease, perversity, evil, and wicked intention, the inclination to go against the truth and to blunder, revolt and go astray. Fitna means to create mischief, or to create difference of opinion and to mislead.

"None knows its interpretation except Allah and those (who are) firmly rooted in knowledge", renders null and void all attempts made by scholars to discover the true meanings of themutashabihat. The firmly rooted in knowledge are those whom Allah Himself gives the knowledge, as verse 49 of al Ankabut says: But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge. Therefore, the observation of the Ahmadi commentator that reading various passages in the light of each discover the true significance of ambiguous passages, is based upon his inclination to go out of the right course. The Christians also try in vain to assign divinity to Isa by calculating the numerical value of the haruf muqatta-at, and misinterpret the complex verses to suit their dubious theories.

How the complex verses can be interpreted is not mentioned in this verse, nor anywhere in the Quran, but it is clearly disclosed that besides Allah only those, endowed with divine knowledge, know the true meanings of the mutashabihat. The firmly rooted in knowledge are the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt, the thoroughly purified ones (Ahzab: 33), who possess the desired purity of heart and soul, essential for receiving and holding the truth in order to use it (Waqi-ah: 77 to 79) to do good to themselves and to others. It is obvious that there is no conceivable necessity of revealing complex verses or letter symbols if even the Holy Prophet, to whom the Quran was revealed, did not know their meanings. It is only a hypothetical inquiry, otherwise there is the clear mention of rasikhuna fil ilm (the firmly rooted in knowledge) in this verse, the first among whom is the Holy Prophet, and after him, as said earlier, his Ahlul Bayt are the custodians of his knowledge and wisdom, who alone are entitled to interpret every word of the Quran.

In reply to Anas bin Malik's query about rasikhuna fil ilm the Holy Prophet said:

"They are those whose hands do not do aught but that which is just, righteous and good; whose tongues do not utter aught but that which is true; whose hearts and minds are enlightened and rational; whose stomachs are free from that which is forbidden."

The ayah al tat-hir (Ahzab: 33) confirms that only the thoroughly purified Muhammad and ali Muhammad are the rasikhuna fil ilm. Verse 13 of Luqman says that polytheism (shirk) is the most grievous inequity, the worst type of impurity. It is a historical fact that all the companions of the Holy Prophet, before embracing Islam, for a long time in their lives, were idolworshippers. The Holy Prophet, Bibi Fatimah and Ali ibna abi Talib and their children were the only ones who were free from the impurity of polytheism right from the day they were born. All Muslims, in every age, add karamallahu wajhu (Allah graced and honoured his face above others) after the name of Ali, because he never worshipped any ghayrallah (other than Allah). The Holy Prophet pointed out the essential purity of body and soul in Ali, equal to his own purity, when he said:

"O Ali! Your flesh is my flesh, your blood is my blood. You and I are from one and the same divine light"

Verses 18 of Ali Imran, 162 of al Nisa, 49 of Ankabut, and 11 of al Mujadalah refer to those who have been divinely endowed with knowledge.

As ordinary human beings are unable to know the meanings of the mutashabihat, the divine mercy guides the sincere seekers of the truth to turn to the ahladh dhikr, the Holy Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt (see commentary of verse 43 of al Nahl and verse 7 of al Anbiya):

"So ask the people of dhikr (the reminder or the Quran) if you do not know."

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Nothing in the earth or in the heavens is hidden from Allah, the self-subsisting, because He is the author of the book of creation (the development of the embryo has been mentioned in the previous verse as an example). In this verse He says that the author of the book of creation is also the author of the book of legislation (the Quran).

The book of creation (the universe) contains miscellaneous signs. Some are clear. Some are intricate and perplexing. For example (in the book of creation) the function and the significance of every part of the human structure has been studied and defined except the "appendix". Now a rational student of the book of creation will say:

"As no part is without some significance, this also must have some meaning, though I have not yet understood it."

On the contrary a mischief-maker will mix up that which is known with that which is not known and deny both by saying:

"As no reason or significance is found in this part, therefore, there is no reason or significance in the whole."

Likewise in the book of legislation, some signs (verses) are clear and decisive (muhkam), and some have several possible meanings (mutashabih), therefore, the rational mind will try to understand the mutashabih (unclear) verses in the light of the muhkam (clear and decisive) verses, by proceeding from the known to the unknown or from the concrete to the abstract; but the perverse mind will judge that which is certainly precise and definite in the light of the complex so as to mislead people by dubious misinterpretations.

Verse 1 of al Hud says that all the verses of the book are well arranged and firmly established. The arrangement of the words in the verses and the verses in the surahs is so accurate and proper that they all form a consistent unity, though they were separately revealed. It implies that the Quran was already arranged and established before its revelation, which is confirmed by verse 105 of Bani Israil. In verse 23 of al Zumar, the book is presented as consistent, consimilar and conformable in its parts(mutashabihan). But in this verse mutashabihat refers to the meanings, the implications, the connotations and the denotations of the complex passages.

Muhtam (clear) and mutashabih (complex) are relative terms. What is unclear to some may be apparent and definite to others. There may be quite a few features and viewpoints inherent in certain ideas, or commands, or narrations. Studying them from a particular angle will make their meaning and purpose crystal clear but their clarity may turn into obscurity when they are viewed from another standpoint. At all events, the complex should be examined and interpreted in the light of that which is clear and decisive, or as explained by the Holy Prophet, or by those whose authority has been established by the Holy Prophet and the Quran (see pages 1 to 7, commentary of verses 6 and 7 of al Fatihah, and verses 2, 30 to 37 and 124 of al Baqarah). In the light of verses 16 to 19 of al Qiyamah, the divine agency collects, recites and interprets the Quran. As the book is a guidance for mankind, there should be no unintelligible or incomprehensible passage in it. There is none. As asserted by the Ahlul Bayt,rasikhuna fil ilm is conjuncted with Allah and yaquluna is an adverbial clause qualifying the state of knowledge, referring to rasikhun. In the Nahj al Balagha, Ali ibna abi Talib says that the rasikhuna fil ilm believe in the unknown in the light of the known. As explained in the commentary of verse 3 of al Baqarah the knowledge of the ghayb(unknown) is with the infinite, therefore, the awareness of the finite created beings, even if they are endowed with the divine insight, cannot be at par with the absolute wisdom of the ghayb ul mutlaq, the hayyul qayyum creator. All that which becomes (in obedience) effective, as soon as He wills, is knowable to man. A finite being can know as much as the infinite all-wise likes him to know and grow in knowledge, which implies that basically his knowledge was insufficient but he rises towards the level of perfection, with the help of divine endowment, on his own merits, to become aware of the meanings of all that which has been revealed in the book, because, if it is not so, such revelations (mutashabihat) would be unprofitable and frustrating. So what Imam Ali ibna abi Talib and Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir have said in this connection is true.

http://quran.al-islam.org/

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“ 8. The Qur’an claims several stages of its existence

 

(1) A pre-revealed existence with God in the Lawhe Mahfuz (Ch. LXXXV: v 22) (protected tablet) and in the Kitab-e-Maknun Ch. LVI: vs 77-79) (hidden book).

 

“Verily it is an honoured Qur’an, In a Book hidden, Toucheth it not save the purified ones.”

(Ch. LVI: vs 77-79)

 

(2) A revealed form taught to the Holy Prophet when he was created and given the power of expression.


 

“(God), the Beneficent, Taught He the Qur’an. He created man, He taught him Expression.”

(Ch: LV: vs 1-3).

 

And

 

(3) an arranged form revealed to the heart of the Holy Prophet in its totality on the esteemed night in the month of Ramadhan. (Ch. XLIV: vs 1-6 and Ch. XCVII: Al-Qadr).

 

These three stages refer to God’s teaching the Holy Prophet and acquainting him with the Qur’an.

 

(4) Fourth is the stage of the gradual revelation of the Qur’an; in this stage the revelation of the Qur’an part by part was meant for recitation to the people (Ch. XVII: v 106):

 

“And it is the Qur’an which We have apportioned it so that thou mayest recite it unto the people with deliberation (by degrees), and We have sent it down, gradually in portions.”

(Ch: XVII: v 106)

 

It was in this stage of recitation that the first five verses of Ch. XLVI (‘Alaq or Iqra) were revealed. The first chapter of the Qur’an named al- Fatihatul-Kitab (the Opening Chapter of the Holy Book, the Qur’an) was revealed for the recitation later. In this stage of revelation the circumstances would require quotation and recitation of some chapters or verses (from chapters) not in accordance with the order of the previous arrangement. A portion of one chapter would be recited earlier and the other portion would remain to be recited later on. In this interval few other chapters were revealed for recitation.

 

(5) Fifth is the stage of post-gradual revelation wherein the Qur’an was taught to be placed within the reach of Jinns and Ins (Jinns and human beings) as an everlasting guidance and challenging miracle. Post-gradual revelation begins in the last year of the Holy Prophet’s ministry. The Holy Prophet said that Gabriel used to place the Qur’an before him every year but this year he placed it twice before him as it was the Holy Prophet’s last year in this material world. It was approximately three months before the Holy Prophet’s repeated declaration:

 

“ I am leaving among you two precious things, the Book of God and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

 

It is obvious, then, that the arrangement of the post-gradual revelation should be in accordance with the order of the Qur’an or pre-gradual revelation because circumstances may require an earlier recitation of a portion which might be next in the order of the pre-revealed arrangement.

 

This fact is supported by the Qur’an

 

“Verily, on Us is the collection of it and the recital of it! (Ch. LXXV:v 17)

Also there are the traditions indicating that the Holy Prophet used to order the scribes to place the revealed verses of different rhythmical pitch in the relevant chapters; and the Qur’an was revised by Gabriel twice in the last year of the Prophet’s ministry. Therefore, the place and the date of revelation have no bearing on the order of arrangement of the Qur’an in post-gradual revelation. What we find written in the beginning of every chapter about the date and place of revelation ( whether revealed in Mecca or Medina) are not part of the Qur’an. People had marked these out for their reference. Thus, it is not correct to consider the present placing of the Madani Chapters before Makki and vice versa as a sign of disorder and lack of proper arrangement.”

 

Page #’s: 30-32

Book: Essence of The Holy Qur’an (The Eternal Light)

By: Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya

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9 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.


[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.


[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:7]

As explained in the commentary of verse 2 of al Baqarah the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet. He knew the true meaning of every verse, or after him, it was Ali who claimed that he knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed.

Salaam S.M.H.A

Notice that you said this:

"As explained in the commentary of verse 2 of al Baqarah the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet. He knew the true meaning of every verse, or after him, it was Ali who claimed that he knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed."

First of all the Qur'aan no where says that Ali after Prophet Muhammad " knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed". 

Now I need to correct a misunderstanding.  Prophet Muhammad is not the source of the teaching of the Qur'aan, Prophet Muhammad is not the source of the explanation of the Qur'aan.  Allah makes it very clear that He is the teacher of the Qur'aan, not Muhammad:

Qur'aan 55:1-3

1.  The Most Gracious

2.  TEACHER OF QUR'AAN

3.  Creator of the human being.

 

As you can see from reading this simple verse, its says that Allah is the teacher of the Qur'aan, not Muhammad, not Ali.

 

Now below is another verse which proves that Allah is the one who explains the Qur'aan, not Muhammad, not Ali

 

Qur'aan 75:16-19

16.  Do not move your tongue to hasten it.

17.  The responsibility of its collection and its arrangement into Qur’aan lies on Us.

18.  Once We recite it, you shall follow such a Qur’aan.

19.  The responsibility of explaining it lies again on Us.

 

Verse 19 says: "The responsibility of explaining it lies again on Us".  This verse makes it clear that Allah is the one who explains the Qur'aan, not Muhammad, not Ali.  This is how Prophet Muhammad got his knowledge of the Qur'aan and it was Allah who sent Muhammad into this world to deliver the Qur'aan so on that accord this is how Muhammad was able to understand the Qur'aan. 

 

Edited by AlKhidr

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19.  The responsibility of explaining it lies again on Us.

And then it is the duty of prophet Messenger to explain Qur'an to us:

We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. 16:44

and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

also:

Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. 2:151

Quote

First of all the Qur'aan no where says that Ali after Prophet Muhammad " knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed". 

Duh, and what does it even matter if its not mentioned in Qur'an? Does it make the claim false? Nope.

Quote

As you can see from reading this simple verse, its says that Allah is the teacher of the Qur'aan, not Muhammad, not Ali.

What does it make Muhammad (saws) then, when Allah (swt) say to him that teach them the book?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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4 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

And then it is the duty of prophet Messenger to explain Qur'an to us:

We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. 16:44

and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

also:

Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. 2:151

Duh, and what does it even matter if its not mentioned in Qur'an? Does it make the claim false? Nope.

What does it make Muhammad (saws) then, when Allah (swt) say to him that teach them the book?

I had stated the above verses to @AlKhidr way back when, but he conveniently chose to ignore it.

He believes the Prophet would merely the ayah as dictated by Jibrael and of course when the Muslims would ask for explanation, the Prophet would tell the Muslims to ask Allah. Makes perfect sense, right?

BTW, welcome back @AlKhidr

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1 hour ago, shiaman14 said:

I had stated the above verses to @AlKhidr way back when, but he conveniently chose to ignore it.

He believes the Prophet would merely the ayah as dictated by Jibrael and of course when the Muslims would ask for explanation, the Prophet would tell the Muslims to ask Allah. Makes perfect sense, right?

BTW, welcome back @AlKhidr

Of course, as long it goes along his desire and aqil.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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6 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

And then it is the duty of prophet Messenger to explain Qur'an to us:

We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought. 16:44

and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

also:

Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. 2:151

Duh, and what does it even matter if its not mentioned in Qur'an? Does it make the claim false? Nope.

What does it make Muhammad (saws) then, when Allah (swt) say to him that teach them the book?

Dhulfikar, it is clear you did not understand my point.  I have shown you the verses that says Allah is the teacher of the Qur'aan and He is the one who explains the Qur'aan, not Muhammad.  This right here went over your head and it also eliminates Prophet Muhammad from being the original source of the teachings of the Qur'aan and the explainer of the Qur'aan.  Also note you did not present nothing in the Qur'aan where Allah designated Ali as a teacher or khalifa of Islaam????  When Prophet Muhammad is teaching/explaining the Qur'aan, its Allah working through him and this is why he is a Prophet.  Note in the verse that you quoted 2:151-"who recites to you Our communications" notice that it says recites to you Our communication, this is where Prophet Muhammad is getting his information from which Allah Ta'ala.  The fact that Muhammad is not the original source behind this, eliminates your so-called Shia and  Sunni hadiyths that were fabricated around 250 years AFTER the death of Prophet Muhammad.  The fact that Allah is the teacher and explainer of the Qur'aan destroys your sect claim of those hadiyth books being Rasuwl Allah's words which they claim are supposed to be the interpretation and explaination of the Qur'aan and Islaam.  Now take a look at this verse which makes it clear that Prophet Muhammad was not speaking from his own personal self or desire:

Qur’aan 53:1-7 (Al Najm)

1.  As the stars fell away.

2.  Your friend (Muhammad) was not astray, nor was he deceived.

3.  Nor was he speaking out of a personal desire.

4.  It was divine inspiration.

5.  Dictated by the Most Powerful.

6.  Possessor of all authority.  From His Highest height.

7.  At the highest horizon.

 

This verse makes it clear beyond doubt that the Qur'aan was dictated to him by Allah and Muhammad was not speaking from his own self or personal desire and again this eliminates your hadiyth books.

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19 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Quote:

“ 8. The Qur’an claims several stages of its existence

 

(1) A pre-revealed existence with God in the Lawhe Mahfuz (Ch. LXXXV: v 22) (protected tablet) and in the Kitab-e-Maknun Ch. LVI: vs 77-79) (hidden book).

 

“Verily it is an honoured Qur’an, In a Book hidden, Toucheth it not save the purified ones.”

(Ch. LVI: vs 77-79)

 

(2) A revealed form taught to the Holy Prophet when he was created and given the power of expression.


 

“(God), the Beneficent, Taught He the Qur’an. He created man, He taught him Expression.”

(Ch: LV: vs 1-3).

 

And

 

(3) an arranged form revealed to the heart of the Holy Prophet in its totality on the esteemed night in the month of Ramadhan. (Ch. XLIV: vs 1-6 and Ch. XCVII: Al-Qadr).

 

These three stages refer to God’s teaching the Holy Prophet and acquainting him with the Qur’an.

 

(4) Fourth is the stage of the gradual revelation of the Qur’an; in this stage the revelation of the Qur’an part by part was meant for recitation to the people (Ch. XVII: v 106):

 

“And it is the Qur’an which We have apportioned it so that thou mayest recite it unto the people with deliberation (by degrees), and We have sent it down, gradually in portions.”

(Ch: XVII: v 106)

 

It was in this stage of recitation that the first five verses of Ch. XLVI (‘Alaq or Iqra) were revealed. The first chapter of the Qur’an named al- Fatihatul-Kitab (the Opening Chapter of the Holy Book, the Qur’an) was revealed for the recitation later. In this stage of revelation the circumstances would require quotation and recitation of some chapters or verses (from chapters) not in accordance with the order of the previous arrangement. A portion of one chapter would be recited earlier and the other portion would remain to be recited later on. In this interval few other chapters were revealed for recitation.

 

(5) Fifth is the stage of post-gradual revelation wherein the Qur’an was taught to be placed within the reach of Jinns and Ins (Jinns and human beings) as an everlasting guidance and challenging miracle. Post-gradual revelation begins in the last year of the Holy Prophet’s ministry. The Holy Prophet said that Gabriel used to place the Qur’an before him every year but this year he placed it twice before him as it was the Holy Prophet’s last year in this material world. It was approximately three months before the Holy Prophet’s repeated declaration:

 

“ I am leaving among you two precious things, the Book of God and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

 

It is obvious, then, that the arrangement of the post-gradual revelation should be in accordance with the order of the Qur’an or pre-gradual revelation because circumstances may require an earlier recitation of a portion which might be next in the order of the pre-revealed arrangement.

 

This fact is supported by the Qur’an

 

“Verily, on Us is the collection of it and the recital of it! (Ch. LXXV:v 17)

Also there are the traditions indicating that the Holy Prophet used to order the scribes to place the revealed verses of different rhythmical pitch in the relevant chapters; and the Qur’an was revised by Gabriel twice in the last year of the Prophet’s ministry. Therefore, the place and the date of revelation have no bearing on the order of arrangement of the Qur’an in post-gradual revelation. What we find written in the beginning of every chapter about the date and place of revelation ( whether revealed in Mecca or Medina) are not part of the Qur’an. People had marked these out for their reference. Thus, it is not correct to consider the present placing of the Madani Chapters before Makki and vice versa as a sign of disorder and lack of proper arrangement.”

 

Page #’s: 30-32

Book: Essence of The Holy Qur’an (The Eternal Light)

By: Ayatullah Agha Haji Mirza Mahdi Pooya

Salaam SMAH

I'm responding based on your request.  You have presented very good verses from the Qur'aan which actually supports my premise which is: Allah is the source behind the revealing, teaching, explaining, and compiling of the Qur'aan.  Allah created a system in the manner in which He revealed the Qur'aan and how he used the Angelic Beings and selected Muhammad to deliver this Message for all the peoples of the world.  Now after you presented an enlightening presentation, I noticed that you slipped this statement in:

“ I am leaving among you two precious things, the Book of God and my Ahl al-Bayt.”

There is no verse in the Qur'aan at all period where Allah says that He gave or is leaving us two things "the Book of Allah and my Al-Bayt".  This is where your man-made sectarian beliefs are being innovated in Islaam.  Allah made it very clear that He only revealed the Qur'aan to Prophet Muhammad and nothing else:

Qur'aan 6:19

Say, “What thing is greatest as a testimony?”  Say: “Allah is the Witness between me and you that this Qur’aan has been inspired to me so that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.  Do you really bear witness that there are other gods besides Allah?”  Say: “I do not bear witness.”  Say: “He is only One Creator, and indeed, I am free of what you associate (with Him).”

 

PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS ONLY GIVEN ONE KITAAB AND NOTHING ELSE WHICH IS THE HOLY QUR'AAN AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD TOLD US AS REVEALED BY Allah IN THE QUR'AAN AND NOT YOUR MAN-MADE HADIYTHS THAT HE ONLY FOLLOWS THE QUR'AAN AND THAT HE WOULD NEVER ALTER OR CHANGE IT.  AND IN ADDITION TO THIS, PROPHET MUHAMMAD WAS NEVER INSTRUCTED, COMMANDED BY Allah TO FOLLOW ALULBAYT; Allah INSTRUCTED, COMMANDED PROPHET MUHAMMAD TO FOLLOW MILLA IBRAHIYM (THE RELIGION OF ABRAHAM):

Milla%20Ibrahiym%201%20Quraan%2016%20ver

 

Milla%20Ibrahiym%202%20Quraan%206%20vers

Edited by AlKhidr

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Dhulfikar, it is clear you did not understand my point.  I have shown you the verses that says Allah is the teacher of the Qur'aan and He is the one who explains the Qur'aan, not Muhammad. 

No, I did understand your point. And I wanted to show you one very clear point, that one of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) duty was to explain us and teach us the Qur'an. What Prophet teaches and explain us is what Allah (swt) teaches and explain to us. And it follows that the first revelations and explanations to us manifest from the Prophet.

There is nothing benefit in the Messenger who only reveal without explaining what he was revealing. But why the Qur'an is needed to be explained by the Prophet, if it was self explanatory? Simple, because anyone could interpret the Qur'an and thinks that God is explaining it to him.
 

Quote

Also note you did not present nothing in the Qur'aan where Allah designated Ali as a teacher or khalifa of Islaam????

Insha'Allah Allah [swt] will guide you to see it one day.
 

Quote

This verse makes it clear beyond doubt that the Qur'aan was dictated to him by Allah and Muhammad was not speaking from his own self or personal desire and again this eliminates your hadiyth books.

Lol what? How? Actually it show us that it is your personal desire and Aqil that interpreter these Qur'an verses by your standards and understanding.

There is absolute nothing that such a verses even indicates any elimination of narrations. Actually the Qur'an verses indicates that it is the duty of the Muslims to Obey the Messenger, follow what he is saying and do what he is doing. This is exactly what is definition of Sunnah of the Prophet.

Quote

Say: “Allah is the Witness between me and you that this Qur’aan has been inspired to me so that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.

How in the earth you come to conclusion from this verse, that the only thing that was manifested from God is only the Qur'an? 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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2 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

No, I did understand your point. And I wanted to show you one very clear point, that one of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) duty was to explain us and teach us the Qur'an. What Prophet teaches and explain us is what Allah (swt) teaches and explain to us. And it follows that the first revelations and explanations to us manifest from the Prophet.

There is nothing benefit in the Messenger who only reveal without explaining what he was revealing. But why the Qur'an is needed to be explained by the Prophet, if it was self explanatory? Simple, because anyone could interpret the Qur'an and thinks that God is explaining it to him.
 

Insha'Allah Allah [swt] will guide you to see it one day.
 

Lol what? How? Actually it show us that it is your personal desire and Aqil that interpreter these Qur'an verses by your standards and understanding.

There is absolute nothing that such a verses even indicates any elimination of narrations. Actually the Qur'an verses indicates that it is the duty of the Muslims to Obey the Messenger, follow what he is saying and do what he is doing. This is exactly what is definition of Sunnah of the Prophet.

How in the earth you come to conclusion from this verse, that the only thing that was manifested from God is only the Qur'an? 

Dhulfikar you said:

"No, I did understand your point. And I wanted to show you one very clear point, that one of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) duty was to explain us and teach us the Qur'an. What Prophet teaches and explain us is what Allah (swt) teaches and explain to us. And it follows that the first revelations and explanations to us manifest from the Prophet."

Just to be clear it was Allah by way of the Angelic Being Gabriel who taught Prophet Muhammad the meaning, explaination of the Qur'aan so Prophet Muhammad was not operating on his own accord and I have clearly proven this.  To make it simple when Muhammad explains or teach, the source is from Allah, not Muhammad himself and again the verses that I presented proves this beyond doubt; hadiyth followers such as your self cannot prove that Muhammad is the source which eliminates your fabricated hadiyth books.  Prophet Muhammad was forbidden to go outside of the revelation of the Qur'aan which further eliminates your fabricated hadiyth books which is a second source that your sect claims is part of Islaam:

Qur’aan 69:43-47

43.  (This is) a Messenger sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.

44.  And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,

45.  We should certainly seize him by his right hand,

46.  And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:

47.  Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).

You said this right here:

"There is absolute nothing that such a verses even indicates any elimination of narrations."

Lets cut corners and get straight to the point.  I CHALLENGE you to produce just one verse in the Qur'aan where Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and tells us to either believe in hadiyth or follow hadiyth or that we will get guidance from hadiyth or that hadiyth is the sunna of Muhammad.  I have presented this CHALLENGE several times in this post and no one in here has been able to meet it head on.  So lets cut the chase and all this shuffling around and how about YOU just produce one verse in the Qur'aan to prove this!!!!

Also when I quoted Qur'aan 6:19 your response was "How in the earth you come to conclusion from this verse, that the only thing that was manifested from God is only the Qur'an?".  It is very simple when you read that verse the only kitaab given to Rasuwl Allah was the Qur'aan.  That verse did not say "Qur'aan and hadiyth" or "Qur'aan and Sunna" or "Qur'aan and Sunna from Alul Bayt".  Now I have CHALLENGED you up above to prove that hadiyth is backed by Allah so I will be sitting here waiting....

 

Edited by AlKhidr

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[Pickthal 97:1] Lo! We revealed it on the Night of Predestination.
[Pickthal 97:2] Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Night of Power is!
[Pickthal 97:3] The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
[Pickthal 97:4] The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
[Pickthal 97:5] (The night is) Peace until the rising of the dawn.

What was Revealed?

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Just to be clear it was Allah by way of the Angelic Being Gabriel who taught Prophet Muhammad the meaning, explaination of the Qur'aan so Prophet Muhammad was not operating on his own accord and I have clearly proven this.  To make it simple when Muhammad explains or teach, the source is from Allah, not Muhammad himself and again the verses that I presented proves this beyond doubt; hadiyth followers such as your self cannot prove that Muhammad is the source which eliminates your fabricated hadiyth books. 

Of course he is not operating by his own accord. His saying, teaching, explanations is from Allah, no one is denying it!

Quote

To make it simple when Muhammad explains or teach, the source is from Allah, not Muhammad himself

Of course it is from Allah (swt).

Quote

hadiyth followers such as your self cannot prove that Muhammad is the source which eliminates your fabricated hadiyth books. 

How it is so hard for you to understand, that the first teaching and explanations of any verses that is manifest to us (We, the non-messenger people) was from the Prophet? It was Allah (swt) who inspired the messenger the explanations of what was revealed. And it was us who listened its explanations from the Messenger.

Quote

Lets cut corners and get straight to the point.  I CHALLENGE you to produce just one verse in the Qur'aan where Allah uses the word "hadiyth" and tells us to either believe in hadiyth or follow hadiyth or that we will get guidance from hadiyth or that hadiyth is the sunna of Muhammad.  I have presented this CHALLENGE several times in this post and no one in here has been able to meet it head on.  So lets cut the chase and all this shuffling around and how about YOU just produce one verse in the Qur'aan to prove this!!!!

It is pointless challenge or claim, because it does not even give any benefit or logical conclusion why we should or not take any narrations. Also the whole claim is based on your demands and thinking that if Allah (swt) want us follow the hadith, it must be mentioned explicitly in Qur'an, which many Quranist make the same mistake, giving demands to God.
 
Do you even understand what is the point of the hadith? It is a piece of evidence about Prophet Muhammad (saws) sayings, teaching, acting etc. These attributes are commanded by the Qur'an to be followed. The Prophet did not say anything to their companions, DO NOT write down my teaching/explanation and my acts and sayings. How do you think the first companions at that time passed the information about the prophet teaching to next generation? Yeah, trough narration.

Quote

Also when I quoted Qur'aan 6:19 your response was "How in the earth you come to conclusion from this verse, that the only thing that was manifested from God is only the Qur'an?".  It is very simple when you read that verse the only kitaab given to Rasuwl Allah was the Qur'aan. 

How do you come to conclusion from this verse that whatever was inspired by Allah (swt) is founded only from the Qur'an? Could Allah (swt) inspire something to Prophet that actually is not manifested in Qur'an?

Let use this logic. First we have this verse:

Nor was he speaking out of a personal desire.

Then we read these verses:

And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns – it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveller – so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you – take; and what he has forbidden you – refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty. [Quran 59:7]

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. [Quran 4:65]

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- [Quran 62:2]

So the Messenger get inspiration from Allah {swt} to instruct wisdom (Notice, different from Scripture!) to people or give person x something, or is judge between all disputes is recorded in Qur'an? No?. So Qur'an is not the only inspiration the prophet can get.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Is it me, or others recognize the similarities between the Tawassul/Waseela/Dua argument and Qu'ran only argument.

It seems like the opposite is been projected as our real beliefs on both arguments.

Even a Shia child knows, that Allah[swt] is the Creator and everything living and nonliving is created. Allah[awj] is the original Source/point of return. (Qur’an 1:5). But somehow, a convoluted argument is present using words/terminology to brand us, as taking others an original source in ascent and descent issues. Whereas in both cases the point of origin and return is Allah[awj] path [ordained by Allah[awj] Himself] we take is questioned and conveniently presented as, “whatever new the derivative of the original i.e the Terminology/Branding term/flavour of the age is”.

 

Learning from the past.

In the time of Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(awj)(Proof of Allah(awj), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(as).

“Khawarij raised the slogan "rule of Allah" and said that Ali Ibn Abi Talib should not be the ruler. They used to say, لاٰحُکْمَ اِلاَّللّٰہ‘ - Governing is the right of God only. In response Commander of the Faithful used to say, 5کَلَمِۃُ حَقٍّ يُرٰادُ بِھَاالْبٰاطِل - What they are saying is correct but their purpose is evil.

They are right and the real ruler is God. The One who defines the commandments and holds the reins of all affairs of life is God. Rule and law belong to God but who is going to execute the law? Are you saying that no one other than God should implement the law? In response Imam Ali said, لاٰ بُدَّلِلنّا سِ مِنْ اَميرٍ - For a human society there is a need for a ruler.”

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