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firefly

Is Suicide Allowed Under Specific Circumstances?

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I know, I'm not a professional I don't know what someone is supposed to say here as each victim is different in some sense. Some can forget, others not. Others don't even have to make any effort as their mind blurries everything and you simply have weird gaps, which for some reason you remember very well but then everything "goes black".

Any victim would really want to forget, it's a blessing. Or overcome it with much effort. I know you can't tell them simply to overcome it, but that should be the goal, not suicide.

As a side note, I wouldn't judge someone who suicides. For sure, those people do it because they are suffering a lot.

Edited by Bakir

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Einstein, I'm not saying there isnt such a situation, I'm holding a standpoint.

 

now, we're getting somewhere. you've conceded that there are situations which justify suicide. i just have a couple of questions to demonstrate my standpoint;

 

1- who has the ability or the means to know exactly what another person is feeling, and to determine who meats the requirements of a justified suicide, and who doesn't? i maintain that the only one who knows exactly what someone is feeling, is the person himself.

 

2- or perhaps your position is that everyone should be denied, in order to not open that door for everyone... the ones who truly qualify are merely collateral damage.

Edited by Einstein

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of denying any free individual choice.

We can understand better or worse what we feel, but when suiciding, someone also has a projection towards life that isn't by itself natural (in the sense that no living creature suicides except for us, and under very hard circumstances). Such projection is not about us but about our circumstances, and that is something we may not understand very well. The question would be: who can understand such circumstances and label life as impossible for such person? In the second hand, who can verify such circumstances are unavoidable nor reparable?

Suicide is commonly done under a subjective (and non-factual) view on our circumstances. Indeed, there are times the harm is not reparable (as the loss of a loved one), but our feelings may change with time.

Thus, my standpoint focus on the struggle and fight, regardless of the apparent lack of meaning on keeping alive. It is not a standpoint against the freedom of choice to suicide. I can't care less about that.

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I think one of the classic examples is: if you were going to be tortured to give up your friends' safe hiding place by to evil folks , would you take your own life to save them? Still think that falls under sacrifice. Trying to save someone from drowning, etc...you aren't intending to die. It just happens. You'd have to be more intentional in my case. But it was not as if you had despaired of life and wouldn't live if you could find a way.

Here one of the issues is assisted suicide " dying with dignity" for the terminally ill. You supposedly have to go through quite a bit to get it medically approved. But there are flaws in the system. I have sympathy with this because there is usually no " good" other outcome for the patient and many feel they and their families are going through too much pain and suffering...and that they are a burden to the families.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of denying any free individual choice.

We can understand better or worse what we feel, but when suiciding, someone also has a projection towards life that isn't by itself natural (in the sense that no living creature suicides except for us, and under very hard circumstances). Such projection is not about us but about our circumstances, and that is something we may not understand very well. The question would be: who can understand such circumstances and label life as impossible for such person? In the second hand, who can verify such circumstances are unavoidable nor reparable?

Suicide is commonly done under a subjective (and non-factual) view on our circumstances. Indeed, there are times the harm is not reparable (as the loss of a loved one), but our feelings may change with time.

Thus, my standpoint focus on the struggle and fight, regardless of the apparent lack of meaning on keeping alive. It is not a standpoint against the freedom of choice to suicide. I can't care less about that.

 

i respect your position. i really do; but the issue at hand isn't what my position is, or yours. it's the position of the shia sect in general. based on this logical law: "إنّ التكليف بما لا يطاق أمر قبيح عقلا" roughly translated it means "placing undue responsibility/obligation is logically outrageous", every rule in jurisprudence would have exceptions, even suicide. so it's ultimately a matter of how exceptions are determined, and by whom.

 

 

Here one of the issues is assisted suicide " dying with dignity" for the terminally ill. You supposedly have to go through quite a bit to get it medically approved. But there are flaws in the system. I have sympathy with this because there is usually no " good" other outcome for the patient and many feel they and their families are going through too much pain and suffering...and that they are a burden to the families.

 

the dutch have assisted suicide for depressed people.

Edited by Einstein

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of denying any free individual choice.

We can understand better or worse what we feel, but when suiciding, someone also has a projection towards life that isn't by itself natural (in the sense that no living creature suicides except for us, and under very hard circumstances). Such projection is not about us but about our circumstances, and that is something we may not understand very well. The question would be: who can understand such circumstances and label life as impossible for such person? In the second hand, who can verify such circumstances are unavoidable nor reparable?

Suicide is commonly done under a subjective (and non-factual) view on our circumstances. Indeed, there are times the harm is not reparable (as the loss of a loved one), but our feelings may change with time.

Thus, my standpoint focus on the struggle and fight, regardless of the apparent lack of meaning on keeping alive. It is not a standpoint against the freedom of choice to suicide. I can't care less about that.

Because we are talking on a muslim forum and from an Islamic point of view. I will take into an example of a practicing single/ married muslim lady who would have to face such a situation such as gang rape, and the possibility if being killed later.( very common scenario in India and Pakistan )

For most practicing muslim ladies this situation is not repairable.She will be a living corpse . Leave alone forget . She will not be able to think or even think straight , and be haunted with flashes from time to time

.In a situation obvious for a woman to be gang raped and later maybe be killed or fully disfigured there is no chance to fight it off . You either be ready to be brutally raped , and the rest maybe you live maybe killed brutally.

These things are split second decisions , there is no long process of thinking. You either kill yourself or just wait to be both humiliated and disfigured and killed.

We had a very interesting discussion with our teacher.( not about suicide )

One was about acid attacks. My teacher pointed out something very interesting . He said the consequences of an acid attack attempt on a woman differs alot than from a man in general.

The rule for an eye for an eye is simply impossible to carry. Because a woman whose beauty is also her God given asset is taken from her for life, her probability to get married would be absolutely nil, in comparison to a man. Plus the factor of a woman being a more sentimental being in comparison to a man.

Normally a man is more accepted with such disfigurement in comparison to woman and a mans probability to get married is still more in comparison to female. ( The beautiful movie pay forward acted by kevin spacy )

Hence the real punishment of the attacker is in the here after ( if he is not forgiven by the victim ) that he feel each and every ounce of anger , sorrow , frustration / madness that the woman lived every single day of her life .( again depending on personality strong / fragile )

If her act of being raped just to avoid suicide would be not be counted as sin than her killing herself in such dire situation will not entail in sin either .

God knows peoples intentions and situations alot better, if done out of extreme desperation.

Probably we never will be able to realize the extent of horror the surviver goes thru.

Edited by tendersoul

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On 15 October 2015 at 2:24 PM, firefly said:

This is going to sound stupid but

Is suicide allowed under specific circumstances?

I know it is haram but maybe under dire circumstances?

Is it mentioned anywhere in islam that it is allowed like what if the only way to avoid some sin or unpleasant act which you are being forced into which you can do nothing else about, is to die- will it be justified?

Just wondering

Let me change this. The only way out is not death. I can fight and I will to live the way I believe but I will have to go through verbal abuse and probably even physical abuse. What if I do not want to go through both of these abuse even if it is for what most or all people might think is for trivial matters. It is not trivial for me.

What if I want to kill myself because if I live I will fight and have to go through that abuse and if I die I won't have to go through all that. 

The thing is I have gone through a mental condition for six years it still is there a little and now I am just mentally exhausted and don't want anymore of it or anything else. 

If I ask God to forgive me for my step and kill myself will he understand at all? Will he forgive me? I have been crying for hours and days just thinking about how I might have to fight. I am just done. I don't want to go through any more of this. 

Is there any verse or thing I can read or do before committing suicide so God will forgive me for my action? 

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5 hours ago, firefly said:

Let me change this. The only way out is not death. I can fight and I will to live the way I believe but I will have to go through verbal abuse and probably even physical abuse. What if I do not want to go through both of these abuse even if it is for what most or all people might think is for trivial matters. It is not trivial for me.

What if I want to kill myself because if I live I will fight and have to go through that abuse and if I die I won't have to go through all that. 

The thing is I have gone through a mental condition for six years it still is there a little and now I am just mentally exhausted and don't want anymore of it or anything else. 

If I ask God to forgive me for my step and kill myself will he understand at all? Will he forgive me? I have been crying for hours and days just thinking about how I might have to fight. I am just done. I don't want to go through any more of this. 

Is there any verse or thing I can read or do before committing suicide so God will forgive me for my action? 

I am just going to suggest duas like ziyarat-e-aashura, and anti-depressant medicines. If you have been dealing with this for many years, you have probably tried all these things. Is it possible for you to go for ziarat? Can you listen to majlis online? Crying in majlis helps even if you are crying about your own problems. It also helps to give sadqa. There are just so many duas online. Try reading them. Please try all these things before trying to commit suicide. 

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9 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

I am just going to suggest duas like ziyarat-e-aashura, and anti-depressant medicines. If you have been dealing with this for many years, you have probably tried all these things. Is it possible for you to go for ziarat? Can you listen to majlis online? Crying in majlis helps even if you are crying about your own problems. It also helps to give sadqa. There are just so many duas online. Try reading them. Please try all these things before trying to commit suicide. 

 i dont want suggestions or opinions. i want facts. is suicide ok in certain circumstances like murder is ok in some. is there any dua supplication or deed  to get God to excuse suicide. thatswhat i want to know. 

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On 20/10/2015 at 4:08 AM, Bakir said:

If you have ever overcame a tough depression in which you have suffered from very real (and deadly scary) suicidal thoughts, you would be a bit less "progressive" as you call it. People who face such thoughts are very sure, in the very moment they have those thoughts, that they truly have no way to escape the terrible fate awaiting them. When probably, most likely, there is a way out. Telling this as I have seen my own brother falling from a height of 10 meters. He could survive and now he's doing much better. Problems are problems and there are solutions we can search for instead of surrendering.

There is nothing progressive in death, but in life.

i dont want stupid lectures or sympathy. just facts and not sayings from mauwis or seetanis. 

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On 4/12/2016 at 6:39 PM, firefly said:

i dont want stupid lectures or sympathy. just facts and not sayings from mauwis or seetanis. 

Assalamu Alaykum firefly,

I'm not sure whether you followed up on 4:29 aforementioned, but the fact is as stated in the Quran:  And do not kill yourselves [or one another].

I appreciate that you are not interested in additional advice or sympathy, but if I may, can I offer you some things to think about? Firstly, suicide is not as simple as it seems - depending on the method you choose, it can be very painful and lengthy, or messy (which is important if you are considerate of how your family will be affected by the sight of your body if you choose to use a gun, cutting, jumping off a building, or anything involving damaging your body gruesomely). One kid from my area a couple of years back drove his car full speed ahead into bushes and trees - a helicopter was required to retrieve his mangled body from the scene. It left the family and his friends with a pretty horrific image in their minds. Pills and overdosing are painful and death is not instantaneous. Drowning is said to be very painful too. Starving yourself is not instantaneous either, obviously, and say you changed your mind later on, you would have possibly damaged your organs.

I am not talking from the experience of committing suicide, I do admit I am not a ghost...

However, I have been through some dark times (as we all have) and unfortunately I lacked the willpower at the time to be focusing on progressing myself and was more motivated towards destruction - so I researched this sort of thing, and so I've just briefly given you some things to consider.

I know you probably are just over advice and think people just have pity and want to feel better by saying a kind word or a word of caution - but honestly I don't even know you and I do care about you, because you're a human being (I assume) on this planet and you have as much a right to be here as I do, and I just pray that you will push through the dark times even if you have to be emo for a while and walk around like a zombie, or keep to yourself like a hermit. Do you like to read books? Listen to Quran? Go for short walks? Write? Have anyone in your life that you can trust to talk to? Taking medication consistently? Seeing a psychiatrist/psychologist?

'Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by [Edited Out]s.' - William Gibson (please excuse the language, it's part of the quote)

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On 4/12/2016 at 6:39 PM, firefly said:

i dont want stupid lectures or sympathy. just facts and not sayings from mauwis or seetanis. 

& I know you might have been told this already, but honestly, if you immerse yourself into the stories of Ahlul Bayt and appreciate how many tribulations those esteemed men and women endured, you will surely look upon every struggle in your life as manageable, and even miniscule, Insha Allah.

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