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diyaa110

Why Must A God Be Just ?

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4 hours ago, Einstein said:

it doesn't matter how you or i know something. what does matter, however, is the general understanding and definition of the word "knowledge". i argue that our understanding of  factual "knowledge" is that it must conform to reality, and not reality conforming to our imagination. all of existence is essentially nothing more than god's imagination/dream being realized (unfolding).

Even I say that knowledge "corresponds" to reality.  But you think that reality is primarily the world while I think that reality is primarily and only God's Being!  What I am saying is that what defines reality is God's very Being. The principiality of reality is God Himself (nothing else).  According to you, reality is not defined by God but Is defined by God + Everything else.  So reality, according to you, encompasses God and creation.  I, on the other hand, would say that if God were to be "part" of reality rather than reality itself, then He would be limited since that would make Him share in the same attribute of creation, namely "the attribute of being part of reality".  Reality belongs exclusively to God and to no one else.   So when you look at yourself, and a tree and then think of God and say, "God, the tree and I are equally real" then that is called "associating partners with God".  You should rather say, "the tree and I" are real only to the extent that the two correspond to God's Being.  And they DO correspond to God's Being (as the sole reality) otherwise they (the tree and I) wouldn't exist at all!  

Edited by eThErEaL

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21 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Even I say that knowledge "corresponds" to reality.  But you think that reality is primarily the world while I think that reality is primarily and only God's Being!  What I am saying is that what defines reality is God's very Being. The principiality of reality is God Himself (nothing else).  According to you, reality is not defined by God but Is defined by God + Everything else.  So reality, according to you, encompasses God and creation.  I, on the other hand, would say that if God were to be "part" of reality rather than reality itself, then He would be limited since that would make Him share in the same attribute of creation, namely "the attribute of being part of reality".  Reality belongs exclusively to God and to no one else.   So when you look at yourself, and a tree and then think of God and say, "God, the tree and I are equally real" then that is called "associating partners with God".  You should rather say, "the tree and I" are real only to the extent that the two correspond to God's Being.  And they DO correspond to God's Being (as the sole reality) otherwise they (the tree and I) wouldn't exist at all!  

this would just mean god "knows" himself. big deal! lol

 

another problem is that this makes us a part of god, which would mean that god has parts (even if only conceptual), rendering him multiple.

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3 hours ago, Einstein said:

this would just mean god "knows" himself. big deal! lol

 

another problem is that this makes us a part of god, which would mean that god has parts (even if only conceptual), rendering him multiple.

whether it is a big deal to you or not is secondary (because many people who have a mystical vocation do find this of significance when it comes to realizing that their true Self is God and that only God is the Objective Truth.  The point is whether or not you agree with the reasoning I am giving you, not whether you personally find it a big deal or not.  

 

As for us being part of God, NO. God or Ultimate Reality has no parts because since God is reality itself and since nothing but reality can be real then what is there to make distinction within reality?  There must be something other than reality to make a distinction within reality itself.  Now, I proved this logically.  What is needed is to realize this in ourselves through the Sufi path inshallah.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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4 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

As for us being part of God, NO. God or Ultimate Reality has no parts because since God is reality itself and since nothing but reality can be real then what is there to make distinction within reality?  There must be something other than reality to make a distinction within reality itself.  Now, I proved this logically.  What is needed is to realize this in ourselves through the Sufi path inshallah.  

i disagree with this. something needn't be outside of reality to make the distinction. as long as a distinction of any kind, and from anywhere, and by anyone/anything, is made, it should suffice.

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6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

i disagree with this. something needn't be outside of reality to make the distinction. as long as a distinction of any kind, and from anywhere, and by anyone/anything, is made, it should suffice.

Reality itself is One. If we assume there are two realities then both of them would be one reality.  Reality itself cannot be distinguished like for example how a tree has defining boundary lines (it can be distinguished and therefore set apart from those things which are not the tree). Reality itself cannot be distinguished and set apart!  What besides reality can it possibly be set apart from? Nothing!  So reality itself is One and Indistinguishable.  Agree so far? 

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On Sunday, November 29, 2015 7:00:57, eThErEaL said:

Reality itself is One. If we assume there are two realities then both of them would be one reality.  Reality itself cannot be distinguished like for example how a tree has defining boundary lines (it can be distinguished and therefore set apart from those things which are not the tree). Reality itself cannot be distinguished and set apart!  What besides reality can it possibly be set apart from? Nothing!  So reality itself is One and Indistinguishable.  Agree so far? 

it can't be distinguished from other independent or external realities, but this same reality seems to be comprised of many different mini-realities, (things, or sub-realities if you will) within it.

Edited by Einstein

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50 minutes ago, Einstein said:

it can't be distinguished from other independent or external realities, but this same reality seems to be comprised of many different mini-realities, (things, or sub-realities if you will) within it.

so we have hierarchy of realities but not parts.  In other words, some things are simply more real than other things.  Reality is like light in that it can be diffused to different degrees (some more intense than others) and this varied diffusion will result in different colors of light.  Light is still one simple reality whether blue or green or yellow.  Everything around you is nothing but light.  And yet this one substance (called light) appears as tree, dog, house, car, person, bed, table (with all its different colors and shades).  This light is diffused in so many different ways while retaining one simple substance.  Light as such is not visible, it is blinding.  You can only see light qua its diffused colors not light itself.

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 9/23/2015 at 5:02 PM, diyaa110 said:

As Muslims we all believe that Allah is Just but I have often heard Islamic scholars say that it is part of Islamic philosophy and logic that a god must be just. I do understand the logic behind the existence of god; why he must exist -- but how can we logically prove that a god must be just as well ?

The logic is dependent on the definition of the word 'just'. 

  • If we define 'just' as "Whatever the Creator decides is just", then there is no issue. 
  • If we define 'just' as "Whatever humans decide is just", then there are issues. 

The 2 above can contradict, that's where the problem arises from a human's perspective and it's the essence of your question. But if a person believes that whatever God does is just, regardless to what he/she thinks, then there is a consistent argument to believe God is Just. 

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there is a simple answer to this 

He is Just because He is knowing, and He is knowing because He is most powerful 

So Justice is NATURAL while injustice is UN-NATURAL

Put it this way, is it right to kill an innocent person for a crime? obviously it isnt , so why would God kill an innocent for a crime he didnt do?

So Justice is not choice but natural state or natural cause and effect  

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On December 12, 2015 at 11:59 PM, Ugly Jinn said:

The logic is dependent on the definition of the word 'just'. 

  • If we define 'just' as "Whatever the Creator decides is just", then there is no issue. 
  • If we define 'just' as "Whatever humans decide is just", then there are issues. 

The 2 above can contradict, that's where the problem arises from a human's perspective and it's the essence of your question. But if a person believes that whatever God does is just, regardless to what he/she thinks, then there is a consistent argument to believe God is Just. 

You know about the Euthyphro dilemma.   Right...?

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

You know about the Euthyphro dilemma.   Right...?

Of course. How could anyone not?

But in case such ignorance really does exist...

Euthyphro went to the market. The price of Pears was 800 rubles. He exclaimed, "800?! Ye gads, why? Pears cost so much because you charge that amount—or does it cost that amount in itself and so you charge it?"

Any road, Euthyphro didn't have 800 rubles in his toga pockets. Plato was with him, but was waiting on his editor to come through on his last dialogue's pay. Socrates was learning how to play an instrument while waiting to die and so couldn't help either. Euthyphro, sad to say, had to wash his hands with just water.

Philosophy and thinking minds have ever since been puzzling themselves as to why Pears smells so good. Humanity's no closer to resolving that question than it had been the day Euthyphro returned to the angry eyes of his wife who spat out at him when once he'd come home—"Where's Pears?!"

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People fail  to realize something here 

they are taking away from God knowledge when they question such things

only those who are lacking in knowledge can be unjust 

and is God lacking in knowledge? of course he is NOT 

so the reason God is JUST is because HE is all knowing, and something is all knowing it makes the BEST decision because it sees the bad results of the other decisions and how the whole system will fall by a bad decision 

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On 11/27/2015 at 8:19 AM, eThErEaL said:

Yes.  What I am saying is part of the Islamic philosophical tradition.  It is not only Islamic, but it is perennial because it has its expression in other metaphyscial traditions from other religions like, Vedanta, and the Kabbalah.  The view I am espousing, if understood correctly, does not make God robotic or mechanical.  We moderns think like that because we have failed to understand what consciousness is.  Consciousness is not that invisible speaker in our heads.   Consciousness is being and freedom itself.  And the whole world is an expression of this Unitary Consciosunessness, Love, and Being.  Not only have we misunderstood God we have also misunderstood who we are!  

At the moment we're talking about that type of consciousness only, that is, being aware of oneself. I disagree that consciousness is being and freedom, it could be some definition for some universal consciousness or pantheists but at the moment I am talking about the consciousness we humans possess that makes us aware of our own existence and reality. Now............. I would like to share a few passages by Murtaza Mutahhari, I recently read this book. In fact I read it four days back and found it really different from the general concept we have.

Quote

What Is Possible

But a change in destiny in the sense that the factor bringing about the change should itself be a manifestation of what Allah has decreed, is possible. Though it may look rather queer, it is a fact that the destiny can be changed by another destiny.

It may look more surprising if we think of the divine aspect of fate and destiny, for a change in this aspect implies a change in the celestial world, in the angelic tablets and books and in the Divine Knowledge. So can Allah’s Knowledge still undergo a change? The surprise reaches its height when we admit that certain terrestrial affairs, especially human will and actions cause changes in the celestial world and the angelic record.

Is it not a fact that the terrestrial and material system emanates from the celestial system? Is it not a fact that the terrestrial world is inferior and the celestial world is superior? Is it not a fact that the human world is dominated by the angelic world? Is it still possible that a lower system, or at least a part of it, viz. the human world should influence a higher system and bring about changes in it, even if these changes also should take place in accordance with an appointed destiny? Here several remarkable questions crop up consecutively. Is the Knowledge of Allah changeable? Is a divine decree revocable? Can an inferior influence a superior?

The answer to these questions is in the affirmative. Yes, the Knowledge of Allah is changeable. In other words Allah has such knowledge also which is changeable. A divine decree is revocable. In other words Allah has decrees which are revocable. An inferior can influence a superior. A lower system, especially the will, desire and human acts can shake the higher world and cause changes in it. This is the highest form of man’s control of his destiny.

We admit that this statement is surprising, but it is factual. This is that lofty question of Bada’ which for the first time in human history was mentioned by the Qur’an.

Allah creates whatever He wants (out of what was recorded previously) and records whatever He wants (that was not recorded previously) and with Him alone is the Mother Book”. (Surah al-Ra’d, 13:39)

The doctrine has no precedent in the field of human knowledge. Among the Muslim sects it is only the Twelver Shi’ahs who have been able to derive this truth from the sayings of the Imams of the Ahlul-Bayt and they are proud of this distinction.

http://www.al-islam.org/man-and-his-destiny-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari/part-5-freedom-and-liberty#what-possible

This can also go in the predestination vs freewill thread............. actually I'll paste it there too, but what would you say about Allah possessing knowledge which is changeable... I mean we always think of the book or knowledge of Allah as written material or space-time frames that have to exactly match the reality that is unfolding... but if we think of this book as a program written in some programming language with commands and clauses and possibility of different outcomes then the 'controlled' and 'written' part holds true too while 'freewill' and 'changeable destiny' holds true all the same.

 

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On 11/28/2015 at 9:46 AM, Einstein said:

actually god can't will what contradicts his nature (or what's eternally in his mind), which means he can't actually do anything differently to what had existed eternally in his mind.

It's not like he's unable to. If you tell me to murder an innocent person, even if I can still I wont. I wont because it is not in my nature so in a way I've decided never to do it. Similarly God has a nature, He is Good, He is Just . . . I wouldn't say that He can't be unjust (unable to be unjust) because then He would deserve no credit for being just. It would also mean that He is not even as free as we are, because at least we have both options of being just or unjust (even if it is an illusion).

 وَمَا اللَّهُ يُرِيدُ ظُلْمًا لِلْعَالَمِينَ

[3:108] ...And Allah intends no injustice to mankind.

This is why I like to think that Allah is Just by His Will and Choice and not out of compulsion or necessity.

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On 12/12/2015 at 4:59 AM, Ugly Jinn said:

The logic is dependent on the definition of the word 'just'. 

  • If we define 'just' as "Whatever the Creator decides is just", then there is no issue. 
  • If we define 'just' as "Whatever humans decide is just", then there are issues. 

In both cases it is we humans defining.

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On 12/14/2015 at 9:53 PM, eThErEaL said:

You know about the Euthyphro dilemma.   Right...?

Not a dilemma for me. The Euthyphro's dilemma was, "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" The question again is 'who' decides what pious is? From an Islamic perspective God decides what pious is hence the answer is 'pious is loved because it is loved by God'. 

From a theological perceptive, if the Creator dictates the definition of 'just' then what he does is Just, irrelevant to what we think.

2 hours ago, diyaa110 said:

In both cases it is we humans defining.

Hence the problem. If God exists, we can't define 'just' on His behalf. It is He who will define the word.

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1 hour ago, Ugly Jinn said:

Not a dilemma for me. The Euthyphro's dilemma was, "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?" The question again is 'who' decides what pious is? From an Islamic perspective God decides what pious is hence the answer is 'pious is loved because it is loved by God'. 

From a theological perceptive, if the Creator dictates the definition of 'just' then what he does is Just, irrelevant to what we think.

Hence the problem. If God exists, we can't define 'just' on His behalf. It is He who will define the word.

What do you mean by it is isn't a dilemma for you?  you just chose one horn of the dilemma and neglected to answer theproblem associated with it.  Or am I misunderstanding what you are writing?  if so please explain.

The problem you have to now asnwer is, justice or "what counts as piety" is arbitrary.  Because if God decided to inflict pain on good people then that would be considered just.  This is because whatever God decides to do, you conssider as just.  He can punish the good and reward the sinner, and that would still be just (according to you)!  is this what you understand?

Edited by eThErEaL

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7 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

Hence the problem. If God exists, we can't define 'just' on His behalf. It is He who will define the word.

If God is not bound by our definition, then all of the rules of logic and deduction go out the window. 

If you want to justify that with God's power, then it reduces to "Might makes right."

The problem with excusing God from rationality is that ultimately, theists believe in a logical God, and only excuse Him from logic in specific instances to allow themselves to hold conflicting ideas. A form of 'cognitive dissonance' :) 

'God is not bound by logic' -- if it means anything -- presumably means 'Propositions about God do not imply the truth or falsity of any other propositions'. 
But if this is the case then propositions about God convey no information and are entirely useless, and there is no point in making them, or in referring to God in any way whatsoever. 

Which is exactly what atheists have been saying all along. 

wslm.

*
 

Edited by Quisant
spelling

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12 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

What do you mean by it is isn't a dilemma for you?  you just chose one horn of the dilemma and neglected to answer theproblem associated with it.  Or am I misunderstanding what you are writing?  if so please explain.

The problem you have to now asnwer is, justice or "what counts as piety" is arbitrary.  Because if God decided to inflict pain on good people then that would be considered just.  This is because whatever God decides to do, you conssider as just.  He can punish the good and reward the sinner, and that would still be just (according to you)!  is this what you understand?

The answer to your question is 'yes'. The best evidence is in the Quran, the story of Moses and Kidhr. Khidr action's were considered unjust by Moses (a prophet), yet according to God it was just. Hence, the only logical definition for a person that believes God is Just is that God defines justice. 

 

6 hours ago, Quisant said:

If God is not bound by our definition, then all of the rules of logic and deduction go out the window. 

If you want to justify that with God's power, then it reduces to "Might makes right."

The problem with excusing God from rationality is that ultimately, theists believe in a logical God, and only excuse Him from logic in specific instances to allow themselves to hold conflicting ideas. A form of 'cognitive dissonance' :) 

'God is not bound by logic' -- if it means anything -- presumably means 'Propositions about God do not imply the truth or falsity of any other propositions'. 
But if this is the case then propositions about God convey no information and are entirely useless, and there is no point in making them, or in referring to God in any way whatsoever. 

Which is exactly what atheists have been saying all along. 

wslm.

*
 

Not out the window, it becomes subjective. It would be illogical for the creation to dictate the definitions for the Creator, it should be the other way around.

It's not really 'might makes right', it's more like 'creator is the decider' (doesn't rhyme as well as yours). 

To your second part, logic is in a way subjective. Why Create? Is there a logical reason behind it?

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Quote

The answer to your question is 'yes'. The best evidence is in the Quran, the story of Moses and Kidhr. Khidr action's were considered unjust by Moses (a prophet), yet according to God it was just. Hence, the only logical definition for a person that believes God is Just is that God defines justice. 

Wrong. Musa [as] wasn't told the full story, he didn't judge what was just as unjust. When Musa [as] was told the fully story, then he agreed with al khidr.

Quote

 

Not out the window, it becomes subjective. It would be illogical for the creation to dictate the definitions for the Creator, it should be the other way around.

It's not really 'might makes right', it's more like 'creator is the decider' (doesn't rhyme as well as yours). 

To your second part, logic is in a way subjective. Why Create? Is there a logical reason behind it?

 

 

The creator doesn't define what is "justice" as a concept itself is since justice itself is self defined. Just like a creator doesn't dictate what the concept of "hearing" or "sight" is, but he does dictate who can hear and who can see.

Going by your definition, if God judged rape as just you would see it as just. We on the other hand say that God would never declare rape as just because rape in its very essence is unjust.

 

Edited by Abu-Jafar Herz

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14 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

Not out the window, it becomes subjective. It would be illogical for the creation to dictate the definitions for the Creator, it should be the other way around.

It's not really 'might makes right', it's more like 'creator is the decider' (doesn't rhyme as well as yours). 

To your second part, logic is in a way subjective. Why Create? Is there a logical reason behind it?

Might makes right is the same as God decides.It boils down to the same thing.

If God is the Decider, then it has the potential of being lawless and thus wayward.
God could be Benevolent, Malevolent or Indifferent. How do you know? 

If we lack the "perspective" to understand God's logic, there's no way to prove that God is logical. If God's logic is beyond our comprehension, then that is no different to our perspective than a God who is not logical.

Believers, in fact, RELY on god acting in a logical way: God is good; he will certainly set everything right. If I behave myself he'll send me to heaven. 

You are the believer, how do you cope with these contradictions? What are you worshipping?

wslm.

*

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On 9/23/2015 at 3:02 PM, diyaa110 said:

Salam,

 

As Muslims we all believe that Allah is Just but I have often heard Islamic scholars say that it is part of Islamic philosophy and logic that a god must be just. I do understand the logic behind the existence of god; why he must exist -- but how can we logically prove that a god must be just as well ?

This isn't only a "Muslim" query. I've heard many times, "How could a just God let this happen?"

Quite frankly, from where we sit, we haven't got a clue and all our logic is based on the physical world we live in.

One of the things that most people miss is that God does not value human life like we do. There's a reason. He's God. He doesn't have to live up to our expectations.

People say, "What a tragic way to die" God says, "Welcome to Heaven" 

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On 12/16/2015 at 1:30 PM, Abu-Jafar Herz said:

Wrong. Musa [as] wasn't told the full story, he didn't judge what was just as unjust. When Musa [as] was told the fully story, then he agreed with al khidr

You totally missed the point. 

Quote

The creator doesn't define what is "justice" as a concept itself is since justice itself is self defined.

No. 

Quote

Going by your definition, if God judged rape as just you would see it as just. We on the other hand say that God would never declare rape as just because rape in its very essence is unjust.

'We' is subjective, God isn't. Even using your extreme scenario, if God defined rape as just then Muslims would consider it just also.

 

On 12/17/2015 at 3:46 AM, Quisant said:

Might makes right is the same as God decides.It boils down to the same thing.If God is the Decider, then it has the potential of being lawless and thus wayward.
God could be Benevolent, Malevolent or Indifferent. How do you know? 

When you say 'How do you know?', you mean absolute truth? If so, we don't know, we believe. Most religious folks think they know, it's just their emotions talking. But from an Islamic perspective, if a person is a Muslim, he/she believes that God is just because logically God dictates the definition (ex. just, mercy, etc.) - so anything He does or doesn't do is just. 

Quote

If we lack the "perspective" to understand God's logic, there's no way to prove that God is logical. If God's logic is beyond our comprehension, then that is no different to our perspective than a God who is not logical.

Believers, in fact, RELY on god acting in a logical way: God is good; he will certainly set everything right. If I behave myself he'll send me to heaven. 

You are the believer, how do you cope with these contradictions? What are you worshipping?

I do not believe every information in or beyond this universe will make logical sense, we are too limited to attain absolute logic. To believe that humans can objectively determine whether every aspect of existence is logical or not is erroneous. We do our best to comprehend, and are successful to a degree, but we will never reach absolute status.

To your second part, the coping is simple to understand, as I said, if a person believes every action/inaction of God is Just because He defines 'just' (regardless to our opinion, which is subjective), then there is no contradiction. 

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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9 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

When you say 'How do you know?', you mean absolute truth? If so, we don't know, we believe. Most religious folks think they know, it's just their emotions talking. But from an Islamic perspective, if a person is a Muslim, he/she believes that God is just because logically God dictates the definition (ex. just, mercy, etc.) - so anything He does or doesn't do is just. 

I do not believe every information in or beyond this universe will make logical sense, we are too limited to attain absolute logic. To believe that humans can objectively determine whether every aspect of existence is logical or not is erroneous. We do our best to comprehend, and are successful to a degree, but we will never reach absolute status.

To your second part, the coping is simple to understand, as I said, if a person believes every action/inaction of God is Just because He defines 'just' (regardless to our opinion, which is subjective), then there is no contradiction. 

When I asked 'how do you know?' I was referring to Benevolent, Malevolent, Indifferent.

And I don't mean we should know the 'absolute truth' about everything, I believe that it is intellectually more honest to admit ignorance rather than insist there is a Supernatural motive behind what we do not understand. 

Monkeys do not understand 'Pythagoras Theorem' but it does not make it Divine.

You are saying that God is 'Just' because Islamic Tradition tells us, Christians say God is three entities because Tradition instructs. This is just repeating 'hear-say' instead of  working it out for ourselves.

In my previous post I pointed out that amongst God's attributes He is Just and He is Merciful. 
This is another contradiction:
'Being just means enacting punishment appropriate to the crime and being merciful means forgiving or enacting lesser punishment than that fits the crime.  
Any time god forgives a sin, he could have been more just, any time he punishes, he could have been merciful.' 

As with most conversations, this is the moment where it becomes pointless to continue because it is no longer you talking to me, you have hidden behind the curtain of Islamic tradition and relying on Dogma rather than personal/original Reason.  

What do you say, shall we agree to disagree? :)
 

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On 12/19/2015 at 3:56 AM, Quisant said:

When I asked 'how do you know?' I was referring to Benevolent, Malevolent, Indifferent.

And I don't mean we should know the 'absolute truth' about everything, I believe that it is intellectually more honest to admit ignorance rather than insist there is a Supernatural motive behind what we do not understand. 

I agree with above except the part where you believe theists are forcing an illogical theory regarding a supernatural being. I think both sides, atheists and theists have valid arguments. Theist's belief in supernatural existed prior to any of the holy books that were revealed, hence this theory is as old as humans. This supernaturally theory comes from plethora of places, not just one. You can go back in history and look at isolated tribes that had no contact or influence from the outside world believe in a supreme being/s. Why is that? Why does this theory/belief pop up everywhere?

 

Quote

Monkeys do not understand 'Pythagoras Theorem' but it does not make it Divine.

True. 

 

Quote

You are saying that God is 'Just' because Islamic Tradition tells us, Christians say God is three entities because Tradition instructs. This is just repeating 'hear-say' instead of  working it out for ourselves.

In my previous post I pointed out that amongst God's attributes He is Just and He is Merciful. 
This is another contradiction:
'Being just means enacting punishment appropriate to the crime and being merciful means forgiving or enacting lesser punishment than that fits the crime.  
Any time god forgives a sin, he could have been more just, any time he punishes, he could have been merciful.' 

As with most conversations, this is the moment where it becomes pointless to continue because it is no longer you talking to me, you have hidden behind the curtain of Islamic tradition and relying on Dogma rather than personal/original Reason.  

What do you say, shall we agree to disagree? :)

Two points:

  1. Even if we put religion aside, a theist can make a consistent argument that God created everything, He creates the definition of 'just', hence anything He does or doesn't do is just. 
  2. The 'Mercifully Just' issue is an old one, and I will admit that there's a logical inconsistency. You have a valid point with that argument. I'm sure after reading that response you will realize I'm not hiding behind an Islamic curtain. I am very unbiased. I believe an argument, from start to finish, has to be consistent for a specific topic. 

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10 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

I agree with above except the part where you believe theists are forcing an illogical theory regarding a supernatural being. I think both sides, atheists and theists have valid arguments. Theist's belief in supernatural existed prior to any of the holy books that were revealed, hence this theory is as old as humans. This supernaturally theory comes from plethora of places, not just one. You can go back in history and look at isolated tribes that had no contact or influence from the outside world believe in a supreme being/s. Why is that? Why does this theory/belief pop up everywhere?

With regards to why the theory pops up everywhere, I think the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche offers a good analysis

" In ages of crude, primordial cultures, man thought he could come to know a second real world in dreams: this is the origin of all metaphysics. Without dreams man would have found no occasion to divide the world. 
The separation into body and soul is also connected to the oldest views about dreams, as is the assumption of a spiritual apparition that is, the origin of all belief in
ghosts, and probably also in gods. "The dead man lives on, because he appears to the living man in dreams." So man concluded formerly, throughout many thousands of years." 
 

10 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

Two points:

  1. Even if we put religion aside, a theist can make a consistent argument that God created everything, He creates the definition of 'just', hence anything He does or doesn't do is just. 
  2. The 'Mercifully Just' issue is an old one, and I will admit that there's a logical inconsistency. You have a valid point with that argument. I'm sure after reading that response you will realize I'm not hiding behind an Islamic curtain. I am very unbiased. I believe an argument, from start to finish, has to be consistent for a specific topic. 

 


1) By the same logic God creates the definition of Evil hence anything He does or doesn't do is Evil. 

2) I am grateful for your unbiased response, a very good post.

wslm.
*

 

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On 12/23/2015 at 3:45 AM, Quisant said:

With regards to why the theory pops up everywhere, I think the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche offers a good analysis

" In ages of crude, primordial cultures, man thought he could come to know a second real world in dreams: this is the origin of all metaphysics. Without dreams man would have found no occasion to divide the world. 
The separation into body and soul is also connected to the oldest views about dreams, as is the assumption of a spiritual apparition that is, the origin of all belief in
ghosts, and probably also in gods. "The dead man lives on, because he appears to the living man in dreams." So man concluded formerly, throughout many thousands of years." 

That theory is focused on earlier times, which is a total guess, but what about now? Even for the sake of argument we accept Nietzsche's theory, it's 2015 now, why are overwhelming folks in the billions still believe in a supernatural being? Atheists are in the overwhelming minority. 

 

Quote

1) By the same logic God creates the definition of Evil hence anything He does or doesn't do is Evil. 

2) I am grateful for your unbiased response, a very good post.

wslm.

The above has no issues, the answer is 'Yes'. If you believe God is evil then the above will be true, there are 'Satanists' that believe that. 

  • If you believe God is good then 'God creates the definition of Good hence anything He does or doesn't do is Good. 
  • If you believe God is Evil then 'God creates the definition of Evil hence anything He does or doesn't do is Evil. 
  • If you believe God is Just then 'God creates the definition of Just hence anything He does or doesn't do is Just. 
  • If you believe God is Unjust then 'God creates the definition of Unjust hence anything He does or doesn't do is Unjust. 

All above scenarios are logically consistent, it all depends on what your belief of God is. 

---

Regarding God being Merciful and Just, that's a logical contradiction that's difficult to reconcile. 

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17 hours ago, Ugly Jinn said:

That theory is focused on earlier times, which is a total guess, but what about now? Even for the sake of argument we accept Nietzsche's theory, it's 2015 now, why are overwhelming folks in the billions still believe in a supernatural being? Atheists are in the overwhelming minority. 

 

That is hardly surprising, given the promise of Eternal life, combined with indoctrination from an early age for centuries has resulted in billions of believers. 

 

Quote

 

The above has no issues, the answer is 'Yes'. If you believe God is evil then the above will be true, there are 'Satanists' that believe that. 

  • If you believe God is good then 'God creates the definition of Good hence anything He does or doesn't do is Good. 
  • If you believe God is Evil then 'God creates the definition of Evil hence anything He does or doesn't do is Evil. 
  • If you believe God is Just then 'God creates the definition of Just hence anything He does or doesn't do is Just. 
  • If you believe God is Unjust then 'God creates the definition of Unjust hence anything He does or doesn't do is Unjust. 

All above scenarios are logically consistent, it all depends on what your belief of God is. 

 

Your reply reminds of a verse in The Kasîdah of Hâjî Abdû El-Yezdî (1870), VI

All Faith is false, all Faith is true:
Truth is the shattered mirror strown
In myriad bits; while each believes
his little bit the whole to own.

I always thought of God as just a belief, an idea.

Anyway, I am sorry to stop the conversation short, it is the annual time to journey and visit relatives and I will be away a few days.

Thanks for talking to me, all the best.

wslm.

*

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On 23/12/2015 at 7:45 PM, Quisant said:

With regards to why the theory pops up everywhere, I think the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche offers a good analysis

" In ages of crude, primordial cultures, man thought he could come to know a second real world in dreams: this is the origin of all metaphysics. Without dreams man would have found no occasion to divide the world. 
The separation into body and soul is also connected to the oldest views about dreams, as is the assumption of a spiritual apparition that is, the origin of all belief in
ghosts, and probably also in gods. "The dead man lives on, because he appears to the living man in dreams." So man concluded formerly, throughout many thousands of years." 
 

That isn't analysis, good, poor or otherwise. That's an atheistic etiological legend pretending to be an explanation.

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On 12/25/2015 at 7:50 PM, Ugly Jinn said:

 

  • If you believe God is good then 'God creates the definition of Good hence anything He does or doesn't do is Good. 
  • If you believe God is Evil then 'God creates the definition of Evil hence anything He does or doesn't do is Evil. 
  • If you believe God is Just then 'God creates the definition of Just hence anything He does or doesn't do is Just. 
  • If you believe God is Unjust then 'God creates the definition of Unjust hence anything He does or doesn't do is Unjust. 

All above scenarios are logically consistent, it all depends on what your belief of God is. 

If I believe God to be good, then it means I have a definition of my own for a 'God' and for 'good', it's not like I learn what is good from the actions of God. I already have a definition of good in my mind prior to accepting God and his version or definition of what good is. So what are you trying to say ? And how is this logically consistent ? What you're saying is that God can be good or evil, just or unjust and be proven to be so, simply by labeling him with the tag we want.

I believe that God is good, but at the same time I believe He creates the definition of evil, of finiteness, of mortality, of darkness. Not only that but He creates the definition of if, of you, of believe, of is, of then. What I mean is that we assign words to meanings, the meanings exist before they're named, and although God is the Creator of all meanings or things, but He is not from whom we derive the meanings. We believe in goodness before we believe in God, it means that as believers we accept God because first and foremost we're believers of good, that is why when we witness something apparently evil associated with God we seek clarification or justification - all because we have a well-defined concept of what good is prior to realizing our belief in Him. (Now of course Him being the source of all good it is only a case of falling for the traits of the lover before learning His name - but that's a different thing, right now I'm only saying that the definition of good is one and consistent and any act of Allah can be justified as good by proving it to be in accordance with the definition of good rather than claiming that it is good simply because it is an act of Allah)

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On 9/23/2015 at 5:02 PM, diyaa110 said:

Salam,

 

As Muslims we all believe that Allah is Just but I have often heard Islamic scholars say that it is part of Islamic philosophy and logic that a god must be just. I do understand the logic behind the existence of god; why he must exist -- but how can we logically prove that a god must be just as well ?

The only logical approach I've conjured is as Such (why he must exist and why he must be just are tied together):

(I'm making assumptions that need to be defined)

If a God exists, what is God's nature? Are humans capable of comprehending it attempting to understand that nature ?  Are we responsible for dictating how a God should be?

If we can't dictate how other humans should be because of some moral code we developed, why should we break that code to assume what God is?

 According to us, morals and ethics, the definition of justice, is subjective.

It seems because our differing opinions, we clash because our disagreement over our subjective views of justice, ethics and morals.  If we only shared one view, perhaps we'd have harmony/peace?

Ponder,  you are the first human and have been willed into being.   Unlike most creations/animals we know we can't know things unless we are taught.

How do you move on? Can you?  You need something to teach you something to properly shove you off.  Why?  Well because you know nothing.

How do we know if what we're taught is just or correct?  We know nothing, so we subsume the first things we are taught Instinctively .

We can't ask why God must be just if we don't know what "being just" even is.  If we can't agree with each other on what being just is, then we must be taught it.

Confusing isn't it?

2:286

Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."

Being " just" shouldn't depend only on our own definition alone because humans are fickle and ever varying giving way to variability in ethical premises (we'll never agree).  A universal singular totem to come to will align all perspective to share that understanding that hopefully will unify us.   Perhaps it's the wrong question to ask "why" must God be just.  

But what is it? Is it as prescribed in the Quran,  do we all follow it?  When we do, what should we expect to see in order to validate our understanding ? 

Marvel at how intangible concepts/virtues as honesty, trust, truth, etc. Have no physical weight nor tangibile significance to all infinitely large and small floating objects in the universe, yet it holds weight and significance to us small insignificant humans. We can't hold those virtues in our hands, yet they mean so much.  

Perhaps that's where we should start when pondering your question, and how we can understand why God must be just.

A person can't have trust without honesty and other seemingly intuitive virtues I mentioned before, why does trust matter and how do we identify it?  Why do we like trustworthy folk so much ?  Maybe because they give us... peace/harmony?

I think these have to do with helping us identify if God is "Just", because we're told to strive for these attributes from "God'a words".

Anyway I'm ranting, hopefully you get something out of all that garbage, sorry if you didn't. 

 

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