Jump to content
In the Name of God بسم الله

Jewish Usury And Christian Crusades

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Veteran Member

Greetings,

This is not an anti semite topic. I found this when i was looking for reasons of hatred that was directed to jews in Europe. Through studying history, it seems that usury played a key role in this situation.

In the old world , there were three major religions :Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The last 2 religions forbade usury. Judaism forbade taking interests from other jews but made it ok to take it from non jews and according to some interpretations, it is an obligation upon a jew to take interest from non jew.

In this wiki page, there is a mention of the role of banking in the crusades. But I am very poor in economy and can't get the whole mechanism of how it worked.

would someone explain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum Administrators
On 9/14/2015 at 8:28 AM, Chaotic Muslem said:

Greetings,

Judaism forbade taking interests from other jews but made it ok to take it from non jews and according to some interpretations, it is an obligation upon a jew to take interest from non jew.

FWIW my understanding is that Shia fiqh is similar. Paying interest is haram. Charging a Muslim interest is haram, but you can charge non-Muslims interest.

There's more on a related topic by the respected Russian author Alexander Solzhenitsyn:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/07/solzhenitsyn-on-the-jews-and-tsarist-russia/print/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

first of all remember that wikipedia is a zion controlled area when it comes to specific matters (history, medicine, politics, news, and so on).
therefore i only use wikipedia for common/basic questions such as "whats the capital of England".
 
Google is also zionist owned, when you search something wikipedia most likely is on the top searches mainly because they cooperate (zions both of them).
 
i dont know if i understod your questions or not, but if you asking the role of the banks. its simple.
 
the banks are the ones controlling Money supply in order to establish good economy to the country. what is the wrong thing here you might ask, well since they print Money whenever they want and whenever there is an interest to borrow from the public or other parties. They create Money which leads to that there is more Money than Money owned by the public and parties. (most of it being virtual Money, debet, credit card)
 
Watch these 2 mintute videos

 


now imagine if all where to go to bank and withdraw their cash, how many would not be left with nothing.

most of you might be thinking it doesnt work like that. it does work like that, its even described in the approved books like that.

but the truth is, its even more corrupt than that

Edited by ultra
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

But the prohibition made it difficult for the many kingdoms ruled by a motley group of monarchs who needed the money to fund wars and manage the exchequer. 

 

How?

We are talking about Monarchy system, people who gave themselves the right to own the earth and those walking on it. So how they were short on funding their own wars?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

 

How?

We are talking about Monarchy system, people who gave themselves the right to own the earth and those walking on it. So how they were short on funding their own wars?

 

Monarchies do not have unlimited supply of money, esp smaller ones. It's not like they could go around taking every penny from people; those who did this met with revolt. In pre-modern times often the only source of state income were agrarian taxes and merchant levies, unless they had access to precious metals like gold and silver in large quantities (like Spain did in Latin America). When tax money was misspent the expenditure would become higher than the net income; endless warring turned a state into a pauper in no time. At that point monarchies raised funds by borrowing money from whoever was willing to lend them, often on outrageous terms. Due to internecine wars in Europe in the 13th and 14th centuries and later during the Reformation period, many European monarchies and duchies that dotted the continental Europe had been chronically short of funds. Their favourite creditors often turned out to be Jewish moneylenders. 

Edited by Marbles
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 9/14/2015 at 9:07 AM, Haji 2003 said:

FWIW my understanding is that Shia fiqh is similar. Paying interest is haram. Charging a Muslim interest is haram, but you can charge non-Muslims interest.

There's more on a related topic by the respected Russian author Alexander Solzhenitsyn:

http://www.counter-currents.com/2015/07/solzhenitsyn-on-the-jews-and-tsarist-russia/print/

i found these paragraphs to be interesting 

In the autumn of 1881, at Ignatiev’s recommendation, a committee was created to draft new Jewish legislation in response to the pogroms. Unlike previous “Jewish committees”—there had been eight of them already—it operated on the assumption that assimilation was an unattainable goal. (This is what many Jews were starting to think as well.) The committee recommended looking to the past for guidance, apparently meaning  the  customs  of pre-emancipation Europe.  The new sentiment was that, “Jews had always been considered a foreign element, and must once and for all be considered such.

Jewish emigration, especially to America, began to increase in the years following the pogroms, and it is widely asserted that this occurred because of the pogroms. The emigrants, however, came mostly from Lithuania, Belarus, and Poland—not from Ukraine, where the violence had actually occurred. In fact, there was even a Jewish internal migration toward the more thinly populated Ukraine in these same years. And Jewish emigration to America only became a mass phenomenon in the late 1890s: Solzhenitsyn suggests that the State monopoly on distilling instituted in 1896 was a principal cause. In any case, the evidence indicates that Jews came to America as economic migrants, not as refugees “fleeing the Tsarist pogroms.”

The Jews, mindful of the recent pogroms, felt these developments added insult to injury and entirely abandoned the idea of assimilation. Calls for an independent Jewish state were even heard in Russia as early as 1882, fourteen years before Theodor Herzl’s Judenstaat was published. The rise of Zionism might have been expected to encroach upon Jewish involvement in the revolutionary movement. Individual cases of such “conversion” are certainly known, but the overall trend of these years was toward ever greater Jewish participation in revolutionary politics. All imaginable combinations of socialism and Zionism also found their advocates.

The goal being to combat Autocracy, their interest lay in forever increasing pressure on the Jewish question, but never solving it: thus one kept one’s ammunition in reserve. These knights of liberty reasoned: let’s not allow the lifting of restrictions on the Jews dampen their ardor for battle. (p. 465)

it's been a good read. thank you but it dose not answer the question : what is the mechanism? how dose funding war worked back then?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

I would have liked to watch this if it wasn't for the host being one of the most despicable pieces of human scum on earth.

 

Sure he's a right wing empire apologist but on the matter of financial history his book of the same name (later turned into this documentary) is actually quite good, until he starts pontificating on the beneficial role of the imperial finance in making big business possible. From big business came the possibilities of technological advancement from which, in his view, the world benefits.

Edited by Marbles
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

The other users were correct.  In Shakespearean times, anti-semitism was rampant: synagogues were burned to the ground, Jews were harshly slaughtered in countless instances.  Jews were banned from owning property and creating any businesses besides banking.  This was there only way to make money; what would you do if you could not provide for your family, surely you would not let them starve. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 9/14/2015 at 7:59 PM, ~ThePond~ said:

The other users were correct.  In Shakespearean times, anti-semitism was rampant: synagogues were burned to the ground, Jews were harshly slaughtered in countless instances.  Jews were banned from owning property and creating any businesses besides banking.  This was there only way to make money; what would you do if you could not provide for your family, surely you would not let them starve. 

The crusades were before Shakespearian days.

crusade 1090

shakespear 1500-1600

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum Administrators
On 9/14/2015 at 3:46 PM, Chaotic Muslem said:

it's been a good read. thank you but it dose not answer the question : what is the mechanism? how dose funding war worked back then?

I think your wiki link is referring to the Templars etc. running a type of hawala/hundi system i.e. deposit is made in one country and a colleague of the 'banker' in another country allows a withdrawal to be made.

The system relies on high levels of interpersonal trust between the two banking entities and will likely exist based on ethnic/kinship ties.

So Jews, Asians (Indians) and Chinese with extensive social network ties across many different geographies would have an advantage over other ethnic groups who'd more likely have dense social network ties within a small geographic area. 

In such a system the customer pays for various benefits e.g. not having to carry lots of money across countries. So the payments are not linked to usury per se.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 9/15/2015 at 5:28 AM, Haji 2003 said:

I think your wiki link is referring to the Templars etc. running a type of hawala/hundi system i.e. deposit is made in one country and a colleague of the 'banker' in another country allows a withdrawal to be made.

The system relies on high levels of interpersonal trust between the two banking entities and will likely exist based on ethnic/kinship ties.

So Jews, Asians (Indians) and Chinese with extensive social network ties across many different geographies would have an advantage over other ethnic groups who'd more likely have dense social network ties within a small geographic area. 

In such a system the customer pays for various benefits e.g. not having to carry lots of money across countries. So the payments are not linked to usury per se.

Thank you. But how dose funding war benefit the bank. It is a risky loan, they might lose the war and cannot pay back, right?

Also, how did transactions back then worked? Transactions today are good because they are fast but back then they were too slow and of no guarantee . I can fool someone easily giving them papers without any true material value.

Quote

It is also likely that the crusaders were motivated by their need for money. The Rhineland communities were relatively wealthy, both due to their isolation, and because they were not restricted as Catholics were against moneylending. Many crusaders had to go into debt in order to purchase weaponry and equipment for the expedition; as Western Catholicism strictly forbade usury (unlike Eastern Orthodoxy, which merely regulated it), many crusaders inevitably found themselves indebted to Jewish moneylenders. Having armed themselves by assuming the debt, the crusaders rationalized the killing of Jews as an extension of their Catholic mission.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres

Also, why they were trouble makers in Europe but were well tolerated and well assimilated in Muslim lands. Jews as money exchangers are well known in history books. Alsirafi is a name of family that exist in many countries referring to the money exchange profession, many of them turned to be Shia even.

Quote

With the rapid development of city life and commerce in the caliphate of Baghdad from the late eighth century and the transition of the majority of Jews under caliphate rule from agriculture and a village environment to the cities, banking became one of the occupations of some upper-class Jews, especially in Baghdad and later under the Fatimids (from 968) in Egypt. This Jahbadhiyya, as it was called, was a form of banking based on the savings and economic activities of the whole Jewish merchant class and not only on the fortunes of the very rich: the bankers loaned to the state and its officers money deposited with them as well as from their own fortunes. The vast sums at the disposal of these Jewish bankers and their relative immunity from confiscation by the autocratic authorities both tend to confirm that these Jewish "court bankers" from the beginning of the tenth century onward were well-known to their Muslim debtors as a kind of "deposit banker" for Jewish merchants. Under the Fatimid caliph al-Mustanṣir the brothers *Abu Saʿd al-Tustarī and Abu Naṣr Ḥesed b. Sahl al-Tustarī (both died in 1048) were influential in the finances of Egypt. With the rise of *Saladin and the foundation of the Ayyubid dynasty in Egypt (1169), the position of the Jews deteriorated but they were able to continue their moneychanging activities at least. Toward the end of the Mamluk period (1517), Samuel, a moneychanger in Cairo, must have possessed considerable wealth, for the Arab chronicler Ibn Iyās tells that the sultan extorted from him more than 500,000 dinars. During the Muslim rule on the Iberian peninsula, Córdoba Jews were active in the financial administration in the tenth and eleventh centuries. The responsa of this period show a highly developed money economy existing before the First and Second Crusades.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_01978.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 9/14/2015 at 8:28 AM, Chaotic Muslem said:

Greetings,

This is not an anti semite topic. I found this when i was looking for reasons of hatred that was directed to jews in Europe. Through studying history, it seems that usury played a key role in this situation.

Salam/Shalom/Peace Chaotic Muslim,

As a Gentile Christian, it shames and horrifies me how other Christians have hated and persecuted Jewish people. :(

There is no good reason for Christians to persecute or hate Jewish people, whether they accept Jesus (Yeshua) as the Christ (Mashiach) or not.

Jesus Christ is Jewish.

Mary, his mother, is Jewish.

Joseph, who married Mary, is Jewish.

The 12 apostles Jesus chose are Jewish, including Peter, James and John.

The early believers were all Jewish. 

God showed Peter that Gentiles could follow Jesus Christ too (Acts 10).

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10&version=ESV

This fulfills Isaiah 49:5-8, although Jewish people who reject Yeshua disagree, and that is their right... nobody should persecute or hate them!!!! I boldened some:

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

- Isaiah 49:5-6

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah49.html

Sadly, many Jewish followers of the Jewish Messiah were murdered. :( Eventually, Gentile believers outnumbered Jewish believers and took control of the church. Constantine, who legalized his accepted form of Christianity, disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love enemies. Instead of following Jesus' example, who did not lead his Jewish followers into war with either the Jewish people who rejected him or the Romans who were oppressing the Jewish people, Constantine fought his enemies. :(

All the people who identify as Christians yet persecute Jewish people, or any other group of people, are disobeying Jesus Christ's commands. :(

Jesus Christ clearly commanded his followers to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:25-37) and love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37).

God will judge all the people who have professed to be Christians yet disobey what Jesus Christ commands.

Peace and God bless you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum Administrators
On 9/15/2015 at 7:47 AM, Christianlady said:

As a Gentile Christian, it shames and horrifies me how other Christians have hated and persecuted Jewish people. :(

Not sure you should beat yourself up so much. There have been occasions of Christians bending backwards to be nice e.g.:

Quote

p.11 Jews were also granted the concession for collecting customs dues on the Polish-Lithuanian frontier as well as on the internal boundaries and proved a source of considerable gain to the royal trasury. The larger customs contractors enjoyed a priveleged position: they were exempt from the payment of taxes and were placed under the immediate protection of the king. This liberal treatment of the Jews resulted in inciting against them the hostility of the main sections of the population: clergy, townsfold and farmers.

 
Cohen, Israel. 1943. Vilna. Jewish Community Studies, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia.
 
I think it is instructive that the author concludes that such generous behaviour may have, in itself, resulted in subsequent violence against Jews.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Salam,

I think we need to clarify a statement that was made earlier. Someone mentioned that as Muslims's we can charge interest to non-muslims, but I think, based on what I heard, we can't charge interest period. Although, we can accept interest from non-Muslims. Can anyone further clarify this?

Thanks

Salman

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

I am still bewildered about the nature of transactions that replaced gold for e piece of paper but i have a thought and i am not sure how accurate it is:

I think that Europe in medeival ages had a primitive monetary system. It relied solely on feudalism and agrarian communism. After the Spanish inquisitions and the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Andalus, Jews moved to Italy carrying with a refined monetary system. Islam has many laws and rules and regulations of ownership, property, changing value between goods and how to exchange them, things like hawala and Qabalah and lalalal and talalah etc etc. When Jews where in Damascus or Baghdad or Qurtobah, they had to aid by the laws of the islamic state and Muslims knew the laws and they could bring Jews to islamic courts which drew red lines on the risky deals.

Jews took this refined system to a society that is totally naive about it.

I don't think it was a bad thing when it started. These transactions can make life good and move economy, give you many options and more mobility. But without restrictions, anyone can exploit any law. So jews were seen as experts by the money lords, the nobles and monarchs, they were hired to collect taxes and be brokers for them.

Smart people with refined great system and all the law makers to your side and totally clueless society > economic disaster in Europe. 

Quote

Beginning in the Middle Ages (5th to 15th centuries), Muller observes, Jews played a large role in the world of commerce and finance in Europe. They were, in fact, pushed into that role by a dominant Christian theology that considered poverty a virtue, disdained commerce,  condemned money-lending at interest, and left such activities to the “accursed” Jews. If Jews were initially forced into commercial pursuits outside the scope of feudal society, however, it suited them well: Unlike Catholicism, Jewish doctrine has no aversion to these economic activities and considers poverty to be a curse, not a source of virtue. Jews were also more urban, literate, and mobile than most Christians, and had a network of fellow Jews in other lands with whom to do business. Poland once welcomed Jews for that very reason, and in later years Jewish leaders would argue forcefully for the elimination of anti-Semitic laws on the grounds that Jewish business skills would bring prosperity to societies that welcomed them. In sum, they functioned as a quasi-capitalist class in European feudal and early modern society.

I think theology or what Christians believed back then played a role in the choice of words to express their anger regarding the economic crisis but the Christianity itself wasn't the issue.

http://jewishcurrents.org/capitalism-and-the-jews-18623

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 9/19/2015 at 12:12 AM, salman1 said:

Salam,

I think we need to clarify a statement that was made earlier. Someone mentioned that as Muslims's we can charge interest to non-muslims, but I think, based on what I heard, we can't charge interest period. Although, we can accept interest from non-Muslims. Can anyone further clarify this?

Thanks

Salman

That was my understanding but I am as novice about finance as 5 year old child.

I hope someone who knows enough about islamic finance can enlighten us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim  In The Name Of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.  As salaamu alaykum  The Peace Be Upon You.

These titles might be helpful concerning money and its various uses in today's world. 

 Money as Debt - Full Documentary
 
 
 
 Rothschild's Funding World War 2
 
Wassalaam.  Faithfully999
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 years later...
  • Advanced Member
On 9/14/2015 at 4:07 PM, Haji 2003 said:

FWIW my understanding is that Shia fiqh is similar. Paying interest is haram. Charging a Muslim interest is haram, but you can charge non-Muslims interest.

@Haji 2003

So does the Qur’ān condemn believers only for charging fellow believers interest?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...