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In the Name of God بسم الله

If The Shias Dominated The World...

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(salam)

If the Shias dominated the world how will Christians be treated?

Depends whether they are Catholics or Protestants. Countries with Catholics minorities will be set on fire with civilian wars, young americans will migrate to Italy to loot, behead people, blow up cars during Easter processions and the Vatican will be mocked by the world as disbelievers and tomb worshippers.

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They would be the sources for Mutah.

No young man can disagree :P

 

But in seriousness, they will be treated equal if the world is dominated by faithful shias, if not then a little lower but still normal id guess.

 

Reading this makes me want to slap your head off! Really?? Sources for Mutah? Get your mind straight  before posting such garbage again! Such a disgusting thing to say! You view us, and our women as lower class? We are only good for sex? That's all? Pfff, shame on you!

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Well in my opinion; historically, specifically in the Middle East, Christian and Shiites get along (like in Iran) due to their similar status as minority groups.  Religious and scripturally, Islam speaks on respecting the Abrahamic religious in particular.  Christians do have common beliefs; and many Christians in the Middle East admire Hussein (a.s) and Ali (a.s). Our role models, the Ahul bayt (a.s.) have a history of fighting oppression and tyranny; therefore, do you not think these leaders would have protected the Christians from extremism? I believe so.

 

I admire Christians, especially in America; everyone nowadays think it is "hip" to condemn religion, especially the religious Christians.  Although sometimes Conservative (politically) Christians demonize Muslims--this contradicts Christianity anyway--I still support Christians in their plight because as a religious individual (and believing the same God), I struggle with them.  When Christianity is insulted, Islam is insulted, because they are a cousin faith. I think more Muslims in the West need to voice their support for Christians.

 

Like that Christian woman who refused to issue a gay marriage license; while I do not know her opinion on Muslims (she could be a bigot in that regard)--she has a lot of courage to oppose such a culturally accepted practice. She went to prison for her faith and commitment to God.  I do not know if I would have the same courage as her in that situation.

Edited by ~ThePond~
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^ Where do you live? Christians are not persecuted in America and never have been unless you count the times they have persecuted each other. They have also historically persecuted other religions, but that's another story. There is no state religion in this secular nation, but Christians can worship, live, and preach as they please. Have never seen anyone being interfered with yet.

Once again.....The woman in jail is there NOT because of her faith, which she has a right to, but because she REFUSED TO DO A TAXPAYER PAID JOB she swore an oath to do when she ran for the office ( she knew same-sex marriage was coming) and kept taking taxpayer money while refusing to do it ,instead of resigning like an adult . She is now is threatening to interfere with other clerks that are doing their jobs and finally handing out marriage licenses to their fellow citizens again now that she is gone. Nobody has been able to get a marriage license in that county, gay or straight, because she refused to hand out licenses to anyone in protest of gay marriage. But she still took the money from both gay and straight taxpayers to pay her bills. What kind of morality is that?

I took the same oath she did...the exact same one. If I felt I could not do my job due to my religion,I would resign, not selfishly mess up my fellow citizens lives.

It's like me coming to you, a county clerk paid by my tax dollars, for a dog license and you refusing to sell me one because you don't think I should have one for a pet, even though my own religion doesn't forbid it.

post-183511-0-84728500-1442118494_thumb.

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Actually, most real Christians, like the Orthodox and Catholic living in Australia, are unable to actually partake in any of the religious processions and festivities (apart from Christmas and Easter). Things like the Day of Assumption, the birthday of the Virgin Mary and many other days which are important to use, and months, go unmentioned, because of the fact we are unable to have processions, that most of the churches here, unless specifically for a particular ethnic minority or sect, do not abide by the same traditions.

I myself, as a Catholic, have gone to see other churches, Anglican, Protestant, "Assembly of God" type places, and have been told that "You are going to Hell for your beliefs!". 

I think if given the chance, most of these other "Christians" would go out and hurt or try to destroy Catholics and Orthodox, kind of like what happened with North and South Ireland up until the early 1990s when Anglicans would blow up groups of Catholics in a soccer stadium while attending a game.

And when I am talking about the Catholics (from which I am a part of), I mean those of the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern regions. Everyone assumes all Christians are the same, when they have no clue how different we are, even from Catholic to Celtic Catholics and that. Big differences in traditions and ideologies.

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Actually, most real Christians, like the Orthodox and Catholic living in Australia, are unable to actually partake in any of the religious processions and festivities (apart from Christmas and Easter). Things like the Day of Assumption, the birthday of the Virgin Mary and many other days which are important to use, and months, go unmentioned, because of the fact we are unable to have processions, that most of the churches here, unless specifically for a particular ethnic minority or sect, do not abide by the same traditions.

I myself, as a Catholic, have gone to see other churches, Anglican, Protestant, "Assembly of God" type places, and have been told that "You are going to Hell for your beliefs!". 

I think if given the chance, most of these other "Christians" would go out and hurt or try to destroy Catholics and Orthodox, kind of like what happened with North and South Ireland up until the early 1990s when Anglicans would blow up groups of Catholics in a soccer stadium while attending a game.

And when I am talking about the Catholics (from which I am a part of), I mean those of the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern regions. Everyone assumes all Christians are the same, when they have no clue how different we are, even from Catholic to Celtic Catholics and that. Big differences in traditions and ideologies.

True about the differences...and that some Christians think others are going to hell....but most generally don't interfere with each other too much in contemporary times ( although they booted each other out of whole colonies in the beginning of the nation) but why can't you have your processions? But I agree with you on this part...if the fundamentalist Christian extremists in this country got their way, every Muslim would be dead first, then Buddhists and Hindus....followed swiftly by Catholics, Orthodox, and anyone else who didn't subscribe to their theology.

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^ Where do you live? Christians are not persecuted in America and never have been unless you count the times they have persecuted each other. They have also historically persecuted other religions, but that's another story. There is no state religion in this secular nation, but Christians can worship, live, and preach as they please. Have never seen anyone being interfered with yet.

Once again.....The woman in jail is there NOT because of her faith, which she has a right to, but because she REFUSED TO DO A TAXPAYER PAID JOB she swore an oath to do when she ran for the office ( she knew same-sex marriage was coming) and kept taking taxpayer money while refusing to do it ,instead of resigning like an adult . She is now is threatening to interfere with other clerks that are doing their jobs and finally handing out marriage licenses to their fellow citizens again now that she is gone. Nobody has been able to get a marriage license in that county, gay or straight, because she refused to hand out licenses to anyone in protest of gay marriage. But she still took the money from both gay and straight taxpayers to pay her bills. What kind of morality is that?

I took the same oath she did...the exact same one. If I felt I could not do my job due to my religion,I would resign, not selfishly mess up my fellow citizens lives.

It's like me coming to you, a county clerk paid by my tax dollars, for a dog license and you refusing to sell me one because you don't think I should have one for a pet, even though my own religion doesn't forbid it.

 

Christians are condemned socially in America.  Many of the youth today mock their beliefs, deem them foolish for believing in a "big man in the sky," etc. I'm not necessarily speaking about legally because according to law, you cannot discriminate against Muslims on account of their faith; alas, that still occurs. I am from a liberal arts college, and I see how people hypocritically defame Christian beliefs, but then support Muslims because of "multiculturalism." I know many atheists who say nothing about Islam but are all too ready to mock Christianity openly and loudly. 

 

She refused on account of faith; maybe she wished to fight a religious belief important to her life.  There is separation between Church and State, but she is motivated by religious intentions.  I imagine she wanted to fight to keep her job and her beliefs; maybe she does not want to lose the income/has a family to support.  

 

As Muslims we cannot support gay marriage, not to say we cannot love our fellow humans, but this contradicts our belief system as well. 

 

​Catholics are criticized by the Christian community as well; some call them "Mary worshippers," "Pope worshippers," etc.  I find this idiotic thinking the same as other Muslims who call other sects "kafir." From what I've seen, Catholics are more religious and stand by their principles; its rather stupid that more secular Christians call them un-Christian.  My family is Catholic so I see this quite often

Edited by ~ThePond~
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True about the differences...and that some Christians think others are going to hell....but most generally don't interfere with each other too much in contemporary times ( although they booted each other out of whole colonies in the beginning of the nation) but why can't you have your processions? But I agree with you on this part...if the fundamentalist Christian extremists in this country got their way, every Muslim would be dead first, then Buddhists and Hindus....followed swiftly by Catholics, Orthodox, and anyone else who didn't subscribe to their theology.

 

Well they say council rulings, etc. I don't believe that though.

Yeah I would say first it would be Catholics and Orthodox, then Muslims. Most that I know are quite hostile towards us. And if they aren't then they are very weird and kind of act high or spacey around us, like they try to entice us in with their weird-ness (having icecreams when going to worship, offering free food, "Christian Rock Music" and all that other weird stuff).

Also we are often referred to as "idol worshippers" by these other Christians and also ridiculed for our belief in the Virgin Mary. The hate from them is strong towards us.  Very strong. We also cop it sometimes from both these other Christians, as well as the Muslims community here (predominantly Shia) who call us kaffir as well, and also say "Why do you worship the Pope?". Education my friends is important for opening the eyes of others.

 

I also really laugh when some talk about Muslims. They haven't a clue. They say stupid things like "Let them go worship their Allah-God" or "Their God is Mohammed"... Really I get the urge to slap them when I hear this...

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Well they say council rulings, etc. I don't believe that though.

Yeah I would say first it would be Catholics and Orthodox, then Muslims. Most that I know are quite hostile towards us. And if they aren't then they are very weird and kind of act high or spacey around us, like they try to entice us in with their weird-ness (having icecreams when going to worship, offering free food, "Christian Rock Music" and all that other weird stuff).

Also we are often referred to as "idol worshippers" by these other Christians and also ridiculed for our belief in the Virgin Mary. The hate from them is strong towards us.  Very strong. We also cop it sometimes from both these other Christians, as well as the Muslims community here (predominantly Shia) who call us kaffir as well, and also say "Why do you worship the Pope?". Education my friends is important for opening the eyes of others.

 

I also really laugh when some talk about Muslims. They haven't a clue. They say stupid things like "Let them go worship their Allah-God" or "Their God is Mohammed"... Really I get the urge to slap them when I hear this...

Shiites who call you idol worshippers are illogical. These same Shiites would be infuriated if Sunnis called them Ahul Bayt/Ali worshippers

 

And the concept of the pope and Ahul Bayt a.s. are similar.  Both see these figures as maintainers of religious knowledge: not "God-like" figures

Edited by ~ThePond~
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Christians are condemned socially in America. Many of the youth today mock their beliefs, deem them foolish for believing in a "big man in the sky," etc. I'm not necessarily speaking about legally because according to law, you cannot discriminate against Muslims on account of their faith; alas, that still occurs. I am from a liberal arts college, and I see how people hypocritically defame Christian beliefs, but then support Muslims because of "multiculturalism." I know many atheists who say nothing about Islam but are all too ready to mock Christianity openly and loudly.

She refused on account of faith; maybe she wished to fight a religious belief important to her life. There is separation between Church and State, but she is motivated by religious intentions. I imagine she wanted to fight to keep her job and her beliefs; maybe she does not want to lose the income/has a family to support.

As Muslims we cannot support gay marriage, not to say we cannot love our fellow humans, but this contradicts our belief system as well.

​Catholics are criticized by the Christian community as well; some call them "Mary worshippers," "Pope worshippers," etc. I find this idiotic thinking the same as other Muslims who call other sects "kafir." From what I've seen, Catholics are more religious and stand by their principles; its rather stupid that more secular Christians call them un-Christian. My family is Catholic so I see this quite often

Christians are condemned socially in America. Many of the youth today mock their beliefs, deem them foolish for believing in a "big man in the sky," etc. I'm not necessarily speaking about legally because according to law, you cannot discriminate against Muslims on account of their faith; alas, that still occurs. I am from a liberal arts college, and I see how people hypocritically defame Christian beliefs, but then support Muslims because of "multiculturalism." I know many atheists who say nothing about Islam but are all too ready to mock Christianity openly and loudly.

She refused on account of faith; maybe she wished to fight a religious belief important to her life. There is separation between Church and State, but she is motivated by religious intentions. I imagine she wanted to fight to keep her job and her beliefs; maybe she does not want to lose the income/has a family to support.

As Muslims we cannot support gay marriage, not to say we cannot love our fellow humans, but this contradicts our belief system as well.

​Catholics are criticized by the Christian community as well; some call them "Mary worshippers," "Pope worshippers," etc. I find this idiotic thinking the same as other Muslims who call other sects "kafir." From what I've seen, Catholics are more religious and stand by their principles; its rather stupid that more secular Christians call them un-Christian. My family is Catholic so I see this quite often

I live in America and have all my life. Christians aren't made fun of any more than any other group. Some people do not like religion and have the right to say so... but that is not equal to persecuting a follower like some are in other countries. No one is being barred from practicing their faith or killed for it. We have freedom of religion and freedom from religion if we desire. Christians mock atheists publicly all the time,too. I hear them. Is that persecution?

Yes, there is separation of Church and State....exactly why she should resign. You have every right to not believe in gay marriage if your faith tells you not to....you have no right to refuse to do a secular government taxpayer-supported job you have promised to do and take money for doing. In fact, you should not seek that job, as she did. Marriage equality has been on the road to legality for at least ten years and she knew it when she ran for office. If her family suffers for her faith, so be it but I doubt it will. She probably doesn't need to support them..she's been married four times ( against her own church's teachings) and her two kids ( now grown methinks and in no need of support) were conceived in adultery (her husband at the time was not the father...how embarrassing)and born out of wedlock after she divorced him . Sorry, but I'm tired of this hypocritical bigoted idiot who screams her rights are being abrogated while she denies legal rights to others being held up as some kind of Christian martyr and example to me by the professional fundamentalist Christian whiners who keep making excuses for her.

Catholics around here are not bothered by " secular Christians". They get along well with them. They are bothered by fundamentalist Christians, who say they are going to hell...with the Muslims.

Well they say council rulings, etc. I don't believe that though.

Yeah I would say first it would be Catholics and Orthodox, then Muslims. Most that I know are quite hostile towards us. And if they aren't then they are very weird and kind of act high or spacey around us, like they try to entice us in with their weird-ness (having icecreams when going to worship, offering free food, "Christian Rock Music" and all that other weird stuff).Also we are often referred to as "idol worshippers" by these other Christians and also ridiculed for our belief in the Virgin Mary. The hate from them is strong towards us. Very strong. We also cop it sometimes from both these other Christians, as well as the Muslims community here (predominantly Shia) who call us kaffir as well, and also say "Why do you worship the Pope?". Education my friends is important for opening the eyes of others.

I also really laugh when some talk about Muslims. They haven't a clue. They say stupid things like "Let them go worship their Allah-God" or "Their God is Mohammed"... Really I get the urge to slap them when I hear this...

I don't live in Australia, but that sounds like interference in freedom of religious practice. I thought Australia's laws were similar to the US. Yes, religious ignorance is rife. I got a decent education in World History and Comparative Religions, but some people must have slept through that class.....plus, I find those kinds of churches don't exactly attract the Rhodes Scholars sort of folk.

Edited by LeftCoastMom
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I live in America and have all my life. Christians aren't made fun of any more than any other group. Some people do not like religion and have the right to say so... but that is not equal to persecuting a follower like some are in other countries. No one is being barred from practicing their faith or killed for it. We have freedom of religion and freedom from religion if we desire. Christians mock atheists publicly all the time,too. I hear them. Is that persecution?

Yes, there is separation of Church and State....exactly why she should resign. You have every right to not believe in gay marriage if your faith tells you not to....you have no right to refuse to do a secular government taxpayer-supported job you have promised to do and take money for doing. In fact, you should not seek that job, as she did. Marriage equality has been on the road to legality for at least ten years and she knew it when she ran for office. If her family suffers for her faith, so be it but I doubt it will. She probably doesn't need to support them..she's been married four times ( against her own church's teachings) and her two kids ( now grown methinks and in no need of support) were conceived in adultery (her husband at the time was not the father...how embarrassing)and born out of wedlock after she divorced him . Sorry, but I'm tired of this hypocritical bigoted idiot who screams her rights are being abrogated while she denies legal rights to others being held up as some kind of Christian martyr and example to me by the professional fundamentalist Christian whiners who keep making excuses for her.

Catholics around here are not bothered by " secular Christians". They get along well with them. They are bothered by fundamentalist Christians, who say they are going to hell...with the Muslims.

I don't live in Australia, but that sounds like interference in freedom of religious practice. I thought Australia's laws were similar to the US. Yes, religious ignorance is rife. I got a decent education in World History and Comparative Religions, but some people must have slept through that class.....plus, I find those kinds of churches don't exactly attract the Rhodes Scholars sort of folk.

Yes true, those kind of "churches" seem to attract the simple and easily mislead people. The ones who are easily caught up in the rock music and free food. Kind of like the street dawah dudes who get random no bodies to become "muslims".

Shiites who call you idol worshippers are illogical. These same Shiites would be infuriated if Sunnis called them Ahul Bayt/Ali worshippers

 

And the concept of the pope and Ahul Bayt a.s. are similar.  Both see these figures as maintainers of religious knowledge: not "God-like" figures

thats right, the very same people! and yes they do get angry about it when a Sunni says that about them. Very angry. Yet they will do it to us and say it is ok.

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Alas. Just because you haven't seen discrimination does not mean it doesn't exist. Yes liberal Christians do mock more conservative Christians for their beliefs as well. I've seen it and heard it. Conservative Christians shouldn't have to sugar coat their creed because the general population is becoming more liberal. I'm done with this thread anyway, I just wanted to say my opinion and support my fellow Christians, but you would rather derail all my opinions. I don't see why you have to smear the woman on this forum. As a Christian she is scripturally not allowed to approve gay marriage. Islamic jurisprudence says the same thing. It doesn't matter if you live in a secular country, we must follow Gods law. I'm not talking about having gay friends or hanging out with them, I'm saying legally mandating gay marriage, it doesn't matter if gay marriage was coming sooner or later, she didn't take the job with the intent of issuing same sex marriages--she did it to issue heterosexual ones.

This is how Christians are mocked ;

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/call-me-bald-again-i-double-dare-you?utm_term=.ty4QGXRLRz

Originally called "the most wtf stories in the bible"

This site does many other sort of trash like this. But of course they would never do that to Muslims.

Edited by ~ThePond~
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Alas. Just because you haven't seen discrimination does not mean it doesn't exist. Yes liberal Christians do mock more conservative Christians for their beliefs as well. I've seen it and heard it. Conservative Christians shouldn't have to sugar coat their creed because the general population is becoming more liberal. I'm done with this thread anyway, I just wanted to say my opinion and support my fellow Christians, but you would rather derail all my opinions. I don't see why you have to smear the woman on this forum. As a Christian she is scripturally not allowed to approve gay marriage. Islamic jurisprudence says the same thing. It doesn't matter if you live in a secular country, we must follow Gods law. I'm not talking about having gay friends or hanging out with them, I'm saying legally mandating gay marriage, it doesn't matter if gay marriage was coming sooner or later, she didn't take the job with the intent of issuing same sex marriages--she did it to issue heterosexual ones.

This is how Christians are mocked ;

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/call-me-bald-again-i-double-dare-you?utm_term=.ty4QGXRLRz

Originally called "the most wtf stories in the bible"

This site does many other sort of trash like this. But of course they would never do that to Muslims.

wait, i did not say anything against you!!

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Yes true, those kind of "churches" seem to attract the simple and easily mislead people. The ones who are easily caught up in the rock music and free food. Kind of like the street dawah dudes who get random no bodies to become "muslims".

Well, I don't know what a " street dawah dude" is, but the holy rock n roller fundamentalist churches are everywhere. One big one got established in a nearby town and I told people " these folks are going to be trouble". Wasn't a year before they were trying to poach the youth from mainline moderate churches and their clueless parents , luring kids into their activities,filling their heads full of nonsense,and sending them out to proselytize other kids. The last straw for me came when they got a " Christian Club" established at the local public school ( Catholics and Orthodox need not apply) and their little disciples tried to drag my Catholic nieces , who wanted no part of them, into their " prayer room" to " get saved" one day at lunch. They called me in tears " Who will help us..it's a cult, I tell you!"The school officials got a visit from my family next day and we told them the next time those "born-again Christian students" laid a hand on any of our family, they could explain to the good Christian colleges they were trying to get scholarships to why they had assault charges on their records. Things were better at the school after that. They were still just as egregious on the streets, though.

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Alas. Just because you haven't seen discrimination does not mean it doesn't exist. Yes liberal Christians do mock more conservative Christians for their beliefs as well. I've seen it and heard it. Conservative Christians shouldn't have to sugar coat their creed because the general population is becoming more liberal. I'm done with this thread anyway, I just wanted to say my opinion and support my fellow Christians, but you would rather derail all my opinions. I don't see why you have to smear the woman on this forum. As a Christian she is scripturally not allowed to approve gay marriage. Islamic jurisprudence says the same thing. It doesn't matter if you live in a secular country, we must follow Gods law. I'm not talking about having gay friends or hanging out with them, I'm saying legally mandating gay marriage, it doesn't matter if gay marriage was coming sooner or later, she didn't take the job with the intent of issuing same sex marriages--she did it to issue heterosexual ones.

This is how Christians are mocked ;

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/call-me-bald-again-i-double-dare-you?utm_term=.ty4QGXRLRz

Originally called "the most wtf stories in the bible"

This site does many other sort of trash like this. But of course they would never do that to Muslims.

No, she didn't take the job " to issue heterosexual marriage licenses " or " white-only licenses" or " non-Muslim licenses"....when she took the job she promised to uphold the Constitution and follow the law NOT the Bible. You have lived in America and don't know basic American PolySci? The law says gays have the right to marry now. She has to follow it. Same as the law once changed and allowed people of different races to marry and many clerks didn't like it. I took the same oath. There was no religion in it. So if it one day clashes with your religious beliefs ,compromise your beliefs and do what you are paid to do ,or get out of the job. I don't know why this is such a hard concept. Your church can refuse to marry gays,ergo, your religious freedom is intact... but your county clerk cannot refuse to issue civil secular legal licenses. She was, btw, refusing to issue licenses to heterosexual couples as well ...how do you feel about that?

Why should this woman be given a pass on her life? This is all public record. If she were defending marriage equality the fundie Christians would be waving her profligate past like a flag screaming about what an immoral creature she was..guaranteed. They hate being called out on their hypocrisy when someone they can use for media time gets outed as a mess. Gays are bashed all the time and have been for a darn long time. I think she can take a little heat for her brief 15 minutes of fame... since people are already putting up memes of how bored they are of her already.

Lastly, this is a country where we have freedom of speech. People mock Christians. People mock Muslims. People mock atheists. People mock conservatives. People mock liberals. People mock people of different races, creeds, and ethnicities. So long as you do not advocate something that directly leads to harm,it's usually considered legal. Hate speech is narrowly defined so as not to interfere too much with that. I've had plenty of horrible racist things said to me and my family all my life, so I could write a book on discrimination. But all of us have to suck at least some of it up. Or debate them back. But I'm tired of the whining when Christians don't get their way and can't impose their will on everybody else.

Edited by LeftCoastMom
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Well, I don't know what a " street dawah dude" is, but the holy rock n roller fundamentalist churches are everywhere. One big one got established in a nearby town and I told people " these folks are going to be trouble". Wasn't a year before they were trying to poach the youth from mainline moderate churches and their clueless parents , luring kids into their activities,filling their heads full of nonsense,and sending them out to proselytize other kids. The last straw for me came when they got a " Christian Club" established at the local public school ( Catholics and Orthodox need not apply) and their little disciples tried to drag my Catholic nieces , who wanted no part of them, into their " prayer room" to " get saved" one day at lunch. They called me in tears " Who will help us..it's a cult, I tell you!"The school officials got a visit from my family next day and we told them the next time those "born-again Christian students" laid a hand on any of our family, they could explain to the good Christian colleges they were trying to get scholarships to why they had assault charges on their records. Things were better at the school after that. They were still just as egregious on the streets, though.

 

Yes, same happened when I went to school and at university as well. It also happened here recently, a Lutheran church was built and suddenly all these people from the Catholic church here began dropping off and started attending church at this Lutheran assembly hall. Not to stereotype, but all the people who left the church were of african origin, and the guy running the church is a white dude who looks like he is from 1956, and talks like he has something to hide, like he comes off as nice, but in a really odd way. Word is that they paid a lot of people large sums of money to begin coming to their church. I would not doubt that for a second. I have seen many of these really extreme christian churches around here do that. Angers me really too as to how people sway for money.

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Yes, same happened when I went to school and at university as well. It also happened here recently, a Lutheran church was built and suddenly all these people from the Catholic church here began dropping off and started attending church at this Lutheran assembly hall. Not to stereotype, but all the people who left the church were of african origin, and the guy running the church is a white dude who looks like he is from 1956, and talks like he has something to hide, like he comes off as nice, but in a really odd way. Word is that they paid a lot of people large sums of money to begin coming to their church. I would not doubt that for a second. I have seen many of these really extreme christian churches around here do that. Angers me really too as to how people sway for money.

Wow...things must be different in Australia. Lutherans are pretty mellow here and never bother anyone. In fact, most mainstream churches get along well with each other and other faiths as well in this area. The only issues are with the non-denominational fundamentalist mega-church people. They have done some strange and disturbing things. Anti-Catholic, Islamophobic, right-wing ,really weird theology. One of my sons was invited to go to a service. He was a strong kid and knew his own beliefs, so I said okay. He came back convinced there were some people in the leadership who were a bit twisted and the worship service was surreal. Never wanted to see the inside of that place again and he doesn't scare easy.

So...getting back to the subject...I think if the Shias dominated the world they would need truckloads of headache medicine for just dealing with the squabbling Christians...:-)

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Salam/Shalom/Peace Christianvisitor,

 

If Shias dominated the world, many people who identify as Christians would possibly die first. Why? Because sadly many Christians would possibly fight them. Many Christians do not obey Jesus Christ’s commands to love neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:25-37) and love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). :(

 

Vlad the Impaler is one such example. The following are quotes concerning him: (I boldened some.)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/yimcatholic/2011/10/because-dracula-was-catholic-oh-my.html

 

 “Do you, gentle reader know that Vlad Dracul III, died on the field of battle in Transylvania fighting the advancing Muslim armies of the Ottoman Empire? I’m not saying that is a good thing, but it is a fact.”

 

...

 

“It might even have been this day, or Christmas Day, even. We do not know. History, admittedly, what little that I’ve read, shows that Vlad was a Catholic, and he died protecting his lands from invasion. Defending his homeland, Vlad fights back.”

 

While I don't think Vlad the Impaler was a Crusader, the Catholic Crusaders fought long and hard against the (mostly Sunni?) Muslims long time ago. Some people forget that, but many Muslim people, many Jewish people, and many Christians of other groups don’t forget the Crusades. The Crusaders fought to keep Muslims armies out of their land, as well as to “rescue” Jerusalem from Muslim armies. (Crusaders horribly killed thousands of Muslims, Jews and other Christians when “liberating” Jerusalem from Muslims.) :(

 

Why go into the past? Because patterns of the past can help one to see what could happen in the future. If either Shia or Sunni Muslims try to dominate the world, many Christians could possibly and sadly disobey Jesus Christ’s commands to love their neighbors and enemies. An Atheist friend commented once that Christians who take Jesus’ commands to love literally are rare. So, many Christians would probably follow the Crusaders’ example and fight Muslims who were trying to dominate them. By the way, the Muslims succeeded in taking over the Byzantine (which was considered a Christian) empire, as well as the Persian Empire. (The Byzantine and Persian empires had sadly been fighting each other before that.) Muslims also succeeded in conquering Spain for awhile. Many Catholic Spaniards did not like that very much and fought them.

 

Christians have also sadly fought each other. Catholic Germans fought against Catholics of other European countries, and visa versa during World War II. In the same way, Protestant Germans fought against other Protestants. Before Hitler, Europe experienced fighting among Christians of different groups (Catholic/Protestant) for centuries. Both groups had in common the sad issue of disobeying Jesus Christ's command to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies.

 

Thank God, most Catholics and Protestants nowadays agree to disagree and many do love each other. :) My Catholic friends love me and I love them. Catholic/Protestant history was sadly not always like that. Both sides have a horrible history of persecuting both sides and condemning each other as heretics going to hell sigh. God is the Judge however and we are commanded to love. 

 

Back to the idea of Shia domination, most Christians nowadays like freedom way too much to give that up and submit to Muslims, whether Shia or Sunni. Many would agree with Patrick Henry’s rebellion against the British: “Give me liberty or give me death.” Personally, I wish that Christians never killed other people, including Muslims. I wish Christians always obeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors and enemies. I do believe God will hold all people who profess to be Christians accountable for if they disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors and enemies.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Wow...things must be different in Australia. Lutherans are pretty mellow here and never bother anyone. In fact, most mainstream churches get along well with each other and other faiths as well in this area. The only issues are with the non-denominational fundamentalist mega-church people. They have done some strange and disturbing things. Anti-Catholic, Islamophobic, right-wing ,really weird theology. One of my sons was invited to go to a service. He was a strong kid and knew his own beliefs, so I said okay. He came back convinced there were some people in the leadership who were a bit twisted and the worship service was surreal. Never wanted to see the inside of that place again and he doesn't scare easy.So...getting back to the subject...I think if the Shias dominated the world they would need truckloads of headache medicine for just dealing with the squabbling Christians...:-)

@LeftCoastMom- Those nondenominational, rock'n'roll mega church types scared me too. Something very fundamentally wrong with them. One of the reasons why I didn't like living with my dad. Before I was Muslim, I used to be in a church band fronted by my uncle and one day, they decided to do this song and we had the kids singing. So far, so good, I'm just following along and playing guitar, reading the music and then I came upon a couple of disturbing lyrics saying stuff like "I don't need life, give me Jesus" which was all the more disturbing and surreal with the kids singing it. I wanted to just wheel off stage and go home, eventually I did complain about it at the next family dinner and after that, they never played that song. Still gives me the heebie jeebies how they teach kids really strange ideas.

@Christianlady- What do you mean by this: Vlad was a Catholic, and he died protecting his lands from invasion. Defending his homeland, Vlad fights back.” While I understand that he was a defender of Transylvania in modern day Romania and he professed the Catholic faith, his actions say otherwise. In fact, he impaled thousands of innocent men, women and children and cooked the children of some of his victims and forced their mothers eat them. This was his idea of fighting back, he was a murderous tyrant and a coward and used fear and intimidation, if anything, he was not a Christian. Anyway, I agree with you on that he was far from a decent human being and the fact that would be people who would like fight like Vlad Tepes, I am confused, I sincerely hope that you weren't trying to defend or justify his actions.

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@Christianlady- What do you mean by this: Vlad was a Catholic, and he died protecting his lands from invasion. Defending his homeland, Vlad fights back.”

 

 

Salam/Shalom/Peace Gaius Caesar,

 

I am sorry; I forgot to write the name of the author who wrote "Vlad was a Catholic, and he died protecting his lands from invasion." His name is Frank Weathers. The link is where I found his quote:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/yimcatholic/2011/10/because-dracula-was-catholic-oh-my.html

 

 

As far as I know, Frank Weathers is Catholic (I don't know him personally). While I do not agree with many things Catholics believe, I enjoy learning about Catholic views from Catholic people. I've been to mass several times with Catholic friends who have kindly invited me. :)

 

While I understand that he was a defender of Transylvania in modern day Romania and he professed the Catholic faith, his actions say otherwise. In fact, he impaled thousands of innocent men, women and children and cooked the children of some of his victims and forced their mothers eat them.

 

 

That is horribly evil. :( Sadly, some Protestants and some Catholics have tortured, raped, enslaved, forced converted, stolen from, and killed people, which is not what Jesus Christ commands his followers to do. :(

 

That's why obeying Jesus Christ's commands to love is so incredibly important! Both Catholics and Protestants, as well as Orthodox Christians and any other group that identifies as Christian, can obey Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors and enemies!  :) Jesus Christ said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments." - John 14:5 (ESV)

 

Jesus confirmed the 2 greatest commands: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.  On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets. - Matthew 22:37b-40 (ESV)

 

While many Christians throughout the centuries ignore this command, his apostles who walked and talked with him learned to obey it too: “Love your enemies” – Matthew 5:44b; Luke 6:27b, Luke 6:35a (ESV)

 

Anyway, I agree with you on that he was far from a decent human being and the fact that would be people who would like fight like Vlad Tepes, I am confused, I sincerely hope that you weren't trying to defend or justify his actions.

 

 

No, I was not defending his actions. I wrote about him and the Crusaders because they fought Muslim domination.  I do sadly think that many Christians, especially in the West, would disobey Jesus Christ’s commands to love and would physically fight Muslims (whether Shia or Sunni) if Muslims attempted to dominate them. Is that what Jesus Christ wants his followers to do? No. Jesus Christ wants his followers to love both neighbors and enemies.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Alas. Just because you haven't seen discrimination does not mean it doesn't exist. Yes liberal Christians do mock more conservative Christians for their beliefs as well. I've seen it and heard it. Conservative Christians shouldn't have to sugar coat their creed because the general population is becoming more liberal. I'm done with this thread anyway, I just wanted to say my opinion and support my fellow Christians, but you would rather derail all my opinions. I don't see why you have to smear the woman on this forum. As a Christian she is scripturally not allowed to approve gay marriage. Islamic jurisprudence says the same thing. It doesn't matter if you live in a secular country, we must follow Gods law. I'm not talking about having gay friends or hanging out with them, I'm saying legally mandating gay marriage, it doesn't matter if gay marriage was coming sooner or later, she didn't take the job with the intent of issuing same sex marriages--she did it to issue heterosexual ones.

This is how Christians are mocked ;

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tomchivers/call-me-bald-again-i-double-dare-you?utm_term=.ty4QGXRLRz

Originally called "the most wtf stories in the bible"

This site does many other sort of trash like this. But of course they would never do that to Muslims.

 

Salam/Shalom/Peace ThePond,

 

Christians being mocked is not a new thing. Jesus Christ said, "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:11-12 (ESV)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat+5&version=ESV

 

 

It is very kind of you to support Christians. :)

 

As a Christian, I do believe homosexuality is wrong, as well as adultery and incest and all the sexual sins God forbids. While I admire the guts of Kim Davis and her conviction to stand up for what she believes, I don't think refusing to give marriage licenses was the best idea.

 

The reasons are the following:

 

1. If Christians in public office are going to discriminate based on people who have homosexual relationships, why stop there? Why not next refuse to give marriage licenses to people who have committed adultery or had sex before marriage? If a Christian can refuse to give marriage licenses to people who have homosexual relationships, she or he can also under the same idea refuse marriage licenses to heterosexual people who have committed adultery or had sex before marriage. While it is easy to see when 2 people of the same gender want to get married, it would require interrogation to see if people have not committed other sexual sins. It would thus require making Christianity part of state law in order to refuse marriage licenses to gay couples or couples who have committed adultery or had sex before marriage. However, thank God making church and state one is against the Constitution!!! :) (This was due to the disaster of Christian wars against other Christians in Europe.)

 

2. Jesus Christ did not command his followers to force other people to believe what we believe. This is the most important reason. When Jesus Christ ordered his followers to make disciples (Matthew 28:18-20), that doesn't mean forcing people who reject him to obey the Bible.  While Christians are to share what Jesus commanded, it is up to each individual whether they will accept and obey him (be a disciple) or reject him. Christians are to respect each person's decision.

 

For example, when some people abandoned Jesus, Jesus allowed them to go and just focused on his faithful followers: (I boldened some and put Jesus' words in red.)

 

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?”

 

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, - John 6:63-69 (ESV)  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+6&version=ESV

 

When Jesus sent his apostles out to teach people throughout Israel, he told them what to do if they were treated badly:  (I boldened some and put Jesus' words in red.)

 

"And whatever town or village you enter, find out who is worthy in it and stay there until you depart. As you enter the house, greet it. And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 

 

And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

 

 “Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues, and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles. 

 

When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10&version=ESV

 

Christians can and should learn from Jesus' specific commands to his apostles. That is why I think the best thing for her to have done would have been to "leave" her job and kindly explain why, citing the Bible.

 

3. Jesus Christ did not specifically mention homosexuality. He also did not specifically mention some other sexual sins either, but he was talking to Jewish people who already most likely knew what the sexual sins are. Many people in the Roman Empire, which was oppressing the Jewish people in Jesus' time, engaged in homosexual relations. Jesus Christ did not command his Jewish followers to go and force the Romans to stop homosexual relations! Jesus promised them the Holy Spirit and commanded them to witness to others about him. :)

 

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” - Acts 1:8 (ESV)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%201&version=ESV

 

So, while I admire her guts and convictions, I think she could have quit and explained, quoting the Bible, why she does not want to give out marriage licenses to homosexual couples. Of course not everyone would agree with her, but refusing to give marriage licenses takes away the right of other people to reject her convictions.

 

I believe homosexuality is sin, but I am not going to refuse to serve people who disagree with me.

 

One of my friends identifies as gay, and I support his right to marry who he wants. He knows I disagree with him. I've quoted the Bible to him. He thinks the Bible verses that show God condemns homosexuality are not important. That is his right. I am still his friend. I am not his judge. God is both his and my judge, and I did what I believe God wanted me to do: share with him what the Bible said out of love for him. Whether he ever accepts it or not is between him and God. My job is to love him who is my neighbor. Because I love him, I also pray for him, that God will show him someday that homosexuality is sin. Will my husband and I go to his wedding when he gets married? No. However, I won't try to stop him or take away his rights even though I disagree with his lifestyle.

 

Peace and God bless you

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^ Where do you live? Christians are not persecuted in America and never have been unless you count the times they have persecuted each other. They have also historically persecuted other religions, but that's another story. There is no state religion in this secular nation, but Christians can worship, live, and preach as they please. Have never seen anyone being interfered with yet.

Once again.....The woman in jail is there NOT because of her faith, which she has a right to, but because she REFUSED TO DO A TAXPAYER PAID JOB she swore an oath to do when she ran for the office ( she knew same-sex marriage was coming) and kept taking taxpayer money while refusing to do it ,instead of resigning like an adult . She is now is threatening to interfere with other clerks that are doing their jobs and finally handing out marriage licenses to their fellow citizens again now that she is gone. Nobody has been able to get a marriage license in that county, gay or straight, because she refused to hand out licenses to anyone in protest of gay marriage. But she still took the money from both gay and straight taxpayers to pay her bills. What kind of morality is that?

I took the same oath she did...the exact same one. If I felt I could not do my job due to my religion,I would resign, not selfishly mess up my fellow citizens lives.

It's like me coming to you, a county clerk paid by my tax dollars, for a dog license and you refusing to sell me one because you don't think I should have one for a pet, even though my own religion doesn't forbid it.

 

CA X2,

 

And God said, "Let's give the rainbow to the homosexuals." "We showed our might on Sodom and Gomorrah and nobody cares, so let's just give in"  Cafe mocha latte latte, with a twist of gerbil genital cinnamon, gimme a break, I take my  coffe black.

 

How do you separate your paycheck from gay and non gay taxpayers? What is she supposed to do? Calculate how many taxpayers are gay in her county and only take a percentage? Should anti-gay taxpayers pay the difference? This is a goofy argument. 

 

What oath did she, (or you) take that says you will uphold whatever demise this evil world comes up with? You change the rules, the oath should be revised, and if someone says no, then you give them severance and send them on their way.

I blame her spineless management for not having that meeting. 

 

Up here we have an annual gay pride parade. Woohoo, a poop chute pusher's reunion. Tell me why are they allowed to be so proud? Does this mean we should start an "ashamed straight" parade to follow it? A bunch of christians running around in their non-gay underwear looking for hugs...This is what it is coming to. Oh, you don't agree with gay everything? You are a hater. I see so many who go wave a rainbow flag so they don't get persecuted as a hater, this is feeble. Just hours ago I was in a cattle pasture and stepped in that logic more times than I liked. On my shoes, and smelled it in the truck all the way home. 

 

Sorry but we gave the job to a gay guy, because he was gay. They are a visible minority so nobody cares about you or your white, middleaged straight, blue collar, non cripple azz status, nor your family. Get used to it.

 

So many talk the talk, then go with the flow which means get on the 'hate the haters' bandwagon and forget morals...morals only get in the way of progress. 

 

Yeah, no meat for you cuz I'm a vegan. How about using some common sense in an argument? Gay = gay, vegan = vegan. Imagine the power of a gay vegan. {{{shudder}}} 

 

For the last generation the word has been "Stand up for what you believe" "Be your own person" "Let your consciense be your guide" but now you know they didn't really mean it. What they really meant was go with whatever demented flow we decide the world is headed and believe in it. Stand up for what we tell you to believe in. 

Ask Kim, or I. This is the persecution you get when you stand for what you believe. It takes a lot more guts to stand for what you believe than to jump on a bandwagon and ridicule those with morals. 

 

Not saying I agree with her decision, but I respect her for taking that stand. Why? Because nobody takes a stand anymore. The only (second best) thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The best is to coward out and pretend to support it...for fear you be mocked. Jesus said, If you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you. You decide.

 

Problem is we judge the prudes with ignorance and elevate the free radicals so we don't get persecuted. (our weakness is showing) By now you may have noticed I could care less what the world decides is good "karma". <===< another totally misrepresented word in our modern English vocabulary.

 

In this day, if you do not feel persecuted, aka mocked for being a Christian it's because nobody knows you are a Christian and you're not telling. 

 

Somebody asked me the other day of all the X-men, who is the most popular? I guess Bruce Jenner was an inappropriate answer.

boohoo. 

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Hello Son of Placid,

 

Are you angry?

 

Anger doesn't help, while it is a natural human reaction to one's feelings of injustice. (I must sound like such a computer sometimes lol, but I am guilty of letting anger carry me away sometimes and so I have to control my emotions.)

 

I respect Kim Davis' courage and convictions, but one of the great tragedies in Christian history is the hate Christians have given to people who believe and live differently than they do. Jesus Christ very clearly taught his followers to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. He didn't say to only love straight neighbors. People who identify as gay are our neighbors, whether we like it or not. Refusing to serve them is not loving. I don't agree with Kim Davis refusing to serve gays who want to be married. I don't think that is a loving thing to do. I think it would be more loving to leave her job and kindly explain way, citing the Bible. Refusing to serve people however while being ok with serving other people is not loving.

 

As my Mom loves to quote, "Hate the sin; love the sinner." I am a sinner, saved from my sins by the amazing grace and love of God through Jesus Christ. God loves me, yet hates my sin and that's why He saved me from my sin through Jesus Christ. How can I judge people who commit homosexuality (a sin) when I am not perfect? I can't. I also can't force them to believe that homosexuality is a sin. I can tell them what God's Word says and they can reject it or accept it. That's their right, same as it is my right to accept or reject what God's Word says.

 

The falling away and hatred Christians experience from the world was already foretold and is not a surprise. 

Jesus Christ said the following:

 

 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:9-14 (ESV)

 

The end is nearing. Many have fallen away. Many betray and hate one another. Many are led astray by false prophets. Lawlessness is increased (and Jesus is talking about people falling away from God's Law). The love of many grows cold. It's all there. Anger is a natural reaction but fighting against what's happening will not stop it from happening. What Jesus foretold will happen and is happening, and "then the end will come" Has the gospel of the kingdom been proclaimed throughout the whole world yet? Some people say there are still some people who have not heard the gospel. However, more people hear today than possibly any other time in history, thanks to modern technology. The end is near Son of Placid. I don't know when the end will come, but God does and He has everything under His control, no worries.

 

I think that's why Jesus said not to worry. :)

 

Soon we will see Jesus Christ!!! :) :) :)

 

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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CA X2,

 

And God said, "Let's give the rainbow to the homosexuals." "We showed our might on Sodom and Gomorrah and nobody cares, so let's just give in"  Cafe mocha latte latte, with a twist of gerbil genital cinnamon, gimme a break, I take my  coffe black.

 

How do you separate your paycheck from gay and non gay taxpayers? What is she supposed to do? Calculate how many taxpayers are gay in her county and only take a percentage? Should anti-gay taxpayers pay the difference? This is a goofy argument. 

 

What oath did she, (or you) take that says you will uphold whatever demise this evil world comes up with? You change the rules, the oath should be revised, and if someone says no, then you give them severance and send them on their way.

I blame her spineless management for not having that meeting. 

 

Up here we have an annual gay pride parade. Woohoo, a poop chute pusher's reunion. Tell me why are they allowed to be so proud? Does this mean we should start an "ashamed straight" parade to follow it? A bunch of christians running around in their non-gay underwear looking for hugs...This is what it is coming to. Oh, you don't agree with gay everything? You are a hater. I see so many who go wave a rainbow flag so they don't get persecuted as a hater, this is feeble. Just hours ago I was in a cattle pasture and stepped in that logic more times than I liked. On my shoes, and smelled it in the truck all the way home. 

 

Sorry but we gave the job to a gay guy, because he was gay. They are a visible minority so nobody cares about you or your white, middleaged straight, blue collar, non cripple azz status, nor your family. Get used to it.

 

So many talk the talk, then go with the flow which means get on the 'hate the haters' bandwagon and forget morals...morals only get in the way of progress. 

 

Yeah, no meat for you cuz I'm a vegan. How about using some common sense in an argument? Gay = gay, vegan = vegan. Imagine the power of a gay vegan. {{{shudder}}} 

 

For the last generation the word has been "Stand up for what you believe" "Be your own person" "Let your consciense be your guide" but now you know they didn't really mean it. What they really meant was go with whatever demented flow we decide the world is headed and believe in it. Stand up for what we tell you to believe in. 

Ask Kim, or I. This is the persecution you get when you stand for what you believe. It takes a lot more guts to stand for what you believe than to jump on a bandwagon and ridicule those with morals. 

 

Not saying I agree with her decision, but I respect her for taking that stand. Why? Because nobody takes a stand anymore. The only (second best) thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The best is to coward out and pretend to support it...for fear you be mocked. Jesus said, If you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you. You decide.

 

Problem is we judge the prudes with ignorance and elevate the free radicals so we don't get persecuted. (our weakness is showing) By now you may have noticed I could care less what the world decides is good "karma". <===< another totally misrepresented word in our modern English vocabulary.

 

In this day, if you do not feel persecuted, aka mocked for being a Christian it's because nobody knows you are a Christian and you're not telling. 

 

Somebody asked me the other day of all the X-men, who is the most popular? I guess Bruce Jenner was an inappropriate answer.

boohoo.

Take a chill pill. My church doesn't believe in same sex marriage either and publicly says so, but the government isn't forcing it to ( and shouldn't due to the separation of church and state...which no Christian seems to complain about when it works to their advantage)and no one is being persecuted for that. The rest of society debating the merits of your stance is not "persecution." We live in a free society where people can do that. One of my kids openly wondered if Davis has seriously considered what life would be like in a world run by her strict church. Wonder what the punishment would be for her adultery during her first marriage, impregnation by her lover,and having babies out of wedlock? In this "godless, liberal, secular" world, they just cut the umbilical cords and handed the kids to her. Her individual church is engaging in pretzel logic trying to justify her being in a marriage that many fundamentalist Christians,at least those who are consistent, would consider adulterous ( she should go back to her first husband or live celibate until he dies and she is theologically free, they say,especially since the kids are grown and she isn't married to their biological dad anyway)Maybe she should be presented with a scarlet letter? When I bring up her past people squirm away from it saying it isn't relevant,yadda,yadda....yes, it is. If you are committing adultery every time you have sex, according to some peoples interpretation of the Bible , which forbids divorce, why are you passing judgment on gays? If you want them to live celibate, you should, too.

Here's the argument I agree with being made against Davis,sans religion:

1. Taxes are taxes. No one, gay or straight, has any choice about paying them. Unlike in a private transaction ( ie..the wedding cake business) everyone is being forced to pay her for a job she has refused to do for both gay and straight couples. So, yes, some people , only half joking, have called for their taxes to be reduced or her to be fined the amount of time her duties taken up in the issuance of marriage licenses would be it to estimate the fine by the amount of taxes the gay people in the county pay and dock her that. Yes, some right-wingers have already offered to make that up to her...that's their choice if they want to keep doing it ad nauseum assuming she survives another election cycle. I personally hope someone ( maybe gay) runs against her next election and is smart enough to make no reference to marriage equality at all. Takes that power away from the other side and just concentrates on her taking taxpayer money for no service, which is what this is about for most of us. We don't care about her personal beliefs. She is free to have them and resign if she cannot carry out the duties of her office.

As it is, four couples, two gay and two straight, are suing her for interfering with their legal right to marry by refusing to do her job , which includes the issuance of marriage licenses ,as she promised to do in her campaign speeches and swore to do upon taking office. I don't know if any of the couples are Christian but it will be interesting if they are.

2. Her job description did not change. Part of her job is to issue marriage licenses. Period. That's not a difficult concept. The oath was to perform the duties of office and uphold the constitution ...and needs no revising. Again, simple..no change needed.

Obviously you don't really know the story or you would know she is an elected official,not a hired or appointed one... so ,much as I would have loved to see her " given her severance pay and sent on her way", it's more complicated than that in this case. There is no " spineless management" involved here. The disposition of elected officials who refuse to do their sworn duties is a process not handled as it is in a private company, obviously. I personally ,along with many gay people, strongly disagreed with the judges decision to jail her because it turns her into a martyr and this issue into a media circus. Had I been the judge, I would have continued to fine her and exhorted the county to change its rules so that no one person is authorized to sign marriage licenses again and no choke points would occur ( this appears to be what's happening) and explored the dereliction of duty laws regarding elected public officials that applied to this case.

3. So there is a gay pride parade. So what? What does that do to you? You have freedom of religion and speech. Apply for a parade permit like they do and have a Christian one. It's your right. We have churches put floats in the parades around here all the time in the regional cities where there are tons of liberals ....with big crosses and everything...and they get cheered just like everyone else's. Just like the ACLU's is. I've been there. Heck, even Neo-Nazis get police protection here when they want to hold a rally here and spew their hate at everyone. ( You'll be happy to know they don't like gays, either). I've been personally present for that, too. So please don't come at me with how " persecuted" you are in this country just because somebody might have called you a hater, if they did. There are countries where people of many faiths are currently being slaughtered. Is anyone shutting down your place of worship or coming to arrest you or executing you?

4. I choose not to reply to the rest of the bad language and paranoia.

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Hello LeftCoastMom,

 

My church doesn't believe in same sex marriage either and publicly says so, but the government isn't forcing it to ( and shouldn't due to the separation of church and state...which no Christian seems to complain about when it works to their advantage)and no one is being persecuted for that.

 

 

 

True. My church doesn't believe in same sex marriage and says so too. While the pastors at my church refuse to marry same gender couples, they don't try to stop other pastors of other congregations from doing so. There are most definitely pastors who will marry same gender couples, and that's their right, thanks to separation of church and state.

 

 

One of my kids openly wondered if Davis has seriously considered what life would be like in a world run by her strict church.

 

 

Excellent point and I don't think Davis has considered that. Maybe Davis is hopefully learning now the hard lesson that condemning other people for their sins while ignoring one's own sins is not a good idea. If I knew her, I would ask her about when religious leaders brought the woman caught in adultery to Jesus. Jesus taught them that they should concentrate on their own lives instead of condemning the poor woman to death (and where was the man???)

 

(I boldened some and put Jesus' words in red.)

 

 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?” 

 

This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. 

 

But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.- John 8:1-11 (ESV)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208&version=ESV

 

Jesus Christ is so amazing and awesome!!! He could have stoned her, according to the Law of Moses, but he didn't. He didn't let the leaders stone her either. He showed them they were sinners too. He forgave her and commanded her to sin no more. As Christians, we are not to kill sinners; we are sinners too - saved by God's amazing grace through Jesus Christ!!! We can't command people to stop sinning, cause we are not Christ; we just follow Christ.  Rather, we are to obey Jesus Christ's commands to love and with love, tell them what God says. If they reject God's Word, that's their right and between them and God.

 

To Shia members, you have gotten an interesting taste of disagreements concerning what Christians should do about people who are homosexual and a tiny bit about adulterers. There are people who identify as both homosexual and Christian, and there are Christians who commit adultery, though both homosexuality and adultery are condemned by God.  If Shias dominated the world, how would homosexual people and adulterers (both Christian and Non-Christian) be treated? Thanks.

 

Peace and God bless you

Edited by Christianlady
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