Sister Banned From Masjid/accused Of Being Male.

[Night_Inshallah]

She's a white revert sister from Arizona.  My PERSONAL opinion is that they are making this up as an excuse to ban her because she is VERY politically/socially active. By very I'm talking about getting arrested on live TV during a black lives matter protest, lol, in full black abaya & niqab.

 

 

Listen up please everyone. smile emoticon I'm tired and it's late but I'm going to spell this out here (this is the "short" version, the long one will come later insha'Allah in video format most likely).

As of Friday 21 August 2015 I've been banned from the ICC Tempe Masjid because of accusations about my gender.

 

1. Rumors among some women started traveling around during Ramadan (June-July 2015). I'd been going there for over two years with no issue prior. None of these women came to me first which Islamically they should have done. Instead they spread unverified rumors on the basis of assumptions and accusations lacking proof.

 

2. I got called into the office by an official board member who probed me with many questions. He gave me his word that what was discussed in the meeting would be confidential. He was not convinced that I was a woman despite the fact that the office already had on file two official government identification documents (an Arizona State Driver's License and U.S. Passport both of which clearly state Sex: Female). That wasn't good enough for him and he demanded more documentation.

 

3. In this meeting it was revealed that I was discussed a day or two before with the Phoenix Police Department and I specifically remember that day as I was pulled over and detained by ASU police on the way to the masjid and then later in the parking lot I saw a Phoenix PD detective--the same one I had seen at many protests. While I don't know the details of the meeting, it was also revealed that a public records search had been done on me as well as a general search of my internet history including my Facebook page which this board member was never associated with (i.e. never a friend or follower). The information in public records is not always accurate similar to the information in credit reports. When I disputed some of what was told to me that had been seen online and asked for evidence of it, I was not given it. Further, this type of behavior against me amounts to snitching and spying.

 

4. A couple of days later I provided a medical document. In that discussion, this board member gave me my word that the document would not be shown to anyone without first consulting with me. I was further reassured that the contents of the meetings would not leave that room.

 

5. Yesterday at jummah salah, I was called into the office again after a rude woman (whom I had always had positive interaction with previously) told me to get out of the women's section causing an argument after the prayer. That woman told me that there had been a meeting about me the night before. This was a meeting I knew nothing about and was not invited to. The office meeting consisted of a leader I didn't know, a leader I did know, the same board member as before, and the imam. The leader I did know questioned me whether or not "I love Allah (swt)" and whether or not "I love the religion." Naturally I was insulted. At that time only these two leaders were in the room and the imam and the same board member in the other meetings had not arrived yet. The leader I didn't know told me that there was a board meeting about me and that I was not allowed to use the women's areas because "I had male biology." I asked where he got that from and he told me that I was the one who said that at the meeting with the board member previously. I explained that I never said such a thing. He also said I had agreed from the prior meeting to stay out of the women's section which was also untrue.

 

6. When the imam arrived he mentioned the medical document and stated he had read that and that the entire board had read it as well. I explained that nobody had been given permission to read the document. When this board member from the other meetings then arrived, he admitted to sharing the document without my consent and admitted to discussing the contents of the meeting without my consent. He said he had to show and share the information because the "imam needed a fatwa." I was then accused of deliberately deceiving the board with such a document stating that the document did not say what it actually said and that I would need to produce a different medical document. I was accused of making this board member "make a fool out of himself in front of the board" as he put it. He also disputed the type of doctor that issued the document stating that he had also shown the document to other doctors and those doctors did not like how the document was worded.

 

7. They stated I would no longer be allowed to return to the property unless I either provide a document they would accept at which point I would be admitted to the women's areas as before or otherwise I would have to come dressed in men's clothes, pray in the men's area, and use the men's restroom. When I argued over this, this same board member stated he would call the police and have a restraining order placed on me.

 

8. I was also read the ICCs "transgender policy" which basically stated much of what I was being accused of. That policy was posted Monday night on ICC's Facebook page which immediately resulted in arguments. It was pulled early Tuesday morning. That policy also stated that it applied to functions in other venues that held ICC events and not just ICC property.

*****

This behavior towards me is deplorable, un-Islamic, and illegal. Yes, illegal. Violating agreed-upon confidentiality by an official board member of a non-profit organization as well as violating medical privacy by disclosing the contents of a protected medical document without consent are highly illegal. Spreading such rumors about me amounts to sexual harassment and is illegal. Requiring me to use men's restrooms and treating me as a man when I am a woman is illegal. Requiring it in public venues that are subject to the Civil Rights Act on sex discrimination (i.e. the Phoenix Convention Center, hotels, schools, etc.) is also illegal.

Further, most people know there are rare conditions in which some people may not be clearly male or female and sometimes this is manifest at birth and sometimes it manifests at a later time. ICC nor anybody else has a right to dig into someone's real or alleged medical history, real or alleged public records and then try to "expose" them in order to satisfy rumors, assumptions, and accusations that never had evidence behind them in the first place. This behavior is un-Islamic and illegal.

I don't know what to say other than how shocked and appalled I am. I love Islam and it is more dear to me than anything. These people have no right to treat me like this at all especially if they call themselves Muslims and are in leadership positions.

[Ali_Hussain]

How did they know it was her, if she covers her face?

 

What an insult though.

[Night_Inshallah]

www.iccpaz.com

How did they know it was her, if she covers her face?

 

What an insult though.

LOL you can niqabis apart. Besides, no body else in niqab is out fighting the system but her.

[Qa'im]

Do you think it's because she's "fighting the system", or because they have suspicions that she's a transgender person? She doesn't explicitly deny the latter, and a lot of Muslim communities would be hesitant accepting a transgender person into women's washrooms and women's prayers.

[Ruq]

What a dreadful way to treat someone. InshAllah she will find a different masjid where the congregation will show a little more compassion.

[Haji 2003]

a lot of Muslim communities would be hesitant accepting a transgender person into women's washrooms and women's prayers.

 

I think it would depend on whether they were pre or post op.

[torero]

covering face is illegal

[LeftCoastMom]

Might be biologically intersex. Living life as a female. That's the way I read it and it would account for the confusion.

[notme]

If she is medically transgenderd and functionally female, she should use the women's areas and facilities. The criterion Imam Ali (as) used was which part the person urinates with, but nowadays a doctor would be able to make a precise determination. In Iran, psychologically transgendered people are allowed reassignment surgery and then function fully in society under their new physical gender.

But probably the issue was more related to the fact that she is a political "troublemaker" and in the current social climate mosques and Islamic centers need to dissociate from such persons for their own safety.

[Qa'im]

If she is medically transgenderd and functionally female, she should use the women's areas and facilities. The criterion Imam Ali (as) used was which part the person urinates with, but nowadays a doctor would be able to make a precise determination. In Iran, psychologically transgendered people are allowed reassignment surgery and then function fully in society under their new physical gender.

 

This is a Sunni mosque, and they do not recognize sex changes.

 

As for Shii fiqh, many scholars do not allow it either. The urination criteria you mentioned is in relation to determining the gender of hermaphrodites upon birth. To apply that principle to transgender issues is a bit contrived.

 

Frankly I don't know how I would handle the issue if I was the mosque's director.

[Abu Hadi]

So what is the deal, is she transgender or did they make a mistake and she is actually female ? 

 

I think she should find another masjid, because she will probably never be accepted there after this happened.

 

At the same time, she should be honest with the people at the next masjid she goes to and tell the people that she is transgender (if she is) and then see what they say. 

 

She doesn't seem to be openly advocating for the LGBT, supposed, lifestyle, so that is the big difference. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by Abu Hadi

[Bakir]

I personally understood she happened to be hermaphrodite, rather than a transgender woman.

As for this whole issue, I agree that from a religious perspective it is hard to take any stance.

Humanely speaking (and from here I open the doors of subjectivity and personal opinions), nobody changes his or her gender for trolling. What makes a man a man and a woman a woman in our society? I don't know, I find it a very private aspect of her life that would have better been concealed. If a person goes to a mosque to pray and gain closeness to Allah, then so be it. Invading her private past is not right either.

However, if we think in justice, if she happens to be a transsexual female, well... regardless of our personal opinions and emotions, it is wrong. The mosque is not hers. There are rules. You either respect them or face the consequences. Nobody is forxing you to go there if you don't like the rules. Yet again, if she has given her documentation to prove she is a female, that should be the end of the story. The voard members have no right tk invade her privacy either.

As for the political activity, that is a whole issue of another nature which requires more political thinking than ethical one most likely.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Bakir

[Abu Hadi]

I personally understood she happened to be hermaphrodite, rather than a transgender woman.

As for this whole issue, I agree that from a religious perspective it is hard to take any stance.

Humanely speaking (and from here I open the doors of subjectivity and personal opinions), nobody changes his or her gender for trolling. What makes a man a man and a woman a woman in our society? I don't know, I find it a very private aspect of her life that would have better been concealed. If a person goes to a mosque to pray and gain closeness to Allah, then so be it. Invading her private past is not right either.

However, if we think in justice, if she happens to be a transsexual female, well... regardless of our personal opinions and emotions, it is wrong. The mosque is not hers. There are rules. You either respect them or face the consequences. Nobody is forxing you to go there if you don't like the rules. Yet again, if she has given her documentation to prove she is a female, that should be the end of the story. The voard members have no right tk invade her privacy either.

As for the political activity, that is a whole issue of another nature which requires more political thinking than ethical one most like

 

 

 

 

 

Then by that logic, someone who is a hermaphrodite should not go to the masjid  ?

[Bakir]

Sorry I misunderstood you, you mean my prior to last paragraph?

I find it as wrong as banning, don't know, let's say Chinese people to enter the masjid. It is biggotry. But as much as I hate biggotry (and God well knows I hate it), it would be wrong for a Chinese person to go to such a place in the first place. If she is politically active, she should condemn verbally, as she probably is doing now, the mosque administration itself.

As for transsexuality (the non biological one), not all religious groups recognize and accept it. Thus, even if I personally think it is not different from race (as I also consider sexual orientation is no different from race or gender), we have to let religions go at their own pace with such stuff (which is rather a very slow one in my opinion). I'm being lenient with the religious group, not condemning transsexualism. Of course not.

[Night_Inshallah]

I just don't like how they let a pig....I mean officer :)  come into the masjid and cause fitnah!

If my ID and my passport says female that is the end of that! 

For the board/Imam to be passing around her medical records among the masjid MD's is foul!

What's next? Will she have to submit to a GYN exam by one of the masjid doctors to be accepted? 

I would have no part in this community. :(

This is a complete mess. Because now they are OK'ing speculation & rumors.  I know a lot of sisters who don't look all Barbie doll feminine. Some are boney and muscular and flat chested and have strong facial bones. So now any sister who looks a little hard has to submit to an interrogation & sexual exam?  

Edited August 28, 2015 by Night_Inshallah

[LeftCoastMom]

Still think it's about an intersex ( hermaphrodite) individual presenting as female. Don't know what your rules are regarding that, but passing around private medical records is beyond any form of responsibility and decency.

[Bakir]

And there are actually transgender reverts (male to female and female to male, not intersex). Many more than you would expect. They find in Islam in many cases a more accepting community of their new identity (esp in shia communities). Hermaphrodite or not, it is not good etiquette to hold such biggotry. But again, it is about religious beliefs of other communities we are speaking about. It is better to stay far away of them and let them live according to their norms than trying to get involved and end up harrassed.

[LeftCoastMom]

And there are actually transgender reverts (male to female and female to male, not intersex). Many more than you would expect. They find in Islam in many cases a more accepting community of their new identity (esp in shia communities).

*********

Really? That's interesting. Nice because transgenders ,etc. often have such a difficult time.
If anyone treated me like that I know what I would do, but I will show some restraint and not say.
Might get me kicked out of here and I might need the wisdom of the Shia for a while longer....lol!
Like learning while waiting.

I agree with Night_Inshallah...the timing is suspect.

[Chaotic Muslem]

i think the issue is :

a person coming to masjid in full abaya and niqab

enters the female section

females get suspicious about that person due to their physical features that looks like a man wearing abaya and niqab

no woman will approach such a person specially when they are known to be trouble makers or with shady background

the women consults the men

men cannot approach someone wearing abaya and niqab

men consults the administration of masjid

adminstration contacts that person

inquires about a medical record (since the person is wearing niqab, i don't really know how useful is the passport and the ID)

Medical record presented

some discrepancy between what the person claims to be the case and what the administration sees the case as (the records were not shown to public, they were kept in administration and maybe they should have notified her but i guess it is obvious that the imam will not be able to decipher the medical record on his own).

 

I am not going to side with any party but for any person from reverts or an outsider of community which is under threat all time (Muslim communities i guess are more vigilant due to islamophobia and security double checking on them as possible terrorists) last thing they want is a political trouble maker with sexual identity crisis. 

There are females who do not look much feminine but they act like females, soft and considerate.

[Night_Inshallah]

Her youtube response

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAHBK8dMqg

[Ali_Hussain]

Her youtube response

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ptAHBK8dMqg

 

I watched it till around the 50th minute, I do feel sorry for her, but she should have just come out and said what kind of transgender she is, she seemed to be indicating that she was some kind of hermaphrodite (?) either way, you can't watch that video and think that she was born 100% female.

 

She said she was willing to take some kind of legal action if the mosque didn't stop this campaign against her, she I imagine that it will come out in the press eventually.

[truthandjustice]

This is an interesting topic. And look what I found:

 

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/transgender-woman-barred-from-tempe-mosque-unless-she-dresses-as-a-man-or-can-prove-shes-a-woman-7605136

[Qa'im]

Well that ^ article says that she is transgender, as I had originally sensed. So, he should either find a Shia community that accepts transgender operations, or abide by the mosque's rules and use the male restroom.

[Ethics]

Well that ^ article says that she is transgender, as I had originally sensed. So, he should either find a Shia community that accepts transgender operations, or abide by the mosque's rules and use the male restroom.

 

Why a Shia mosque? He isnt a shia.

[Qa'im]

Why a Shia mosque? He isnt a shia.

 

Because no Sunni madhhab accepts transgenders. So the only solution is to find a community that does (i.e. wilayati Shia communities, unless you can point me to a Sunni mosque that does), or abide by the rules of Sunni mosques.

[Night_Inshallah]

Im fixing to ask a Shia Imam/scholar about this.....

[StrugglingForTheLight]

Qa'im are you sure there are no Sunni communities that accept Trasgenders?

[LeftCoastMom]

Ok...so transgender.

I find a couple of things interesting.

The first is that she was around for two years, supposedly known, supposedly using all facilities...and no one objected until now?

Second, if you read the mosque's transgender policy, it seems to imply a recognition of the fact that people go through that process and isn't necessarily rejecting it.

[Ethics]

im sorry but personally I dont want any of my female family near that man. I find it immoral for him to be standing side by side basically touching (usually any congregational prayer at a mosque are bunched together) in prayer for sitting next to. I dont care if he cut his male part off and got a female part now. Initially he was a male, regardless of how he feels towards opposite genders now. I think he should use the male bathroom and go to the male side of the mosque if he decides to go to a mosque. Like is he even islamically required to cover himself? I dont know, I just see transgenders as people dressing up as the opposite sex. You can never change your dna no matter how much you change your hormone levels. Dont get me wrong, give respect and sincerity to ANY human being regardless of who they are or what they became..

Edited August 29, 2015 by Ethics

[LeftCoastMom]

^Being transgender is usually considered psychologically distinct from transvestism , but Qa'im is correct...you can't force a place of worship to accept someone they don't want to and you risk running afoul of them if you decide to go there.

The " Church of the Creator" which had chapters all over wouldn't let someone like me in ( not that I'd set foot in the place) and it was perfectly legal. ( I enjoy knowing I have apparently outlived their " eternal "institution ...although I do miss their rants on how they were going to annihilate me.)

Still, it took an awfully long time for the mosque to get around to this point, though.

I think people should just form their own places of worship if they keep getting rejected. It's a free country. That's what some folks ( gay and straight) did around here after feeling harassed in former churches. Now everyone's happy except the former churches have a bit less $$$$$$$$$.

[Bakir]

It is sad because having an inclusive attitude is great and very welcoming. But I share your point here LCM, if you are getting reject, find people like minded and form your own place of worship as a community.

[ShiaOfMahdi]

What kind of prejudice is this?

[Bakir]

Usually it's called transphobia, though Qaim gave a respectable point and what he describes is not a reaction out of prejudices but religious beliefs. The line separating both may not be clear for all though.

[tendersoul]

Salam,

~Whatever disturbs the peace of your heart give it up~ The Prophet ( pbuh )

~ The best place for a woman to pray , is a lonely corner of her room~ The Prophet ( PBUH ) ( similar to Virgin Mary )

Actually in Islam it is recommended more to pray on her own in her own house then praying in a mosque ,unlike men.

[notme]

In my opinion, a person who is physically and psychologically female has a right to use the women's rooms. Transsexualism is not the same as transvestitism.

However, this mosque belongs to a group who do not recognize this condition. She isn't welcome there, and I don't understand why she wants to go where she isn't wanted.

I think it's a publicity stunt. She just wants her 15 minutes of fame because somehow fame has become a goal in itself in our twisted and sad world.