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Abul_Hassan01

12Ers Believe Majority Ahle Bayt Were Misguided?

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Does it make any logical sense to say Zayd was not from ahle bayt but his brother was?

 

 

 

According to sunnis and shias, Imam Hasan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) are the Prophet's household/family  members/ahlul bayt, but his own son Ibrahim is not. 

 

Read more into sunni hadiths as to why that is and you can probably answer both questions. Also, look at certain verses of the Qur'an like the ones I've provided below:

 

When Prophet Noah's (pbuh) son was about to drown:

 

“O my Lord!  Verily my son is of my family!  And certainly your promise is true and you are the Most Just of the judges.” (Quran 11:45) Note how Prophet Noah (pbuh) is saying his son is of his ahl الأَهْل) (family).

 

What does Allah swt. say?

 

“He said: ‘Oh Noah!  Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge!  I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants.’” (Quran 11:46)

 

What we can deduce is, someone is not from your ahl until he is obedient to Allah swt. 

 

 

He seems to be referring to you in the bold part. So should I take him seriously or you? Some shia on here clearly seem to think you don't know what you are talking about either (see the likes he got on his post)

 

 
 
Please don't put words in my mouth. I was speaking on a general basis and was not referring to any individual.
 

 

It is very clear that most people here do believe that other than the 14, the rest who form the MAJORITY of the lineage of the Holy Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) were misguided.

 

 

 
I feel like sufficient answers have been given to you in this thread albeit a major mistake which pretty much nullified your entire question. 
 
In reality, after understanding that the Prophet's household is not equivalent to his lineage, there really is no further discussion to be had here. 
 
Since you've decided to change your argument from household/ahlulbayt to majority of prophet's (pbuhahf) lineage were misguided:
 
I would strongly urge you to read the Qur'an and your own hadiths. Being a prophet's son, or from his lineage does not automatically make you guided. What about Prophet Adam's (pbuhahf) lineage? Allah swt. says most will be in hell. What about Prophet Moses' (pbuh) lineage? Honestly, lineage is something that's far off, why not look at households?
 
How about Prophet Noah (pbuh), were his son and wife not misguided? How about Prophet Lut (pbuhahf), was his wife not misguided? Much like the offspring of Prophets, some offspring of the 12 shia imams (pbuh) were misguided and would try to take Imamat away from those Allah swt. had appointed it for.
 
To answer your new statement, whether the information you've brought forth is authentic or not, shias have no issue in believing a majority or minority of any lineage were misguided. It makes no difference to us given the examples set in the Qur'an. 

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

 

The Ahl al-Bayt Khass are 14 عليهم أفضل الصلاة والسلام and we believe they were the epitome of guidance, thus the guides. If you mean by "Ahl al-Bayt" people related the Prophet [sawa] via blood, then why would that bother us? Islam is not tribalism and blood relations save no one. We hold that the majority of the Companions and the Umma at large deviated and are deviated. We believe Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام's own son al-Aftah is an impostor and deserving of Hellfire. Why would it bother us to say most of Bani Hashim deviated?

 

"Surely, the religion of Allah is not known (or judged) by the people, it is recognized by the sign of Truth. Know the Truth, and you shall know its people."

 

في أمان الله

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In the Holy Quran even some  Prophets own family members were misguided, and non believers. So whats the big deal..... 

 

 

Ah another one who admits that the majority of ahle bayt were misguided.

 

 

That's what I was thinking. The wife and son of Nuh a.s., the wife of Lut a.s., Abu Lahab the uncle of Rasulullah s.a.w. and more examples.

 

Another one confirming this...

 

 

 

 

According to sunnis and shias, Imam Hasan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) are the Prophet's household/family  members/ahlul bayt, but his own son Ibrahim is not. 

 

Read more into sunni hadiths as to why that is and you can probably answer both questions. Also, look at certain verses of the Qur'an like the ones I've provided below:

 

When Prophet Noah's (pbuh) son was about to drown:

 

“O my Lord!  Verily my son is of my family!  And certainly your promise is true and you are the Most Just of the judges.” (Quran 11:45) Note how Prophet Noah (pbuh) is saying his son is of his ahl الأَهْل) (family).

 

What does Allah swt. say?

 

“He said: ‘Oh Noah!  Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge!  I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants.’” (Quran 11:46)

 

What we can deduce is, someone is not from your ahl until he is obedient to Allah swt. 

 

 

 

He seems to be referring to you in the bold part. So should I take him seriously or you? Some shia on here clearly seem to think you don't know what you are talking about either (see the likes he got on his post)

 

 
 
Please don't put words in my mouth. I was speaking on a general basis and was not referring to any individual.
 
 

 

 
I feel like sufficient answers have been given to you in this thread albeit a major mistake which pretty much nullified your entire question. 
 
In reality, after understanding that the Prophet's household is not equivalent to his lineage, there really is no further discussion to be had here. 
 
Since you've decided to change your argument from household/ahlulbayt to majority of prophet's (pbuhahf) lineage were misguided:
 
I would strongly urge you to read the Qur'an and your own hadiths. Being a prophet's son, or from his lineage does not automatically make you guided. What about Prophet Adam's (pbuhahf) lineage? Allah swt. says most will be in hell. What about Prophet Moses' (pbuh) lineage? Honestly, lineage is something that's far off, why not look at households?
 
How about Prophet Noah (pbuh), were his son and wife not misguided? How about Prophet Lut (pbuhahf), was his wife not misguided? Much like the offspring of Prophets, some offspring of the 12 shia imams (pbuh) were misguided and would try to take Imamat away from those Allah swt. had appointed it for.
 
To answer your new statement, whether the information you've brought forth is authentic or not, shias have no issue in believing a majority or minority of any lineage were misguided. It makes no difference to us given the examples set in the Qur'an. 

 

 

 

Another one...there seems to be a 100% consensus now. Not one 12er who believes the majority of ahle bayt weren't misguided.

 

 

Btw I used the term lineage beause you folks can't decide what is ahle bayt. That was for your own benefit.

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

 

The Ahl al-Bayt Khass are 14 عليهم أفضل الصلاة والسلام and we believe they were the epitome of guidance, thus the guides. If you mean by "Ahl al-Bayt" people related the Prophet [sawa] via blood, then why would that bother us? Islam is not tribalism and blood relations save no one. We hold that the majority of the Companions and the Umma at large deviated and are deviated. We believe Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام's own son al-Aftah is an impostor and deserving of Hellfire. Why would it bother us to say most of Bani Hashim deviated?

 

"Surely, the religion of Allah is not known (or judged) by the people, it is recognized by the sign of Truth. Know the Truth, and you shall know its people."

 

في أمان الله

 

Oh so it's ahl al-bayt Khass are the guided & guiders whereas as the ahl al-bayt (non-khass) aren't.

 

Sorry I can't see the word khass anywhere in the hadiths of thaqalayn etc.

 

See how you change it to bani hashim when we are talking only about the direct offspring of the holy Prophet (peace & blesings be upon him). You're too scared to say it doesn't bother you to say most of the offspring of the Holy Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) deviated. That's what you believe so why don't you say it directly instead of sneakily using the term of banu hashim.

 

Banu Hashim is one of the clans of the Quraysh tribe, it derives its name from Hashim ibn Abd Manaf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is this taqiyya from you? You believe the majority of the holy prophet's (peace & blessings be upon him) offspring deviated (just like the rest of the posters on here) yet you hide this belief by deliberately using the words banu hashim so as to not expose yourself!!!

 

The irony that you say Islam is not tribalism & blood relations saves no one, this coming from a member of a sect whose foundations are that the blood relatives are the sources of deen & no one else!!!!

Edited by Abul_Hassan01

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Ah another one who admits that the majority of ahle bayt were misguided.

 

 

 

 

 

Brother, it s clearly evident that you are  having problems making the "DISTINCTION" As to who were the Ahlul bayt (as) Therefore it is pertinent that to narrow your argument, you need to give source of reference according your school of thought, As to who are  Ahlul bayt? 

 

​Moreover, it is essential that you list "ONLY" 12vers who rejected  the Imams of Ahlul bayt, because  you asserting that Zaydis Ismailis are also part of 12vers. 

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Brother, it s clearly evident that you are  having problems making the "DISTINCTION" As to who were the Ahlul bayt (as) Therefore it is pertinent that to narrow your argument, you need to give source of reference according your school of thought, As to who are  Ahlul bayt? 

 

​Moreover, it is essential that you list "ONLY" 12vers who rejected  the Imams of Ahlul bayt, because  you asserting that Zaydis Ismailis are also part of 12vers. 

 

 

Since you all can't agree on who is or isn't ahle bayt how about we refer to the term i'm using as the direct offspring of Ali.

 

Now no one can argue that the list of figures mentioned in the title post were the direct offspring of Ali. I am only using this terminology because no one has come to an agreement on the term ahle bayt.

 

The point is every 12er on here so far believes that the majority of the son's & daughters of Ali & Fatima were misguided & went astray.

 

Along with the list of over 50 members of Ali's offspring there are other notable members to be mentioned.

 

Who was one of the most famous women from the offspring of Ali? Sayeda Nafisa. Here's some info about her:

 

Sayyida Nafīsa (سيدة نفيسة) was the daughter of al-Hasan al-Anwar, the son of Zayd, son of Imam al-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. She was buried in Cairo, Egypt. In historical books,she is well-known for her worship, asceticism, narrating hadith, generosity and memorizing Qur'an. She was married to Ishaq al-Mu'tamin, the son of Imam al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

Ishaq al-Mu'tamin was famous for being pious, knowledgeable and reliable in narrating hadith. He witnessed Imam al-Kazim's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã last will to his son, Imam al-Rida Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Abu Muhammad was the kunya (Arabic teknonym) of Ishaq; because he was well-known for being trustworthy, he was called al-Mu'tamin. Ishaq was born and raised in Urayd(an area in Medina).

 

Now here's the interesting part:

 

Her students travelled from faraway places and among them was Imam Idris al-Shafi’i,the man behind the Shafi’i school of fiqh. She financially sponsored his education for him.

 

It is well known that Imam Shafi & Sayida Nafisa had a close religious connection. It is said that she even lead his funeral prayer amongst the ladies.

 

Now it is totally inconceivable that she would have held the beliefs of the 12ers with her having such a close connection to Al Shafi.

 

So another famous figure of ahle bayt, oops I mean offspring of Ali, that was misguided?

Edited by Abul_Hassan01

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Since you all can't agree on who is or isn't ahle bayt how about we refer to the term i'm using as the direct offspring of Ali.

 

Now no one can argue that the list of figures mentioned in the title post were the direct offspring of Ali. I am only using this terminology because no one has come to an agreement on the term ahle bayt.

 

The point is every 12er on here so far believes that the majority of the son's & daughters of Ali & Fatima were misguided & went astray.

 

Along with the list of over 50 members of Ali's offspring there are other notable members to be mentioned.

 

Who was one of the most famous women from the offspring of Ali? Sayeda Nafisa. Here's some info about her:

 

Sayyida Nafīsa (سيدة نفيسة) was the daughter of al-Hasan al-Anwar, the son of Zayd, son of Imam al-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. She was buried in Cairo, Egypt. In historical books,she is well-known for her worship, asceticism, narrating hadith, generosity and memorizing Qur'an. She was married to Ishaq al-Mu'tamin, the son of Imam al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

Ishaq al-Mu'tamin was famous for being pious, knowledgeable and reliable in narrating hadith. He witnessed Imam al-Kazim's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã last will to his son, Imam al-Rida Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Abu Muhammad was the kunya (Arabic teknonym) of Ishaq; because he was well-known for being trustworthy, he was called al-Mu'tamin. Ishaq was born and raised in Urayd(an area in Medina).

 

Now here's the interesting part:

 

Her students travelled from faraway places and among them was Imam Idris al-Shafi’i,the man behind the Shafi’i school of fiqh. She financially sponsored his education for him.

 

It is well known that Imam Shafi & Sayida Nafisa had a close religious connection. It is said that she even lead his funeral prayer amongst the ladies.

 

Now it is totally inconceivable that she would have held the beliefs of the 12ers with her having such a close connection to Al Shafi.

 

So another famous figure of ahle bayt, oops I mean offspring of Ali, that was misguided?

Well done brother. They didn't hold the belief in 12 Imams because such belief did not even exist at the time. Hence, that's why you see many of the other Imams from the Ahl al-Bayt (as) claiming Imamate.

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Ahl albaayt , Shia view:

 

To the Shi’a, the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (S) consist of the following individuals:

 

Prophet Muhammad
Lady Fatima tuz Zahra
Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Imam Hassan
Imam Hussain
Imam Ali Zainul Aabideen
Imam Muhammad Ibn Ali
Imam Jafaar Ibn Muhammad
Imam Musa Ibn Jafaar
Imam Ali Ibn Musa
Imam Muhammad Ibn Ali
Imam Ali Ibn Muhammad
Imam Hassan Ibn Ali
Imam Hujjat Ibn Hassan

 

They are covered under the verse of purification. Last part of verse 33:33.

 

Ahl albayat: , Sunni view

 

1. The Prophet’s wives
2. The Prophet’s children
3. The Prophet’s freed slaves
4. Ahlel Kisa (People of the Cloak, i.e. Ali ibn Abi Talib’s family)
5. The family of Aqil
6. The offspring of Jafar
7. The offspring of Abbas
8. Salman al-Farsi
And perhaps some others we may have missed…

 

Post no. 3 link given below:

 

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?66464-Who-are-Ahl-e-Bayt&p=552657&viewfull=1#post552657

 

The  basic definition of Ahl albayat  from Shia consist of only 14 individuals.

 

The definition of Ahl albayat from Sunnis has unlimited members included in Ahl albayat,. The  whole  ummah (including all the companions and muslims) can be considered Ahl albayt of the prophet.

 

The majority is condemned by the Quran and believers are always  small in numbers.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Since you all can't agree on who is or isn't ahle bayt how about we refer to the term i'm using as the direct offspring of Ali.

 

Now no one can argue that the list of figures mentioned in the title post were the direct offspring of Ali. I am only using this terminology because no one has come to an agreement on the term ahle bayt.

 

The point is every 12er on here so far believes that the majority of the son's & daughters of Ali & Fatima were misguided & went astray.

 

Along with the list of over 50 members of Ali's offspring there are other notable members to be mentioned.

 

 

This is  a monumental LIE!  members have giving you, the account as to who  are the Ahlul bayt (as)  according to tradition narrated by Rasulillah (pbuh&hf) 

 

Furthermore, their isn't a  tradition from Rasulallah that: It was compulsory to follow the descendants of the Imam (as) who were not ordained by the  almighty ? Unless you can prove otherwise from Shia source?

Edited by power

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Ahlul Bayt [ra] with uppercase "A" and the general with lowercase "a".  Brilliant!  I have never laughed this hard when it comes to religious blunders.

 

Brother Abul_Hassan01, this is remarkable work. 

 

Your obviously a fool then. If I was to ask what Imam you follow and you said Imam Abu Hanifa and I said dumbo i meant who do you pray behind.

 

Therefore when writing its important to look at context, belief of the person speaking, and common every day usage.

 

Your despearte attempts make you look like a fool 

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(bismillah)

 

Lol, go read a few books instead of internet posts. You seem to gain nothing here nor does anyone gain anything from you except for a few laughs.

 

في امان الله

 

As a mod you must be a senior member of this forum. The above was your reply to the post where your deception was exposed?

The biggest laugh was when you tried to deceive the people by switching to the term Banu Hashim & saying yes there is nothing wrong with saying the majority of them went astray.

 

It is obvious you & every other 12er on here believes the majority of the offspring of Ali went astray, yet you are too deceitful to admit it verbatim & try to hide your twisted belief via switching the term to banu hashim.

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As a mod you must be a senior member of this forum. The above was your reply to the post where your deception was exposed?

The biggest laugh was when you tried to deceive the people by switching to the term Banu Hashim & saying yes there is nothing wrong with saying the majority of them went astray.

 

It is obvious you & every other 12er on here believes the majority of the offspring of Ali went astray, yet you are too deceitful to admit it verbatim & try to hide your twisted belief via switching the term to banu hashim.

lol.

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