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Abul_Hassan01

12Ers Believe Majority Ahle Bayt Were Misguided?

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If really do not understand where your obsessions with numbers, majority, minority comes from. You better go and read Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet once came out to us and said, "Some nations were displayed before me. A prophet would pass in front of me with one man, and another with two men, and another with a group of people. and another with nobody with him

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Agains its 12ers vs 12ers here. One person says ahle bayt is 14 only, other say the rest are ahle bayt too. You all seem very confused.

Thank you for proving that you read on a grade 1 level. Goodness may Allah provide me with patience.

 

Firstly, I said the same thing he said in the 2nd reply of this thread.

 

Secondly, we all do agree who Ahlulbayt(as) are, however a couple of our brothers were clearly trying to be understanding of you and patient with you so they went along with it as in it means "companions/sayyids" of the Imams for your sake.

 

Thirdly, your definition of Ahlulbayt (as) is not even in line with mainstream Sunnism. So how about you stop snaking your way about the thread, and clearly declare who are ahlulbayt to you, with proof.

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Hello! Did you have coffee yet?

The entire Ahl-al-Bayt a.s. at that time consisted of four people, Lady Fatima a.s., Imam Ali a.s., Imam Hassan a.s. and Imam Hussayn a.s.

 

Earlier you wrote:

 

I don't know what the total number of the Ahl al-Bayt was at that time

 

Now according to some of the other posters it is known that the ahle bayt were only the 14. So which one is it? They were known as 14 or they weren't? Make your minds up.

 

One poster (hashding doz) even said:

 

If you guys don't know what you're talking about, please refrain from posting because you only misrepresent your own religion. When I say this I speak for sunnis, and ESPECIALLY the shias.

 

 

 

He seems to be referring to you in the bold part. So should I take him seriously or you? Some shia on here clearly seem to think you don't know what you are talking about either (see the likes he got on his post)

 

 

If really do not understand where your obsessions with numbers, majority, minority comes from. You better go and read Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet once came out to us and said, "Some nations were displayed before me. A prophet would pass in front of me with one man, and another with two men, and another with a group of people. and another with nobody with him

 

Numbers or not, its obvious what your take is on the matter.

 

Thank you for proving that you read on a grade 1 level. Goodness may Allah provide me with patience.

 

Firstly, I said the same thing he said in the 2nd reply of this thread.

 

Secondly, we all do agree who Ahlulbayt(as) are, however a couple of our brothers were clearly trying to be understanding of you and patient with you so they went along with it as in it means "companions/sayyids" of the Imams for your sake.

 

Thirdly, your definition of Ahlulbayt (as) is not even in line with mainstream Sunnism. So how about you stop snaking your way about the thread, and clearly declare who are ahlulbayt to you, with proof.

 

You weren't the only person I was referring to, clearly not all of you agree on the matter. I have said it before & will say it again, between you all, you need to make your minds up.

 

It is very clear that most people here do believe that other than the 14, the rest who form the MAJORITY of the lineage of the Holy Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) were misguided.

 

I'm not talking sayyids of today, i'm talking the majority of them who lived during the time of the 12 Imams.

 

As far as i'm concerned, unless anyone can share with us otherwise, the answer is clear, so case closed for me.

 

Thanks for the replies.

Edited by Abul_Hassan01

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Numbers or not, its obvious what your take is on the matter.

 

 

I can say the same to you as well you but what is finally your point in this (discussion).?

The majority of the Sahaba didn't follow the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. and the majority of the progeny of Muhammad s.a.w. (if true) didn't follow the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. as well so Shia Islam isn't on the truth?

It says all but in the same time nothing at all. This is your opinion but not something to use as a judicial argument as the truth is not about numbers. 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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So from the logic of most of all you folks:

 

Both Al-Baqir & Zayd were son's of Ali Zayn Al Abideen & thus grandsons of Hussain.  Yet one (Al Baqir) is considered belonging to ahle bayt, the other (Zayd) is not.

 

See: http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00420.html

 

Among the children of Imam 'Ali Zaynul 'Abidin (a.s.), after Muhammad al-Baqir,
Zayd was the most outstanding and the most learned. Shaykh Mufid describes
him as "a devout worshipper, pious, a jurist, God-fearing and brave."
(al-Irshad, p. 403)
It is worth mentioning that he is also the first narrator of the famous
as-Sahifah as-Sajj�diyya of Imam Zaynul 'Abidin (a.s.).

 

Does it make any logical sense to say Zayd was not from ahle bayt but his brother was?

 

Intriguingly the same website all has this:

 

This leaves us with no choice but to reject the statement made by the
late 'Allamah Tab�tab�'i that Zayd himself "considered the first two caliphs,
Abu Bakr and Umar, as their Imams." (Shi'a Islam, p. 77)

 

So Al Tabatabai, am outstanding scholar of 12ers admits that Zayd considered Abu Bakr & Umar as Imams.

 

I wonder which shia on here would dare say to Zayd Ibn Ali to his face (if he were stood infront of them) that he was not ahle bayt.

 

I can see the looks on the faces of the Zaydi's now!
 

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So from the logic of most of all you folks:

 

Both Al-Baqir & Zayd were son's of Ali Zayn Al Abideen & thus grandsons of Hussain.  Yet one (Al Baqir) is considered belonging to ahle bayt, the other (Zayd) is not.

 

See: http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00420.html

 

Among the children of Imam 'Ali Zaynul 'Abidin (a.s.), after Muhammad al-Baqir,

Zayd was the most outstanding and the most learned. Shaykh Mufid describes

him as "a devout worshipper, pious, a jurist, God-fearing and brave."

(al-Irshad, p. 403)

It is worth mentioning that he is also the first narrator of the famous

as-Sahifah as-Sajj�diyya of Imam Zaynul 'Abidin (a.s.).

 

Does it make any logical sense to say Zayd was not from ahle bayt but his brother was?

 

Intriguingly the same website all has this:

 

This leaves us with no choice but to reject the statement made by the

late 'Allamah Tab�tab�'i that Zayd himself "considered the first two caliphs,

Abu Bakr and Umar, as their Imams." (Shi'a Islam, p. 77)

 

So Al Tabatabai, am outstanding scholar of 12ers admits that Zayd considered Abu Bakr & Umar as Imams.

 

I wonder which shia on here would dare say to Zayd Ibn Ali to his face (if he were stood infront of them) that he was not ahle bayt.

 

I can see the looks on the faces of the Zaydi's now!

 

 

 

I see where your problem is. Firstly you are debating 12er Shias but trying to impose a Sunni view point.

 

To put it in general terms so you can understand.

 

There is Thee Ahlul Bait notice the capital letters and my attempt to write what i am saying. These are very specific individuals with religious significance.

 

Then there is the ahlul bait which is a general term and has less religious significance.

 

As you might have the Imam of a mosque or leading prayers but shouldnt be confused with the 4 Imams f the Sunni faith. i think you are creating issues where there are none

Edited by A true Sunni

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So from the logic of most of all you folks:

 

Both Al-Baqir & Zayd were son's of Ali Zayn Al Abideen & thus grandsons of Hussain.  Yet one (Al Baqir) is considered belonging to ahle bayt, the other (Zayd) is not.

 

See: http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/AalimNetwork/msg00420.html

 

Among the children of Imam 'Ali Zaynul 'Abidin (a.s.), after Muhammad al-Baqir,

Zayd was the most outstanding and the most learned. Shaykh Mufid describes

him as "a devout worshipper, pious, a jurist, God-fearing and brave."

(al-Irshad, p. 403)

It is worth mentioning that he is also the first narrator of the famous

as-Sahifah as-Sajj�diyya of Imam Zaynul 'Abidin (a.s.).

 

Does it make any logical sense to say Zayd was not from ahle bayt but his brother was?

 

Intriguingly the same website all has this:

 

This leaves us with no choice but to reject the statement made by the

late 'Allamah Tab�tab�'i that Zayd himself "considered the first two caliphs,

Abu Bakr and Umar, as their Imams." (Shi'a Islam, p. 77)

 

So Al Tabatabai, am outstanding scholar of 12ers admits that Zayd considered Abu Bakr & Umar as Imams.

 

I wonder which shia on here would dare say to Zayd Ibn Ali to his face (if he were stood infront of them) that he was not ahle bayt.

 

I can see the looks on the faces of the Zaydi's now!

 

 

Yeah, no problem, i would stand up and say to: Zayd that you are not part of of Ahlul bayt that has been ordained by Allah swt for Imamate! What s the big deal here? Zayd new that his brother was  ordained Imamate.

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I see where your problem is. Firstly you are debating 12er Shias but trying to impose a Sunni view point.

 

To put it in general terms so you can understand.

 

There is Thee Ahlul Bait notice the capital letters and my attempt to write what i am saying. These are very specific individuals with religious significance.

 

Then there is the ahlul bait which is a general term and has less religious significance.

 

As you might have the Imam of a mosque or leading prayers but shouldnt be confused with the 4 Imams f the Sunni faith. i think you are creating issues where there are none

 

Wait...Is everyone ready for the scholarly analysis of the year, that is:

 

There is now Ahlul Bait with capital & ahlul bait without...

 

Wow...You should be nominated as the shia mujadid of this century with this breakthrough!!!

 

 

Yeah, no problem, i would stand up and say to: Zayd that you are not part of of Ahlul bayt that has been ordained by Allah swt for Imamate! What s the big deal here? Zayd new that his brother was  ordained Imamate.

 

 

Bravo!!!!

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Yeah, no problem, i would stand up and say to: Zayd that you are not part of of Ahlul bayt that has been ordained by Allah swt for Imamate! What s the big deal here? Zayd new that his brother was  ordained Imamate.

I think that brother Abu al-Hassan thinks that as Sunni muslims believe all Sahaba were good even when they wished eachother Eternal Fire or when one raped the wive of the other, he thinks that Shia muslims also believe that all members and offspring of the Ahl al-Bayt are guided as well. 

That is because of the Sunni spectacles he views the surrounding world through.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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I think that brother Abu al-Hassan thinks that as Sunni muslims believe all Sahaba were good even when they wished eachother Eternal Fire or raped their wives, he thinks that Shia muslims also believe that all members and offspring of the Ahl al-Bayt are guided as well. 

That is because of the Sunni spectacles he views the surrounding world through.

 

In the Holy Quran even some  Prophets own family members were misguided, and non believers. So whats the big deal..... 

Edited by power

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Does it make any logical sense to say Zayd was not from ahle bayt but his brother was?

 

 

 

According to sunnis and shias, Imam Hasan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) are the Prophet's household/family  members/ahlul bayt, but his own son Ibrahim is not. 

 

Read more into sunni hadiths as to why that is and you can probably answer both questions. Also, look at certain verses of the Qur'an like the ones I've provided below:

 

When Prophet Noah's (pbuh) son was about to drown:

 

“O my Lord!  Verily my son is of my family!  And certainly your promise is true and you are the Most Just of the judges.” (Quran 11:45) Note how Prophet Noah (pbuh) is saying his son is of his ahl الأَهْل) (family).

 

What does Allah swt. say?

 

“He said: ‘Oh Noah!  Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge!  I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants.’” (Quran 11:46)

 

What we can deduce is, someone is not from your ahl until he is obedient to Allah swt. 

 

 

He seems to be referring to you in the bold part. So should I take him seriously or you? Some shia on here clearly seem to think you don't know what you are talking about either (see the likes he got on his post)

 

 
 
Please don't put words in my mouth. I was speaking on a general basis and was not referring to any individual.
 

 

It is very clear that most people here do believe that other than the 14, the rest who form the MAJORITY of the lineage of the Holy Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) were misguided.

 

 

 
I feel like sufficient answers have been given to you in this thread albeit a major mistake which pretty much nullified your entire question. 
 
In reality, after understanding that the Prophet's household is not equivalent to his lineage, there really is no further discussion to be had here. 
 
Since you've decided to change your argument from household/ahlulbayt to majority of prophet's (pbuhahf) lineage were misguided:
 
I would strongly urge you to read the Qur'an and your own hadiths. Being a prophet's son, or from his lineage does not automatically make you guided. What about Prophet Adam's (pbuhahf) lineage? Allah swt. says most will be in hell. What about Prophet Moses' (pbuh) lineage? Honestly, lineage is something that's far off, why not look at households?
 
How about Prophet Noah (pbuh), were his son and wife not misguided? How about Prophet Lut (pbuhahf), was his wife not misguided? Much like the offspring of Prophets, some offspring of the 12 shia imams (pbuh) were misguided and would try to take Imamat away from those Allah swt. had appointed it for.
 
To answer your new statement, whether the information you've brought forth is authentic or not, shias have no issue in believing a majority or minority of any lineage were misguided. It makes no difference to us given the examples set in the Qur'an. 

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In the Holy Quran even some  Prophets own family members were misguided, and non believers. So whats the big deal..... 

 

 

Ah another one who admits that the majority of ahle bayt were misguided.

 

 

That's what I was thinking. The wife and son of Nuh a.s., the wife of Lut a.s., Abu Lahab the uncle of Rasulullah s.a.w. and more examples.

 

Another one confirming this...

 

 

 

 

According to sunnis and shias, Imam Hasan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) are the Prophet's household/family  members/ahlul bayt, but his own son Ibrahim is not. 

 

Read more into sunni hadiths as to why that is and you can probably answer both questions. Also, look at certain verses of the Qur'an like the ones I've provided below:

 

When Prophet Noah's (pbuh) son was about to drown:

 

“O my Lord!  Verily my son is of my family!  And certainly your promise is true and you are the Most Just of the judges.” (Quran 11:45) Note how Prophet Noah (pbuh) is saying his son is of his ahl الأَهْل) (family).

 

What does Allah swt. say?

 

“He said: ‘Oh Noah!  Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge!  I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants.’” (Quran 11:46)

 

What we can deduce is, someone is not from your ahl until he is obedient to Allah swt. 

 

 

 

He seems to be referring to you in the bold part. So should I take him seriously or you? Some shia on here clearly seem to think you don't know what you are talking about either (see the likes he got on his post)

 

 
 
Please don't put words in my mouth. I was speaking on a general basis and was not referring to any individual.
 
 

 

 
I feel like sufficient answers have been given to you in this thread albeit a major mistake which pretty much nullified your entire question. 
 
In reality, after understanding that the Prophet's household is not equivalent to his lineage, there really is no further discussion to be had here. 
 
Since you've decided to change your argument from household/ahlulbayt to majority of prophet's (pbuhahf) lineage were misguided:
 
I would strongly urge you to read the Qur'an and your own hadiths. Being a prophet's son, or from his lineage does not automatically make you guided. What about Prophet Adam's (pbuhahf) lineage? Allah swt. says most will be in hell. What about Prophet Moses' (pbuh) lineage? Honestly, lineage is something that's far off, why not look at households?
 
How about Prophet Noah (pbuh), were his son and wife not misguided? How about Prophet Lut (pbuhahf), was his wife not misguided? Much like the offspring of Prophets, some offspring of the 12 shia imams (pbuh) were misguided and would try to take Imamat away from those Allah swt. had appointed it for.
 
To answer your new statement, whether the information you've brought forth is authentic or not, shias have no issue in believing a majority or minority of any lineage were misguided. It makes no difference to us given the examples set in the Qur'an. 

 

 

 

Another one...there seems to be a 100% consensus now. Not one 12er who believes the majority of ahle bayt weren't misguided.

 

 

Btw I used the term lineage beause you folks can't decide what is ahle bayt. That was for your own benefit.

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

 

The Ahl al-Bayt Khass are 14 عليهم أفضل الصلاة والسلام and we believe they were the epitome of guidance, thus the guides. If you mean by "Ahl al-Bayt" people related the Prophet [sawa] via blood, then why would that bother us? Islam is not tribalism and blood relations save no one. We hold that the majority of the Companions and the Umma at large deviated and are deviated. We believe Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام's own son al-Aftah is an impostor and deserving of Hellfire. Why would it bother us to say most of Bani Hashim deviated?

 

"Surely, the religion of Allah is not known (or judged) by the people, it is recognized by the sign of Truth. Know the Truth, and you shall know its people."

 

في أمان الله

 

Oh so it's ahl al-bayt Khass are the guided & guiders whereas as the ahl al-bayt (non-khass) aren't.

 

Sorry I can't see the word khass anywhere in the hadiths of thaqalayn etc.

 

See how you change it to bani hashim when we are talking only about the direct offspring of the holy Prophet (peace & blesings be upon him). You're too scared to say it doesn't bother you to say most of the offspring of the Holy Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) deviated. That's what you believe so why don't you say it directly instead of sneakily using the term of banu hashim.

 

Banu Hashim is one of the clans of the Quraysh tribe, it derives its name from Hashim ibn Abd Manaf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is this taqiyya from you? You believe the majority of the holy prophet's (peace & blessings be upon him) offspring deviated (just like the rest of the posters on here) yet you hide this belief by deliberately using the words banu hashim so as to not expose yourself!!!

 

The irony that you say Islam is not tribalism & blood relations saves no one, this coming from a member of a sect whose foundations are that the blood relatives are the sources of deen & no one else!!!!

Edited by Abul_Hassan01

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Ah another one who admits that the majority of ahle bayt were misguided.

 

 

 

 

 

Brother, it s clearly evident that you are  having problems making the "DISTINCTION" As to who were the Ahlul bayt (as) Therefore it is pertinent that to narrow your argument, you need to give source of reference according your school of thought, As to who are  Ahlul bayt? 

 

​Moreover, it is essential that you list "ONLY" 12vers who rejected  the Imams of Ahlul bayt, because  you asserting that Zaydis Ismailis are also part of 12vers. 

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Brother, it s clearly evident that you are  having problems making the "DISTINCTION" As to who were the Ahlul bayt (as) Therefore it is pertinent that to narrow your argument, you need to give source of reference according your school of thought, As to who are  Ahlul bayt? 

 

​Moreover, it is essential that you list "ONLY" 12vers who rejected  the Imams of Ahlul bayt, because  you asserting that Zaydis Ismailis are also part of 12vers. 

 

 

Since you all can't agree on who is or isn't ahle bayt how about we refer to the term i'm using as the direct offspring of Ali.

 

Now no one can argue that the list of figures mentioned in the title post were the direct offspring of Ali. I am only using this terminology because no one has come to an agreement on the term ahle bayt.

 

The point is every 12er on here so far believes that the majority of the son's & daughters of Ali & Fatima were misguided & went astray.

 

Along with the list of over 50 members of Ali's offspring there are other notable members to be mentioned.

 

Who was one of the most famous women from the offspring of Ali? Sayeda Nafisa. Here's some info about her:

 

Sayyida Nafīsa (سيدة نفيسة) was the daughter of al-Hasan al-Anwar, the son of Zayd, son of Imam al-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. She was buried in Cairo, Egypt. In historical books,she is well-known for her worship, asceticism, narrating hadith, generosity and memorizing Qur'an. She was married to Ishaq al-Mu'tamin, the son of Imam al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

Ishaq al-Mu'tamin was famous for being pious, knowledgeable and reliable in narrating hadith. He witnessed Imam al-Kazim's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã last will to his son, Imam al-Rida Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Abu Muhammad was the kunya (Arabic teknonym) of Ishaq; because he was well-known for being trustworthy, he was called al-Mu'tamin. Ishaq was born and raised in Urayd(an area in Medina).

 

Now here's the interesting part:

 

Her students travelled from faraway places and among them was Imam Idris al-Shafi’i,the man behind the Shafi’i school of fiqh. She financially sponsored his education for him.

 

It is well known that Imam Shafi & Sayida Nafisa had a close religious connection. It is said that she even lead his funeral prayer amongst the ladies.

 

Now it is totally inconceivable that she would have held the beliefs of the 12ers with her having such a close connection to Al Shafi.

 

So another famous figure of ahle bayt, oops I mean offspring of Ali, that was misguided?

Edited by Abul_Hassan01

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Since you all can't agree on who is or isn't ahle bayt how about we refer to the term i'm using as the direct offspring of Ali.

 

Now no one can argue that the list of figures mentioned in the title post were the direct offspring of Ali. I am only using this terminology because no one has come to an agreement on the term ahle bayt.

 

The point is every 12er on here so far believes that the majority of the son's & daughters of Ali & Fatima were misguided & went astray.

 

Along with the list of over 50 members of Ali's offspring there are other notable members to be mentioned.

 

Who was one of the most famous women from the offspring of Ali? Sayeda Nafisa. Here's some info about her:

 

Sayyida Nafīsa (سيدة نفيسة) was the daughter of al-Hasan al-Anwar, the son of Zayd, son of Imam al-Hasan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. She was buried in Cairo, Egypt. In historical books,she is well-known for her worship, asceticism, narrating hadith, generosity and memorizing Qur'an. She was married to Ishaq al-Mu'tamin, the son of Imam al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

Ishaq al-Mu'tamin was famous for being pious, knowledgeable and reliable in narrating hadith. He witnessed Imam al-Kazim's Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã last will to his son, Imam al-Rida Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Abu Muhammad was the kunya (Arabic teknonym) of Ishaq; because he was well-known for being trustworthy, he was called al-Mu'tamin. Ishaq was born and raised in Urayd(an area in Medina).

 

Now here's the interesting part:

 

Her students travelled from faraway places and among them was Imam Idris al-Shafi’i,the man behind the Shafi’i school of fiqh. She financially sponsored his education for him.

 

It is well known that Imam Shafi & Sayida Nafisa had a close religious connection. It is said that she even lead his funeral prayer amongst the ladies.

 

Now it is totally inconceivable that she would have held the beliefs of the 12ers with her having such a close connection to Al Shafi.

 

So another famous figure of ahle bayt, oops I mean offspring of Ali, that was misguided?

Well done brother. They didn't hold the belief in 12 Imams because such belief did not even exist at the time. Hence, that's why you see many of the other Imams from the Ahl al-Bayt (as) claiming Imamate.

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Ahl albaayt , Shia view:

 

To the Shi’a, the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (S) consist of the following individuals:

 

Prophet Muhammad
Lady Fatima tuz Zahra
Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Imam Hassan
Imam Hussain
Imam Ali Zainul Aabideen
Imam Muhammad Ibn Ali
Imam Jafaar Ibn Muhammad
Imam Musa Ibn Jafaar
Imam Ali Ibn Musa
Imam Muhammad Ibn Ali
Imam Ali Ibn Muhammad
Imam Hassan Ibn Ali
Imam Hujjat Ibn Hassan

 

They are covered under the verse of purification. Last part of verse 33:33.

 

Ahl albayat: , Sunni view

 

1. The Prophet’s wives
2. The Prophet’s children
3. The Prophet’s freed slaves
4. Ahlel Kisa (People of the Cloak, i.e. Ali ibn Abi Talib’s family)
5. The family of Aqil
6. The offspring of Jafar
7. The offspring of Abbas
8. Salman al-Farsi
And perhaps some others we may have missed…

 

Post no. 3 link given below:

 

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?66464-Who-are-Ahl-e-Bayt&p=552657&viewfull=1#post552657

 

The  basic definition of Ahl albayat  from Shia consist of only 14 individuals.

 

The definition of Ahl albayat from Sunnis has unlimited members included in Ahl albayat,. The  whole  ummah (including all the companions and muslims) can be considered Ahl albayt of the prophet.

 

The majority is condemned by the Quran and believers are always  small in numbers.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Since you all can't agree on who is or isn't ahle bayt how about we refer to the term i'm using as the direct offspring of Ali.

 

Now no one can argue that the list of figures mentioned in the title post were the direct offspring of Ali. I am only using this terminology because no one has come to an agreement on the term ahle bayt.

 

The point is every 12er on here so far believes that the majority of the son's & daughters of Ali & Fatima were misguided & went astray.

 

Along with the list of over 50 members of Ali's offspring there are other notable members to be mentioned.

 

 

This is  a monumental LIE!  members have giving you, the account as to who  are the Ahlul bayt (as)  according to tradition narrated by Rasulillah (pbuh&hf) 

 

Furthermore, their isn't a  tradition from Rasulallah that: It was compulsory to follow the descendants of the Imam (as) who were not ordained by the  almighty ? Unless you can prove otherwise from Shia source?

Edited by power

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Ahlul Bayt [ra] with uppercase "A" and the general with lowercase "a".  Brilliant!  I have never laughed this hard when it comes to religious blunders.

 

Brother Abul_Hassan01, this is remarkable work. 

 

Your obviously a fool then. If I was to ask what Imam you follow and you said Imam Abu Hanifa and I said dumbo i meant who do you pray behind.

 

Therefore when writing its important to look at context, belief of the person speaking, and common every day usage.

 

Your despearte attempts make you look like a fool 

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(bismillah)

 

Lol, go read a few books instead of internet posts. You seem to gain nothing here nor does anyone gain anything from you except for a few laughs.

 

في امان الله

 

As a mod you must be a senior member of this forum. The above was your reply to the post where your deception was exposed?

The biggest laugh was when you tried to deceive the people by switching to the term Banu Hashim & saying yes there is nothing wrong with saying the majority of them went astray.

 

It is obvious you & every other 12er on here believes the majority of the offspring of Ali went astray, yet you are too deceitful to admit it verbatim & try to hide your twisted belief via switching the term to banu hashim.

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As a mod you must be a senior member of this forum. The above was your reply to the post where your deception was exposed?

The biggest laugh was when you tried to deceive the people by switching to the term Banu Hashim & saying yes there is nothing wrong with saying the majority of them went astray.

 

It is obvious you & every other 12er on here believes the majority of the offspring of Ali went astray, yet you are too deceitful to admit it verbatim & try to hide your twisted belief via switching the term to banu hashim.

lol.

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As a mod you must be a senior member of this forum. The above was your reply to the post where your deception was exposed?

The biggest laugh was when you tried to deceive the people by switching to the term Banu Hashim & saying yes there is nothing wrong with saying the majority of them went astray.

 

It is obvious you & every other 12er on here believes the majority of the offspring of Ali went astray, yet you are too deceitful to admit it verbatim & try to hide your twisted belief via switching the term to banu hashim.

In order to hold on to their doctrine of the '12 Imams, they pretty much have to.

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In order to hold on to their doctrine of the '12 Imams, they pretty much have to.

 

 

 

The  basic definition of Ahl albayat  from Shia consist of only 14 individuals.

 

The definition of Ahl albayat from Sunnis has unlimited members included in Ahl albayat,. The  whole  ummah (including all the companions and muslims) can be considered Ahl albayt of the prophet.

 

The majority is condemned by the Quran and believers are always  small in numbers.

 

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In order to hold on to their doctrine of the '12 Imams, they pretty much have to.

 

If I was to say that there is pretty much damning evidence to suggest that the proper way to read Salaat is with open arms and that the majority of Ahle Sunnat is reading it wrong, what would you say.

 

You seem to hold great store by 'majority'.

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First of all no one is claiming that the majority of Ali's descendants went astray.

 

Second of all there wouldn't be anything wrong with someone who would hold that belief unless you value your precious Bukhari more than Quran:

 

and certainly we sent Noah and Abraham and we gave to their offspring the (gift of) prophecy and the book; so there are among them those who go aright, and most of them are transgressors 57:26

 

lastly regarding the definition of Ahlulbayt, I know that in our books we use Alaihi salam after the names of people like Jafar Tayyar and Muslim ibn Aqeel. So while it may be true that we don't consider them Ahlulbayt per se (I doubt that myself but anyways) we clearly make a distinction between them and later Sayyids.

Edited by Abu Nasr

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First of all no one is claiming that the majority of Ali's descendants went astray.

 

 

 

Right lets see shall we:

 

 

Allah [swt] knows best what's in their hearts and he will judge each person on an individual basis, and we believe in his justice.

 

 

 

 

 

Rasulallah(saww), never said to follow and love EVERY single member of his descendents. Neither were all of them ahlul bayt. Through sahih hadiths only 14 individuals are considered to be from Ahlul bayt(AS).

 

 

 

The rightly guided are from the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. but not all members of the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. are rightly guided.

 

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [ Allah ] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [ Allah ] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."
 

 

 

 

Besides that honouring all members of the Ahl al-Bayt unconditionally just because they're Ahl al-Bayt is also an attitude that is well-known when it comes to all Sahaba in sunni circles. 

 

 

 

If really do not understand where your obsessions with numbers, majority, minority comes from. You better go and read Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet once came out to us and said, "Some nations were displayed before me. A prophet would pass in front of me with one man, and another with two men, and another with a group of people. and another with nobody with him

 

 

... and the majority of the progeny of Muhammad s.a.w. (if true) didn't follow the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. ....

.... the truth is not about numbers. 

 

 

Yeah, no problem, i would stand up and say to: Zayd that you are not part of of Ahlul bayt that has been ordained by Allah swt for Imamate! What s the big deal here? Zayd new that his brother was  ordained Imamate.

 

 

I think that brother Abu al-Hassan thinks that as Sunni muslims believe all Sahaba were good even when they wished eachother Eternal Fire or when one raped the wive of the other, he thinks that Shia muslims also believe that all members and offspring of the Ahl al-Bayt are guided as well. 

That is because of the Sunni spectacles he views the surrounding world through.

 

 

In the Holy Quran even some  Prophets own family members were misguided, and non believers. So whats the big deal..... 

 

 

That's what I was thinking. The wife and son of Nuh a.s., the wife of Lut a.s., Abu Lahab the uncle of Rasulullah s.a.w. and more examples.

 

 

 

 

 

According to sunnis and shias, Imam Hasan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) are the Prophet's household/family  members/ahlul bayt, but his own son Ibrahim is not. 

 

Read more into sunni hadiths as to why that is and you can probably answer both questions. Also, look at certain verses of the Qur'an like the ones I've provided below:

 

When Prophet Noah's (pbuh) son was about to drown:

 

“O my Lord!  Verily my son is of my family!  And certainly your promise is true and you are the Most Just of the judges.” (Quran 11:45) Note how Prophet Noah (pbuh) is saying his son is of his ahl الأَهْل) (family).

 

What does Allah swt. say?

 

“He said: ‘Oh Noah!  Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge!  I admonish you, lest you be one of the ignorants.’” (Quran 11:46)

 

What we can deduce is, someone is not from your ahl until he is obedient to Allah swt. 

 

 

 

 
 

 

 
In reality, after understanding that the Prophet's household is not equivalent to his lineage, there really is no further discussion to be had here. 
 
 
I would strongly urge you to read the Qur'an and your own hadiths. Being a prophet's son, or from his lineage does not automatically make you guided. What about Prophet Adam's (pbuhahf) lineage? Allah swt. says most will be in hell. What about Prophet Moses' (pbuh) lineage? Honestly, lineage is something that's far off, why not look at households?
 
How about Prophet Noah (pbuh), were his son and wife not misguided? How about Prophet Lut (pbuhahf), was his wife not misguided? Much like the offspring of Prophets, some offspring of the 12 shia imams (pbuh) were misguided and would try to take Imamat away from those Allah swt. had appointed it for.
 
To answer your new statement, whether the information you've brought forth is authentic or not, shias have no issue in believing a majority or minority of any lineage were misguided. It makes no difference to us given the examples set in the Qur'an. 

 

 

 

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

 

The Ahl al-Bayt Khass are 14 عليهم أفضل الصلاة والسلام and we believe they were the epitome of guidance, thus the guides. If you mean by "Ahl al-Bayt" people related the Prophet [sawa] via blood, then why would that bother us? Islam is not tribalism and blood relations save no one. We hold that the majority of the Companions and the Umma at large deviated and are deviated. We believe Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام's own son al-Aftah is an impostor and deserving of Hellfire. Why would it bother us to say most of Bani Hashim deviated?

 

"Surely, the religion of Allah is not known (or judged) by the people, it is recognized by the sign of Truth. Know the Truth, and you shall know its people."

 

في أمان الله

 

 

 

The  basic definition of Ahl albayat  from Shia consist of only 14 individuals.

 

The definition of Ahl albayat from Sunnis has unlimited members included in Ahl albayat,. The  whole  ummah (including all the companions and muslims) can be considered Ahl albayt of the prophet.

 

The majority is condemned by the Quran and believers are always  small in numbers.

 

Regards

 

 

So what was that you were saying Abu Nasr?

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and certainly we sent Noah and Abraham and we gave to their offspring the (gift of) prophecy and the book; so there are among them those who go aright, and most of them are transgressors 57:26

 

Nice post brother, It confirms the entire truth hidden in the history and as response to OP. Thus any claim contrary  to  this verse is rejected.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Nice post brother, It confirms the entire truth hidden in the history and as response to OP. Thus any claim contrary  to  this verse is rejected.

 

Regards

 

Strange on how you use hadith like al taqalayn to prove we must follow only ahle bayt. Why didn't the Prophet (peace & blessing be upon him) mention that only selected members are ahle bayt? Where did he say majority of the will be astray?

Where did he say none of Al Hasan's sons are ahle bayt?

 

Its like calling yourselves animal lovers but you only like cats & hate the rest.

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Strange on how you use hadith like al taqalayn to prove we must follow only ahle bayt. Why didn't the Prophet (peace & blessing be upon him) mention that only selected members are ahle bayt? Where did he say majority of the will be astray?

Where did he say none of Al Hasan's sons are ahle bayt?

 

Its like calling yourselves animal lovers but you only like cats & hate the rest.

 

You seem unaware of the hadith about verse of purification. (last part 33:33)

 

Dont you know only 5 were taken in the cloak? Are the sayings of the wives of the prophets not the same?

 

Similarity you seems completely unaware of the hadith of 12 leaders / imams / caliphs/successor..

 

Do you deny the verse of Quran condemning the majority like 57:26?

 

The names of 12 successors / leaders / imams from Ahl albayat have been mentioned in many traditions,

 

Also the sunni dont a SINGLE hadith in which their leader 12 names are mentioned. 

 

We love and follow Ahl albayat and respect what is  associated to Ahl albayt and we are not suicide bombers like you have. We love and respect ahl albayat and we lowe humanity. 

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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 We believe Imam al-Sadiq عليه السلام's own son al-Aftah is an impostor and deserving of Hellfire. Why would it bother us to say most of Bani Hashim deviated?

 

 

There is a trend. To brush away the whole line of Al Hasan. Like none of his sons/daughters & their lineage were ahle bayt.

Also Abdullah Al Aftah was the eldest son  of Imam Jafar Sadiq (after Ismail who passed away before his father). He died around 70 days after his father. Now according to 12ers he was an imposter & deserving of hell fire? Why? Because his existence didn't conform to your beliefs?

Also Jafar, the son of the 10th Imam & brother of the 11th Imam Hasan Al Askari. The 12ers say he is a liar because he denied the existence (like majority of all people do) of the fictitious birth of the so called 12th hidden Imam. See how members of the household are cast to hellfire by the 12ers just to keep alive their beliefs? 

Edited by Abul_Hassan01

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Strange on how you use hadith like al taqalayn to prove we must follow only ahle bayt. Why didn't the Prophet (peace & blessing be upon him) mention that only selected members are ahle bayt? Where did he say majority of the will be astray?

Where did he say none of Al Hasan's sons are ahle bayt?

 

Its like calling yourselves animal lovers but you only like cats & hate the rest.

What does it mean to hold fast the Holy Quran and the Ahl al-Bayt and why is it said that they will not separate untill the End of Times so the muslims of today also have to hold fast unto them?

Does it mean that we have to do salawat on them in our salat? Is that what is meant with hold fast to the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. or is it much more?

Strange indeed that today we do not know members of the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. who we can help carrying their grocery or helping them financially or taking care of their children when they have to go to a meeting. So how can I hold fast unto them?

The hadith from Imam Malik  which says hold fast to the Holy Quran and the Sunnah does at least make more sense. I know what to do then but what does it mean to hold fast unto the Ahl al-Bayt a.s.?

It's all strange ..

Edited by Skanderbeg

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