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In the Name of God بسم الله

Marja Forbids Tatbir

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On 8/14/2015 at 0:43 PM, mighdad said:

All even Sayed Khamenei placed this condition. Actually this is the base of the ruling but Sayed Khamenei believes Tatbir does ruin reputation of Madzhab.

Actually he belives it has no place in madzhab at all. Ayatollah bahjat, meshkini(not a marja), motahari(not a marja), lankarani, mesbah(not a marja) were/are also against it in various degrees.

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I know a lot says its haram if it damage the shia view. but im interested in the marjas who says it is Haram and that it does not have anything to do with mourning.

Thanks to all the answers i will read about the marjas that is mentioned :)

On 8/14/2015 at 7:38 PM, syed_shia said:

Tatbir, zanjeer is all a relatively new act introduced in the mourning ritual. Those who try to justify it use rather weak hadith to kid themselves.

Do you really need a fatwa to prove this is haraam?

No i dont need something to prove it for me - but i will not follow one who is saying it is halal og even good. Next time please dont judge to fast :)

On 8/12/2015 at 9:12 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

sayed Khamene'i

shaykh Makarem Shirazi

shaykh Muhammad al-Ya'qubi

isnt Muhammad al-Ya'qubi from our sunni brothers? :)

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On 8/14/2015 at 7:53 PM, Andreas Core said:

I know a lot says its haram if it damage the shia view. but im interested in the marjas who says it is Haram and that it does not have anything to do with mourning.

Imam Khamenei has this view and Sayyed Fadlallah afaik.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VC4dv-Fvlso

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Azadari is Ahl ul bait's tradition ! It has a purpose : to invite mankind to cry the most unjust loss of the magnificent human being who has been butchered with his loyal companions and beheaded for the sake of satanic ruling, cry because of the supplices inflected after that on the orphans and the widows of their exalted pure family by this same satanic ruling, and above all to praise indefinitly the persecuted (as) and martyrs (as) in front of people to show them how, at times of the most difficult tribulations and time of the most hard fightings, they (as) irreproachably maintained full Taqwa for Allah's pleasure and against satanics' pressure, and that until death.

Tell me what are more eloquent than the tears of Ali ibn al Hussein (as) and the complaint of Amiral muminin's daughter (as)?

Please people! Explain me how can someone be attracted toward ahl ul bait's claim of truth in the tatbir's manner? Haven't Masumen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã told us to propageted their teaching so that people's heart will be sympathizing and relieved?

"Truly, i don't fear the polytheist for my ummah, that which cause me pain are the ignorants and the hypocrites amongs my ummah" What are the roots of ahl ul bait's sufferings? And how they teach us to behave in times of suffering? by tatbir? how can we teach a child to be ahl ul bait's friend by wounding his forehead with sword? is this sunna?

this is unbearable!

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On 2/25/2016 at 2:57 PM, Salman Kadheem said:

Azadari is Ahl ul bait's tradition ! It has a purpose : to invite mankind to cry the most unjust loss of the magnificent human being who has been butchered with his loyal companions and beheaded for the sake of satanic ruling, cry because of the supplices inflected after that on the orphans and the widows of their exalted pure family by this same satanic ruling, and above all to praise indefinitly the persecuted (as) and martyrs (as) in front of people to show them how, at times of the most difficult tribulations and time of the most hard fightings, they (as) irreproachably maintained full Taqwa for Allah's pleasure and against satanics' pressure, and that until death.

Tell me what are more eloquent than the tears of Ali ibn al Hussein (as) and the complaint of Amiral muminin's daughter (as)?

Please people! Explain me how can someone be attracted toward ahl ul bait's claim of truth in the tatbir's manner? Haven't Masumen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã told us to propageted their teaching so that people's heart will be sympathizing and relieved?

"Truly, i don't fear the polytheist for my ummah, that which cause me pain are the ignorants and the hypocrites amongs my ummah" What are the roots of ahl ul bait's sufferings? And how they teach us to behave in times of suffering? by tatbir? how can we teach a child to be ahl ul bait's friend by wounding his forehead with sword? is this sunna?

this is unbearable!

tatbir today, matam tomorrow, masaib the day after and pretty soon we will be down to doing an egg hunt for Ashura much like is done on Easter.

I know you mean well brother but I guarantee you people have a problem with every single aspect of azadari so while you may choose to draw the line at tatbir, someone else will pop-up questioning matam, etc. Its gotten so bad that there was an argument at my center 2 years ago about whether a majlis should start with hadees-e-kisa or replaced by surah yaseen.

If someone rejects shiaism because of tatbir that is practiced by may be 10-15% then so be it.

All or nothing as far as I am concerned.

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On 2/25/2016 at 3:15 PM, shiaman14 said:

tatbir today, matam tomorrow, masaib the day after and pretty soon we will be down to doing an egg hunt for Ashura much like is done on Easter.

I know you mean well brother but I guarantee you people have a problem with every single aspect of azadari so while you may choose to draw the line at tatbir, someone else will pop-up questioning matam, etc. Its gotten so bad that there was an argument at my center 2 years ago about whether a majlis should start with hadees-e-kisa or replaced by surah yaseen.

If someone rejects shiaism because of tatbir that is practiced by may be 10-15% then so be it.

All or nothing as far as I am concerned.

Truth is clearly distinct from falsehood. Tatbir is not a part of the way Ahl ul bayt's teach us azadari. When Salat has been ordered to be apply, sunna mentionned the details of its perfomances. Tell me where the hadith tell us to allow tatbir?

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On 2/25/2016 at 4:00 PM, Salman Kadheem said:

Truth is clearly distinct from falsehood. Tatbir is not a part of the way Ahl ul bayt's teach us azadari. When Salat has been ordered to be apply, sunna mentionned the details of its perfomances. Tell me where the hadith tell us to allow tatbir?

Tatbir has been going on since immediately after Karbala. First to start it were Sulaiman bin Sird and the tawabeen. The onus would be on you to bring forth a hadith from Imam Sajjad forbidding it or from any imam for that matter.

I believe in Shia fiqh generally we are allowed to do anything unless it is forbidden. For example, some people say instead of tatbir people should just donate blood. Well, there is no specific hadith (to my knowledge) that says we should give blood but that doesn't mean it is forbidden.

So brother, the onus is on you to provide a hadith that expressly forbids tatbir.

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2 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

dont do it if it leads to a bad impression.

anti tatbir think that means dont do it at all

pro tatbir think that means do it in private

As in do it behind closed doors and for God's sake don't make videos and post them online

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On 26/2/2016 at 1:23 AM, shiaman14 said:

As in do it behind closed doors and for God's sake don't make videos and post them online

*shrugs* this discussion is regarding the permissability of tatbir. the question was does sayed sistani allow tatbir? the answer is yes, with conditions. his views are in line with most other najaf based scholars, who agree with tatbir to various degrees. his peers/ colleagues like sheilkh basheer najafy are extremely pro tatbir

I do not follow sayed sistani however I can appreciate his wisdom. in the UK by law we have to do it in private anyway so its a non issue

Edited by DigitalUmmah
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11 hours ago, DigitalUmmah said:

*shrugs* this discussion is regarding the permissability of tatbir. the question was does sayed sistani allow tatbir? the answer is yes, with conditions. his views are in line with most other najaf based scholars, who agree with tatbir to various degrees. his peers/ colleagues like sheilkh basheer najafy are extremely pro tatbir

I do not follow sayed sistani however I can appreciate his wisdom. in the UK by law we have to do it in private anyway so its a non issue

Easy brother, no need to *shrugs*. I am agreeing with you that Sistani says it is permissible under certain conditions. I was just giving an example of what he means.

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46 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Easy brother, no need to *shrugs*. I am agreeing with you that Sistani says it is permissible under certain conditions. I was just giving an example of what he means.

chill man, once upon a time I would be breathing fire out of my nostrils, but that part of me is gone now. to me, my grave. to others, theirs.

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He didn't say so. He gave explanations on the opinions against its practice. Those marjas who allow it aren't wrong but giving their religious opinion on it after their study. Each individual has the responsibility to choose the marja he considers more knowledgeable in this matter. It's not so much a matter of right and wrong, but a matter of choice and opinion.

I would avoid comparing any of these rituals to something as easter. Remember for whom they are, and for what reason people practice them.

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On 2/25/2016 at 4:57 PM, shiaman14 said:

Tatbir has been going on since immediately after Karbala. First to start it were Sulaiman bin Sird and the tawabeen. The onus would be on you to bring forth a hadith from Imam Sajjad forbidding it or from any imam for that matter.

I believe in Shia fiqh generally we are allowed to do anything unless it is forbidden. For example, some people say instead of tatbir people should just donate blood. Well, there is no specific hadith (to my knowledge) that says we should give blood but that doesn't mean it is forbidden.

So brother, the onus is on you to provide a hadith that expressly forbids tatbir.

Have you one hadith that explicitly indicates tatbir to be a part of azadari, or explicitly indicates it (tatbir) to be mustahabb, or at least, have you one hadith in which we can read that Masumeen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã explicitly praise Sulaiman bin Sird and the tawabeen for this act (tatbir)?

However, there are numerous hadith that expressly recommand us to restrain ourselves to the deeds perfomed and prescribed by the Masumeen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

Imam Hassan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said : The most preferable adornment is graceful manners
Imam Hassan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said : In the halal of the dunya there is account, and in its haram there is punishment, and in its confusions there is admonition.
Rasullallah (pbuh) said : The parable of my Ahlul Bayt (Ahl al-Bayt) is that of the boat of Noah, whoever gets aboard it is saved and whoever stays away from it is drowned.
imam Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said : Become an ornament for us, do not be a disgrace for us.
Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind them as you would thereby be ruined Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 96

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Ayatullah Esfahani (1860–1946) was the highest ranking Shia jurist and the sole Marja of his time. He openly supported the stance of Ayatullah Muhsin Al-Amin on this issue.

“The usage of swords, chains, drums, horns and the likes today, which have become common in mourning ceremonies on Ashura, is definitely forbidden and against religious doctrine.”

Dayrah al-Ma”arif Tashayu’, v.2, p.531; A’yan al-Shia, v.10, p.378; Professor Hassan Shabir, Tarikh Iraq Mu’asir, v.2, p.340

tatbir.org

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On 3/5/2016 at 3:29 PM, Salman Kadheem said:

Have you one hadith that explicitly indicates tatbir to be a part of azadari, or explicitly indicates it (tatbir) to be mustahabb, or at least, have you one hadith in which we can read that Masumeen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã explicitly praise Sulaiman bin Sird and the tawabeen for this act (tatbir)?

However, there are numerous hadith that expressly recommand us to restrain ourselves to the deeds perfomed and prescribed by the Masumeen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã

Imam Hassan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said : The most preferable adornment is graceful manners
Imam Hassan Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said : In the halal of the dunya there is account, and in its haram there is punishment, and in its confusions there is admonition.
Rasullallah (pbuh) said : The parable of my Ahlul Bayt (Ahl al-Bayt) is that of the boat of Noah, whoever gets aboard it is saved and whoever stays away from it is drowned.
imam Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said : Become an ornament for us, do not be a disgrace for us.
Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã said Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind them as you would thereby be ruined Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 96

Have you one hadith that explicitly forbids tatbir to be a part of azadari, or explicitly indicates it (tatbir) to be makrouh, or at least, have you one hadith in which we can read that Masumeen Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã explicitly condemn Sulaiman bin Sird and the tawabeen for this act (tatbir)?

On 3/5/2016 at 3:37 PM, Salman Kadheem said:

If blood matam and hitting oneself with chains, which are practiced in Muharram, cause serious harm, or harm or ridicule the religion and sect then it is impermissible.”

Al-Masa’il al-Shar’iyah, istifta’at Imam Khoei, al-Ibadat and al-Tariq al-Najah, v.2, p.445

IF...

but what IF it doesn't. For example, if I do in my garage, doors closed, no cameras. Good?

Ayatollah Bashir Najafi expressly allows it and almost even encourages it. Ayatollah Sistani allows it under similar circumstances as Ayatollah Khoei.

Unless Islam expressly forbids something, it is allowed.

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