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Dragon123

Marrying Less "traditional" Women

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A lot of this post is more personal/cultural over religious.  Although religion should be a primary factor in selecting a spouse, compatibility on others levels are important too.

 

 

A man questioned the Prophet of Islam (s.a.w.s.), “Whom must we marry?”

He replied, “The suitable (matches).”

“Who are the suitable matches?”

The Prophet (s.a.) responded, “Some of the faithfuls are match for others.”

 

While there a lot of intangible qualities we look for and experience during a relationship, a lot guys (and girls) look for "traditional" wife/motherly/cultural qualities as well.

 

How do you guys feel about the following aspects of a women if she lacks some of these "traditional" qualities?

 

1. Career oriented and seeks fulfillment in the work place.

2. Has no skills or desire to be a traditional housewife. Cannot cook or clean. Has relied on parents/society for such things.

3. Emotionally cutoff. Does not readily express or communicate emotions. Will keep things bottled up inside or not sure how to express them.

4. Is not the affectionate/nurturing type. More logical and less sentimental in thinking.

5. Very independent. Does not depend on husband and others for fulfillment.

6. Outgoing and active. Does not want to stay at the home. Constantly planning new activities to do.

 

Are some of them positives or negatives? How important are the above qualities to you? Input from married people are especially appreciated.

Edited by Dragon123

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This was seriously the most depressing and cringing article I've ever read.  On so many levels.  The kind that actually gives a visceral reaction. 

 

Maybe I'll dissect and explain why later, I need to take a walk.

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A lot of this post is more personal/cultural over religious.  Although religion should be a primary factor in selecting a spouse, compatibility on others levels are important too.

 

 

While there a lot of intangible qualities we look for and experience during a relationship, a lot guys (and girls) look for "traditional" wife/motherly/cultural qualities as well.

 

How do you guys feel about the following aspects of a women if she lacks some of these "traditional" qualities?

 

1. Career oriented and seeks fulfillment in the work place.

2. Has no skills or desire to be a traditional housewife. Cannot cook or clean. Has relied on parents/society for such things.

3. Emotionally cutoff. Does not readily express or communicate emotions. Will keep things bottled up inside or not sure how to express them.

4. Is not the affectionate/nurturing type. More logical and less sentimental in thinking.

5. Very independent. Does not depend on husband and others for fulfillment.

6. Outgoing and active. Does not want to stay at the home. Constantly planning new activities to do.

 

Are some of them positives or negatives? How important are the above qualities to you? Input from married people are especially appreciated.

 

And what positive qualities would such a person have? They are good looking? Funny?

 

How can a person marry a person like this?

 

These things don't have much to do with being "traditional"

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1. No

2. NO

3. NOooo

4. No

5. Hmmm..okay No. A husband should depend on his wife for some things and a wife should depend on her husband for some things.

6. NO

Yeah I meant at least she is not the needy clingy type. Edited by starlight

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3. No way, I have to know what's going on with her in life.

4. If she's not affectionate and doesn't express that's a problem.. you won't have anyone to lean on or feel good and loved.

Rest are just plain no's

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It's a fallacy to paint an ambitious, career-oriented women as a cold, harsh creature lacking affection!

 

This is the assertion the article itself is making.  Not only that, but they're saying this can be part of a healthy, constructive relationship.

 

Our antennae should be detecting something more insidious here. 

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One of the problems with my post is obviously defining traditional and what that entails. "Traditional" means something different to different people. I am not interested in coming up with a definition really but I did address specifics. I have not defined them as good or bad a priori either as some here would seem to suggest.

 

Also, the article magma is addressing got edited out earlier but I couldn't put it back in for some reason. Here is is again. I think its extreme in some ways but spot on in other ways:

http://elitedaily.com/dating/relationship-emotionally-unavilable-woman/820429/

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1. Career oriented and seeks fulfillment in the work place.

2. Has no skills or desire to be a traditional housewife. Cannot cook or clean. Has relied on parents/society for such things.

3. Emotionally cutoff. Does not readily express or communicate emotions. Will keep things bottled up inside or not sure how to express them.

4. Is not the affectionate/nurturing type. More logical and less sentimental in thinking.

5. Very independent. Does not depend on husband and others for fulfillment.

6. Outgoing and active. Does not want to stay at the home. Constantly planning new activities to do.

 

Are some of them positives or negatives? How important are the above qualities to you? Input from married people are especially appreciated.

 

The only one in your list that i see as intrinsically negative is 3. Maybe there are people who dont mind partners who are emotionally cut off, but i dont think its a healthy way to be.

 

With regard to the others, seeking satisfaction in the workplace is normal. Whether youre working to survive or working as a vocation and exercise in self development, people's jobs can be hugely fulfilling and productive. If you want a wife that doesnt work then thats obviously a quality youre not going to be interested in.

 

Homing making skills can be learnt and have to be learnt, not enjoying such activities or being adept at them is not a moral flaw. If you want a wife who has a passion for cooking however then your probably going to take it into consideration.

 

Logic is a positive surely, but it doesnt have to be at the expense of affection. Thats usually something women accuse men of (and men accuse women of being too emotional and irrational!). 'Too logical' or 'too emotional' is subjective. If youre a person who enjoys a lot of tactile affection then youre probably going to find a not overtly affectionate woman very frustrating to be with. Some men wouldnt mind that so much though.

 

Not depending on someone for your fulfillment is actually a very positive and healthy goal imo. In relationships it can cause dischord if theres a big difference between independence levels though. If you need someone to need you (and the vast majority of us seem to find comfort in that) then a very independent person is probably going to seem quite distant and maybe even threatening. Many people would actually really appreciate that quality though and be striving for it themselves also.

 

Being outgoing and active is usually considered a positive thing, especially in the US it seems, but I think this quality has a strong cultural componant to it, particularly with regards to women. Some societies are percieved as being more dangerous by the people in them than other societies, and for that reason a husband might be anxious about his wife being out and about all over the place, especially if these activities are without a companion or guardian. In others cultures it would seem less threatening however and husbands may even encourage it, particularly if they have a time consuming hobbies themselves.

Edited by Ruq

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Independence per se is not a problem and can be a strength, but a mutual recognition of bases of interpersonal dependence is a must, IMHO.

 

What the romantics don't realise or refuse to acknowledge are the economic etc. bases for marriage. An interesting statistic that has emerged in recent years in the west is the rising level of divorce amongst people of retirement age, because of increasing levels of affluence in this group of people.

 

E.g. see this story:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/divorce/10225335/Til-retirement-us-do-part-silver-splitter-divorces-up-by-three-quarters-in-generation.html

 

What does that have to do with this topic?

 

Well, the more independent two people are, the easier a split is going to be. The more you build in dependence and the more you design into the foundations of a relationship 'messiness' and the harder breaking up will be, the more likely it is that two people will stay together.

 

Now, of course, people will argue that it will mean permanent unhappiness. But the reverse is that it gives people more time and incentive to come to a modus vivendi rather than splitting at the first opportunity.

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If there is mutual respect, understanding, compassion and commitment then the rest of all these specifics just tend to work themselves out.  People tend to be too obsessive about these details without working out whether their foundational value systems are compatible or not.

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If there is mutual respect, understanding, compassion and commitment 

 

Ah, amor vincit omnia, but sometimes they need a helping hand.

 

To use an analogy, you may have all the commitment, respect and belief in the world when it comes to Apple's brand values.

 

But when it comes to sticking with Apple, nothing beats the practical fear of having to spend ages trying to synch your stuff to an android OS.

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In one of psychology lectures, the prof was giving a story as an example of personality traits in humans . He said a man came to him seeking help in marital issues. He is often divorcing his women because they are demanding and never settling at home. His objections were not accepted by his ex wives nor their families as he expected from them to no go shopping, not visiting their families once a week etc etc of what's considered normal by the society standards.

The man was paranoid.

So the prof introduced him to one of his patients whom her family found her to be difficult for marriage. They got married and the man came back to the prof very happy. He kept praising the wife like an angel and best of best. He said she never feel like visiting her family nor go out shopping. She doesn't even answer the phone nor the door. She was perfect for him and he was perfect for her as he didn't demand from her any social duty. She was schizoid.

 

 

Another classical case of marriage is "extreme love, zero tolerance". This happens in case of the man who is very practical , serious, punctual and straight all the way through his life, very organised etc

The woman who fell in love with this cold personality (she sees him as wise and mysterious etc) is the overly happy, partying, risk taking etc sort of personality. He gets attracted to her over joyful character and she gets attracted to his stable peaceful demeanour.

This marriage is meant to fail. The man will come home, will find candles and roses and romantic dinner awaiting him, he will call it off and waste of time and money. Wife will get disappointed once and twice and for ever. They will get divorce but will still love each other.

 

Restricting the factors of marriage success to material stuff isn't correct. Prophet married Sayyida Khadija, she was the one with capital and he was hired by her.

Imam Ali sold some of hand work of Sayyida Fatimah to support them financially.

Many of women i know who earn more than their husbands or an equal amount or a bit less, they are very happy. Many women who owns nothing seek divorce for financial or non financial reasons (husband failing to provide money, safety or love for the family).

Many men divorce their women due to interfamily troubles with in laws, not able to get pregnant or wife being rude and unable to show appreciation to husband struggle.

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A lot of this post is more personal/cultural over religious.  Although religion should be a primary factor in selecting a spouse, compatibility on others levels are important too.

 

 

While there a lot of intangible qualities we look for and experience during a relationship, a lot guys (and girls) look for "traditional" wife/motherly/cultural qualities as well.

 

How do you guys feel about the following aspects of a women if she lacks some of these "traditional" qualities?

 

1. Career oriented and seeks fulfillment in the work place.

2. Has no skills or desire to be a traditional housewife. Cannot cook or clean. Has relied on parents/society for such things.

3. Emotionally cutoff. Does not readily express or communicate emotions. Will keep things bottled up inside or not sure how to express them.

4. Is not the affectionate/nurturing type. More logical and less sentimental in thinking.

5. Very independent. Does not depend on husband and others for fulfillment.

6. Outgoing and active. Does not want to stay at the home. Constantly planning new activities to do.

 

Are some of them positives or negatives? How important are the above qualities to you? Input from married people are especially appreciated.

 

This would apply on an individual/personal basis.  My husband wishes me to have a career, although I am pursuing a traditionally feminine one: teaching.  That being said, I do perform the traditional role of cooking and cleaning.  I think most men would be put off by 3 as this is rather detrimental to a marriage. When I was younger, I was quite aloof; however, this came from a place of stubborn character as I disliked the common trope of women being emotional, irrational wrecks so to say.  Only, when I grew older did I realize emotions are not a sign of weakness, and the real weakness lies in one's inability to recognize and validate their innately emotional behavior.  However, some of these conflict with Islamic values as well.  Women (and men) should show affection and emotion to their partners, as this indicates their love towards their partners, and decreases any possible discord or insecurity on the part of the partner.  Men wish to be loved (as women do) and want  to be wanted, so to say.  If a woman shows her affection for her husband at home he will have no need to seek it elsewhere.  The traditional aspect pertains to the specific situation of the couple; if the man enjoys cooking/cleaning, and the woman does not, I see no problem.  These issues need to be discussed prior to marriage as expectations need to be settled, and the couple needs to "fit."

 

5. Independence is not necessarily a negative thing; we are all adults and need to function as one, lol. However, both sexes need to be "needed," and a problem occurs when one spouse feels unwanted or insignificant.  I consider myself independent in terms of education and such; however, I still show my husband that I need to rely on him for some matters, and he needs to rely on me for others (like keeping the house from being a horrible mess, lol).  Women, believe it or not, are capable of logical thinking and reasoning; and again, the idea of "rationalism" is entirely subjective.  For example, is it really "logical" and "rational" to maintain utmost rationality when the matter requires emotion or sentiments? There are times when we must act out of heart, and act out of logic.  Though women are naturally more emotional, as Allah swt has created us so, this does not mean women are devoid of logic, and does not mean men are devoid of emotion.  Being absolutely aloof 100% of the time, however, does no good to anyone involved. A woman's (or man's) lack of affection may be interpreted as a lack of love; this causes conflict indisputably.

 

6. I see this mostly depends upon the culture. In America, many Muslim women live active lives outside the home, and this is not necessarily bad. Especially, if this provides fulfillment.  Staying at the home constantly causes  a "stir crazy" sentiment, and may cause dissatisfaction on part of the woman, creating strife within the household.  Just because she is active outside the home does not mean she is pursuing haram activities.  As long as she is observing modesty, I see no issue here.  Plus, it gives the woman something to discuss with the husband rather than the old "the cat broke the blinds again" sort of mundane things (my cat incessantly jumps on our windows and breaks the blinds--I think she is plotting to destroy my modesty, so people see me).

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Just make sure that the non-traditional woman in your post is married to a 'non-traditional man'. Otherwise you may see marital problems where one spouse may see that they are held back because of 'traditional' values.

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1. Career oriented and seeks fulfillment in the work place.

2. Has no skills or desire to be a traditional housewife. Cannot cook or clean. Has relied on parents/society for such things.

3. Emotionally cutoff. Does not readily express or communicate emotions. Will keep things bottled up inside or not sure how to express them.

4. Is not the affectionate/nurturing type. More logical and less sentimental in thinking.

5. Very independent. Does not depend on husband and others for fulfillment.

6. Outgoing and active. Does not want to stay at the home. Constantly planning new activities to do.

Honestly, what's the point of getting married to a woman like this?

If you are a man who is providing for his family, then why would you want a woman to do the same exact thing?  It's like having two people driving the same car together.

So you both go to work then both come home and both have to clean and cook and take care of the kids?  Seems like a lot more work and stress for all sides and is a much more inefficient way of living.

And if a woman wants money for security, there are so many opportunities online alhamdulillah.  You don't have to slave away in an office 8 hours a day

 

i'm not saying a woman should be cooped up in a house all day but marriage is a partnership, one side strengthens the weaknesses of others.  Each person has a role that contributes to the overall strength of the partnership.  

Edited by ImamAliLover

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