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Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck

Twelver Shiism And Separation Of State And Religio

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Although it is not the traditional position, some Shi'a scholars have indeed stated that the Hadd punishments are not applicable during the time of the occultation of the Twelfth Imam.

 

I don't have any names with me right now, but I might update when I get the names. Or someone else will comment.

 

Anyway, I prefer the traditional position :)

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I just know that many people from fadak tv are for a separation of religion and state and say that its not possible to do an islamic state or do the death penalty without an infaillible imam.

 

Sayyed Muhammad al-Shirazi advocated for Wilayat al-Faqih, he however had a different interpretation than Sayyed al-Khomeini. He believed that the ulema should do a shura together for leadership, or something like that.

 

That's what Muhammad al-Shirazi says, as for the people you mentioned, I don't know. This was just to hold some confusion.

Edited by The Batman

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Although it is not the traditional position, some Shi'a scholars have indeed stated that the Hadd punishments are not applicable during the time of the occultation of the Twelfth Imam.

 

I don't have any names with me right now, but I might update when I get the names. Or someone else will comment.

 

Anyway, I prefer the traditional position :)

Sayed Ahmad al Khunsari (ra).

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 the Hadd punishments are not applicable during the time of the occultation of the Twelfth Imam.

 

This is technically not even close to being a separation of government and religion. It is merely a change in religious law in accordance to circumstance.

 

Religion isn't restricted to only certain elements of the penal code. Religion is much more than that.

 

How many ulama would say that it is permissible for a government in a muslim country to have a referendum on the lawfulness of abortion? If they say it is impermissible (to hold the referendum), then they have not separated religion and government.

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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Hello.

 

Do you know any Twelver Shia thinkers (Ayatollahs, Grand Ayatollahs etc.) who postulated western-like separation of religion and state i.e. supported democracy and postulated that obeying sharia becomes a personal choice?

It is an interwind question.

Did western countries separate religion from state, or did they separate christianity from state?

 

A religion is a number of laws concerning the individuals AND the community. Some laws in Islam makes it exclusively impossible to get religion separated from state.

It is illegal to seek ruling other than the islamic ruling, it is illegal to seek non muslims court for such purpose. It is a great sin to abandon "speaking against corruption" i.e., a muslim must either work on changing the corruption (ban on alcohol) or speaking against it or avoiding it in visible protest against it manner. 

In very extreme cases of weakness and fear, muslim can show their agreement on alcohol consumption to be moral act but a muslim must maintain an inner feeling of dissociation from alcohol.

 

Western countries - to be precise the ruling elites- don't feel comfortable with the muslims way and islam way in a community. It can affect commerce and fianance. It can affect Bnaking and interest. It can affect industries like porn and entertainment etc.

If a community was given a say in their internal affairs and they were muslims then they should- it is not an option because if they chose the opposite they will be sinners- they should choose policies that are inline with islamic teachings.

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It also depends on one's definition of "religion".  I always considered a religion to be any way of life, any guiding ideology, or overarching principle that determines how human beings act internally and externally.  Theistic or not, universal or not doesn't matter.  Some people seem to limit "religion" to encompass only the widely accepted Abrahamic faiths and possibly some far Eastern ones.  I'm not sure why the line was drawn here.  Where does "religion" end and "non-religion" begin?

 

You could make the case that nearly every "-ism" on Earth is a religion by this definition, especially when used as a stated or implied guiding principle of a society's legislation and identity.  Capitalism, communism, nationalism, ethnocentrism, secularism, exceptionalism, fascism, humanism, etc.  All were used to guide societies in the same way that so-called "religions" have done.  Some claimed comprehensive and absolute control of society, while many in reality were very limited to certain groups of people at certain times, and only in certain dimensions of their personal and social lives.  Many of these "-isms" tried to include a form of spirituality or even metaphysics in their propagation and implementation, which is a natural consequence when trying to supplant "religion" (but merely replacing one for another).

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Hello.

Do you know any Twelver Shia thinkers (Ayatollahs, Grand Ayatollahs etc.) who postulated western-like separation of religion and state i.e. supported democracy and postulated that obeying sharia becomes a personal choice?

Amazing nic , thanks for remembering the great general

I think it was born out of necessity when 12ers were driven underground by political repression

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