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Mohammadi_follower

Paul Of Tarsus In Islamic Text ?

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W Salam

there's a mention of بولس  in Shia narrations, and the person is said to have "Christianized" the Christians; like the way Judah Judaized the Jew. 

they are the individuals who, in the absence of divine Prophets (as),  changed the direction of the divine religion.


there's also a mention of a person with similar name, but this one is good.

Edited by mesbah

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Paul is mentioned in a longer tradition about the seven people in the pit of hell.

أما الخمسة فقابيل الذي قتل هابيل ونمرود الذي حاج إبراهيم في ربه قال أنا احيي واميت وفرعون الذي قال أنا ربكم الاعلى ويهودا الذي هود اليهود وبولس الذي نصر النصارى ومن هذه الامة إعرابيان.

From Imam al-Baqir [a], "As for the five, they are (1) Kane, who killed Abel, (2) Nimrod, who challenged Abraham regarding his Lord, saying 'I give life and I give death', (3) Pharaoh, who said 'I am your Highest Lord', (4) a Jew who Judaized the Jews, (5) Paul, who Christianized the Christians, (6-7) And from this Nation, two bedouins (Abu Bakr and `Umar)."

Is this authentic?

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Paul is mentioned in a longer tradition about the seven people in the pit of hell.

 

أما الخمسة فقابيل الذي قتل هابيل ونمرود الذي حاج إبراهيم في ربه قال أنا احيي واميت وفرعون الذي قال أنا ربكم الاعلى ويهودا الذي هود اليهود وبولس الذي نصر النصارى ومن هذه الامة إعرابيان.

 

From Imam al-Baqir [a], "As for the five, they are (1) Kane, who killed Abel, (2) Nimrod, who challenged Abraham regarding his Lord, saying 'I give life and I give death', (3) Pharaoh, who said 'I am your Highest Lord', (4) a Jew who Judaized the Jews, (5) Paul, who Christianized the Christians, (6-7) And from this Nation, two bedouins (Abu Bakr and `Umar)."

Beautiful ..

Edited by Skanderbeg

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Hi Alidu78,

Quote from Post 1:

Paul of Tarsus could be considered as the true fondator of christianity.

I have to ask what you mean by this statement? --- How could Paul be the founder of something that was founded and active before he came on the scene?

After Paul was miraculously converted by an appearance of Jesus in Acts 9, --- he wanted to go back to Jerusalem and tell all the Scribes and Pharisee that Jesus Christ was truly the Messiah, but they wanted to Kill him. --- And Jesus appeared to Paul again in Acts 22:

17 “Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance

18 and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.’

19 So I said, ‘Lord, they know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believe on You.

20 And when the blood of Your martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by consenting to his death, and guarding the clothes of those who were killing him.’

21 Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’”

Saul of Tarsus, as a Pharisee was trying to destroy the Christian movement in Jerusalem so he was arresting Christians to get them off the street, --- he had them beaten and put in jail, but the Jews did not have authority to kill anyone as they were under Roman jurisdiction.

Saul, himself would be careful not to kill anyone as he had aspirations of one day perhaps being a high priest, so would not want this on his record, --- but when Stephen was stoned by the mob, --- he didn’t throw stones, but he guarded their coats, Acts 7:

58 And they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

--- After he was converted he was no longer welcome among the Jews, and became persecuted by them, --- So Jesus said, “I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.” --- From that time on he preached the Gospel to the Gentiles.

--- So what do you think he changed, from what Jesus had taught the disciples?

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There was a church in Jerusalem for and from the Jews who practiced Judaism. Paul who never knew Jesus nor his apostles but met him years after his death started his version of the teachings of christ and preached it among heathen. He hijacked the whole thing and put it in a Pauline jacket. 

Ever wondered why the majority of books in the NT are ascribed to Paul and his pupils and why the Acts of the Apostles is almost all about the apostle Paul?

Edited by Skanderbeg

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Hi Alidu78,

Quote from Post 7:

He is the foundator of christianity because his ideology on the act of apostles is different from the religion preachong by jésus on gospel

Response: --- Jesus preached the Message of the Gospel, which means ‘Good News,’ --- and the good news was, --- God’s plan of salvation through Faith.

What did Paul preach that was so different? --- (Ideology is too vague) --- What particular Scriptures are you referring to?

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I know some Christians believe that Paul was an impostor and false apostle. The reason why they say this is because they believe Paul taught an antinomian doctrine where faith in Jesus Christ alone was enough for salvation, while Jesus and his disciples taught that moral renewal, law-keeping, and faithful obedience to God were necessary for one to have a place in the Kingdom. I disagree with this interpretation but I'm just sharing what some Christians believe about Paul.

Edited by ChristianVisitor

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Hi ChristianVisitor,

Quote from Post 11:

They believe Paul taught an antinomian doctrine where faith in Jesus Christ alone was enough for salvation,

Response: --- Yes this is commonly taught, and it is true that Faith has to come first, but the portion of Scripture that is used is often only part of the context. --- It is these verses in Ephesians 2:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast

--- So there you have it, --- and many ministers use those verses, to make the point that we are saved by Faith. --- But two things to notice is that verse 8 starts with ‘For’ and the verse after verse 9 starts with ‘For.’ --- When a verse starts with ‘for’ or ‘therefore,’ it is dependant on the verse before it. --- So we have to look at the whole context from verses 1-10 to understand the whole meaning:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

--- When we read it all we see much more in it, do we not?

1 Where did we come from? We were (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins. --- And He (God) has made us alive (spiritually).

2-3 describe the course of the world that we came out of.

4 But God, in love and mercy accepted us when we turned to Him

5-6 When we were dead in trespasses, God made us ‘alive’ by lifting us out of the world and made us to sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. --- (By grace we have been saved.)

7 That in the ages to come (through the rest of our lives on earth, and in our eternity in heaven), we might know the riches of His GRACE.

--- Now verse 8, which is dependent on verse 7:

8 For by (God’s) grace, you have been saved through (your) FAITH, --- and that not of yourself (as though you had done something to earn the gift of salvation, --- then it would not be a gift, would it?)

9 Not of (good) works that we have done (that we might boast about.)

--- Now we go to verse 10 which starts with ‘for’ so it is dependent on 8-9.

10 FOR we are His (God’s) workmanship, (His workers), --- (re)-created in Christ Jesus (caused to be ‘born again’ or made alive in Christ Jesus) for (the purpose of doing) ‘good works,’ which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

--- So by Grace we are saved through our Faith, --- but we are saved to do “God’s good works.”

You see, --- This is Faith first, which produces good works. --- So, ‘God’s salvation comes with a work schedule.’

James teaches that “Faith without works, is dead.” --- But true Faith inspires the ‘good works’ that God gives us to do.

--- God has a plan for each of our lives, so it is our decision to become a BELIEVER, and ‘shoulder the load’ He has given us to carry, --- or sit down defeated at the side of the road. --- Then Faith, without works is dormant or unproductive.

And ‘Good works,’ however many they may be, --- without Faith, --- are just ‘good works.’

Thanks for your comments, since people should know what Paul really taught.

Placid

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Hi Skanderbeg

Quote from Post 9:

There was a church in Jerusalem for and from the Jews who practiced Judaism. Paul who never knew Jesus nor his apostles but met him years after his death started his version of the teachings of christ and preached it among heathen. He hijacked the whole thing and put it in a Pauline jacket.

Ever wondered why the majority of books in the NT are ascribed to Paul and his pupils and why the Acts of the Apostles is almost all about the apostle Paul?

Response: --- It is interesting where you got your information about a Church in Jerusalem. --- The Jews had their Synagogues, and the Temple, --- and the Church referred to the body of Christian believers.

It was after Jesus had risen and ascended to heaven that the disciples were waiting for the promise of God to send the Holy Spirit upon them, which happened on the day of Pentecost, --- when Peter preached to the crowds that were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost. --- The people had come from many countries, as it says in Acts 2:5-12, and after they heard the full message of salvation, it says:

2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

--- It said THEY BELIEVED, and WERE BAPTIZED, --- so all of the apostles would be involved in baptizing them, and it says,

“And that day about THREE THOUSANS SOULS were added to them.” --- That was the beginning of the first Church in Jerusalem.

And the first Church was not a building, but they were the people who shared their homes, --- So the first ‘body of believers’ was built on the following four principles and practices:

42 And they continued steadfastly in THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE (The Gospel message of Salvation) --- and FELLOWSHIP (visiting together in harmony), --- in THE BREAKING OF BREAD (Communion and dedication to the Lord) --- and IN PRAYERS (the lifeline to heaven).

46 So they continuing daily with one accord in the Temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart,

47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord ADDED TO THE CHURCH daily those who were BEING SAVED.

And 2 days later after another meeting, it said in Acts 4:

4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

--- So this was a fast growing Church of Jewish believers, but not of Judaism, but it was the first Christian Church.

I will come back later to tell how well ‘Saul of Tarsus’ knew Jesus.

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Hi Skanderbeg

Quote from Post 9:
Paul who never knew Jesus nor his apostles but met him years after his death started his version of the teachings of christ and preached it among heathen. He hijacked the whole thing and put it in a Pauline jacket.
Ever wondered why the majority of books in the NT are ascribed to Paul and his pupils and why the Acts of the Apostles is almost all about the apostle Paul?

Response: --- First of all, how well was Jesus known? --- It says in Matthew 4:
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Because of His fame, the Pharisees felt threatened and after the resurrection of Lazarus, this was their reaction in John 11:
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.
46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did.
47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.
48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”
53 Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death.

--- Saul of Tarsus was a young Pharisee, and as near as is known was in Jerusalem learning the priesthood with perhaps the ambition of becoming a high priest one day.

As a diligent Pharisee he might have been with the mob that went to arrest Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane. He may have followed the trials of Jesus. --- He may have been at the crucifixion, when the Pharisees felt they had accomplished their purpose.

However, like the raising of Lazarus, after three days Jesus rose again.
Then on the Day of Pentecost when some 3000 Jews became believers in Jesus, --- After that Saul began to get letters of authority to put some of them in jail, hoping to discourage them.

Saul saw Jesus in a vision on the road to Damascus in Acts 9 and was blinded, and was led by the hand into Damascus, where he was healed. --- AND HE WAS CONVERTED, AND BEGAN TO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS THE MESSIAH THAT THE JEWS WAITED FOR.

He took the Roman name Paul and became Paul the Apostle, --- after some time he went to Jerusalem to stay with the disciples, but the Pharisees wanted to kill him now, so he had to leave. --- In his testimony he said this in Acts 22:
17 “Now it happened, when I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, that I was in a trance

18 and saw Him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.
21 Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’”

From then on Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles, and preached the Gospel and the teaching of Jesus.
--- He did not teach OT laws, because they never did apply to the Gentiles, and they were fulfilled in Jesus. Paul knew the Apostles and mentioned staying with Peter in Galatians 1:
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.

In Acts 15, there was a Church meeting and Paul and Barnabas came from Antioch in Syria. --- James, the Lord’s brother was officiating at the meeting and Peter spoke on their behalf, in Acts 15:
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe. (Acts 10)
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas,
--- (Notice this, that Paul knew all of the Apostles and disciples at Jerusalem as well as the Gentile Christians at Antioch, in Syria.)

So James wrote a letter of instructions for Gentile Christians:
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

So Paul and Barnabas made missionary trips among the Gentiles which are recorded in the Acts of the Apostles, --- Also, Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke joined Paul on Missionary trips, and it was Luke who wrote the Book of Acts. --- Not surprising it follows Paul. --- The letters of Paul are teaching the Churches how to live according to the Gospel, and they are like 'circuit letters,' that were sent from one Church to another, as they all had common problems. --- And we still use them today.

Placid

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Hi Skanderbeg

Quote from Post 9:

He hijacked the whole thing and put it in a Pauline jacket.

Response: --- If you took time to read some of the letters Paul wrote to the Churches, you would find his teaching is in harmony with what Jesus taught to the Jews, as well as what Peter and James taught. --- So there was no disharmony in the Scriptures.

Peter and Mark had been ministering in Rome for years, and later Paul and Luke joined them and they worked together, Peter said in 2 Peter 3:

14 “Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;

15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.”

The Theme that Jesus emphasized is that we should love God and love our neighbor, and this fulfills the Law. --- Jesus said in John 13:

34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

The Scribes and Pharisees were always trying to find fault with Jesus so they could accuse Him of breaking the Jewish laws, and this happened in Matthew 22:

34 “But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together.

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying,

36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

If we consider the ‘Ten Commandments’ as the ‘moral code’ for all generations, does this New Commandment fulfill them?

The Ten Commandments are written in Exodus 20, and to check them, the first four are vertical, dealing with God.

--- If you love God, you will have no other gods before Him, --- You will not make graven images, or have idols to represent a god, or intermediary. --- If you love God, you will not take His name in vain, --- and you will keep His day that is set aside for rest and worship.

The last six Commandments are ‘horizontal,’ dealing with family and neighbors.

--- If you love your parents you will respect them and be obedient to them. --- If you love your neighbors you will not kill them, --- commit adultery with them, or against them, --- you will not steal from them, --- you will not lie to them, or about them, --- and you will not covet, or be envious of what they have. --- So, Love does fulfill the Law.

Let’s see what Paul taught in the Churches, as found in Romans 13:

8 “Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

10 “Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

Do you know of Scripture verses where Paul taught differently than the other Apostles?

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I know some Christians believe that Paul was an impostor and false apostle. The reason why they say this is because they believe Paul taught an antinomian doctrine where faith in Jesus Christ alone was enough for salvation, while Jesus and his disciples taught that moral renewal, law-keeping, and faithful obedience to God were necessary for one to have a place in the Kingdom. I disagree with this interpretation but I'm just sharing what some Christians believe about Paul.

Christians believe that the Bible is the inerrant inspired word of God.

So to say some Christians think otherwise of Paul frankly means they are not Christians.

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This is Paul's interpretation of love. NKJV

 

 

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whetherthere are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Edited by Son of Placid

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