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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Belief In Intercession,compulsory Or Not?

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About Ismal Atham, here is an awesome Du'a:


In the name of Allah the All Merciful the All Compassionate

O Allah I beseech You by that name which is preserved in the hidden treasurers, 

which is the greatest and the most important, Proof, Truth, Protector, Pure, which is light and is from light

It's light is with the light, and that light is above all lights, light filled with lights, brightness in brightness. 

That light by which all the darkness was illuminated/shined, which destroyed all the compellers which could not be controlled  by the Heavens or the Earth. 

O He through whom the fear of a fearful can be averted, the magic of the magician be cast away, 

the conspiracy of consipiror can be void, the jealousy of every jealous be finished, the rebellion of every rebel is stopped, 

in Presence of His Greatness the mountain the dryness, the wetness split open 

and if spoken then the Angels protect and if written on a ship and left then the stormy waves cannot reach it, 

with it every transgressor and enemy and disobedient devil is controlled and it is Your Majestic and Greatest name which You have used for Yourself, 

by which You are on the Holy Throne and on Your Exalted chair. 

O Allah who is Greater and the Greatest, 

O Allah the most honored light o originator of the Heavens and the Earth. 

O Lord of Majesty and Generosity I beseech You by Your Honour and Your Majesty and Your Power and Your Abundance and by the sancity of Mohammad and his pure family

I supplicate to You by You and by Mohammad and his family that send blessings on Mohammad and his family and free me, 

and my parents and the believing men and the believing women from the fire of Hell 

and send blessings on Mohammad and his progeny. 

Surely You are the Praised the Glorious.



Anyone here who seeks reflection can understand who Ismal Atham is and who is the named. Ismal Atham is from light, Allah is not from light, he is the source of light and is not from anything. Ismal atham is light with light, and light above all other lights (ie. the top light), and is filled with lights. Allah is not filled with lights but is SAMAD (Hollow/sheer existence), and Ahad (one/single/simple). As we can see, the Ismal Atham is blessed with all the lights (in the universe). 


Then we ask God's power, jalal, etc, and by the sanctity of Mohammad and his family, and ask God by God, and by Mohammad and his family.


We can see Ismallah is not the same as the Named. there is difference between the name and the named.


Although this has nothing to do with the subject of Tawasul,  


Indeed the way to seek refuge in God has been emphasized to be through his NAME. His Name is created, and extends to everything all light, but at the end, the greatest name is Mohammad and the family of Mohammad.


This doesn't mean they are the named, it means they are what points to the NAMED in the most greatest way. They Glorify Allah as he ought to be glorified, and their glorification is the secret and purpose of the heavens and the earth, we been created to glorify God with their glorification of God.

I am not sure if someone pointed to this before, but regarding ahlulbayt being names of Allah. I understood it that they are not the 99 names that we know..

Allah has more than 99 names but we know only these. In the day of judgement, prophet will open that day by praising Allah by names that we have never heard before.


I think the hadith is saying that Ahlulbayt are names (signs) of Allah. They are described elsewhere as kalimat (words of Allah). So they are marks, signs, distinguished landmark etc.

The moment we remember them, we remember prayer, alms, hajj, and other worships to Allah


Remember that Almutakabir is a description that should be taken positively only in the case of Allah

الكبرياء رداء الله

Kibreya is the cloak of Allah,no one should try to embrace it. < or something along these lines.

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You are 7imar

Only 7imar cannot understand words and turn them to meanings.

Imam Mahdi is guided by Allah to guide the misguided people

He - imam Mahdi- is created cause of hidayiah

The word in a Arabic and I suppose in every -human- language to describe those who guide is a guide.

But you are 7imar.

Imam Mahdi is the Hadi of this ummah by the order of Allah .

Anyways. 7mar.

You are on my ignore list for ever.

Are you saying that light coming from the lamp is Allah himself?



typical reaction by people who are cornered by the truth (sadly and unfortunately for many people it is so .. ). They can just use the weapon of the wicked, namely foul language. What will calling me a donkey achieve? And she did not even address the fact i proved to her concerning Allah's Names .. and their uniqueness. 5/11 sentences are insults :P


then it's no surprise that there was no substance to the post, or an actual refutation. Anger does blind a person, and hatred too. Akhlaq is half of intelligence?? wasn't that a hadith?? or something like that :)

just to add to the situation she runs away :P throws insults, even asks a question, and tells me i'm on an ignore list. Well she can ignore me, but nobody can run away from Allah :P i think that post is oppression against me personally, and we know what Allah does to oppressors.

.. or maybe Allah will forgive her, i don't know .. but i don't know if i will .. i mean, this is just blatant straight forward insulting and shamelessly trying to publicly humiliate and provoke and hurt somebody. we all hurt people, but intentionally like this? i don't know. unless she apologizes, i will do the opposite of ignore her in my duas in sha Allah. i'd rather be on an ignore list, then on a dua list .. a negative dua list. i think that is fair and my right. 

i have a person standing next to me who is non religious and not part of the forum .. said that if somebody comes here and find people talking like this, they will be repulsed by this forum, and that these things show why most see muslims as uncivilized and barbaric. Why talk this way when coming here to supposedly talk about religion?


I assume there maybe a misunderstanding between two words:

وسيلة = intermediary , device, tool, means

شفاعة = intercession

We are asked and may seek intermediary , which could be a living Imam of the time.

Allah says in the Quran as to seek an intermediary وسيله:

Surah maidah verse 35:

Surat Al-Ma'idah [verse 35] - O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means ( وسيلة )


This means or tool can be prayer, doing good etc , also we can seek the means which can be the living imam of the time .

Seeking the means thru a deceased Imam may not be of help when we have a living Imam .

The reason being is : Each Imam is given the authority during his time of leadership, and therefore the command and authority given by Allah is no more in the hands of previous Imams ( leaders) although they are living in the other realm but no more carry the responsibility or Amr any more.

That is why we use the terms:

-Imam Zaman امام زمان: leader of time

-Wali Asr ولى عصر :the master of time

-Saheb zaman صاحب زمان : owner of time

- Wali amrولى امر: master of commands

- Saheb Amr صاحب امر : owner of commands

All which Allah , himself has given these powers and Authorization to the Imams and other beings .


Like , Dhul qarnin in the Quran , where Allah had given full authority and choice to punish or forgive the sinners. And Dhul Qarnin chose to forgive.


Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority), either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."


Hence each Imam , was the Imam of their time, and the command was given to them to implement.

During the time of Imam Ali , after the demise of the prophet he was the Imam zaman , vali amr , saheb zaman if his time. So when the authority was with him , it was within his hands, not Imam Hassan or Hussain.

After Imam Ali's death, the authority of time and commands was in Imam Hassan's hands than Hussein so on so forth till the twelfth ,the end of time ,which is now , with Imam Mahdi .

Now the authority is no longer in the hands of previous Imams . It is now in the hands of Imam Madhi ( with the only exception of Imam Ali ,at times when required, as he is the Amir of mominin)

So we can use Imams as wasilah as our امر Amr ( commands )and زمان Zaman (time) is in their hands thru Allah's authority given to them under Allah's will.

So what ever Amr comes down in laylatul qadr is now given to the Saheb Amr, who is Imam Mahdi currently.


As for the term love again I assume a misunderstanding here :

حب : love

مودة :affection ( from the root ودد)

We are supposed to have ودد for Ahlul bayt :

Quran uses the word مودة for relatives not حب:

ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا -الْمَوَدَّةَ- فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَمَن يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَّزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ

That is the good news God gives to His servants who believe and do good deeds. Say, 'I ask of you no wage for it, except AFFECTION among the near of kin.' Whoever does a good deed, We will increase its goodness for him. God is Forgiving and Appreciative.


Regarding the light of Allah , it is best to read Al kafi chapter hodooseh Asma.

In it , it is explained , that Allah's names including the name Allah is created by Allah, himself .

And the all other names come under the name of Allah.


beautiful, thanks. I'm glad when people use this approach or linking all their arguments to verses and simple Arabic .. thanks! i agree with all of it myself, except maybe the part where we should ask the Imam of our time for help. i would agree if we have physical access to him. But making dua to him is not something that is in the quran or the sunnah of ahlulbayt. as in spiritual supplication. (better keep those for Allah) (like the "secret" duas when in need at sea in 6:63)


but what you wrote is amazing and shows high level of intelligence to me .. mash Allah


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Ahlulbayt gather in the names of Allah in creation by which they glorify God. The true name they glorify God with (ismal atham) is their core essence, but it doesn't mean the named is other then Allah.


The names are glorification of Allah, and not Allah. The names are not equal to Allah, but are various levels of manifestation.   The names of Allah come down with a limited understanding, while the meaning they point to, is Allah, (although we never comprehend Allah fully with them).


When we think of the name of Allah, we think of all glory/beauty/praise we know of that he deserve, say Allah surely possesses that, and at the same time acknowledge he is far above what we think and we say God is Greater. 


We think surely God is hearing or otherwise, he would not be worthy of Worship. We say surely Allah is good etc... But the knowledge of Ahlulbayt of Allah is more intimate, and the truth they know of the names of Allah in creation, is far more closer to Allah then any creation.


In fact, when Allah says "astawa alal Arshi" he means through the greatest name, otherwise Allah essence is not located in a place or time.


I think people are having a hard time distinguishing between the name and the named. We worship the named (who is far above what we think, all attributes go astray regarding him, and imaginations violate his greatness), not the names. 



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Brother Ali_Hussain made a brilliant post about the 99 names hadith, but I cannot find it. It was in another thread.Here are some opinions on the 99 names hadith: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235029405-did-rasulallah-say-ya-ali-madad/page-15

You are 7imar

Only 7imar cannot understand words and turn them to meanings.

But you are 7imar.

Anyways. 7mar.



I find it funny how you get angry if we insult the enemies of Allah but you use the worse language towards another mu'min. That was disgusting. Brother peace_seeker, please don't get upset.

Edited by The Batman

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It's funny how people rather then acknowledge hadiths of Ahlulbayt don't use other hadiths to understand them. They like to pick some hadiths with their own understanding to reject other hadiths that give the proper understanding of the other hadiths.


This is no different then people who reject Ahlulbayt in Quran by ignoring the tafsir of Quran bel Quran and imposing their own opinions.


This is following howa, to reject truth that they dislike.

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Al- kafi :

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Hisham ibn al- Hakam who asked Imam abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) about the names of Allah and about the root or derivative forms of those names.

"What is the root word for Allah?" The Imam replied, "The word Allah is derived from the word Elah (Lord) which requires Ma’luh (some one whose Lord one has become). Note that names are something other than whatever to which they apply.

O Hissham, whoever, worships the name without the fact for which the name stands he has denied the existence of Allah and has not worshipped any thing. Whoever worships the name and the meaning for which the name stands he has worshipped two things. Whoever worships the meaning without the name he is a monotheist. Did you understand it )

O Hisham?" Hisham then asked, "Please explain further." The Imam then said, "Allah has ninety nine names. If names would have been the samething for which they stand every one of them would have been a Lord. However, Allah is a meaning for which these names stand and they all are something other than Him.

O Hisham, bread is the name for a certain kind of food, water is the name for a certain kind of drink, cloth is the name for a certain kind of garment and fire is the name for a thing that burns.

Did you understand, O Hisham, in a form of understanding that would help you to defend our cause against our enemies and those who worship things that are other than Allah?"

I said, "Yes, I did receive such understanding." The Imam then said, "May Allah grant you success in it and keep you steadfast (in your belief).

Hisham has said, "I swear by Allah that since then no one has been able to defeat me in an argumentation on the issue of the Oneness of Allah and that has made me reach this position that I hold."


H 229, Ch. 5, h 3

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from ‘Abbass al-Ma‘ruf from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn abu Najran who has the following. I wrote or said to Imam abu Ja‘far 'Abdallah (a.s.),

"May Allah take my soul in your service. Do we worship the Beneficent, the Merciful, the One who is One only and Self-sufficient?" The Imam then said,

"Whoever worships the names without the meaning for which they stand he has become a polytheist and has denied the existence of Allah and has worshipped nothing.

You must worship Allah who is the One and only One, the Self-sufficient, Who is the meaning for these names but not these names. The names are attributes that He has said are of His attributes."

Edited by tendersoul

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وَلِلَّهِ الْأَسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَىٰ فَادْعُوهُ بِهَا ۖ وَذَرُوا الَّذِينَ يُلْحِدُونَ فِي أَسْمَائِهِ ۚ سَيُجْزَوْنَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ{180}

[7:180] And to Allah belongs the beautiful names, therefore call on Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate His names; they shall be recompensed for what they did.

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ {181}

[7:181] And of those whom We have created are a people who guide with the truth and thereby they do justice.

وَالَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا سَنَسْتَدْرِجُهُمْ مِنْ حَيْثُ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {182}

[7:182] And (as to) those who reject Our Ayat, We draw them near (to destruction) by degrees from whence they know not.




There is link between God's beautiful names, the people who guide by the truth (Imams), violating his names and denying his Ayat.


They are so intertwined.


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anyway regardless of the Names of Allah being created, they are His Names, and not any creature's name. .. as has been suggested in this thread. And when Allah tells us to call upon Him with His names, then He does not mean that those names are people.

Allah is different from the labels or names we put.


did you write the quran? how can you say "we"? Those are Names that Allah made for Himself .. you didn't make those names. 


And even if Allah is different from His Names, it does not change the fact that those names are for Him .. and Him alone .. not for some people, as you guys seem to think. or both Allah and shared with people .. whatever it is you believe away from those Names being only for God ..





nobody here is saying we should worship the Name. i don't know why everybody keeps saying that. All we are saying is that all Names of Allah are for Allah and Allah alone. 


.. something some people here deny and most have a problem admitting 

And to Allah belong the best names 7:180

Allah says that we should call upon Him by these Names of His .. and calling upon him is an act of worship. So those Names are to be used for worship .. and if we treat those names as people, then we worship people


 so invoke Him by them 7:180

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The reason why we keep reminding there is a distinction between the name and the named, is that you use the equivocation of that, to say Ahlulbayt are not the names of Allah. No one is saying Mohammad Worships himself. Yet Mohammad is that very essence of Worship of Allah in the most perfect manner, and this light of his worship of Allah is in lesser degrees in the universe, but that doesn't mean, he worships himself. 


But the names and the named as so intertwined, the light of Mohammad and Allah is intertwined. 

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the light of Allah and mohamed can not be compared, and the Names of Allah are for Allah alone. 


nobody has the right to say that the Names of Allah are humans. 


you saying the light of mohamed and Allah are intertwined is like comparing them. You can not compare them or associate them .. 


and you better admit that Allah's Names are for Allah alone, and that ahlulbayt are not Allah .. Also that Allah is the light of the heavens and earth .. and not ahlulbayt as you claimed before.

or keep on contradicting Quran and sharing Allah's names with His creatures. And i would also change your religion from "love of Ali", to "love of Allah", because the quran tells us that believers are more in love with Allah than any other.


But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . 2:165

but then again, for you Allah is ahlulbayt isn't it? That name is Ahlulbayt .. talking to people who do not distinguish between Allah's Names and names of humans is almost impossible. 

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Regarding the point that other Imams can no longer help, because Imam Mahdi is the Leader of our time,  we read he (Imam Mahdi) himself taught us to say


"Jibrael on my right, Michael on my left, Mohammad in front of me and Ameer Al-Momineen from behind me" in a Du'a.


It's true the over all station of guidance is to be done by Imam Mahdi, and he is the one to take us to our station, as we pray in Du'a marifa, for Allah to guide us by his hands upon the straight path, but this doesn't negate the ability of other Ahlulbayt to help spiritually and prepare us spiritually to be upon the guidance of Imam Mahdi.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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The Noor of Allah according to the Ma'sumeenع is the guidance of Allahسبحانه وتعالى and not a form of light entity emitted by Allah Himself. That is, in Surat al-Nur, when Allah says that He is the Noor of the earth and the Heavens, it's means that His Guidance is manifested in both of these worlds.

1 - حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه، قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله، عن يعقوب بن يزيد، عن العباس بن هلال، قال: سألت الرضا عليه السلام عن قول الله عز وجل:

(الله نور السماوات والأرض) فقال: هاد لأهل السماء وهاد لأهل الأرض. وفي رواية البرقي: هدى من في السماوات وهدى من في الأرض

Narrated to us my father: Narrated to us Sa'ad b. 'Abdullah, from Ya'qub b. Yaris, from al-'Abbas from Hilal: I asked al-Redha ع on the saying of Allahعز وجل: (Allah is the Light of the Heavens and the earth), he said: He is the ultimate guide to the dwellers of the Heavens and the dwellers of the earth. And in a narration from al-Barqiر: Guiding to those in the Heavens and those on the earth. [Kitab at-Tawheed].

More relevant Ahadith from the same book that one should consider reading: http://www.aqaed.com/book/135/twhid1-10.html#twh22

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And we have hadiths that explain what is meant by Allah being the guide as well (as it's obvious what is meant by it is his light):

وَعَنِ البَاقِرِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ… أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ: أنَا هَادِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ؛ مَثَلُ العِلْمِ الَّذِي أُعْطِيتُهُ وَهُوُ نُورِي الَّذِي يُهْتَدَى بِهِ مَثَلُ المِشْكَاةِ فِيهَا المِصْبَاحُ. فَالمِشْكَاةُ قَلْبُ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ، وَالمِصْبَاحُ نُورُهُ الَّذِي فِيهِ العِلْمُ.

It is narrated from Imam al-Baqir Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã that he said, “I am the guide of the heavens and the earth. The likeness of the knowledge that I have been given-which is the light wherewith they are guided-is as a niche, wherein is a lamp. ‘The niche’ is the heart of Muhammad (S) and ‘the lamp’ is the knowledge: that is, its light that is in it.


And we read in Saheefa Sajadiya, the Imam is the radiance of the worlds. And we in a read in Du'a, the greatest name of Allah is created from light, and it's light with the light, and it's light above all lights, and it's light that gathers all light. The name of Allah and face of Allah is what gives light to all things and according to Saheefa Sajadiya, the guided are only guided by the light of God's face.


Now is knowledge a living reality in beings or is it a dead existence?


In fact, Allah being the Guide, is only possible via his Names And Signs being connected to him. If they were disconnected, Allah would not be the reality of the guidance and nature of knowledge would be disconnected from him.


Allah knows who denies his Ayat because they are allergic to connection of Allah with his creation and who does so out of ignorance. Indeed Allah doesn't guide those who disconnect the Ayat of Allah from him, for it's nothing but disbelief and hatred of the light of the light, the one who treasures of the universe belong to.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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From the page you linked to:


2 - وقد روي عن الصادق عليه السلام أنه سئل عن قول الله عز وجل: (الله نور السماوات والأرض مثل نوره كمشكاة فيها مصباح) فقال: هو مثل ضربه الله لنا، فالنبي صلى الله عليه وآله والأئمة صلوات الله عليهم أجمعين من دلالات الله وآياته التي يهتدى بها إلى التوحيد ومصالح الدين وشرائع الإسلام والفرائض والسنن، ولا قوة إلا بالله العلي العظيم.

It is a parable that God has struck regarding us, so the Nabi (pbuh) and the Imams (pbut) are from the directors to Allah and his Ayat (signs) by which people are guided towards Tawheed, and lanterns of the religion and the ordinances/laws of Islam and obligations and the ways, and there is no power except by Allah the Exalted, the Great.
More hadiths confirming they are the light of knowledge and source of it in the hearts of humanity:

قال: محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، قلت (كمشكاة)؟ قال: صدر محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، قال: قلت: (فيها مصباح)؟ قال: فيه نور العلم يعني النبوة، قلت: (المصباح في زجاجة)؟ قال:

علم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله صدر إلى قلب علي عليه السلام، قلت: (كأنها)؟ قال: لأي شئ

الصفحة 158 تقرأ كأنها، فقلت: فكيف جعلت فداك؟ قال: كأنها كوكب دري(1) قلت:


(يوقد من شجرة زيتونة مباركة لا شرقية ولا غربية)؟ قال: ذلك أمير المؤمنين علي ابن أبي طالب عليه السلام لا يهودي ولا نصراني، قلت: (يكاد زيتها يضئ ولو لم تمسسه نار)؟ قال: يكاد العلم يخرج من فم العالم من آل محمد من قبل أن ينطق به(2)، قلت: (نور على نور)؟ قال: الإمام في إثر الإمام عليه السلام



Notice he said "for anything" regarding being "a brightly star". And notice he said the TREE is Imam Ali. That means the Imam is Imam Ali. We have other hadiths that say it's Ibrahim, because Ibrahim has been emphasized as Imam. This refers to the light of Imammate and Wilayah. It specifically shows knowledge comes from the family of Mohammad. 


And the following hadith:


4 - حدثنا إبراهيم بن هارون الهيتي، قال: حدثنا محمد بن أحمد بن أبي - الثلج، قال: حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن الحسين الزهري، قال: حدثنا أحمد بن صبيح قال: حدثنا ظريف بن ناصح، عن عيسى بن راشد، عن محمد بن علي بن الحسين عليهم السلام في قوله عز وجل: (كمشكاة فيها مصباح)، قال: المشكاة نور العلم في صدر النبي صلى الله عليه وآله (المصباح في زجاجة) الزجاجة صدر علي عليه السلام، صار علم النبي صلى الله عليه وآله إلى صدر علي عليه السلام (الزجاجة كأنها كوكب دري يوقد من شجرة مباركة) قال: نور، (لا شرقية ولا غربية) قال: لا يهودية ولا نصرانية (يكاد زيتها يضئ ولو لم تمسسه نار) قال: يكاد العالم من آل محمد عليهم السلام يتكلم بالعلم قبل أن يسأل، (نور على نور) يعني: إماما مؤيدا بنور العلم والحكمة في إثر إمام من آل محمد عليهم السلام، وذلك من لدن آدم إلى أن تقوم الساعة.


We see the the blessed tree is light. And we see the Imam is light.





Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Sahih International: And is one who was dead and We gave him life and made for him light by which to walk among the people like one who is in darkness, never to emerge therefrom? Thus it has been made pleasing to the disbelievers that which they were doing.


وفي الكافي عن الباقر عليه السلام ميتاً لا يعرف شيئاً ونوراً يمشي به في الناس اماماً يؤتم به كمن مَثَلَهُ في الظلمات الذي لا يعرف الإِمام والعياشي مثله.


From Al-Kafi from Al-Baqir [as] "dead" is who knows nothing, and light by which he walks among the people "An Imam who is followed" is like who is in the darkness "the one who doesn't know the Imam" (And al-ayashi (has a tradition) like it).




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Why do you need to be shia? you need to be a muslim and be on the right path, there is the shia school of thought and sunni .as well as extreme views on either side as well as all the grey inbetween. Just seek knowledge and truth. there are very distinct rules to be muslim, but any muslim can say im shia or sunni.

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