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iubelum

Belief In Intercession,compulsory Or Not?

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and if you want to discuss the word "equal" further, then get me the Arabic term for this, and in relation to the topic and your claim that people are the light of the universe, and not God .. even though the quran says so

You looking at something exclusive. First of all, if Allah is the light of the universe, it means he is the light of the light of Mohammad. It's simple logic. Therefore Mohammad can be that very light in the universe, as well, as Ahlulbayt if they share the same blessings as him. The mathali noorihi is obviously not about Allah. Allah doesn't come from a blessed tree, nor is Allah ascending to be light upon light, nor is he in anything like a glass as he hollow (Samad) and sheer existence, high above all existence.

 

Creation is totally free from Allah and Allah is free from creation. The light of the universe has no similarity to Allah. But Allah is still the light of it, because praise is so linked to him, that Allah says "You did not throw when you threw but Allah threw".

 

At any rate, you dismiss the hadiths of Ahlulbayt and twist them out of the place they meant it.  Yet these hadiths are just a means for understand the nature of the design of the universe so that we can ascend inshallah and look into the malakut of the heavens and the earth.

 

The uncleanness is from dark forces, the light is from unseen forces that belong to Allah, the Imam is meant to be the companion of the journey. We don't know how he guides at all times, but he does, to mutaqeen. 

 

We pray that Allah makes us follow him while his appearance is clear, manifest, and beyond doubt.

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Some more hadiths:

 

 

عَنِ الفُضَيْلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ قَالَ: قُلْتُ لأبِي عَبْدِاللهِ الصَّادِقِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ: ﴿اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ.﴾ قَالَ: كَذَلِكَ اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ. قَالَ: قُلْتُ: ﴿مَثَلُ نُورِهَ﴾ قَالَ: مُحَمَّدٌ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ. قُلْتُ: ﴿كَمِشْكَاةٍ﴾ قَالَ: صَدْرُ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ. قَالَ: قُلْتُ: ﴿فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ﴾ قَالَ: فِيهِ نُورُ العِلْمِ - يَعْنِي النُّبُوَّةَ. قُلْتُ: ﴿المِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ﴾ قَالَ: عِلْمُ رَسُولِ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ صَدَرَ إلَى قَلْبِ عَلِيٍّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ… الحديث.

Al-Fudayl ibn Yasar says: I asked Abu ‘Abd Allah al-Sadiq (A) concerning the meaning of ‘Allah is the Light o f the Heavens and the earth.’ He replied, “Such is Allah, the All-mighty and Glorious.” I asked him (about the meaning of the phrase) ‘the likeness of His Light.’ He said, “(It means) Muhammad (S).” I asked him, “(What is meant by) ‘as a niche’?” He said, “The breast of Muhammad (S).” I asked him, “(What is meant by) ‘wherein is a lamp’?” He said, “(It means) in it is the light of knowledge that is prophethood.” I asked him, “(What is meant by) The lamp is in a glass?” He said, “(It means) the knowledge of the Messenger of Allah (S) emanated towards the heart of ‘Ali’ (A)…”7

وَعَنِ البَاقِرِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ… أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ: أنَا هَادِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ؛ مَثَلُ العِلْمِ الَّذِي أُعْطِيتُهُ وَهُوُ نُورِي الَّذِي يُهْتَدَى بِهِ مَثَلُ المِشْكَاةِ فِيهَا المِصْبَاحُ. فَالمِشْكَاةُ قَلْبُ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ، وَالمِصْبَاحُ نُورُهُ الَّذِي فِيهِ العِلْمُ.

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The verse i showed does not show that we should not love anybody other than Allah, the point was that we should not love creatures like ahlulbayt the same way like we love Allah. That we must love Allah more. Allah and His creatures can not be compared, and our devotion and love for them should not compare either. Just because Ali was a great man, we do not compare the Greatness of Allah to Him .. or even say that Ali was al-Akbar

 

 

We Love Ahl Albayat as since we follow the prophet. We Love Allah swt ABOVE ALL  who has ordered us to Follow the prophet for his Love, and Almighty swt has ordered us to Love Ahl Albayt as in quran. Simply we Love Ahl albayat and follow the prophet to get Love of Allah swt as mentioned in the verses of Quran.

 

I am not able to understand why the people try to make a comparison of Love of Allah swt and Love of the Ahl albayat as believer / momin cannot deny any one of them.

 

Just forcing towards one particular view is considered as extremism in the belief.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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From al-Saduq's Kitab al-Tawhid, p.195:

 

9 - حدثنا أحمد بن زياد بن جعفر الهمداني رضي الله عنه، قال: حدثنا علي ابن إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن أبيه، عن أبي الصلت عبد السلام بن صالح الهروي، عن علي بن موسى الرضا، عن أبيه، عن آبائه، عن علي عليهم السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: لله عز وجل تسعة وتسعون اسما، من دعا الله بها استجاب له، ومن أحصاها دخل الجنة

 

9 - Ahmad bin Ziyad bin Ja'far al-Hamdani رضي الله عنه narrated to us, he said: 'Ali bin Ibrahim bin Hashim narrated to us, from his father, from Abi Salt 'Abd al-Salam bin Salih al-Harawi, from 'Ali bin Musa al-Ridha, from his father, from his forefathers, from 'Ali عليهم السلام, he said: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم said: Allah عز وجل has ninety-nine names, he who calls Allah by them will be answered by Him, and he who enumerates them will enter paradise.

 

* the hadith is Sahih

 

قال محمد بن علي بن الحسين مؤلف هذا الكتاب: معنى قول النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم إن لله تبارك وتعالى تسعة وتسعين اسما من أحصاها دخل الجنة، إحصاؤها هو الإحاطة بها والوقوف على معانيها، وليس، وليس معنى الاحصاء عدها، وبالله التوفيق

 

Muhammad bin 'Ali bin al-Husayn, the author of this book said: The meaning of the Prophet's صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم words: Verily Allah تبارك وتعالى has ninty-nine names, he who enumerates them will enter paradise: Enumerating them is comprehending them and understanding their meaning, and the meaning of enumeration is not counting, and the success (tawfiq) is through Allah.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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We Love Ahl Albayat as since we follow the prophet. We Love Allah swt ABOVE ALL  who has ordered us to Follow the prophet for his Love, and Almighty swt has ordered us to Love Ahl Albayt as in quran. Simply we Love Ahl albayat and follow the prophet to get Love of Allah swt as mentioned in the verses of Quran.

 

I am not able to understand why the people try to make a comparison of Love of Allah swt and Love of the Ahl albayat as believer / momin cannot deny any one of them.

 

Just forcing towards one particular view is considered as extremism in the belief.

 

Regards

 

as if anybody here claims not to be a follower of prophet mohamed .. point is that the person posting about love of ahlulbayt, forgot to mention that love of Allah is even there, let alone more important. And what this has to do with the topic at hand is a mystery to me. 

 

who is forcing a belief? by showing the fact that the prophet, nor the ahlulbayt asked for intercession from martyrs, tells us something. And the Quran likewise has not evidence thereof. Stating this fact is not enforcing anything. 

 

Some more hadiths:

 

 

عَنِ الفُضَيْلِ بْنِ يَسَارٍ قَالَ: قُلْتُ لأبِي عَبْدِاللهِ الصَّادِقِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ: ﴿اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ.﴾ قَالَ: كَذَلِكَ اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ. قَالَ: قُلْتُ: ﴿مَثَلُ نُورِهَ﴾ قَالَ: مُحَمَّدٌ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ. قُلْتُ: ﴿كَمِشْكَاةٍ﴾ قَالَ: صَدْرُ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ. قَالَ: قُلْتُ: ﴿فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ﴾ قَالَ: فِيهِ نُورُ العِلْمِ - يَعْنِي النُّبُوَّةَ. قُلْتُ: ﴿المِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ﴾ قَالَ: عِلْمُ رَسُولِ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ صَدَرَ إلَى قَلْبِ عَلِيٍّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ… الحديث.

Al-Fudayl ibn Yasar says: I asked Abu ‘Abd Allah al-Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã concerning the meaning of ‘Allah is the Light o f the Heavens and the earth.’ He replied, “Such is Allah, the All-mighty and Glorious.” I asked him (about the meaning of the phrase) ‘the likeness of His Light.’ He said, “(It means) Muhammad (S).” I asked him, “(What is meant by) ‘as a niche’?” He said, “The breast of Muhammad (S).” I asked him, “(What is meant by) ‘wherein is a lamp’?” He said, “(It means) in it is the light of knowledge that is prophethood.” I asked him, “(What is meant by) The lamp is in a glass?” He said, “(It means) the knowledge of the Messenger of Allah (S) emanated towards the heart of ‘Ali’ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã…”7

وَعَنِ البَاقِرِ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ… أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ: أنَا هَادِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ؛ مَثَلُ العِلْمِ الَّذِي أُعْطِيتُهُ وَهُوُ نُورِي الَّذِي يُهْتَدَى بِهِ مَثَلُ المِشْكَاةِ فِيهَا المِصْبَاحُ. فَالمِشْكَاةُ قَلْبُ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ، وَالمِصْبَاحُ نُورُهُ الَّذِي فِيهِ العِلْمُ.

It is narrated from Imam al-Baqir Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã that he said, “I am the guide of the heavens and the earth. The likeness of the knowledge that I have been given-which is the light wherewith they are guided-is as a niche, wherein is a lamp. ‘The niche’ is the heart of Muhammad (S) and ‘the lamp’ is the knowledge: that is, its light that is in it.”8

“Abu ‘Abdillãh Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå said, concerning the words of Allãh, the Sublime: ‘Allãh is the Light of the heavens and the earth: the likeness of His Light is as a niche, Fãtimah (as)wherein is a lamp, al-Hasan, the lamp in a glass, al-Husayn, the glass as it were a glittering starFãtimah is the glittering star among the women of this world; kindled from a blessed tree, Ibrãhīm (as). An olive that is neither of the East nor of the West, neither of Judaism nor of Christianity, whose oil well-nigh would shine, knowledge would burst out by it, even if no fire touched it. Light upon light, Imãm from it (the tree), after Imãm; Allãh guides to His Light whom He will – Allãh guides to the Imãms whom He will; Allãh strikes similitudes for men(an-Nũr, 24:35).’ I said: ‘Or they are as shadows (upon a sea obscure).’ He said: ‘The first, and his companion. Covered by a billow, the third, above which is a billow (above which are clouds), shadows, the second, piled one upon another, Mu‘ãwiyah, may Allãh curse him, and the commotions of the Banũ Umayyah (the Umayyids); when he puts forth his hand, the believer in the darkness of their commotions, well-nigh he cannot see it. And to whomsoever Allãh assigns no light, an Imãm from the children of Fãtimah (as), no light has he, (an-Nũr, 24:40) an Imãm on the Day of Resurrection.’ He said, concerning His words: (Upon the day when thou seest the believers, men and women,) their light running before them, and on their right hands (al-Hadid, 57:12): ‘On the Day of Resurrection the Imãms of the believers run before the believers and on their right hands, till they have set them down in the abodes of the people of Paradise.'”

Sanad: There are two chains for this hadith related by Al-Kulayni ÑÍãå Çááøå

Chain 1: Ali ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan ibn Shammun from ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abd al-Rahman al-Asamm from ‘Abd Allah ibn al-Qasim from Salih ibn Sahl al-Hamadani who has said the above hadith

Chain 2: Ali ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim al-Bajali and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja‘far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, from his brother Mũsã (as) who said the same tradition.

علي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسن، عن سهل بن زياد، عن محمد بن الحسن بن شمون، عن عبد الله بن عبد الرحمن الأصم، عن عبد الله بن القاسم، عن صالح بن سهل الهمداني قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله تعالى: ” الله نور السماوات والأرض مثل نوره كمشكاة ” فاطمة عليهما السلام ” فيها مصباح ” الحسن ” المصباح في زجاجة ” الحسين ” الزجاجة كأنها كوكب دري ” فاطمة كوكب دري بين نساء أهل الدنيا ” يوقد من شجرة مباركة ” إبراهيم عليه السلام ” زيتونة لا شرقية ولا غربية ” لا يهودية ولا نصرانية ” يكاد زيتها يضئ ” يكاد العلم ينفجر بها ” ولو لم تمسسه نار نور على نور ” إمام منها بعد إمام ” يهدي الله لنوره من يشاء ” يهدي الله للأئمة من يشاء ” ويضرب الله الأمثال للناس “، قلت: ” أو كظلمات ” قال: الأول وصاحبه ” يغشاه موج ” الثالث ” من فوقه موج ” ظلمات الثاني ” بعضها فوق بعض ” معاوية لعنه الله وفتن بني أمية ” إذا أخرج يده ” المؤمن في ظلمة فتنتهم ” لم يكد يراها ومن لم يجعل الله له نورا ” إماما من ولد فاطمة عليها السلام ” فما له من نور ” إمام يوم القيامة.

وقال في قوله: ” يسعى نورهم بين أيديهم وبأيمانهم “: أئمة المؤمنين يوم القيامة تسعى بين يدي المؤمنين وبأيمانهم حتى ينزلوهم منازل أهل الجنة.

علي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسن، عن سهل بن زياد، عن موسى بن القاسم البجلي ومحمد بن يحيى، عن العمركي بن علي جميعا، عن علي بن جعفر عليه السلام، عن أخيه موسى عليه السلام مثله

Source: Usool Al-Kafi, Volume 1, Hadith #513

Grading: Allaamah Majlisi ÑÍãå Çááøå said the first chain is weak, and the second chain is Sahih/Authentic (ضعيف بالسند الول صحيح بالسند الثاني) [Mira’at Al-Uqool, Volume 2, Page 358, 

 

 

 

 

Nor is there to Him any equivalent. 112:4

 

that includes all Names of Allah and all parables. 

 

 

 

H 197, Ch. 22, h 1 Al-Kafi Vol 1 -

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from al-Nawfali from al-Sakuni from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The holy Prophet (s.a.), "Over every truth there is a reality and above every valid issue there is light. Whatever agrees with the holy Quran you must follow it and whatever does not agree disregard it.

 

 

but, of course somebody who thinks that Ahlulbayt are the light of heavens and earth, even though the quran specifically says that Allah is the light of heavens and earth, i know how much importance you lay on what's written there in the quran. but it's for other members and readers of this post.

You looking at something exclusive. First of all, if Allah is the light of the universe, it means he is the light of the light of Mohammad. It's simple logic. Therefore Mohammad can be that very light in the universe, as well, as Ahlulbayt if they share the same blessings as him. The mathali noorihi is obviously not about Allah. Allah doesn't come from a blessed tree, nor is Allah ascending to be light upon light, nor is he in anything like a glass as he hollow (Samad) and sheer existence, high above all existence.

 

Creation is totally free from Allah and Allah is free from creation. The light of the universe has no similarity to Allah. But Allah is still the light of it, because praise is so linked to him, that Allah says "You did not throw when you threw but Allah threw".

 

At any rate, you dismiss the hadiths of Ahlulbayt and twist them out of the place they meant it.  Yet these hadiths are just a means for understand the nature of the design of the universe so that we can ascend inshallah and look into the malakut of the heavens and the earth.

 

The uncleanness is from dark forces, the light is from unseen forces that belong to Allah, the Imam is meant to be the companion of the journey. We don't know how he guides at all times, but he does, to mutaqeen. 

 

We pray that Allah makes us follow him while his appearance is clear, manifest, and beyond doubt.

 

Allah does not share His anything with anybody. Allah has no partners in His Light. We can't say that anybody other than Allah is light of heavens and earth. That is just pure sharing and partnering of Allah's descriptions.

 

If Allah is the light of heavens and earth, then nobody else can be that light in heavens and earth. There are no partners and Allah is One .. 

 

i dismiss any hadith that goes against the principles of clear verses of Quran, as well as tawheed. Go ahead and follow any hadith, just because it suits your claims of having humans embody Allah's unique descriptions. 

If Allah says that Allah is light of the heavens and earth, then Allah is that light .. and not some human. your opinions are 180 degrees against Allah 

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ily:Georgia;font-size:18px;">Nor is there to Him any equivalent. 112:4

 

that includes all Names of Allah and all parables. 

 

 

 

H 197, Ch. 22, h 1 Al-Kafi Vol 1 -

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from al-Nawfali from al-Sakuni from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

"The holy Prophet (s.a.), "Over every truth there is a reality and above every valid issue there is light. Whatever agrees with the holy Quran you must follow it and whatever does not agree disregard it.

 

 

but, of course somebody who thinks that Ahlulbayt are the light of heavens and earth, even though the quran specifically says that Allah is the light of heavens and earth, i know how much importance you lay on what's written there in the quran. but it's for other members and readers of this post.

 

Allah does not share His anything with anybody. Allah has no partners in His Light. We can't say that anybody other than Allah is light of heavens and earth. That is just pure sharing and partnering of Allah's descriptions.

 

If Allah is the light of heavens and earth, then nobody else can be that light in heavens and earth. There are no partners and Allah is One .. 

 

i dismiss any hadith that goes against the principles of clear verses of Quran, as well as tawheed. Go ahead and follow any hadith, just because it suits your claims of having humans embody Allah's unique descriptions. 

If Allah says that Allah is light of the heavens and earth, then Allah is that light .. and not some human. your opinions are 180 degrees against Allah 

 

you should be good to your parents, cuz if you didn't, you will do huge disobedience to God.

 

Am i saying that love to parents is superior to love to Allah?

 

Then why we put loads of emphasis upon how we treat parents and relatives and others, but not on how we fix our relation to Allah.?

 

No, the real question is : Why dose Allah put this significance in how good we are to our parents and linked it directly to his disobedeince ?

 

see, the same that goes above, should go on the love of Ahlulbayt. If we mentioned that we should love them it is because Allah said so... 

 

 

Now, do we mention Allah and remember him if we remembered his orders and laws?

If yes, then

If we reminded ourselves by the significance of being good to parents, are we remembering parents or Allah?

 

Why can't the same be said about Ahlulbayt? Why we cannot ask , why their love is so much significant and linked directly to the obedience of Allah?

 

 

I am not trying to convince you with anything here, but you seem to have put yourself in bubble, obstructing all other new information and feeling content with what you have. You are running in circles in your thoughts.

No one is calling other than Allah. No one is worshipping other than Allah, no one is loving ahlulbayt more than Allah. Loving them is wasila (a way , method, a door) to reach his love and acceptance. 

 

Love in Islam is conditioned. Love is when you love someone because he loves Allah and Allah loves him. Our love of Ahlulbayt is stemming from our love to Allah, if we didn't care about His orders we wouldn't be mentioning ahlulbayt, we would be somewhere in casino or bar or joining isis or other deviant path.

 

Now the light ..... Allah is the light 

Allah is the one who made light lighten up the place

Allah made the sun the light for earth 

Allah made starts lights of heaven

Allah made moon light to earth

 

Allah made prophets lights, through His light which He gave to the, He made the prophets guides. Prophet's knowledge and character and words guided those in the darkness of ignorance to the light of knowing their God!

So prophets were lamps (lights)

Imams were lamps (light)

 

heck, in hadith, even the shia during the great occultation are given the likeness of lamps (light) because the rest of the world will be in deep darkness

 

Allah in that verse says : The likeness of my light . And no thing in this universe has links to Him. But the light of Allah is being materialised to us through His messengers and the best of creations.

 

 

Heed and comperhend before you argue !

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031404-the-metaphor-of-death-and-ignorance-in-quran/

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It is very interesting to see two of my favorite posters, peace seeker and Struggling for the Light debating each other, anyway love for Allah is a prerequisite for loving the Ahlulbayt (as). Allah is master of all, including the Ahlulbayt, and He blessed the Holy Household of Muhammad like he did with the Household of Ibrahim, as a safeguard for our religion and as righteous and blessed guides for us.

Struggling, I will repeat what peace has said to you before you, the Names of Allah (swt) belong to Him and only Him in his absolute glory; The slave cannot be the master. Your argument, although interesting, is weaken by the reliance of hadiths and made false by Surah Al-Fatihah. Plus, Imam Ali (as) referred to himself as a weak and lowly, debased slave of Allah (swt) in Du'a Kumayl , how can you claim that Ali (as) is one of the Names of Allah or that he or any of other Imams (as) is the light of the heavens and earth when such a description belongs Allah alone? Tread carefully of such interpretations, akhi, it is this reason why we Shia are accused of shirk and a path to Ghuluw.

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Salam Gauis.I. Caesar

 

I think even Ghazali favored the mathali noorhi is the parable of Mohammad, and so this interpretation is not even a unique shia interpretation.

 

Suppose all these hadiths I showed (so 5 hadiths are all false) and even Saheefa Sajadiya is false. Let's assume, it's totally against what the Quran says.

 

I have the following questions:is the parable of his light, a parable of Allah or his light that is not HIM? From what I understand it's about the light in the universe, so it's talking about something or someone or somethings or some people who embody his light in the universe most perfectly.

 

So question 1, is a parable about Allah or about a created light that belongs to him?

 

Question 2, Do Ahlulbayt unite all blessings in the universe, all glory and beauty in it (like we bless Imam Mahdi in Du'a Al-Ahd), are the blessed with all blessings in creation, and we bless them with blessings that unites all that and is more, and bringers them to higher states then all of creation or do they lack blessings found in creation?

 

Question 3, why was Yaqoub likened to the Sun in the dream of Yusuf?

 

If Ahlulbayt unite all blessings in the universe, then the light in the universe is all found in them perfectly. 

 

The hadiths go on to say it's in fact their very light that makes them the guide of the heavens and earth, but, leaving this hadiths,  let's think about this logically. 

 

Allah (swt) says it is upon him to guide on the way, yet we know it's through Messengers, Prophets, Successors, and Imams that he guides. 

 

He says he is the true sole intercessor, yet has intercession happen through his permission from who he pleases. 

 

He says he is the helper, but helps with Angels, advises believers to help one another, and helps with obedient spirits both spiritually and physically to humans. 

 

Like wise, the true light, the TRUE LIFE, is Allah. There is no doubt about that, but that very light of his in the universe to me seems obvious that it unites in Ahlulbayt.

 

There is also something we just have to look harder. Remember in Lion King when Simba was told to look in the water, he will see his father (Mufasa). First he couldn't see it, but then he saw him, he was told "see he lives with you".

 

I feel this is not too far behind because all are connected to the malakut, and just as the Shayateen are present there with us, who is to say, in that malakut, the Imam is not present, but we just need to look harder and then we can get a great experience with him in which he manifest himself more and is less hidden. 

 

I feel Ahlulbayt (as) weren't try to praise themselves in these hadiths, but point to a reality, so that we can connect to it.

 

 

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Imam Khomeini also stated the following about Mohammad (saw):

 

He is the light mentioned in the ayah of Nur (Light): "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth". 

 

  

In Adabas-salah.


Furthermore reading in Adab-Asalah

:He is the light mentioned in the ayah of Nur (Light): "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth". [204]

When the greatness of the legislator of the religion and of the Messenger of the Lord of the worlds enters a man's heart, the importance of his precepts and rules enter the heart, too. Then, when the heart has comprehended that greatness, the other visible and invisible powers would submit to it, and the sacred Shari'ah would be observed in all the human kingdom. The sign of the truthfulness of the testimony is that its effects will appear in all the invisible and visible powers, and they will keep adherent to it, as has already been stated.

From what has so far been stated, the reason of testifying to the Messengership in the adhan, the iqamah and the salat has become clear, for the traveller on this spiritual road is in need of adhering to that sacred being, so that he may accompany him and have his helping guidance in performing this spiritual ascension.

Another aspect of this testimony is the announcement to the mundane and heavenly powers that the salat, which is the reality of the ascension [mi'raj] of the believers and the source of the knowledge of the people of gnosticism and of faith, is the result of the complete revelation [kashf] of Muhammad (SA), who, with his spiritual journey, divine attractions and the embers of the Beneficent, attained to a position "at the distance of two bows or closer still", [205]revealing its truth, following the Essential, Nominal and Attributive manifestations and intimate inspirations in the Invisible Oneness. In fact, this is a souvenir, a gift, that he brought from his moral and spiritual journey for his ummah, which is the best of the ummahs, and by that he favoured them and overwhelmed them with blessings. When this belief sets inside the heart and is fixed by repetition, the salik will, as a matter of course, understand the greatness of the state and the place, and will proceed, with fear and hope, to cover this stage, and it is hoped, insha 'Allah (Allah willing), if he does his best to perform it, that master will assist him and lead him to the state of "the Proximity of the One" [qurb-i ahadi], which is the original innate objective. In the divine sciences it has been proved that the return of all beings is implemented by means of the Perfect Man: "As He brought you forth in the beginning, so shall you also return.[206] "With you Allah started and with you He will end, and the return of the creatures is up to you."

 

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We would also have to reject all the hadiths that say Ahlulbayt are Allah's face and that Allah's face gives light to all things.

 

The question is, how far are we willingly to go, to find faults with words of Ahlulbayt.  What are we denying really? What do you suggest Ahlulbayt are then? They are light, but don't have the light of universe combined in them?


Remember people even rejected Imam Ali, through Quran, and accused him of being a disbeliever.   Quran has many faces, it should be use to prove a point, but at the end, we know devils can stop people from seeing the clearest of things from it, and so hadiths clarify what the Quran states and there is no running away clarification from Sunnah (of Mohammad and his family).

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you should be good to your parents, cuz if you didn't, you will do huge disobedience to God.

 

Am i saying that love to parents is superior to love to Allah?

 

Then why we put loads of emphasis upon how we treat parents and relatives and others, but not on how we fix our relation to Allah.?

 

No, the real question is : Why dose Allah put this significance in how good we are to our parents and linked it directly to his disobedeince ?

 

see, the same that goes above, should go on the love of Ahlulbayt. If we mentioned that we should love them it is because Allah said so... 

 

 

Now, do we mention Allah and remember him if we remembered his orders and laws?

If yes, then

If we reminded ourselves by the significance of being good to parents, are we remembering parents or Allah?

 

Why can't the same be said about Ahlulbayt? Why we cannot ask , why their love is so much significant and linked directly to the obedience of Allah?

 

 

I am not trying to convince you with anything here, but you seem to have put yourself in bubble, obstructing all other new information and feeling content with what you have. You are running in circles in your thoughts.

No one is calling other than Allah. No one is worshipping other than Allah, no one is loving ahlulbayt more than Allah. Loving them is wasila (a way , method, a door) to reach his love and acceptance. 

 

Love in Islam is conditioned. Love is when you love someone because he loves Allah and Allah loves him. Our love of Ahlulbayt is stemming from our love to Allah, if we didn't care about His orders we wouldn't be mentioning ahlulbayt, we would be somewhere in casino or bar or joining isis or other deviant path.

 

Now the light ..... Allah is the light 

Allah is the one who made light lighten up the place

Allah made the sun the light for earth 

Allah made starts lights of heaven

Allah made moon light to earth

 

Allah made prophets lights, through His light which He gave to the, He made the prophets guides. Prophet's knowledge and character and words guided those in the darkness of ignorance to the light of knowing their God!

So prophets were lamps (lights)

Imams were lamps (light)

 

heck, in hadith, even the shia during the great occultation are given the likeness of lamps (light) because the rest of the world will be in deep darkness

 

Allah in that verse says : The likeness of my light . And no thing in this universe has links to Him. But the light of Allah is being materialised to us through His messengers and the best of creations.

 

 

Heed and comperhend before you argue !

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031404-the-metaphor-of-death-and-ignorance-in-quran/

 

 

maybe you can heed an comprehend before arguing yourself!!

 

first of all i said the thing about love just to mention that we should love Allah more, and that love for ahlulbayt was not enough. It is worth mentioning love of Allah, as it's more important.

 

second point is you using parables and examples for Allah, and give it to humans. Typical setting up partners for Allah's Names and examples. Maybe Mahdi is compared to moons, or ahlulbayt are compared to lamps, but the lamp described in that verse is no ordinary lamp:

 

 

 

 The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire.

 

that example is in reference to Allah describing Himself as the Light of the heavens and earth. Nobody has the right to use this example for himself or for others than Allah. Why? because Allah has no partners. This example is for Him Alone. Why? because Allah can not be compared. Can you heed this one too??

 

and your talk about prophet guiding us .. hmmm .. interesting. Interesting that the Name of Allah is al-Hadi .. or the Guide .. while the name of the person who you supposedly follow .. the rep of the prophet today is called al Mahdi .. the guided. This means that after all the quran is right!!! Allah guides whom he wishes .. and the prophet is a mere messenger and warner. And bringer of glad tidings. So this means that again we can not switch attributes of Allah to humans!! isn't that great?!?!? (even if a prophet or human guide us, it's Allah who guides us through opening our hearts, and softening them to understanding. And the Guide can not be compared to human guide through Will of Allah)

 

but it does not surprise me that people here give the credit of guidance to humans, while ignoring that the quran is clear on this. Maybe you should call your imam al Hadi too .. give him the Name of God .. why not?!?! people here are arguing already that the ahlul bayt are the names of God .. and the light of the heavens and earth. I have nothing to do with that .. and i believe the opposite of all this 

Edited by peace seeker II

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Salam Gauis.I. Caesar

 

I think even Ghazali favored the mathali noorhi is the parable of Mohammad, and so this interpretation is not even a unique shia interpretation.

 

Suppose all these hadiths I showed (so 5 hadiths are all false) and even Saheefa Sajadiya is false. Let's assume, it's totally against what the Quran says.

 

I have the following questions:is the parable of his light, a parable of Allah or his light that is not HIM? From what I understand it's about the light in the universe, so it's talking about something or someone or somethings or some people who embody his light in the universe most perfectly.

 

So question 1, is a parable about Allah or about a created light that belongs to him?

 

Question 2, Do Ahlulbayt unite all blessings in the universe, all glory and beauty in it (like we bless Imam Mahdi in Du'a Al-Ahd), are the blessed with all blessings in creation, and we bless them with blessings that unites all that and is more, and bringers them to higher states then all of creation or do they lack blessings found in creation?

 

Question 3, why was Yaqoub likened to the Sun in the dream of Yusuf?

 

If Ahlulbayt unite all blessings in the universe, then the light in the universe is all found in them perfectly. 

 

The hadiths go on to say it's in fact their very light that makes them the guide of the heavens and earth, but, leaving this hadiths,  let's think about this logically. 

 

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says it is upon him to guide on the way, yet we know it's through Messengers, Prophets, Successors, and Imams that he guides. 

 

He says he is the true sole intercessor, yet has intercession happen through his permission from who he pleases. 

 

He says he is the helper, but helps with Angels, advises believers to help one another, and helps with obedient spirits both spiritually and physically to humans. 

 

Like wise, the true light, the TRUE LIFE, is Allah. There is no doubt about that, but that very light of his in the universe to me seems obvious that it unites in Ahlulbayt.

 

There is also something we just have to look harder. Remember in Lion King when Simba was told to look in the water, he will see his father (Mufasa). First he couldn't see it, but then he saw him, he was told "see he lives with you".

 

I feel this is not too far behind because all are connected to the malakut, and just as the Shayateen are present there with us, who is to say, in that malakut, the Imam is not present, but we just need to look harder and then we can get a great experience with him in which he manifest himself more and is less hidden. 

 

I feel Ahlulbayt (as) weren't try to praise themselves in these hadiths, but point to a reality, so that we can connect to it.

 

can you understand English at least?

 

it says:

 

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. 24:35

 

it means that Allah is this light .. how can you say 

 

"light that is not HIM?"

 

 

don't you get it? Allah describes the light in heavens and earth as himself .. in Arabic and all translations of the world. 

 

 

_____

_____

 

 

 

And you new point about Joseph dreaming of his parents being sun and moon .. do you know how small a sun is in this universe? How many suns do we have in our milky way galaxy alone? hmmm .. 70 trillion i believe. and how many galaxies do we have in this universe? i think another 70 trillion as well. And this universe could be another sand grain in another small planet of a tiny solar system again .. or what they call a multiverse. how can you compare a sun with the description of Allah's Light in sura 24:35

 

 

_____

_____

 

 

 

 

 

There is also something we just have to look harder. Remember in Lion King when Simba was told to look in the water, he will see his father (Mufasa). First he couldn't see it, but then he saw him, he was told "see he lives with you".

 

please don't tell me you compare Allah with Mufasa!!! please tell me i understood this wrong!! please!!!! please tell me now!!! ( please tell me i misunderstand )

 

 

..

 

 

and that example of angels helping us, well it's true, but whom do we ask for help? the angels or Allah? the OP needs to know this. Whom do we seek intercession from? The One who controls all intercession, or the intercessors who are not physically present? 

Edited by peace seeker II

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@ StrugglingForTheLight

 

here is one comment that relates to Chaotic Muslim's comment about guidance .. don't you think this comment should be about Allah? That Allah is the guide of Heavens and Earth?

 

you said:

 

 

The hadiths go on to say it's in fact their very light that makes them the guide of the heavens and earth,

 

i understand if we say that through Allah the Prophet or ahlulbayt are guides for some, but to say they are guides for everyone? What about the people in the Amazon who run around naked, while never having been exposed to anything outside that forest? Those people never heard of mohamed, let along a Book. They never heard of any previous scriptures as well. Are these people also guided by Mohamed and ahlulbayt? no .. they have their own guides and prophets, as Allah sends Prophets to all nations.

 

the Guide, or Al Hadi, is obviously the Guide for heavens and earth .. while there are many human messengers and leaders who are guides.

 

And Quran tells us not to differntiate between those messengers.


the guide for the heavens and earth is Allah .. the same One who guides the Mahdi, a name that literally means guided one .. and the same One who guided Mahdi is the one who guides you and every person on earth and in heaven ..

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The Light is united, that is why Quran says

 

Your Master is only God, as well his Messenger, as well those who believe, those who keep up Salah and give zakat while they bow.

 

As they are all the light to be obeyed, and submitted to, Allah uses a singular word "Master".

 

Imam Mahdi is that very light in the universe that guides the universe to Allah, he is that light of "Allah is the light of the heavens and earth". 

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maybe you can heed an comprehend before arguing yourself!!

 

first of all i said the thing about love just to mention that we should love Allah more, and that love for ahlulbayt was not enough. It is worth mentioning love of Allah, as it's more important.

 

second point is you using parables and examples for Allah, and give it to humans. Typical setting up partners for Allah's Names and examples. Maybe Mahdi is compared to moons, or ahlulbayt are compared to lamps, but the lamp described in that verse is no ordinary lamp:

 

 

that example is in reference to Allah describing Himself as the Light of the heavens and earth. Nobody has the right to use this example for himself or for others than Allah. Why? because Allah has no partners. This example is for Him Alone. Why? because Allah can not be compared. Can you heed this one too??

 

and your talk about prophet guiding us .. hmmm .. interesting. Interesting that the Name of Allah is al-Hadi .. or the Guide .. while the name of the person who you supposedly follow .. the rep of the prophet today is called al Mahdi .. the guided. This means that after all the quran is right!!! Allah guides whom he wishes .. and the prophet is a mere messenger and warner. And bringer of glad tidings. So this means that again we can not switch attributes of Allah to humans!! isn't that great?!?!? (even if a prophet or human guide us, it's Allah who guides us through opening our hearts, and softening them to understanding. And the Guide can not be compared to human guide through Will of Allah)

 

but it does not surprise me that people here give the credit of guidance to humans, while ignoring that the quran is clear on this. Maybe you should call your imam al Hadi too .. give him the Name of God .. why not?!?! people here are arguing already that the ahlul bayt are the names of God .. and the light of the heavens and earth. I have nothing to do with that .. and i believe the opposite of all this 

 

Yes. My imam is alhadi. 

I don't worship words. These are mere words that describe things and persons and beings. Allah is Al Hadi. But Allah created this universe in a way that things have causes. We are guided to believe in Gid through Fitrah. But we are guided to the ways of islam through Muhammad, whom Allah created as a cause of our guidance.

 

Allah in His book said to the prophet "You are but a warner, and each generation has its own guide" Ie, there is a different guid for each generation. Ahlulbayt and some sunni scholars when they reported the event upon which this verse was revealed, they reported that prophet pointed to Imam Ali and said "I am the warner and you -ali- is the had, guide of Quraish"

 

This is not an outlandish belief. Actually, those who object on this belief are the likes of those who objected on the prophet being regular human. They said how come a regular man get in connection with God and get special message to him. Book is revealed to him alone?

Why there is no personalised book for each single member of us?

Why aren't Allah sending us the angels so we believe ?

Allah answered this question, Allah said that If I were to send angels, i'll make them look like humans and dress like regular humans.

This is the test. Allah is sending to us regular humans from mud, as prophets or as imams to get guidance. 

They are not only delivery men. That's what Jews told Moses in the Exodus. They told him we memorised the torah and we don't think you have anything more to teach us so we are to choose new leader.

 

So when I call the imam as guide, as light as speaking Quran. I am talking about it within the context of the imam being agent chosen by Allah. No one from the Shia is speaking out of this context!

 

I wonder how hard it is to understand this simple rule. As shia we have to repeat ourselves in every line like we are talking to people who lost their short or long memory.

 

Who will tell you what is Islam? Without the prophet, his book and his hadith?

Who will tell you about tashayyu? Without imams and their lives and teachings?

 

Who will lead you to the fate of dying as muslim not as jahili? Without knowing Imam Mahdi and accepting him as leader?

aren't they guides? What were they then? What's their life worth if they are not guides? Old men reading old books? They never guided this Ummah? They never answered their questions and cleared their misconceptions?

Even te rulers of this umma needed their advice once in a while. The Islamic Calendar , the coins, the islamic script, the peak in sciences in all fields during the golden days of islamic empire, the islamic state laws and rules, the economy, the social harmony, etc etc

 

Why frowning at us when we call them Hudat (plural go hadi) When Allah used that title for them?

 

انما انت منذر و لكل قوم هاد

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The Light is united, that is why Quran says

 

Your Master is only God, as well his Messenger, as well those who believe, those who keep up Salah and give zakat while they bow.

 

As they are all the light to be obeyed, and submitted to, Allah uses a singular word "Master".

 

Imam Mahdi is that very light in the universe that guides the universe to Allah, he is that light of "Allah is the light of the heavens and earth". 

 

Allah is al-Waly and creatures are not al-Waly … no matter how you understand or see this verse, we may not say that Allah has partners in anything. Neither in His Name, nor in His status. I know this verse is used for people to claim that Allah has partners and shares something with others. Like they are comparable.

Yes. My imam is alhadi. 

I don't worship words. These are mere words that describe things and persons and beings. Allah is Al Hadi. But Allah created this universe in a way that things have causes. We are guided to believe in Gid through Fitrah. But we are guided to the ways of islam through Muhammad, whom Allah created as a cause of our guidance.

 

Allah in His book said to the prophet "You are but a warner, and each generation has its own guide" Ie, there is a different guid for each generation. Ahlulbayt and some sunni scholars when they reported the event upon which this verse was revealed, they reported that prophet pointed to Imam Ali and said "I am the warner and you -ali- is the had, guide of Quraish"

 

This is not an outlandish belief. Actually, those who object on this belief are the likes of those who objected on the prophet being regular human. They said how come a regular man get in connection with God and get special message to him. Book is revealed to him alone?

Why there is no personalised book for each single member of us?

Why aren't Allah sending us the angels so we believe ?

Allah answered this question, Allah said that If I were to send angels, i'll make them look like humans and dress like regular humans.

This is the test. Allah is sending to us regular humans from mud, as prophets or as imams to get guidance. 

They are not only delivery men. That's what Jews told Moses in the Exodus. They told him we memorised the torah and we don't think you have anything more to teach us so we are to choose new leader.

 

So when I call the imam as guide, as light as speaking Quran. I am talking about it within the context of the imam being agent chosen by Allah. No one from the Shia is speaking out of this context!

 

I wonder how hard it is to understand this simple rule. As shia we have to repeat ourselves in every line like we are talking to people who lost their short or long memory.

 

Who will tell you what is Islam? Without the prophet, his book and his hadith?

Who will tell you about tashayyu? Without imams and their lives and teachings?

 

Who will lead you to the fate of dying as muslim not as jahili? Without knowing Imam Mahdi and accepting him as leader?

aren't they guides? What were they then? What's their life worth if they are not guides? Old men reading old books? They never guided this Ummah? They never answered their questions and cleared their misconceptions?

Even te rulers of this umma needed their advice once in a while. The Islamic Calendar , the coins, the islamic script, the peak in sciences in all fields during the golden days of islamic empire, the islamic state laws and rules, the economy, the social harmony, etc etc

 

Why frowning at us when we call them Hudat (plural go hadi) When Allah used that title for them?

 

انما انت منذر و لكل قوم هاد

 

 

i won't even read the rest .. (if that is not equating Allah with creatures, then what is?)

 

Al Hadi (the Guide) = Al Khaleq (the Creator) = Al Wahid (the Only, Unique, One) = Al Lah (the God)    =/=   any human !!!!!!!!!!

 

 

____

____

 

(for any reader)

 

what people seem to forget is that Allah can guide people without use of anybody if He wishes. If Allah wants to guide somebody directly without Mohamed, or Ali, He can do so. He has no partners, and there is no need for humans. If we are guided through the prophet, then that's good. But we can't be too sure we are right, because ISIS and Hezbollah are supposedly guided by the same Prophet .. 

 

Allah is free from any association and being guided by Prophet Mohamed is not a must, and not a rule. The prophet should not be differentiated from other prophets according to the Quran, and Allah has no partners. His Names are for Him ..

 

i believe that this forum should have rules concerning partnering with Allah and Tawheed basics .. 

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Allah is al-Waly and creatures are not al-Waly … no matter how you understand or see this verse, we may not say that Allah has partners in anything. Neither in His Name, nor in His status. I know this verse is used for people to claim that Allah has partners and shares something with others. Like they are comparable.

 

 

i won't even read the rest .. (if that is not equating Allah with creatures, then what is?)

 

Al Hadi (the Guide) = Al Khaleq (the Creator) = Al Wahid (the Only, Unique, One) = Al Lah (the God)    =/=   any human !!!!!!!!!!

 

 

____

____

 

(for any reader)

 

what people seem to forget is that Allah can guide people without use of anybody if He wishes. If Allah wants to guide somebody directly without Mohamed, or Ali, He can do so. He has no partners, and there is no need for humans. If we are guided through the prophet, then that's good. But we can't be too sure we are right, because ISIS and Hezbollah are supposedly guided by the same Prophet .. 

 

Allah is free from any association and being guided by Prophet Mohamed is not a must, and not a rule. The prophet should not be differentiated from other prophets according to the Quran, and Allah has no partners. His Names are for Him ..

 

i believe that this forum should have rules concerning partnering with Allah and Tawheed basics .. 

read the rest !

you ought not to comment on my post without reading the rest !

Allah is alhadi, He created his prophets and made them causes of guidance thus our hadi is our prophet and imams, they are alhadi to the alhadi 

The guides to the Guide 

 

​except we don't have capital letters in arabic and one ought to use his capital common senses!

these are mere words.

alhadi means the guide . thats all it means . 

how do your brain function? Allah is alsamee3, albaseer, altabeeb, alhabeeb, alnour, aljabaar, alqahhar?

do you think that arabs don't use these words to describe other people ?

These are words!

 

oh and to go your style:

 

The Prophet said, “I am the warner, and the guide after me is ALI.”

 

 (Musnad Ahmad, 1/151; Al-Tirmidhi, 2/135; Al-Khasa’is of Al-Nisa’I, 20; Kenz Al-Omal, 1/247; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 222)

 

 

Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Jarrah narrated from the judge Amr bin Al-Husain, from Aminah Bint Ahmad bin Thahl bin Sulaymaan Al-Aamash, from her father, from Sulaymaan bin Mahran, from Mohammad bin Katheer, from Abu Khaithama, from Abdullah son of Omar, who said:

The Messenger of Allah said:

I am your Warner and Ali bin Abi Taleb is your guide. “Verily you are a Warner and for every group there is a guide” (13:7). Through Hasan, you receive Allah’s beneficence and through Husain you will achieve either salvation or damnation. Husain is a door from the doors of Paradise; Allah has made the smell of Paradise HARAAM (unlawful) on those who fight Husain.

Bihar V35 P405 H28. Ghayatol Maram P235 H6. Borhan V2 P181. Kharazmi in Maqtal V1 P14

 

 

You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.” [Quran, 13:7]

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir also said that “the warner” means the Holy Prophet and “the guide” means Ali and added “the authority to guide continues among us”.

 

 

 

 

Allah states in the Qur’an:

 

إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد

 

[al-hilali and khan 13:7] You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide.

 

Our scholar, Shaykh Hadi al-Najafi, in his Mawsu’at Ahadith Ahl al-Bayt, Volume 12, pages 5-6, Number 14667 records:

 

الكليني ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، عن ابن اذينة ، عن بريد العجلي ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) في قول الله عز وجل : ( إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد ) فقال : رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) المنذر ولكل زمان منا هاد يهديهم إلى ما جاء به نبي الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) ثم الهداة من بعده علي ثم الأوصياء واحد بعد واحد . الرواية صحيحة الإسناد

 

Al-Kulayni – Ali ibn Ibrahim – his father – Muhammad ibn Abi ‘Umayr – Ibn Azinah – Burayd al-‘Ijli – Abu Ja’far (Imam al-Baqir), peace be upon him, who said concerning Allah’s Statement {You are only a warner and to every people there is a guide}: 

 

“Allah’s Apostle, peace be upon him and his family, is the warner, and in every age there is a guide from us (Ahl al-Bayt) guiding them to what the Prophet of Allah (Muhammad), peace be upon him and his family, brought.

 

The guides after him (Muhammad) are ‘Ali, and then each of the heirs, one after the other.”

 

The report has a Sahih chain.

 

 

in short, every age has its separate guide from the Ahl al-Bayt. Each of these guides guide to what the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) brought. We understand from this Hadith and similar ones that the “guide” as mentioned in that verse must be ALIVE with the people of his time. Once a guide dies, he ceases to be the guide of the people after him. But, whoever is the guide after him actually guides the people to the teachings of all the previous guides, led by the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) himself. Today, our guide is Imam al-Mahdi (عليه السّلام), and he guides to the teachings of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Imams (عليهم السلام) after him. The guidance of a guide does not die with him. It MUST still be followed by all those after him, including all the subsequent guides.

 

The word “guide” has lots of meanings. Basically, whoever guides another on the way is his guide.

 

 

 

This is 101 logic. This is overly simple that it fits 5 year old child and can get it. It is only saying that Imams guide people -.- what's so shirki in this?

This is really really really absurd!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alraziq

 

Allah is al Raziq right?

 

​But I don't get gold delivered to my pocket  from heavens

 

 

I got to go to work and get some currencies

 

 

so , is Allah is alraziq here or am i getting my rizq from my boss?

 

 

 

Who is Al raziq for me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is not the logic of a muslim.

 

certainly not 

 

 

Allah is the one who created all the things and laws of things and causes and such

 

to make me able to work

and make my boss able to pay me

 

 

and make our paths meet so i can get my rizq through the work he offers

 

 

 

 

 

 

​Still, although the gold isn't delivered to my pocket, i'll say Allah is alraziq

 

 

 

 

 

 

How is AlHadi case is different ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last prophet

to all those on earth

 

Allah sent him to all on earth, as messenger

 

 

​He suppose to be delivering the message of God to all those on earth

 

 

Those who cannot meet him due to:

 

 

Geographical limits

 

 

or chronological limits (those in future like us)

 

 

 

 

 

​If thats the case of the seal of the prophets

 

 

 

​why can't it be the case of the imams?

Edited by Chaotic Muslem

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read the rest !

you ought not to comment on my post without reading the rest !

Allah is alhadi, He created his prophets and made them causes of guidance thus our hadi is our prophet and imams, they are alhadi to the alhadi 

The guides to the Guide 

 

​except we don't have capital letters in arabic and one ought to use his capital common senses!

these are mere words.

alhadi means the guide . thats all it means . 

how do your brain function? Allah is alsamee3, albaseer, altabeeb, alhabeeb, alnour, aljabaar, alqahhar?

do you think that arabs don't use these words to describe other people ?

These are words!

 

oh and to go your style:

 

The Prophet said, “I am the warner, and the guide after me is ALI.”

 

 (Musnad Ahmad, 1/151; Al-Tirmidhi, 2/135; Al-Khasa’is of Al-Nisa’I, 20; Kenz Al-Omal, 1/247; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 222)

 

 

Ahmad bin Mohammad bin Jarrah narrated from the judge Amr bin Al-Husain, from Aminah Bint Ahmad bin Thahl bin Sulaymaan Al-Aamash, from her father, from Sulaymaan bin Mahran, from Mohammad bin Katheer, from Abu Khaithama, from Abdullah son of Omar, who said:

The Messenger of Allah said:

I am your Warner and Ali bin Abi Taleb is your guide. “Verily you are a Warner and for every group there is a guide” (13:7). Through Hasan, you receive Allah’s beneficence and through Husain you will achieve either salvation or damnation. Husain is a door from the doors of Paradise; Allah has made the smell of Paradise HARAAM (unlawful) on those who fight Husain.

Bihar V35 P405 H28. Ghayatol Maram P235 H6. Borhan V2 P181. Kharazmi in Maqtal V1 P14

 

 

You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.” [Quran, 13:7]

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir also said that “the warner” means the Holy Prophet and “the guide” means Ali and added “the authority to guide continues among us”.

 

 

 

 

Allah states in the Qur’an:

 

إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد

 

[al-hilali and khan 13:7] You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide.

 

Our scholar, Shaykh Hadi al-Najafi, in his Mawsu’at Ahadith Ahl al-Bayt, Volume 12, pages 5-6, Number 14667 records:

 

الكليني ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن أبي عمير ، عن ابن اذينة ، عن بريد العجلي ، عن أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) في قول الله عز وجل : ( إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد ) فقال : رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) المنذر ولكل زمان منا هاد يهديهم إلى ما جاء به نبي الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) ثم الهداة من بعده علي ثم الأوصياء واحد بعد واحد . الرواية صحيحة الإسناد

 

Al-Kulayni – Ali ibn Ibrahim – his father – Muhammad ibn Abi ‘Umayr – Ibn Azinah – Burayd al-‘Ijli – Abu Ja’far (Imam al-Baqir), peace be upon him, who said concerning Allah’s Statement {You are only a warner and to every people there is a guide}: 

 

“Allah’s Apostle, peace be upon him and his family, is the warner, and in every age there is a guide from us (Ahl al-Bayt) guiding them to what the Prophet of Allah (Muhammad), peace be upon him and his family, brought.

 

The guides after him (Muhammad) are ‘Ali, and then each of the heirs, one after the other.”

 

The report has a Sahih chain.

 

 

 

This is 101 logic. This is overly simple that it fits 5 year old child and can get it. It is only saying that Imams guide people -.- what's so shirki in this?

This is really really really absurd!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alraziq

 

Allah is al Raziq right?

 

​But I don't get gold delivered to my pocket  from heavens

 

 

I got to go to work and get some currencies

 

 

so , is Allah is alraziq here or am i getting my rizq from my boss?

 

 

 

Who is Al raziq for me?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is not the logic of a muslim.

 

certainly not 

 

 

Allah is the one who created all the things and laws of things and causes and such

 

to make me able to work

and make my boss able to pay me

 

 

and make our paths meet so i can get my rizq through the work he offers

 

 

 

 

 

 

​Still, although the gold isn't delivered to my pocket, i'll say Allah is alraziq

 

 

 

 

 

 

How is AlHadi case is different ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last prophet

to all those on earth

 

Allah sent him to all on earth, as messenger

 

 

​He suppose to be delivering the message of God to all those on earth

 

 

Those who cannot meet him due to:

 

 

Geographical limits

 

 

or chronological limits (those in future like us)

 

 

 

 

 

​If thats the case of the seal of the prophets

 

 

 

​why can't it be the case of the imams?

 

 

you say the mahdi is al hadi … how can the guide be the guided one at the same time? does he guide himself ?? :P

 

ok, let me get this straight for you, and you will see i am right every time in sha Allah

 

and feel free to correct me if i'm wrong ..

 

 

you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever …. ever find an example in hadith and quran of anybody other than Allah being described as al-hadi , al-karim, al-ali, al-razaq, except that the "as" or the "the" is in context to something or somebody else. Never will it be a sweeping generalization with a full stop after it. 

 

let me give you an example from above:

 

"ali is the guide after the prophet"

 

you won't find a quran verse saying al rasul al hadi … 

 

find me an example of that, if you can. 

 

 

let us look at the name of God "al-Awel" .. or "the first"

 

now, if we are talking about "the first in line" , "the first to eat" , "the first to XYZ" .. then the word "the" is in context to a limited existence. However, if someone was to say "Ali is the first!", then that is a lie, because Allah was before him .. get it!?!?

 

That's why you saying Mahdi is your al-Hadi, is a sweeping sharing or partnering Allah's Name with others. 

 

you can say he is your hadi towards al-hadi .. which is what you said earlier ..

 

and if you say he is "the" guide towards "the" guide, then you are talking about relating the first "the" to "the guide" .. but reality is that we have Names of Allah, and they are uniquely to be used for al-Lah … same for al-Hadi, or al-razzaq (the sustainer).

 

 

And what concerns your comment about Allah having partners in being al-razak .. because your parents or your job are giving you money .. well that is inaccurate too. As all money is created by God alone, and transferred by him alone. Even if it appears to you otherwise. the proof is the saying of la hawla walaqowata ila billah .. ( there is no transfer and no power except with the God) 

 

so just because people do Allah's Will, does not mean we may give them the title of al-Razaq either.

 

 

i see this as sad, how people justify sharing Allah's Names, and Allah's parables with humans, just because they refuse to give all the credit to Allah. Even if the Prophet wills something, it is the will of Allah. Our guidance is 100% dependent on Allah, and His opening of our hearts.

 

The Names of Allah are for HIm alone .. and again .. find me a verse or hadith where words like rahman, raheem, razaq, wahid, mumeet, awel, hadi, are used without specific contexts .. 

 

and what this exactly has to do with the OP topic is a mystery to me yet, but i think it goes hand in hand. replacing the hearer of dua with others, while using Allah's Names for others .. it's hand in hand .. all to do with justifying partnering with God, where things should not be partnered. His Names should not be partnered (out of principle, even if we don't know why), and His parables should not be partnered, and our supplications to Him should not be partnered ..

let me give you one more example ..

 

Allah is al-Waly

 

 

is Ali al- Waly to you too??

 

do you say "Ali Waly" .. no! you say "Ali Waly Allah" (you see capital letters are not relevant in this ..) 

 

 

If anybody would make an adhan of "Ali al Waaaalyyyyyy" .. then issues with this adhan would be more than if the ahlulbayt made such adhan. Everybody in the whole world would accuse shias of blatantly calling Ali a god ...

 

 

go ask anybody who is a sheikh if saying Ali al Waly is acceptable .. or if that is shirq!

 

 

if you say Aly al Waly Allah … then the word "al" is in relation to Allah ..

 

 

just like you said al hady ila al hadi .. he is guide to the guide. but saying he is "the guide" alone is like saying in your adhan Ali al Waly. total and utter shirq or partnering of God's Name, and ask your shaikh about it please .. i beg you!

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Some points.

 

1. Du'a in hadiths and tafsir has been explained to be "worship", so it has the element of worship a long with asking.

2. Du'a without worship is not the type talked about in Quran and condemned, but we can call each other for example, and this would be not be worship.

3. Intercessors who intercede by God's permission happen in Quran and we see all sorts of example of this while alive, seeking intercession is not act of worship nor a Du'a, although some people took into extremes and worshiped intercessors with seeking their intercession, and Quran reminded them rather intercession belongs to him and only occurs through his permission.

4. We talking to the Prophet in Salah and this is not "Du'a". 

5. The Prophet was commanded to ask all previous Messengers, and get a response, the response is confirming the truth he knows which itself would be a help, thus seeking a request from previous Messengers was not shirk or Du'a and getting their help was not shirk.

6. The Prophets were told to aide any Messenger that came to them confirming what was with them while another verse shows Prophet to follow their guidance, and we see he had access to them.

7. In context of Imammate by Amrallah which is a spiritual companionship and guiding of the journey by supernatural means, we are told before that in the same Surah to ask the family of the reminder if we don't know. Surely the higher stations of actions and their inward states are something that we need to know from them. Does this verse make sense to be only applicable for a limited for people of a certain location. Or it is something that all humans can do whenever and where ever they live?

8. Du'a Nubda says Imam is the face of Allah by which the friends of God turn to God through. 

9. The discussion of the names, light, etc, is really irrelevant, at the end we all know Imams are only servants that God has favored, and we don't make them into gods or lords.

10. My personal understanding is that we should always ask God for this help, and intend in Suratal Fatiha that he helps us with the company of the Guide in the journey, but out of etiquette, we also ask the Imam, just like people wouldn't say "O Allah get Isa to pray for us to bring food from the heavens...", this goes against manners...so while we pray for this guidance and permission from Allah, ultimately we should ask the Hujja as well. One is submission to the Lord and God of the universe, and the other is asking a servant of God to do a function that we know Allah has appointed him to do and it's etiquette to ask him as well.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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1. Du'a in hadiths and tafsir has been explained to be "worship", so it has the element of worship a long with asking.

2. Du'a without worship is not the type talked about in Quran and condemned, but we can call each other for example, and this would be not be worship.

 

please explain how the following would be worship in your vocabulary?

 

 

 

Say, "Have you considered: if there came toyou the punishment of Allah or there came to you the Hour - is it other than Allah you would invoke (make duas to), if you should be truthful?" 6:40

 

No, it is Him you would invoke (make duas to)and He would remove that for which you invoked Him if He willedand you would forget what you associate. 6:41

 

 

or explain this one? how exactly is this dua worship?

 

Say: "Who rescues you from the darkness of the land and the sea, when you call upon (make duas to) Him in humility and in secret (saying): If He (Allah) only saves us from this (danger), we shall truly be grateful." 6:63

 

 

tell me how the above two verses are worship to you. Why doesn't Allah say we would call upon humans to intercede for us? 

 

 

 

3. Intercessors who intercede by God's permission happen in Quran and we see all sorts of example of this while alive, seeking intercession is not act of worship nor a Du'a, although some people took into extremes and worshiped intercessors with seeking their intercession, and Quran reminded them rather intercession belongs to him and only occurs through his permission.

 

 

really? let us look at 

 

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors (bringers of shifa'a) with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him 10:18

 

you see, the above shows us that they worship by asking for intercession. And that this intercession is an excuse used by people who do believe in Allah. 

 

just like the following verse that challenges the people to make dua to servants of Allah like Mohamed or Ali, so they respond. Not as worship in form of prostration. 

 

Indeed, those you call upon (make duas to ) besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful. 7:194 

 

you see, just like the verses about above show that dua is for times of need, and when we want help .. the following shows us the same.

 

 

Say, "Invoke (make duas to)  those you have claimed besides Himfor they do not possess the removal of adversity from you or [for its] transfer [to someone else]."17:56

 

Those whom they invoke (make duas to) seek means of access to their Lord (Al-Waseela), which of them would be nearest, and they hope for His mercy and fear His punishment. Indeed, the punishment of your Lord is ever feared. 17:57

 

 

you see, asking for spiritual help from someone is worship. When we want to have removal of adversity or help from drowning. Can you explain how seeking help for removal from adversity, or from the waves of a sea can be worship? 

 

 

 

4. We talking to the Prophet in Salah and this is not "Du'a". 

 

talking or sending blessings is not asking for intercession.

 

 

 

5. The Prophet was commanded to ask all previous Messengers, and get a response, the response is confirming the truth he knows which itself would be a help, thus seeking a request from previous Messengers was not shirk or Du'a and getting their help was not shirk.

 

what? the prophet asked all previous prophets for help? can you supply the evidence for this? 

 

 

 

 

6. The Prophets were told to aide any Messenger that came to them confirming what was with them while another verse shows Prophet to follow their guidance, and we see he had access to them.

 

can you show prophet making dua for help from any physically not present person?

 

 

 

7. In context of Imammate by Amrallah which is a spiritual companionship and guiding of the journey by supernatural means, we are told before that in the same Surah to ask the family of the reminder if we don't know. Surely the higher stations of actions and their inward states are something that we need to know from them. Does this verse make sense to be only applicable for a limited for people of a certain location. Or it is something that all humans can do whenever and where ever they live?

 

surah? aya?

 

 

 

8. Du'a Nubda says Imam is the face of Allah by which the friends of God turn to God through. 

 

well, either this is misunderstood or wrong. no way can this be used like the bahai's do .. to say that the imam is the qibla. No matter where the Imam is, the qibla is to God .. if this is used to justify partnering Allah in any way, then we might as well s[Edited Out] this dua. .. but now i am remembering that i am talking to someone who things the ahl bayt are the light of the heavens and earth! but other readers might enjoy this and understand this.

 

 

 

9. The discussion of the names, light, etc, is really irrelevant, at the end we all know Imams are only servants that God has favored, and we don't make them into gods or lords.

 

no it's not irrelevant when people use it as an excuse that our duas are worthless unless we partner others with God in them.

 

 

 

0. My personal understanding is that we should always ask God for this help, and intend in Suratal Fatiha that he helps us with the company of the Guide in the journey, but out of etiquette, we also ask the Imam, just like people wouldn't say "O Allah get Isa to pray for us to bring food from the heavens...", this goes against manners...so while we pray for this guidance and permission from Allah, ultimately we should ask the Hujja as well. One is submission to the Lord and God of the universe, and the other is asking a servant of God to do a function that we know Allah has appointed him to do and it's etiquette to ask him as well.

 

now this is the weirdest reasoning i've ever heard on this topic… etiquette .. you are so sure that a human being can hear each time a person asks him for help spiritually, first of all. then, secondly you think this Imam would be upset if you ask Allah without asking him? what an imam that would be!! jealous of God .. or what exactly? Imagine 120 million shias worldwide complaining and asking him for help at the same time! what a sight that would be. what an etiquette .. what kind of etiquette is that? asking a man for help is asking for a favor. It is not etiquette and has nothing to do with it. We can not compare or group asking help from Allah with asking help from anyone else. How strange! etiquette :) almost funny!

 

imagine imam mahdi in judgment day telling you "i was really upset because you only asked Allah for help, and you didn't ask me!! that was really rude of you!! why didn't you supplicate to me from the mosque .. and raise your hands and say "yaaa maahdiiii .. help mere!!! iyaka nestaeeeen " :P really, this is getting funny, and almost think i'm gonna miss this when i stop posting here .. 

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please explain how the following would be worship in your vocabulary?

Prayer means asking for a being/thing you deem worthy of worship, and you are humbling your request to it as a god. The verses you show just mean asking with intention of worship should be done to God alone.

 

Some people elevated intercessor to the station of sons of God and gods,  intercessors itself is not a problem, as verses confirm there are intercessors who intercede by his permission. But we should put in perspective, God raises their rank, raises their intercession, accepts from whom he pleases, and hence not make them into gods. 

 

The problem is you want to interpret all these verses in a way that condemns Shias. However, there is no proof.

 

I showed Mohammad asking/requesting something from Messengers of the past, was ok, according to Quran, as God commanded him to do that.

 

You move the goal posts all the time. You sometimes say "ask intercession of intercessors" is itself Shirk, but then remember, that Quran has believers seeking that all the time from those alive and present among them. 

 

Then you move the definition of Du'a as to be requesting dead people for intercession, but this makes no sense. It's your own definition as well as Wahabis, that has no basis in literature.

 

We can talk to the Nabi and pass our Salams, and it would be not a Du'a, so why would asking for his intercession be a Du'a? What difference does it make if they are present or absent in making in a Du'a. Does Salam to the Prophet become a Du'a simply because he is absent, no, so why does asking intercession do it?

 

Why didn't the disciples of Isa not pray to God directly and say "O Allah get Isa to pray for us to bring down food from heaven...", because it's out of etiquette to do so. They should ask Isa if they want Isa to intercede and get them to get food from Allah by his special relationship to Allah.

 

Likewise, we should ask God to guide us and open the doors of guidance, but if we want the help of Imam Mahdi, like Isa, it's etiquette to ask him as well.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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I showed Mohammad asking/requesting something from Messengers of the past, was ok, according to Quran, as God commanded him to do that.

 

where? can you point out where exactly you showed this?

 

 

 

Prayer means asking for a being/thing you deem worthy of worship, and you are humbling your request to it as a god. The verses you show just mean asking with intention of worship should be done to God alone.

 

actually in the verses above there is no mention of deeming worthy of worship. it shows clear cases of simply asking for help when in trouble. you are the one coming up with things like "deem to worship" .. where is the proof that that this is the case here for instance ..

 

Say: "Who rescues you from the darkness of the land and the sea, when you call upon (make duas to) Him in humility and in secret (saying): If He (Allah) only saves us from this (danger), we shall truly be grateful." 6:63

 

where is "deem to be worshipped" here? or does this verse show that supplication to others than Allah is a form of worship of others?

 

 

 

You move the goal posts all the time. You sometimes say "ask intercession of intercessors" is itself Shirk, but then remember, that Quran has believers seeking that all the time from those alive and present among them. 

 

yes and never from those martyred and not physically present among them

 

 

 

Then you move the definition of Du'a as to be requesting dead people for intercession, but this makes no sense. It's your own definition as well as Wahabis, that has no basis in literature.

 

really, no basis? like verse 10:18?? interesting. but then again, I'm talking to someone who things ahlulbayt is light of heavens and earth .. i need to remind myself of this

 

 

 

We can talk to the Nabi and pass our Salams, and it would be not a Du'a, so why would asking for his intercession be a Du'a? What difference does it make if they are present or absent in making in a Du'a. Does Salam to the Prophet become a Du'a simply because he is absent, no, so why does asking intercession do it?

 

one is sending salam, the other is asking for help .. like those verses i posted above. that show situations of asking for help being for Allah alone .. and i am not talking about physically present people. like "in secret" as posted in verse 6:63 .. 

 

 

 

Why didn't the disciples of Isa not pray to God directly and say "O Allah get Isa to pray for us to bring down food from heaven...", because it's out of etiquette to do so. They should ask Isa if they want Isa to intercede and get them to get food from Allah by his special relationship to Allah.

 

wasn't issa with them physically then?? but then again .. for you Issa is the light of heavens and earth .. and can have the Names of God .. so that's not far away from modern christians :P

 

 

 

Likewise, we should ask God to guide us and open the doors of guidance, but if we want the help of Imam Mahdi, like Isa, it's etiquette to ask him as well.

 

étiquette to associate others in our prayers and worship .. interesting … so say in your fatiha it is you and the imam i worship and ask for help :P change your quran around. i won't!! i won't say one thing and do another .. 

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Salam Gauis.I. Caesar

 

I think even Ghazali favored the mathali noorhi is the parable of Mohammad, and so this interpretation is not even a unique shia interpretation.

 

Suppose all these hadiths I showed (so 5 hadiths are all false) and even Saheefa Sajadiya is false. Let's assume, it's totally against what the Quran says.

 

I have the following questions:is the parable of his light, a parable of Allah or his light that is not HIM? From what I understand it's about the light in the universe, so it's talking about something or someone or somethings or some people who embody his light in the universe most perfectly.

 

So question 1, is a parable about Allah or about a created light that belongs to him?

 

Question 2, Do Ahlulbayt unite all blessings in the universe, all glory and beauty in it (like we bless Imam Mahdi in Du'a Al-Ahd), are the blessed with all blessings in creation, and we bless them with blessings that unites all that and is more, and bringers them to higher states then all of creation or do they lack blessings found in creation?

 

Question 3, why was Yaqoub likened to the Sun in the dream of Yusuf?

 

If Ahlulbayt unite all blessings in the universe, then the light in the universe is all found in them perfectly. 

 

The hadiths go on to say it's in fact their very light that makes them the guide of the heavens and earth, but, leaving this hadiths,  let's think about this logically. 

 

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì says it is upon him to guide on the way, yet we know it's through Messengers, Prophets, Successors, and Imams that he guides. 

 

He says he is the true sole intercessor, yet has intercession happen through his permission from who he pleases. 

 

He says he is the helper, but helps with Angels, advises believers to help one another, and helps with obedient spirits both spiritually and physically to humans. 

 

Like wise, the true light, the TRUE LIFE, is Allah. There is no doubt about that, but that very light of his in the universe to me seems obvious that it unites in Ahlulbayt.

 

There is also something we just have to look harder. Remember in Lion King when Simba was told to look in the water, he will see his father (Mufasa). First he couldn't see it, but then he saw him, he was told "see he lives with you".

 

I feel this is not too far behind because all are connected to the malakut, and just as the Shayateen are present there with us, who is to say, in that malakut, the Imam is not present, but we just need to look harder and then we can get a great experience with him in which he manifest himself more and is less hidden. 

 

I feel Ahlulbayt (as) weren't try to praise themselves in these hadiths, but point to a reality, so that we can connect to it.

Yeah, I remember that scene in the Lion King, interesting analogy, I never thought of it that way.

I agree with you that Ahlulbayt (as) were pointing and are guiding us to connect to the ultimate reality, which is Allah. Allah is Al-Haqq, and only Allah can be Al-Haqq. I dare say that the light of the Ahlulbayt and Prophets that you speak of is a manifestation of the light of Allah, and only Allah is the light of the heavens and earth. This is why Yusuf saw his father and likened him to the sun, because he was seeing the light of Allah in his father.

I am simply a layman and I have said my piece, Astaghfirillah, if I blasphemed with my words, which was not my intention but that is my understanding of the subject at the moment

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Salam

 

As long as we are respectful and understand each other to our best. Allah is the light of the light. This expressed by Ahlulbayt. 

 

There is a hadith that Allah gave a parable of his light regarding them. The thing is all the hadiths we have about this subject, all say (let alone the flow of Quran and obvious by metaphor), it is about Ahlulbayt.

 

In the absolute sense, from the sense of Al-Hayu, you are right, only Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth, and only he is the light of Mohammad. 

 

From another perspective, from the view point of his entirety of the light in the universe being found in them, then Imam is that too, as they themselves said "I swear by God, the Imams are the light brought down, and I swear by God, the Imam is God's light in the heavens and the earth".

 

I am at peace with the words of Ahlulbayt. They give me for faith in Islam and Quran, and make me verify this is a unique religion in how it emphasized on the haq.

 

Everything is created by the truth, and Imams guide by the truth, but you are right, only Allah is the truth, while the truth is with Ahlulbayt for sure and Ahlulbayt are with the truth. Allah is Al-Batinu.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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10 holy names of God:
 
 
O Light of lights, O Illuminator of light,   
O Creator of light, O Planner of light,   
O Estimator of light, O Light of all lights,   
O Light that precedes in existence every light,   
O Light that will survive all lights,   
O Light that is above every light,   
O Light like of which there is no light.  
Praise be to Thee, there is no god but Thee, The Granter of all Succour, Protect us from the Fire, O Lord. 
 
 
I think they clarify the matter, Allah is above and is not like the light of the universe, although yes he is the light of every light.
 
 

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can't you point out to me where the prophet supposedly asked all previous prophets for help? this is the third time i ask you .. and hopefully the last time

 

 

 

Allah is above and is not like the light of the universe,

 .. yeah just contradicting that Allah Himself describes Himself as the light of the universe. but you seem to know Allah better than Himself in the Quran .. 

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( is not like the light of the universe) vs.  (Allah is the light of the heavens and earth)

 

if this isn't denying the verses of Quran then what is?


For those who want the interpretation of Ahlulbayt, I've shown in it. I've also shown how reasoning confirms it. This debate is getting tiresome.

 

post number ? or post the hadith again ..

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I know a lot of people even though Saheefa Sajadiya has no authentic chain, have strong faith in it, and so I wanted to post something from it:

 

O God,
surely Thou hast confirmed Thy religion in all times
with an Imam whom Thou hast set up
as a guidepost to Thy servants
and a lighthouse in Thy lands,
after his cord has been joined to Thy cord!
Thou hast appointed him the means to Thy good pleasure,
made obeying him obligatory,
cautioned against disobeying him,
and commanded
following his commands,
abandoning his prohibitions,
and that no forward-goer go ahead of him
or back-keeper keep back from him!218
So he is the preservation of the shelter-seekers,
the cave of the faithful,
the handhold of the adherents,
and the radiance of the worlds!

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Ehemm .. "I know a lot of people even though Saheefa Sajadiya has no authentic chain, have strong faith in it"

Well I guess you won't point out where the mystery Hadith is that showed the prophet making duas to all previous prophets for help, as you claim. After asking you for it 5 times.

Allah is sufficient as disposer of my affair

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About Ismal Atham, here is an awesome Du'a:

 

In the name of Allah the All Merciful the All Compassionate

O Allah I beseech You by that name which is preserved in the hidden treasurers, 
which is the greatest and the most important, Proof, Truth, Protector, Pure, which is light and is from light
It's light is with the light, and that light is above all lights, light filled with lights, brightness in brightness. 
That light by which all the darkness was illuminated/shined, which destroyed all the compellers which could not be controlled  by the Heavens or the Earth. 
O He through whom the fear of a fearful can be averted, the magic of the magician be cast away, 
the conspiracy of consipiror can be void, the jealousy of every jealous be finished, the rebellion of every rebel is stopped, 
in Presence of His Greatness the mountain the dryness, the wetness split open 
and if spoken then the Angels protect and if written on a ship and left then the stormy waves cannot reach it, 
with it every transgressor and enemy and disobedient devil is controlled and it is Your Majestic and Greatest name which You have used for Yourself, 
by which You are on the Holy Throne and on Your Exalted chair. 
O Allah who is Greater and the Greatest, 
O Allah the most honored light o originator of the Heavens and the Earth. 
O Lord of Majesty and Generosity I beseech You by Your Honour and Your Majesty and Your Power and Your Abundance and by the sancity of Mohammad and his pure family
I supplicate to You by You and by Mohammad and his family that send blessings on Mohammad and his family and free me, 
and my parents and the believing men and the believing women from the fire of Hell 
and send blessings on Mohammad and his progeny. 
Surely You are the Praised the Glorious.

 

 

Anyone here who seeks reflection can understand who Ismal Atham is and who is the named. Ismal Atham is from light, Allah is not from light, he is the source of light and is not from anything. Ismal atham is light with light, and light above all other lights (ie. the top light), and is filled with lights. Allah is not filled with lights but is SAMAD (Hollow/sheer existence), and Ahad (one/single/simple). As we can see, the Ismal Atham is blessed with all the lights (in the universe). 

 

Then we ask God's power, jalal, etc, and by the sanctity of Mohammad and his family, and ask God by God, and by Mohammad and his family.

 

We can see Ismallah is not the same as the Named. there is difference between the name and the named.

 

Although this has nothing to do with the subject of Tawasul,  

 

Indeed the way to seek refuge in God has been emphasized to be through his NAME. His Name is created, and extends to everything all light, but at the end, the greatest name is Mohammad and the family of Mohammad.

 

This doesn't mean they are the named, it means they are what points to the NAMED in the most greatest way. They Glorify Allah as he ought to be glorified, and their glorification is the secret and purpose of the heavens and the earth, we been created to glorify God with their glorification of God.

 

 

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Salam,

I assume there maybe a misunderstanding between two words:

وسيلة = intermediary , device, tool, means

شفاعة = intercession

We are asked and may seek intermediary , which could be a living Imam of the time.

Allah says in the Quran as to seek an intermediary وسيله:

Surah maidah verse 35:

Surat Al-Ma'idah [verse 35] - O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means ( وسيلة )

---------

This means or tool can be prayer, doing good etc , also we can seek the means which can be the living imam of the time .

Seeking the means thru a deceased Imam may not be of help when we have a living Imam .

The reason being is : Each Imam is given the authority during his time of leadership, and therefore the command and authority given by Allah is no more in the hands of previous Imams ( leaders) although they are living in the other realm but no more carry the responsibility or Amr any more.

That is why we use the terms:

-Imam Zaman امام زمان: leader of time

-Wali Asr ولى عصر :the master of time

-Saheb zaman صاحب زمان : owner of time

- Wali amrولى امر: master of commands

- Saheb Amr صاحب امر : owner of commands

All which Allah , himself has given these powers and Authorization to the Imams and other beings .

------------

Like , Dhul qarnin in the Quran , where Allah had given full authority and choice to punish or forgive the sinners. And Dhul Qarnin chose to forgive.

18:86

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority), either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."

-------

Hence each Imam , was the Imam of their time, and the command was given to them to implement.

During the time of Imam Ali , after the demise of the prophet he was the Imam zaman , vali amr , saheb zaman if his time. So when the authority was with him , it was within his hands, not Imam Hassan or Hussain.

After Imam Ali's death, the authority of time and commands was in Imam Hassan's hands than Hussein so on so forth till the twelfth ,the end of time ,which is now , with Imam Mahdi .

Now the authority is no longer in the hands of previous Imams . It is now in the hands of Imam Madhi ( with the only exception of Imam Ali ,at times when required, as he is the Amir of mominin)

So we can use Imams as wasilah as our امر Amr ( commands )and زمان Zaman (time) is in their hands thru Allah's authority given to them under Allah's will.

So what ever Amr comes down in laylatul qadr is now given to the Saheb Amr, who is Imam Mahdi currently.

-------------------

As for the term love again I assume a misunderstanding here :

حب : love

مودة :affection ( from the root ودد)

We are supposed to have ودد for Ahlul bayt :

Quran uses the word مودة for relatives not حب:

ذَٰلِكَ الَّذِي يُبَشِّرُ اللَّهُ عِبَادَهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ قُل لَّا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا -الْمَوَدَّةَ- فِي الْقُرْبَىٰ وَمَن يَقْتَرِفْ حَسَنَةً نَّزِدْ لَهُ فِيهَا حُسْنًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ شَكُورٌ

That is the good news God gives to His servants who believe and do good deeds. Say, 'I ask of you no wage for it, except AFFECTION among the near of kin.' Whoever does a good deed, We will increase its goodness for him. God is Forgiving and Appreciative.

----------

Regarding the light of Allah , it is best to read Al kafi chapter hodooseh Asma.

In it , it is explained , that Allah's names including the name Allah is created by Allah, himself .

And the all other names come under the name of Allah.

Edited by tendersoul

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you say the mahdi is al hadi … how can the guide be the guided one at the same time? does he guide himself ?? :P

ok, let me get this straight for you, and you will see i am right every time in sha Allah

and feel free to correct me if i'm wrong ..

you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever …. ever find an example in hadith and quran of anybody other than Allah being described as al-hadi , al-karim, al-ali, al-razaq, except that the "as" or the "the" is in context to something or somebody else. Never will it be a sweeping generalization with a full stop after it.

let me give you an example from above:

"ali is the guide after the prophet"

you won't find a quran verse saying al rasul al hadi …

find me an example of that, if you can.

let us look at the name of God "al-Awel" .. or "the first"

now, if we are talking about "the first in line" , "the first to eat" , "the first to XYZ" .. then the word "the" is in context to a limited existence. However, if someone was to say "Ali is the first!", then that is a lie, because Allah was before him .. get it!?!?

That's why you saying Mahdi is your al-Hadi, is a sweeping sharing or partnering Allah's Name with others.

you can say he is your hadi towards al-hadi .. which is what you said earlier ..

and if you say he is "the" guide towards "the" guide, then you are talking about relating the first "the" to "the guide" .. but reality is that we have Names of Allah, and they are uniquely to be used for al-Lah … same for al-Hadi, or al-razzaq (the sustainer).

And what concerns your comment about Allah having partners in being al-razak .. because your parents or your job are giving you money .. well that is inaccurate too. As all money is created by God alone, and transferred by him alone. Even if it appears to you otherwise. the proof is the saying of la hawla walaqowata ila billah .. ( there is no transfer and no power except with the God)

so just because people do Allah's Will, does not mean we may give them the title of al-Razaq either.

i see this as sad, how people justify sharing Allah's Names, and Allah's parables with humans, just because they refuse to give all the credit to Allah. Even if the Prophet wills something, it is the will of Allah. Our guidance is 100% dependent on Allah, and His opening of our hearts.

The Names of Allah are for HIm alone .. and again .. find me a verse or hadith where words like rahman, raheem, razaq, wahid, mumeet, awel, hadi, are used without specific contexts ..

and what this exactly has to do with the OP topic is a mystery to me yet, but i think it goes hand in hand. replacing the hearer of dua with others, while using Allah's Names for others .. it's hand in hand .. all to do with justifying partnering with God, where things should not be partnered. His Names should not be partnered (out of principle, even if we don't know why), and His parables should not be partnered, and our supplications to Him should not be partnered ..

let me give you one more example ..

Allah is al-Waly

is Ali al- Waly to you too??

do you say "Ali Waly" .. no! you say "Ali Waly Allah" (you see capital letters are not relevant in this ..)

If anybody would make an adhan of "Ali al Waaaalyyyyyy" .. then issues with this adhan would be more than if the ahlulbayt made such adhan. Everybody in the whole world would accuse shias of blatantly calling Ali a god ...

go ask anybody who is a sheikh if saying Ali al Waly is acceptable .. or if that is shirq!

if you say Aly al Waly Allah … then the word "al" is in relation to Allah ..

just like you said al hady ila al hadi .. he is guide to the guide. but saying he is "the guide" alone is like saying in your adhan Ali al Waly. total and utter shirq or partnering of God's Name, and ask your shaikh about it please .. i beg you!

You are 7imar

Only 7imar cannot understand words and turn them to meanings.

Imam Mahdi is guided by Allah to guide the misguided people

He - imam Mahdi- is created cause of hidayiah

The word in a Arabic and I suppose in every -human- language to describe those who guide is a guide.

But you are 7imar.

Imam Mahdi is the Hadi of this ummah by the order of Allah .

Anyways. 7mar.

You are on my ignore list for ever.

can't you point out to me where the prophet supposedly asked all previous prophets for help? this is the third time i ask you .. and hopefully the last time

.. yeah just contradicting that Allah Himself describes Himself as the light of the universe. but you seem to know Allah better than Himself in the Quran ..

Are you saying that light coming from the lamp is Allah himself?

7mar!

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