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iubelum

Belief In Intercession,compulsory Or Not?

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you can argue all you like, but you can never say that

 

Names of Allah = Ahlulbayt

 

Talking about the meaning of Names and relating them to yourself and humans is something else, But the name Allah for instance is not a human, or anybody than the One,

 

this statement can never be true:

 

 

 

"we, i swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah

and if you believe that Muhamed is the Names of Allah .. then this statement means

 

 

 

Do you think the mere concepts that exist in you, is exactly how Mohammad glorified Allah?

 

that Mohamed glorified himself, because the Name Allah would be him too .. as well as the 13 others and many other prophets too .. 

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you can argue all you like, but you can never say that

 

Names of Allah = Ahlulbayt

 

Talking about the meaning of Names and relating them to yourself and humans is something else, But the name Allah for instance is not a human, or anybody than the One,

 

this statement can never be true:

The names of Allah are the light of Allah, the face of Allah in creation. The reality is God has one name in reality, and you are right, it's not just a human, but it encompasses the whole of creation as far the praise goes. All praise belongs to Allah because it's his name and light. The light in the universe exists perfectly in Mohammad. Mohammad is that very reminder of Allah, because he glorifies God with understanding of "all the names" and is sent "with the name of Allah". 

 

Allah's Names are not simply dead concepts, his light is not just an idea, it's a living reality. His names exist in us but so does darkness. Ahlulbayt are the door of light out of the darkness to glorify Allah as he is suppose to be glorified and with the truth of Allah's Light.

 

The names and the named are so connected, the Quran says "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth". But the meaning is Allah, not Mohammad, not Ahlulbayt. They are however ARE the names of Allah.

Ahlulbayt made a distinction between the names and the named. We worship the named, not the names. Try to understand and not argue.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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i think there is no point even arguing this point, as you are not even discussing the matter at hand. This (false) idea that the Names of Allah are ahlulbayt, while some people saying this is proof we can only worship God through some humans, otherwise we are like iblis!

 

plus there are other points, and i don't want to dilute this thread too much. but i appreciate your conversation of the attributes and names of Allah outside this context of discussion of the OP. maybe we should discuss this further in another thread, and we can discuss it in relation to Quran and hadiths in sha Allah.

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i think there is no point even arguing this point, as you are not even discussing the matter at hand. This (false) idea that the Names of Allah are ahlulbayt, while some people saying this is proof we can only worship God through some humans, otherwise we are like iblis!

plus there are other points, and i don't want to dilute this thread too much. but i appreciate your conversation of the attributes and names of Allah outside this context of discussion of the OP. maybe we should discuss this further in another thread, and we can discuss it in relation to Quran and hadiths in sha Allah.

Salam.

We are asked to hold on to two weighty things, Qur'an and Ahlulbayt so that we will not go astray if we want to reach Him swt.

1. What is common between Qur'an and Ahlulbayt?

2. What is a 'haq'...truth? When something is a truth, what is happening behind the scene, that something is called a truth.

When something contains in itself, Names of Allah swt, the truth will spring out from it...the Light of Allah swt will shine from it.

Qur'an contains the truth, so does Ahlulbayt.

Please don't be confuse with the physical Qur'an that in the book that we carry everyday. Also don't get confused with physical human body of Ahlulbayt.

We want to reach Allah swt through that Names of Allah swt that exist in Quran and Ahlulbayt. The Light so bright that if we dont hold on to it...we will go astray and turn into syaitan.

Layman

Edited by layman

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wasalaam

 

whatever it is, Allah is the Creator, and Ahlul Bayt are created. whether physical or non-physical

 

the name Al Khaliq is not Ahlul Bayt. Same with all other Names of Allah, that are for Allah alone. Just like Allah. Ahlulbayt are not Allah! no matter how much one tries to twist and turn

 

Holding on to Quran and sunnah of Ahlulbayt means 

 

#1 - understanding that Quran does not mention once making dua for intercession from any martyr.

#2 - there is no documented sunnah of ahlulbayt that of them ever asked anybody like their grandfather Mohamed for intercession or help after he passed away

 

.. that is clear in the thaqalayn

 

additionally, the angels making prostration to Adam, does not mean we may make prostration to any human in spirit or flesh. And prostration does not mean dua.

 

 

now, we know that the ahlulbayt and 140,000 prophets of all ranks never asked martyrs for intercession or help .. now let us look at verses in the quran that talk about intercession:

 

 

 

قل لله الشفاعة جميعا له ملك السماوات و الأرض ثم إليه ترجعون

 

Say, "To Allah belongs intercession (alshifa3atu) entirely. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. Then to Him you will be returned." 39:44 

 

و لا تنفع الشفاعة عنده إلا لمن أذن له

 

And intercession (shifa3a) does not benefit with Him except for one whom He permits. 34:23

 

الله الذي خلق السماوات و الأرض وما بينهما في ستة أيام ثم استوى على العرش ما لكم من دونه من وليّ و لا شفيع أفلا تتذكرون

 

It is Allah who created the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them in six days; then He established Himself above the Throne. You have not besides Him any protector (Waly) or any intercessor (Shafi'in); so will you not be reminded? 32:4

 

و يعبدون من دون الله ما لا يضرهم و لا ينفعهم و يقولون هؤلاء شفعاؤنا عند الله قل أتنبئون الله بما لا يعلم في السماوات و لا في الأرض سبحانه و تعالى عما يشركون

 

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors (bringers of shifa'a) with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him 10:18

 

يومئذ لا تنفع الشفاعة إلا من أذن له الرحمن و رضي له قولا

 

That Day, no intercession (shifa'a) will benefit except one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. 20:109

 

interesting that Allah stresses that all intercession is with Him, and with His permission. It show that if you want intercession, that we ask Allah directly. Why? because it happens with His permission. And entirely His permission. And again, there is no shred of evidence that we should ask martyrs for help, nor is there an example of it in thaqalayn, among those who's sunnah we are to follow.

 

clear cut case.


of course we have soooo many verses on the topic of "dua" as well, that nobody seems to want to explain. What kind of "dua" is meant here. Of course to me it's clearly the same dua that everybody understands when they hear this word in context. namely spiritual supplication for help:

 

و أن المساجد لله فلا تدعوا مع الله أحدا

 

And that the mosques belong to Allah; so do not invoke (make duas to), along with Allah, anyone. 72:18

 

 

قل إنما أدعو ربي و لا أشرك به أحدا

 

Say, "Surely I invoke ( make duas to) my Lord, and I do not associate with Him anyone." 72:20

 

 

إن الذين تدعون من دون الله عباد أمثالكم فادعوهم فليستجيبوا لكم إن كنتم صادقين

 

 

Indeed, those you call upon (make duas to ) besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful. 7:194 


thaqalayn is clear on this:

 

#1 not one case of asking for intercession via supplication to others than Allah in Quran

#2 not one case of asking for intercession via supplication to others than Allah in narrations by any ahlulbayt member of any rank, or any prophet

Edited by peace seeker II

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Salam,

First of all, no Shias will believe Ahlulbayt is the Allah. That is wrong understanding.

Allah swt created His Names to be the interface between created with the Creator. So we call upon Him through His Names.

The presence of His Names in Quran makes the Quran as for Humans to follow. The presence of His Names in Kaabah, turns kaabah into Baitullah. The presence of His Names in muslims make him or her a mukmin. The eeman in a mukmin depends on how bright is the Names of Allah in their heart. The brighter...the higher the status...up to becoming a prophet or Messenger. The more prominent of the brightness of the Names the higher will be the responsibilities.

So the presence of His Names in totalness in the Souls of Ahlulbayt make them Imam for Mankinds and more than that.

Ahlulbayt have given total submission to Allah swt and Allah has total control on their nafs. Meaning, the Names of Allah swt that controlling their Nafs do the talking to humans. Therefore they are maksum and we must follow what Ahlulbayt asked us to do. Therefore, we see Ahlulbayt as Names of Allah. It has been verified by Ahlulbayt themselves and they told us that they are Names of Allah swt as written in al Kafi.

The total submission of our souls to Names of Allah swt is called Tauheed.

When i see Ahlulbayt, my heart see them as Names of Allah, as if Allah is talking to me. If I love them, because i see the brightness of Names of Allah in them and therefore loving them mean loving Allah swt.

Getting closer to Allulbayt means getting closer to Names of Allah and this Tauheed. Ultimately this is called the siratul mustaqiim.

Edited by layman

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Salam

 

Love of Allah and Ahlulbayt is found in loving his creation as well. This is because the light of Ahlulbayt is found in all creation but in much less amount and in more imperfect way. 

 

However, the Quran says the path to God is love in al-Qurba, while other verses talk about acting with the name of Allah. Put it together, the name of Allah and love of the family of Mohammad go together in intention.

 

If we love Ahlulbayt, they are measuring stick by how we love other creation. The Prophets deserve most love, due to they being the most closest to Ahlulbayt.  Believers deserve that love.

 

Their deniers who are very well aware of proofs of their station and rank, but twist and turn, however we must be free from, if we want to be sincere to Ahlulbayt.

 

Likewise, when we love other people, we must love them to the degree they are like Ahlulbayt or deviated from them. 

 

Humanity on large part like to deceive themselves as being good, and hence, will due a lot of good deeds just to feed their ego. But God wants sincerity, and he tests our sincerity by our submission to his chosen ones and the path he has ordained.

 

I remember as a non-Muslim, it felt like I was a saint, but I've come to realize it was self-deception, in which during that time, my heart to a large degree hardened, even though I was more sure of God's existence then ever.

 

Now I feel always guilty and far away from God, and don't feel good...but I feel like this is due to me realizing the path I am lacking in Ahlulbayt and their sincere lovers.

 

However, without attachment to their light and guidance of their Mastership, I feel we humans will easily be self-deceived in thinking we are honorable and good, while our hearts are detached from Allah's light and we are engrossed with deception.

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Salam

 

Another thing I am thinking about, is perhaps Ahlulbayt coming to vision to our hearts, is not the only help in the malakut they can give. For example, Satan afflicts us with his forces with his uncleanness. A lot of people are unaware of the uncleanness or the unseen unclean forces that attack our spiritual world. Likewise, Angels helped make firm believers in Quran at certain points and Allah's describes that as his help and talked about tranquility descending or "water" descending from the sky/heaven, to the extent it kept uncleanness of Satan away from some or removed it from some.

 

The Quran talks about us being able to look into the malakut "will they not look towards the malakut of the heavens and the earth, and of what Allah has created".

 

Perhaps the first step is realize the "star" we see, is that very bright star in the Aya of the parable of his light, then perhaps it will become more brighter like the moon, then the Sun.

 

Perhaps a lot of us started off with vision of the sun but find ourselves immersed in the dark now, and can only see it as a star. Perhaps we still are linked to the malakut, but just got to think about it, think about the light, what is that light?

 

When I recite suratal falaq or suratal nass, I often feel an effect. Perhaps "the name of Allah" that we are seeking refuge in God by is suppose to be the light of the Imam which according to Saheefa Sajadiya, the Imam is "baha'al alameen" (the glory/glamour of the world). This hinted in Du'a Sabaasaab.

 

May Allah guide us and help us with the obedient spirits. 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Salam,

 

 

(1)

 Therefore, we see Ahlulbayt as Names of Allah. It has been verified by Ahlulbayt themselves and they told us that they are Names of Allah swt as written in al Kafi.

 

(2)

When i see Ahlulbayt, my heart see them as Names of Allah, as if Allah is talking to me.

 

Wa Alaikum Salaam warahmat Allah

 

(1)

Those two statements are as wrong as can get, but if you want to believe it, then go ahead. I can not stop christians from believing the same about Jesus either.

 

Just a reminder that the Name of Allah, is Allah, and the Creator, for instance. So you see Ahlulbayt as Allah, and the Creator .. because those are 2 of the Names.

 

that Al Kafi hadith is as wrong as can get, and contradicts Quran and tawheed literally. There is only One to whom these Names belong!

 

(2)

That second statement is really strange. i wonder what Moses would have to say to this, as he is one who has experienced Allah talking to him. And that sentence really does compare Allah to humans doesn't it? And it shows that when you see ahlulbayt (where you see them is a whole other question), that you see Allah. Allah is a Name of Allah. 

 

Go ahead associating Allah's Names (tushrik in Arabic) with His creatures. I won't. And i hope that people stop doing it. 

 

____

____

 

 

a note on shias in general .. it is sad to see that when people talk about Imam Ali and his status as khalifa, the shias are quick to jump to the rescue and give all kinds of support to defend Imam Ali's rights.

 

But when it comes to lowering Allah's incomparable status, and comparing Him to others, and even giving His Names to others, i see no shias jumping to the rescue here of the truth. Here is a person who is saying that ahlulbayt talking to him, is like Allah talking to him. That the Names of Allah are for some people. That the Name the Creator is for the created. And how many shias do i see here? I think the issue of Ali is nothing compared to the issue of al-Ali. Somebody here, and people here are saying that Ali is al-Ali .. somebody is saying here that Ali talking is like al-Ali talking. that is worse and incomparably worse than confusing the status of Ali with Abu Bakr .. at least they are two creatures! They can be compared. Both could be potentially khalifs if Allah wants it. But can a human ever share a Name with Allah? Can a creature be like Allah? I hope Allah strengthens and empowers people who see the unacceptable movement here. And i am positive that this will become totally annihilated once the Mahdi arrives in sha Allah. When his zuhoor is official, and it is completed. I'm 100% sure that the Mahdi will never claim Names of Allah as his own. He will never claim likeness to Allah. And he will never ask or allow people to supplicate to him. The Mosques are for Allah, therefore we are to supplicate to Allah alone.

_____

_____

 

@ StrugglingForTheLight

 

Walaikum Salaam warahmat Allah 

 

in your first post you touch on the idea of loving His creations vs loving Allah. That loving one is the same as loving the other. There is truth to this, but then again we can not use this to worship the creations, for instance. There is a verse about love (hobb) of God, and shows we must make a distinction in our love for God

 

And among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals. They love them as they love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . 2:165

 

People confuse the two all the time. You see the post above by brother Layman, you see a direct association of the two. That not only does he love the two the same, but he sees both as the same. When one talks, it's like the Other talking. 

 

Anyway, your second post is like you admit that people here are on the level of Abraham in the quran, when he thought his "Lord" or "Rabb" was a star, sun, and moon. Yes perhaps it is, and i can only hope that the people here and everywhere soon evolve to the realization that it's not, the same way Abraham is did in the Quran. The Name "Rabb" is not for somebody that sets .. not for somebody who's body goes into a grave. Not for somebody who is born and who's body dies. That is not a "al Rabb", as many people here would argue. People who think that people with life cycles are the Name of Allah .. that is a sad development, but maybe as you said, it's an evolution after many years without guidance by any prophet or one of the 12.

 

The Nour / light of the Moon, Sun, Star, Humans is not the Light of the Creator. They are totally and utterly unrelated. There is no association (shirk) between the two. We can not say there is any relation between Allah and His creations. 

 

anyway

 

 

 

May Allah guide us and help us with the obedient spirits. 

 

ameen.

Edited by peace seeker II

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اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ مُبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ ۚ نُورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ ۗ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {35}

[shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Salam,

I don't expect you to understand the concept because you cut and paste my statements not within the context of my explanation...you see Kaabah as Kaabah, not Baitullah. Or you see Muhammad as Human and Not as Rasulullah. These words, house of Allah or Messenger of Allah have deep meaning, it means connection to Allah swt through a mean.

We never believe that AHlulbayt is the Allah. We believe Names of Allah swt are means to control them completely. Whatever they do, it is the Will of Allah swt. That is the reason we follow Ahlulbayt. If Ahlulbayt perform one single action by themselves and not through the Wills of Allah swt, then they are not protected and no longer an Imam.

When someone is a slave of a person, his master will have full control of him, like the old Arab tradition.

Ahlulbayt are pure servants of Allah swt, meaning Allah swt control them. When they only perform actions based on Allah swt wills...that Wills reflect His Names.

When I read dua given by Ahlulbayt to us, that dua came to me from Allah swt through His Names to Ahlulbayt and to me.

If the dua is just from Ahlulbayt alone and not through Allah swt Names...then I will not read that dua because it has no connection Allah swt.

We should distinguish between Allah swt , His created Names and His Slaves. Allah swt is the One we worship and He is beyond description. To make his slaves to address Him, His Names were created. If His Names were not there, we will not know how to worship Him. Through His Names, Allah swt control everything and through His Names we address and worship Him.

Through His Names, Muhammad became Rasulullah. For Muslim, it is the Names of Allah swt that control Muhammad that we are interested, not Muhammad the human part. Muhammad the physical has passed away. The Names of Allah swt that control Souls of Muhammad live on, so do the souls...the pure souls.

Edited by layman

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Salam

 

There this verse which is interesting to say the least:

 

وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ {45}

[shakir 43:45] And ask those of Our messengers whom We sent before you: Did We ever appoint gods to be worshiped besides the Compassionate.

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اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ مُبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ ۚ نُورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ ۗ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {35}

[shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

 

 

yeah that is a very beautiful verse that is not comparable to any actual niche or lamp or star, or fuel. There is no fuel we know of that is neither eastern or western. It's like the comparison to the hand/face/chair of Allah ..

Salam

 

There this verse which is interesting to say the least:

 

وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ {45}

[shakir 43:45] And ask those of Our messengers whom We sent before you: Did We ever appoint gods to be worshiped besides the Compassionate.

 

yes it's a nice verse 

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The hadiths as well as Quran (if you read the third verse after) confirm it's about Ahlulbayt. They are the totality of the light in the universe, is them. The hadiths say "the likeness of his light" is Mohammad or Fatima or other hadiths say that is what the Imam has been given. We have another hadith that this is a parable to Ahlulbayt. The light is connected to Allah, that Allah says he is the light of the heavens and the earth, and that he guides to his light whom he pleases. The light is also been likened to be as if a brightly shinning star to some people.  This shows Allah and the bright shinning star is connected, that Allah calls it's his light, and says he is the light of the light. Hadiths say "O the light of the light"

 

And the other verses shows if Mohammad were to seek knowledge from Prophets of the past, it would not be any sort of Du'a. Confirmation of the truth and knowledge is a type of help, and so we can see seeking help from them is not shirk or prayer/du'a or anything like that. 

 

Also, the verses about idols not being able to respond no longer apply universally, because the Messengers obviously even though passed away are able to reply or the verse doesn't make sense to start off with.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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@ Layman,

 

I deleted the parts of your previous comment, because i did not object to most of them, nor do they have relevance to the topic of the OP, in terms of proofs used in thaqalayn to me. And the comments you made about humans being the names of Allah, and the comment about talking to humans being like talking to Allah, are so wrong, that they had to be highlighted. 

 

Anyway, again, your post does not really prove that humans are the names of Allah. At most you say that these humans emulate the meaning of the name more than other humans. But there is no proof other than this one faulty hadith from al-kafi that Allah would share anything with others, including His Names .. or even His House. You see, the House of Allah is not the House of anybody else. Even if people were commissioned to keep it clean, pure, or send messages from Allah. It does not mean Allah shares His Kaaba with anybody. It's His, even if it exists in physical symbolic form on earth.

 

Everybody knows that Ali is Ali .. He is high .. everybody knows that Mohamed is Adel .. he is Just. But that does not mean that Ali is al-Ali or al-Adel .. Those are Names just for Allah, and nobody can be compared to Allah, or share these with Allah. Why? because la sharikalah … He has not partners. His Names are His Names .. they don't belong or describe anybody else. The name of Ali is Ali .. not al-Ali … and the OP topic is that we don't ask of intercession through dua to others than Him .. so using the excuse of ahlulbayt being the names of Allah just won't do.

 

According to you this verse is talking about ahlulbayt .. that we call upon ahlulbayt and that they are the Names mentioned here:

 

Say, "Call upon Allah or call upon the Merciful. Whichever you call - to Him belong the best names." 17:110

 

You see, those two names above .. Allah and the Merciful .. al Rahman .. those are not ahlulbayt. that claim is wrong. Those are Names that are only for Him. So, the statement that the names of Allah are ahlulbayt is totally wrong, as Allah does not share His names and it doesn't make sense.

 

Hence, the above verse can not be used as evidence that we should make dua to others than Allah .. it is evidence for the contrary. Because the Names Allah and al Rahman are in direct and unique reference to the One God .. and not ahlulbayt.


The hadiths as well as Quran (if you read the third verse after) confirm it's about Ahlulbayt. They are the totality of the light in the universe, is them. The hadiths say "the likeness of his light" is Mohammad or Fatima or other hadiths say that is what the Imam has been given. We have another hadith that this is a parable to Ahlulbayt. The light is connected to Allah, that Allah says he is the light of the heavens and the earth, and that he guides to his light whom he pleases. The light is also been likened to be as if a brightly shinning star to some people.  This shows Allah and the bright shinning star is connected, that Allah calls it's his light, and says he is the light of the light. Hadiths say "O the light of the light"

 

And the other verses shows if Mohammad were to seek knowledge from Prophets of the past, it would not be any sort of Du'a. Confirmation of the truth and knowledge is a type of help, and so we can see seeking help from them is not shirk or prayer/du'a or anything like that. 

 

Also, the verses about idols not being able to respond no longer apply universally, because the Messengers obviously even though passed away are able to reply or the verse doesn't make sense to start off with.

 

can you show the proof that ahlulbayt are totality of light in the universe?That's your interpretation, and why do you keep on insisting to compare Allah with people? and share His Names, His Light, etc?

 

According to Quran seeking help from others than Allah in form of dua is shirk .. 

 

and there is maybe one or two verses that mention idols. the rest talk about "others than Allah" .. that is a sweeping generalization. Go ahead and make your duas to others than Allah, and use His Names for people all you want. But i warned you. and everybody else on this site, who might be reading this. That is the sunnah of the Prophets, who never did that.


but thankfully there are people who see it , who understand it , and don't make dua to others than Allah.. thank God .. may Allah empower them


furthermore @Layman

 

one more point as you addressed the issue of slavery .. or servitude to Allah ..

 

let me get it in straight.

Allah is the Name of Allah .. and Allah alone .. Allah actually means the God in arabic. It's al Lah … so that Name out of many is not ahlulbayt.

 

but ahlulbayt are slaves of Allah .. or abd Allah ..

 

can the slave be the Master? no! that is another proof that the ahlulbayt are not Allah, neither are the related or have any claim to the Names of Allah. They are not al-Lah .. or the-God -- they are not Gods .. and they do not even reflect the Name, as nobody can reflect a God … Did Moosa reflect Allah when He showed Himself in Sinai? obviously not.

 

The Names of Allah are for Him alone, and there being the word "al" or "the" makes it singular. Allah is One .. and His Justice, His Greatness (al Akbar), His everything can not be compared to any justice or greatness or highness (Ali) of any creature. 

We must totally and utterly understand that Allah's Names are for Him, they have no relation to anybody else. Just like Allah is the Hearer, and hears everything, while nobody else does so. Everybody else hears what Allah wants the to hear,


Again to the root of the issue:

 

#1 .. nowhere in the quran is there a single example of asking intercession of martyrs, only commands relating to the opposite for supplication

#2 .. no prophet or ahlulbayt member is documented to doing so, therefore making it outside the fold of the sunnah of ahlulbayt

 

those two above are the thaqalayn, and not our opinions and own philosophies

Edited by peace seeker II

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The 2nd verse after the parable of light, states "Men who neither...". Showing it's certain men. Our hadiths say it's Fatima, to show Fatima is included in that.  There is plenty of hadiths that state the light is Mohammad, Fatima or Imams. And the fact that God doesn't desire to keep anything away from Ahlulbayt but the uncleanness, showing that Allah doesn't desire to keep any of the light found in creation away from their souls.

 

The point is, this verse is pointing to a reality of the malakut of the universe. That reality, is the Imam is the light of the universe, Allah guides to his light whom he wants.

 

Just like Satan is the source of uncleanness and the means that God punishes people and leads them astray, the Imams are the source of pure blessings and key to his blessings.

 

We read regarding the verse:

 

064.008
YUSUFALI: Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Light which we have sent down. And Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.

 

 

064.008
YUSUFALI: Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Light which we have sent down. And Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.

According to our hadiths, in Al-kafi, the light is the light of the Imam and Imams.

وفي الكافي عن الكاظم عليه السلام الإِمامة هي النور وذلك قوله تعالى فآمنوا بالله ورسوله والنّور الذي انزلنا قال النور هو الإِمام.

وعن الباقر عليه السلام انّه سئل عن هذه الآية فقال النّور والله الأئمّة لنور الإِمام في قلوب المؤمنين انور من الشّمس المضيئة بالنّهار وهم الذين ينوّرون قلوب المؤمنين ويحجب الله نورهم عمّن يشاء فيظلم قلوبهم ويغشيهم بها والقمّي ما في معناه مع زيادة { وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ }.

From al-kafi, from Kathim (as)," the Imam is the light, and this is God's words "believe in God and his Messenger and the light brought down: , the light is the Imam."

And from Al-Baqir (as), he was asked about this verse, and he said the light I swear by Allah are the Imams, the light of the Imam in the of heart believer is more luminous then sun in the day and they are whom give light to the hearts of the believers, and Allah veils their light from whom he wants, so he darkens their hearts and veils them from it, and in Al-Qumi, it has addition "and Allah sees what you do"


So we can see Quran doesn't only say believing in the Imam is obligatory but that one has to believe in their light. This is even more important because we have to recognize them as the light of God brought down and the light of Al-Quran. 

They (i.e. the Imams) are, by God, the Light that He has sent down (64:8; 61:8; 39:69), and they, by God, are the Light of God in the heavens and the earth (24:36).- Imam Baqir (as), Al-kafi.

So the Quran descibes the believers whom do good as people whom follow the light brought down by God in Suratal Araf as well. So we can see it's a condition on those whom believe and do good. The Imams (as) also said that it refers to Ali (as) and the Imams (as) there.
 

We see that it's not sufficient to simply believe in Imams to believer as in their authority, but to believe in their light.

 

And I looked at tafsirs, and almost everyone explains Du'a to include the element of Worship. Without the the element of worship, it's not a prayer/du'a.

 

The same is true of how English defines the word "prayer".

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my God, you are saying that the "men" mentioned here are in reference to the niche and lamp description? how?

 

Men whom neither commerce nor trade (Literally: selling) diverts from the Remembrance of Allah, and keeping up the prayer, and the bringing of the Zakat, (Paying the poor-dues) fearing a Day when hearts and beholdings will be turning about, 24:37

 

without going into logical proof that the men here are in reference to people who mention those names, and in reference to the "men" for whom this parable is set forth .. the verse you are giving me mentions those men remember Allah, not that they are "like" Allah .. or that they are the lamps. guiding to His Light is not the same as being the Light ..

 

there is no evidence whatsoever that any other than Allah is 

 

 

 

 the light of the universe

 

saying that an imam is the light of the universe is just plain beyond description shirq. 

 

 

 

- Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth 24:35

 

and you say

 

- "the Imam is the light of the universe"

 

 

 

That makes your Imam Allah there! Or partners in being the light of the universe.

 

and your verse about light being sent down. yeah well being called Nour isn't a problem. or referring to the prophet as a light .. but not the Light .. al-Nour. Being sent down to earth means this light was on earth, and not in the entire universe. That is a proof itself against your statements .

 

also saying that the light of a believer is more than the light of the sun, does not mean he is the Light .. again no proof.

 

 

I will not continue arguing on this level much further. This is blatant insulting of Allah in my opinion, and total partnering of Him to His creatures. I have nothing to do with this, and it is getting worse and worse! 

 

really, if this was my forum, i would not allow this from happening.

 

it is better to believe that abu bakr is khalifa, than to think that ali is the light of heavens and earth.


or to think that the Names of Allah .. including the Name Allah obviously .. is humans ..

 

this is getting too much for me to handle .. i can't argue on that level on here anymore. 


either admit that the Names of Allah are not ahlulbayt, that Allah alone is the Light of the heavens and earth .. without partners, or keep on going, and explain to angels of death and grave and Allah in judgment day, why you follow traditions the prophet didn't do, nor described in quran. and tell them that the names of Allah are ahlulbayt, and that ahlulbayt are the light of heavens and earth, and see what will happen to you.

 

i will not do that in sha Allah .. each to his own

Edited by peace seeker II

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The totality of the light of the universe is not Allah, while is Allah is the light of totality of the light in the universe. Allah is above the light in the universe, but he is the light of the light. Ahlulbayt unite in them the whole of God's light in the universe. Allah (swt) own light that is really him, is however, above all lights, and no light is like it, including Ahlulbayt.

 

Ahlulbayt are not only the light of the universe, but as the hadith shows, it's they who give light in the hearts of believers.

 

What I find is that you reject hadiths of Ahulbayt very quickly.  Ahlulbayt are the interpreters of Quran and they make people realize it's flow, it's interpretation, it's meaning, the implicit messages of verses to verses. 

 

Not only is it very obtuse and turning a blind eye to divorce "Men who neither..." from the talk of God's light, to be a reference to other then that...but the fact it's confirmed by hadiths that the parable is about Ahlulbayt.

 

 

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And among the people are those who take other than Allah as equals. They love them as they love Allah . But those who believe are stronger in love for Allah . 2:165

 

 

This verse should be viewed as part of Quran in the light of other verses. The answer to the verses is given by the quran itself:

 

Shakir

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

 

 

Shakir

That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful. (42:23)

 

Loving Ahl albayat does not form any partner (to Allah swt), since we know for Loving Allah we follow Muhammad, and for following Muhammad saww we love ahl albayat.  This is quite obvious pattern in quran.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Salam

 

At any rate, all this talk of God's Names, light, or love of family of Mohammad is really irrelevant to the issue of whether it's permissible to call them.  But in my experience it seems most people who are in favor of seeking their help, do so with marifa of their Wilayah.

 

The permission I think we can see in the following verses together, they show a theme:

 

The Prophets were commanded to help each Messenger that comes verifying what is with them.

The Prophet was shown capability of asking the dead Messengers and receiving an answer, and this would not make sense to be shirk or a du'a, as both of these are not permitted in Islam.

Receiving an answer regarding the truth from all Messengers is a type of help regarding being steadfast on the truth. Having all past Messengers tell you, God never had another god to be worshiped, would be help of God.

The Messenger was told to seek guidance from their guidance.

Putting these two verses together, we see he had access to them, and so he would take guidance from their guidance and this was not simply from stories told in the Quran, but from their light, their path, their glorification of God, and their beauty.

In Suratal Anbiya, where Quran is reminded to be a "reminder", we are told to ask the family of the reminder when we don't know. It's also where Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub are emphasized to be Imams who guide by God's command, and that God revealed them good acts as well as keeping of Salah and giving zakat. The actions of have inward revelation and spirit, and in the same way, the family of the reminder has this Imammate. Now that that we have no physical access to them, do we have no way of receiving their guidance and knowledge, and asking them?  Seeking their help in a way is seeking their assistance on how to act. We should ask God for this help foremost, as it's his affair, but also ask Ahlul-Thikry as commanded by Quran. It doesn't make sense the verse was only meant for a limited time period in which we cannot perform and obey it.

Ibrahim's Imammate was AFTER Prophethood and Messengerhood, showing it's more then outward guidance of words, but guidance of the spiritual journey and accompanying people to their path.

The link to that Imammate and the verse to ask the family of the reminder and the link to the verse of Imams who guide by God's command and revealing good acts, reminds us there is inward spirit to good acts, stages to follow, and that we should ask the family of the reminder regarding that as well.

Access to the family of reminder doesn't make sense to be just regional and of the people that meet them physically, but all humans where ever they live are suppose to perform that.

God's command refers to a spiritual authority by virtue of their proximity to God over creation, by which they can reveal good acts revealed to their hearts and be callers to God by his permission.

 

Lastly, I advise to always ask Allah foremost for help of Imams, but out of etiquette, one should ask Imam as well. Therefore doing Du'a to Allah and asking him to guide us upon the straight path, goes hand to hand, with asking the family of the reminder. One prepares us fro the latter, and the latter happens by God's permission.

 

 

 

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The totality of the light of the universe is not Allah, while is Allah is the light of totality of the light in the universe. Allah is above the light in the universe, but he is the light of the light. Ahlulbayt unite in them the whole of God's light in the universe. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì own light that is really him, is however, above all lights, and no light is like it, including Ahlulbayt.

 

Ahlulbayt are not only the light of the universe, but as the hadith shows, it's they who give light in the hearts of believers.

 

What I find is that you reject hadiths of Ahulbayt very quickly.  Ahlulbayt are the interpreters of Quran and they make people realize it's flow, it's interpretation, it's meaning, the implicit messages of verses to verses. 

 

Not only is it very obtuse and turning a blind eye to divorce "Men who neither..." from the talk of God's light, to be a reference to other then that...but the fact it's confirmed by hadiths that the parable is about Ahlulbayt.

 

first of all quran before hadiths. .. if you tell me that Allah says that He is the light of the heavens and earth, then a hadith telling me otherwise won't count and can be thrown away. And your "Men who neither" has no logic connection to the parable of Allah in the first bit of 2 verses prior to this one. Even in the end of the verse talking about the lamp is talk about "people". The next verse 36 talks about people who exalt the Names of Allah .. not about lamps that exalt or mention Names obviously. Even if that Light of Allah is in mosques, the ones exalting are the people therein. I don't get how you can say that the "men" mentioned in 37 have anything to do with parable of Allah in 35. All this to claim that people can be compared to Allah? Or to group people with Allah to share Allah's parables? 

 

here is your contradiction in most obvious terms:

 

 

 

The totality of the light of the universe is not Allah

 

while Allah tells us

 

 

 

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth 24:35

 

If the light of heavens and the earth is not the totality of the light in the universe then what is? This is getting too much for me. I seek refuge in Allah from this, and from the accursed shaytaan

 

and then you go and say:

 

 

 

Ahlulbayt are not only the light of the universe, but as the hadith shows, it's they who give light in the hearts of believers.

 

who cares about what Quran shows right? follow hadiths that contradict it.

This verse should be viewed as part of Quran in the light of other verses. The answer to the verses is given by the quran itself:

 

Shakir

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

 

 

Shakir

That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful. (42:23)

 

Loving Ahl albayat does not form any partner (to Allah swt), since we know for Loving Allah we follow Muhammad, and for following Muhammad saww we love ahl albayat.  This is quite obvious pattern in quran.

 

Regards

 

The verse i showed does not show that we should not love anybody other than Allah, the point was that we should not love creatures like ahlulbayt the same way like we love Allah. That we must love Allah more. Allah and His creatures can not be compared, and our devotion and love for them should not compare either. Just because Ali was a great man, we do not compare the Greatness of Allah to Him .. or even say that Ali was al-Akbar

Salam

 

At any rate, all this talk of God's Names, light, or love of family of Mohammad is really irrelevant to the issue of whether it's permissible to call them.  But in my experience it seems most people who are in favor of seeking their help, do so with marifa of their Wilayah.

 

The permission I think we can see in the following verses together, they show a theme:

 

The Prophets were commanded to help each Messenger that comes verifying what is with them.

The Prophet was shown capability of asking the dead Messengers and receiving an answer, and this would not make sense to be shirk or a du'a, as both of these are not permitted in Islam.

Receiving an answer regarding the truth from all Messengers is a type of help regarding being steadfast on the truth. Having all past Messengers tell you, God never had another god to be worshiped, would be help of God.

The Messenger was told to seek guidance from their guidance.

Putting these two verses together, we see he had access to them, and so he would take guidance from their guidance and this was not simply from stories told in the Quran, but from their light, their path, their glorification of God, and their beauty.

In Suratal Anbiya, where Quran is reminded to be a "reminder", we are told to ask the family of the reminder when we don't know. It's also where Ibrahim, Isaac, and Yaqoub are emphasized to be Imams who guide by God's command, and that God revealed them good acts as well as keeping of Salah and giving zakat. The actions of have inward revelation and spirit, and in the same way, the family of the reminder has this Imammate. Now that that we have no physical access to them, do we have no way of receiving their guidance and knowledge, and asking them?  Seeking their help in a way is seeking their assistance on how to act. We should ask God for this help foremost, as it's his affair, but also ask Ahlul-Thikry as commanded by Quran. It doesn't make sense the verse was only meant for a limited time period in which we cannot perform and obey it.

Ibrahim's Imammate was AFTER Prophethood and Messengerhood, showing it's more then outward guidance of words, but guidance of the spiritual journey and accompanying people to their path.

The link to that Imammate and the verse to ask the family of the reminder and the link to the verse of Imams who guide by God's command and revealing good acts, reminds us there is inward spirit to good acts, stages to follow, and that we should ask the family of the reminder regarding that as well.

Access to the family of reminder doesn't make sense to be just regional and of the people that meet them physically, but all humans where ever they live are suppose to perform that.

God's command refers to a spiritual authority by virtue of their proximity to God over creation, by which they can reveal good acts revealed to their hearts and be callers to God by his permission.

 

Lastly, I advise to always ask Allah foremost for help of Imams, but out of etiquette, one should ask Imam as well. Therefore doing Du'a to Allah and asking him to guide us upon the straight path, goes hand to hand, with asking the family of the reminder. One prepares us fro the latter, and the latter happens by God's permission.

 

it's not true that it is irrelevant because people here on this thread used this argument as supposed proof that calling upon Allah directly is being like iblis, and that one must call upon Allah only through the Ahlulbayt, and that the verses telling us to call upon Allah with His Names, actually mean that we call upon ahlulbayt, because Ahlulbayt are the names of Allah.

 

such nonsense had to be refuted and i am surprised that i am the only one here who did that. While plenty of people are ready to answer questions on khilafa, politics, and mutah marriage. But when it comes to such blatant violations of Allah's Names and such sweeping horrible statements, nobody comes and says anything. 

perhaps you are right. most shias are ok with making supplications to others than Allah, even though there is not one documented weak or strong narrations showing any ahlulbayt member doing so. And even though there is no evidence of this in the Quran. People just twisting quran and bringing some outrageous hadiths and arguments like you did.

telling me that the ahlulbayt are the light of the universe (heavens and earth), that Allah isn't so .. and that they are the "source" of light in our hearts.

 

and not refuting the other claim of ahlulbayt being Allah .. and the usual talk about making dua to others than Allah .. really makes me wonder about shia destiny. I wonder what will happen to the majority of shia and shia movements with such false direction, which we have seen in christianity and most all religions in the world. They either go against prophets or start worshipping them. It's a classic. Join the club of mankind's shortfalls. Either iblis gets people with too little love for the prophet or too much. So few can keep it in the middle.

 

anyway, as i told you, i will not argue this much longer, as it's pointless. we have already established that there is no narration of anybody from ahlulbayt doing what OP asked for. And no evidence of it either from Quran. The rest is just mental acrobatics that fails, and falls on faces. I see no logic or not justified evidence that allows us to ignore the countless verses and hadiths that clearly show exactly how we should do duas, and how not to.

 

just more people's opinions, and indirect unrelated associations. Like proving that the temperature is 30 degrees by using a speedometer. Like the guy who wanted to prove dua issues by talking about prostration. And in the mean while ignoring the quran clear verses.

 

Allah is the Light of the heavens and earth, i will only make dua to him, i will only ask him for intercession if i want it, i will only relate His Names to Him .. there is one god, His Name is Allah, and nobody has anything to do with that Name, nor can anybody be compared with it, Allahu Akbar

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Just in case people see your half quote and don't remember what I posted:

The totality of the light of the universe is not Allah, while is Allah is the light of totality of the light in the universe. 

 

I've come to the view peace seeker you don't want to understand but argue.


Also, the thing about people is they are using their own definition of Du'a. We have hadiths for the Prophet that say "As for Du'a, it's the worship".

 

And tafsirs all interpreted it as prayer, as in act of worship. Not simply talking to the unseen spirits like all Muslims do in Salah when they salam to Prophet neither is defined as asking help or supernatural help which in Quran is all seen to happen, nor does it make prayer/du'a simply because people are dead and not alive.

 

You are giving meanings to words that the community that carried Quran didn't understand that way. This itself is an innovation.

 

Seeking to redefine words in Quran from what they were originally understood as.

 

 

 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Just in case people see your half quote and don't remember what I posted:

 

I've come to the view peace seeker you don't want to understand but argue.

 

really, 

 

well, even if you take away that sentence that doesn't make sense in it's full length, it's enough with these two ..

 

 

 

Ahlulbayt are not only the light of the universe, but as the hadith shows, it's they who give light in the hearts of believers.

 

and

 

 

 

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth 24:35

 

 

… tell me that this is not giving the ahlulbayt the status of Allah please!! in simple English this is what it is ..

...

 

interesting that the verse that says Allah is the light of heavens and earth is the same verse you use to claim that this light is actually ahlulbayt!! what can one say to this?? 

___

___

 

to me you and all who argue that humans are the light of heavens and earth .. that they are the source of light, that they are the Names of Allah, that they are the hearer of duas, that they are the ones we should call upon in need and supplicate to, that they are the ones we should ask for intercession for after they are martyred, etc etc … to me those are people who don't want to understand, and in my opinion they are heading towards a similar destiny like the the christians who see the same thing in Jesus, and Mary, and all the saints .. perhaps they will be resurrected together, unless Allah makes exceptions for them, or guides them before it's too late.

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Do you think the light of the heavens and the earth is equal to Allah? Or is Allah greater then it?

 

i believe that ..

 

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth 24:35

 

and i believe that you are wrong in saying that Ahlulbayt are the light of the heavens and the earth.

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Why don't you answer the question.

 

i answered it .. Allah is the light of heavens and earth .. your question was exactly that .. 

 

"Do you think the light of the heavens and the earth is equal to Allah?"

 

i answered it by proving it at the same time, that yes Allah is the Light of the heavens and earth!

This is how Allah describes himself in the Quran, and if this description is good enough for Allah, then i accept it. Even if you don't or the people like you. 

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i answered it .. Allah is the light of heavens and earth .. your question was exactly that .. 

 

"Do you think the light of the heavens and the earth is equal to Allah?"

 

i answered it by proving it at the same time, that yes Allah is the Light of the heavens and earth!

This is how Allah describes himself in the Quran, and if this description is good enough for Allah, then i accept it. Even if you don't or the people like you. 

No one is disputing what the verse says. Your not answering the question. Allah is the light of the light. But is the light of the heavens and the earth equal to Allah?

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and if you are going to tell me, but what about 

 

Or is Allah greater then it?

 

then i'll tell you its a second question that is irrelevant, because Allah describes Himself as the Light of the Heavens and Earth. So the first question is what counts, and refutes your horrible statements before.

 

i think you and i are wasting our time. Let us wait till judgment day in sha Allah


No one is disputing what the verse says. Your not answering the question. Allah is the light of the light. But is the light of the heavens and the earth equal to Allah?

 

equal is the mathematical term for "is" .. Allah "is" the light in heavens and earth .. Allah = the light of heavens and earth.

 

your statements before were in plain english saying that Ahlulbayt have this status, and that Allah does not. your way of twisting and turning this issue away from the most obvious is quite new to me. new in a bad way.


you are the one who says things like 

 

"the Imam is the light of the universe"

 

no maths involved here either. 

 

contradicting this 

 

Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth 24:35

 

.. as usual you won't admit it of course .. 

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and if you are going to tell me, but what about 

 

Or is Allah greater then it?

 

then i'll tell you its a second question that is irrelevant, because Allah describes Himself as the Light of the Heavens and Earth. So the first question is what counts, and refutes your horrible statements before.

 

i think you and i are wasting our time. Let us wait till judgment day in sha Allah

 

The light in the universe is obviously not equal to Allah and Allah is greater then it. What "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth" is explained in other words of Ahlulbayt "Allah is the light of every light". 

 

That light in the universe is limited. The same light in the universe is found in Ahlulbayt. All blessings in the universe (which are linked to Allah) is found in Ahlulbayt. 

 

Of course, the light belongs to Allah, it's his treasure, it's his glory, it's his praise. 

 

But that is not to deny the means of his light. Those higher in light shine brighter to those lesser in light. The source of the light is really Allah and he creates it. 

 

Allah (swt) could make everyone not take light from each other, but this is not what he wishes. And the Imam is here to pass on light to his followers, and increase them in light.

 

What about Saheefa Sajadiya which says the Imam is "Baha'al Alameen". Are you going to say Saheefa Sajadiya is book of Shirk now?

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The light in the universe is obviously not equal to Allah and Allah is greater then it. What "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth" is explained in other words of Ahlulbayt "Allah is the light of every light". 

 

That light in the universe is limited. The same light in the universe is found in Ahlulbayt. All blessings in the universe (which are linked to Allah) is found in Ahlulbayt. 

 

Of course, the light belongs to Allah, it's his treasure, it's his glory, it's his praise. 

 

But that is not to deny the means of his light. Those higher in light shine brighter to those lesser in light. The source of the light is really Allah and he creates it. 

 

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì could make everyone not take light from each other, but this is not what he wishes. And the Imam is here to pass on light to his followers, and increase them in light.

 

What about Saheefa Sajadiya which says the Imam is "Baha'al Alameen". Are you going to say Saheefa Sajadiya is book of Shirk now?

 

get me verses that talk about Allah being Bahaa al alameen then we can talk further. 

 

i will say it one more time, and that is it. you contradict the quran directly, with your opinions and false understanding of hadiths ..

 

1 - Allah is the light of the heavens and earth.

 

2 - you claim that humans are the light of heavens and earth.

 

that is wrong, and obviously you are not only partnering Allah here with humans, but you are replacing Allah with humans. I don't know which one is worse, but your judgment as well as mine is with Allah. 

 

 

wether the light in universe is limited or not, you don't know .. it's beside the point, because Allah describes himself like this. Maybe you think that you understand Allah better than He understands himself. That you have better descriptions for Him than His own .. you reject what He says, and replace it with your own opinions, justifying copy pasting out the Name of Allah, and entering Names of humans that you chose.

 

feel free to do that an deal with the consequences thereof. i won't!

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