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Belief In Intercession,compulsory Or Not?

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I would love to hear an explanation from those that believe every Prophet was supplicating through the Ahlulbayt, and that they are preexistent beings that were central to creation, as to why Allah doesn't make a single reference to any of this in the Qur'an.

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The Imam  would not be complaining to the Prophet  unless there was some wisdom or benefit in doing so.

 

 

 

 

Narrated to us Al-Sanady Bin Muhammad, from Yunus Bin Yaqoub, from Abdul Aala who said;

 
Abu Abdullah Imam Sadiq  said: "No Prophet has ever been a Prophet  at all except by recognizing Our rights, and by preferring Us over every one other than us."
 
[source: Basair al-Darajaat, Vol. 1, Chapter. 9, Hadees. 1]
 
Imam Jafar Sadiq  said:

“Once a Jew came to the Prophet (saww) and stood in front of him and was staring at him.

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, “O Jew, what do you need?”

The Jew replied, “Are you superior (the best) or Moosa bin Imran  with whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì spoke and the Torah was revealed to him and the stick, and split the sea for him and the clouds shadowed over him.”

The Prophet (saww) said, “I do not like that a person praises himself, but I say that,

“When Adam  committed the sin asked the repentance of his sin by saying, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to forgive me.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave him.”

“And when Noah  boarded the ship and feared that the ship would drown he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to save me from drowning.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì saved him.”

“And when Ibrahim  was thrown into the fire he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to save me from the fire.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì made the fire cold and safe for him.”

“And when Moosa  threw the stick and felt fear in his heart he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to strengthen me from this fear.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said to Moosa , “Do not fear, for you are higher”

“O Jew, If Moosa  would get to me and does not believe in me (saww) and in my Prophet hood then his faith and his Prophet hood would be of no use (benefit) to him.”

“O Jew, and when the Mehdi (atfs) from my progeny comes out, Esa bin Maryam  will descend and will help Him (atfs) and will keep Him (atfs) ahead and will be pray behind Him (atfs).”

[source: Amali – Sheikh Saduq Majalis.39 Hadees.4]

 

Jabir bin Yazid Joafi asked Imam Jafar Sadiq  the interpretation of the verse "Verily among his Shia is Ibrahim". 
 
Imam Sadiq  replied saying:
"Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì created Ibrahim and removed the veil from his eyes. Ibrahim  looked and saw a light (Noor) next to the throne and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì what is this light?" He was told that this is the light of Muhammad (saww) the purest of my creations. Then Ibrahim  saw a light next to that light (of Muhammad) and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì what is this light?" He was told that this is the light of Ali bin Abi Talib  helper of my religion. Then Ibrahim  saw 3 more lights next to these 2 lights (of Muhammad and Ali) and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and what are these lights?". He was told that this is the light of Fatima (sa) whose lovers are weaned from fire (of hell) and the light of her sons Hasan (as) and Husain (as). Ibrahim (as) then said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì I see 9 lights". He was told that these are the Imams  from the sons of Ali (as) and Fatima (sa). 
 
Then Ibrahim  said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì by the right of these Five, inform me about these 9 lights".  He was told that the first is Ali bin Husain (as) and then his son Muhammad (as) and then his son Jafar (as) and then his son Moosa (as) and then his son Ali (as) and then his son Muhammad (as) and then his son Ali (as) and then his son Hasan and then his son Qaim (atfs).
 
Then Ibrahim  said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and my Master I see lights which are countless and none knows the count but You. He was told that these are the Shias of Amir Al Momineen Ali bin Abi Talib (as). Then Ibrahim (as) said, "By what are the Shias known?" Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said, "By 51 rakat Prayers, saying 'BisMillah' Aloud, performing the Qunoot before Ruku and wearing rings on the right hand.
 
Then Ibrahim  said, "O Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, make me from among the Shia of Amir Al Momineen". Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì gave the news of this in his book and said "Verily among his Shia is Ibrahim".
 
Source: Tawil Al Ayat Vol.2 Pg.495 (Sura-e-Saffat), Mustadrak Vol.4 Pg.187, Bihar Al Anwar Vol.36 Pg.151, Al Fazail Pg. 158

 

(Arabic wording including in link)

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-and-prophets

 

I don't know why you are so fixated on martyrs specifically, but like I said, the Imams have no need to seek the intercession of any martyr before Allah besides Prophet Muhammad because it is they who intercede for all the prophets, all the saints, all the martyrs and all the believers. And all the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad received their position due to the intercession of the Holy Prophet and Ahlul Bayt.

 

Now if you are talking about intercession in the form of asking for daily or conventional needs (eg. "please give me this job" "please help my wife conceive" "please pray for me so that my illness is cured etc.), this isn't as relevant to the Imams or the Prophets as it is for the general community of believers, but it's clear the Imams endorsed seeking intercession through them and through the Holy Prophet for expedient responses to such issues.

Salam, 

Nice but I ask one thing to be clarified.

Did all those Prophets already knew about the existence of the Fourteen Infallibles a.s.?

I would love to hear an explanation from those that believe every Prophet was supplicating through the Ahlulbayt, and that they are preexistent beings that were central to creation, as to why Allah doesn't make a single reference to any of this in the Qur'an.

Salam,

That's right but we ain't Quranites.

The hadith of Adam a.s. who saw the name of Muhammad s,a,w, on the Arsh is known however in Shia and Sunni traditions.

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wasalaam,

 

The commands of Allah change over time, that's why we don't have to observe sabath anymore for instance.

 

But anyway, prostration does not clearly refer to intercession. And Allah has no partners in prayers to Him. Our prayers to Him should always be direct and only to Him. Even if we have an imam of a prayer for instance. And even if we ask others to pray for us. Still the prayer is directly to Allah .. Asking for intercession is not a prayer nor a prostration.

Yes, but sabath is not in the Qur'an, while the story of Adam a.s. and Iblis l.a. is. 

 

You don't have to ask for intermediary, when you acknowledge it as the vicegerent of Allah swt, you acknowledge Allah swt through the intermediary. 

 

Sheikh al-Waeli (may Allah be pleased with him) story is a proof for that.

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The Imam would not be complaining to the Prophet unless there was some wisdom or benefit in doing so.

Narrated to us Al-Sanady Bin Muhammad, from Yunus Bin Yaqoub, from Abdul Aala who said;

Abu Abdullah Imam Sadiq said: "No Prophet has ever been a Prophet at all except by recognizing Our rights, and by preferring Us over every one other than us."

[source: Basair al-Darajaat, Vol. 1, Chapter. 9, Hadees. 1]

Imam Jafar Sadiq said:

“Once a Jew came to the Prophet (saww) and stood in front of him and was staring at him.

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, “O Jew, what do you need?”

The Jew replied, “Are you superior (the best) or Moosa bin Imran with whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì spoke and the Torah was revealed to him and the stick, and split the sea for him and the clouds shadowed over him.”

The Prophet (saww) said, “I do not like that a person praises himself, but I say that,

“When Adam committed the sin asked the repentance of his sin by saying, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad to forgive me.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave him.”

“And when Noah boarded the ship and feared that the ship would drown he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad to save me from drowning.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì saved him.”

“And when Ibrahim was thrown into the fire he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad to save me from the fire.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì made the fire cold and safe for him.”

“And when Moosa threw the stick and felt fear in his heart he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad to strengthen me from this fear.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said to Moosa , “Do not fear, for you are higher”

“O Jew, If Moosa would get to me and does not believe in me (saww) and in my Prophet hood then his faith and his Prophet hood would be of no use (benefit) to him.”

“O Jew, and when the Mehdi (atfs) from my progeny comes out, Esa bin Maryam will descend and will help Him (atfs) and will keep Him (atfs) ahead and will be pray behind Him (atfs).”

[source: Amali – Sheikh Saduq Majalis.39 Hadees.4]

Jabir bin Yazid Joafi asked Imam Jafar Sadiq the interpretation of the verse "Verily among his Shia is Ibrahim".

Imam Sadiq replied saying:

"Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì created Ibrahim and removed the veil from his eyes. Ibrahim looked and saw a light (Noor) next to the throne and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì what is this light?" He was told that this is the light of Muhammad (saww) the purest of my creations. Then Ibrahim saw a light next to that light (of Muhammad) and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì what is this light?" He was told that this is the light of Ali bin Abi Talib helper of my religion. Then Ibrahim saw 3 more lights next to these 2 lights (of Muhammad and Ali) and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and what are these lights?". He was told that this is the light of Fatima (sa) whose lovers are weaned from fire (of hell) and the light of her sons Hasan (as) and Husain (as). Ibrahim (as) then said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì I see 9 lights". He was told that these are the Imams from the sons of Ali (as) and Fatima (sa).

Then Ibrahim said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì by the right of these Five, inform me about these 9 lights". He was told that the first is Ali bin Husain (as) and then his son Muhammad (as) and then his son Jafar (as) and then his son Moosa (as) and then his son Ali (as) and then his son Muhammad (as) and then his son Ali (as) and then his son Hasan and then his son Qaim (atfs).

Then Ibrahim said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and my Master I see lights which are countless and none knows the count but You. He was told that these are the Shias of Amir Al Momineen Ali bin Abi Talib (as). Then Ibrahim (as) said, "By what are the Shias known?" Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said, "By 51 rakat Prayers, saying 'BisMillah' Aloud, performing the Qunoot before Ruku and wearing rings on the right hand.

Then Ibrahim said, "O Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, make me from among the Shia of Amir Al Momineen". Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì gave the news of this in his book and said "Verily among his Shia is Ibrahim".

Source: Tawil Al Ayat Vol.2 Pg.495 (Sura-e-Saffat), Mustadrak Vol.4 Pg.187, Bihar Al Anwar Vol.36 Pg.151, Al Fazail Pg. 158

(Arabic wording including in link)

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-and-prophets

I don't know why you are so fixated on martyrs specifically, but like I said, the Imams have no need to seek the intercession of any martyr before Allah besides Prophet Muhammad because it is they who intercede for all the prophets, all the saints, all the martyrs and all the believers. And all the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad received their position due to the intercession of the Holy Prophet and Ahlul Bayt.

Now if you are talking about intercession in the form of asking for daily or conventional needs (eg. "please give me this job" "please help my wife conceive" "please pray for me so that my illness is cured etc.), this isn't as relevant to the Imams or the Prophets as it is for the general community of believers, but it's clear the Imams endorsed seeking intercession through them and through the Holy Prophet for expedient responses to such issues.

The point is that the imams who can get intercession of the prophet didn't ask for intercession of their grandfather after he passed away too. According to you they need his intercession .. And if Moses and all other prophets also need the intercession, then why is there no evidence of them asking for it spiritually ?

Why is there no instant of anybody ever asking for intercession in the Quran , except immediate people who are physically present?

You guys ask of martyrs for help. Unless you can prove that the prophets or imams did the same, you are following an innovation. The prophet is an "example" for us to follow.

Yes, but sabath is not in the Qur'an, while the story of Adam a.s. and Iblis l.a. is.

You don't have to ask for intermediary, when you acknowledge it as the vicegerent of Allah swt, you acknowledge Allah swt through the intermediary.

Sheikh al-Waeli (may Allah be pleased with him) story is a proof for that.

The sabbath is mentioned in the Quran many times. I suggest you go to a Quran search engine and type in "sabbath" and you'll see. Laws change and that's a fact.

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I would love to hear an explanation from those that believe every Prophet was supplicating through the Ahlulbayt, and that they are preexistent beings that were central to creation, as to why Allah doesn't make a single reference to any of this in the Qur'an.

when did this happen?

 

And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware."

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Salam, 

Salam,

That's right but we ain't Quranites.

The hadith of Adam a.s. who saw the name of Muhammad s,a,w, on the Arsh is known however in Shia and Sunni traditions.

Of course, but not being Quranists means we take the details of our religion from the hadiths. There is a bit of a problem though when most of our theology is taken from the hadiths, and the Quran needs to be radically reinterpreted in that light.

Also, the fact that something is known in both Sunni and Shia traditions is not in itself necessarily an indication of authenticity. After all, a Shia hadith fabricator could just have taken it off the Sunnis, where it may itself have been fabricated.

Nabiy Sulayman (as) asked the jinn for help to bring the throne of belqis,couldn't he ask God?Why did he seek help from other other than Allah?

Asking someone in this world is not the same as supplicating to someone in another world.

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The jinns are not quite from our world at least Qur'an says that we cannot see them but they see us.

Tawassul is not a supplication. It's asking for dua to get the supplication to Allah accepted. It's like asking for a favor because Allah will accept from certain souls and from some not at all.It's a medium to seek Allahs nearness like there are thousands of ways of wasila to seek Allahs nearness.

Who said the Imams or prophets are in another world in the sense of being disconnected to us? And is it allowed to ask Imam Mahdi to pray for us in your opinion?

May Allah hasten his appearance.

Edited by mina313

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Of course, but not being Quranists means we take the details of our religion from the hadiths. There is a bit of a problem though when most of our theology is taken from the hadiths, and the Quran needs to be radically reinterpreted in that light.

Also, the fact that something is known in both Sunni and Shia traditions is not in itself necessarily an indication of authenticity. After all, a Shia hadith fabricator could just have taken it off the Sunnis, where it may itself have been fabricated.

Asking someone in this world is not the same as supplicating to someone in another world.

Salam, 

That's right but when we take only Quran there will be no Sunni or Shia. Only an incomplete and interpretationless perception of Quran will remain. 

The Prophet s.a.w. was the living Quran, knew the right interpretations of the concepts of the Quran, the background of its verses and the stories around it. Therefore we are depending on the oral narrations of the Prophet s.a.w. and imams a.s. as well. 

The rest is just an issue that starts with reason and ends after making a balance of all aspects of the matter you know and took in consideration. 

Let's call it personal beliefs.

Edited by Iskandarovich

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I would love to hear an explanation from those that believe every Prophet was supplicating through the Ahlulbayt, and that they are preexistent beings that were central to creation, as to why Allah doesn't make a single reference to any of this in the Qur'an.

 

It is mentioned in the Qur'an.

 

Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Light which we have sent down. And Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do. --Surah 64:8

 

Traditions reflect that the Light mentioned herein connotes the Infallible Imams (as), since they are the embodiments of the Holy Qur’an. Imam Baqir (as) is reported as saying that they are those who shed light on the believers’ hearts. Belief is valuable when it encompasses belief in God Almighty, His Messengers, and the Scripture and it is accompanied by action.

 

http://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-18/surah-al-taghabun-chapter-64

 

 

Abu Khalid al-Kabuli who has said the following. 

"I asked (Imam) abu Ja‘far (as) about the meaning of the words of Allah, the Majestic, the Gracious, ‘Believe, therefore, in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Light (Noor) which we have sent down' [64:8]

"O abu Khalid, I swear by Allah, it is the Imams from the family of the Holy Prophet (saww) up to the Day of judgment who are called light in the above verse. They, I swear by Allah, are the light of Allah whom He sent down. It is they, I swear by Allah, who are the light of Allah in the heavens and in the earth. O abu Khalid, I swear by Allah, that the light of the (Imams) in the hearts of the true believers is more bright than the light of the sun in the midday. They, I swear by Allah, give light to the hearts of the true believers and Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, may block such light from reaching the hearts of whoever He may will, thus their hearts remain dark. O abu Khalid, no one would believe in our Divine authority except that Allah will cleanse his heart. Allah will not cleanse the heart of a person until he or she will acknowledge our Divine authority and live in peace with us. When one lives in peace with us Allah will safeguard him against the severity of the Day of recockning and grant him security against the great terror on the Day of Judgment"

 

--Source: Al-Kaafi Vol.1 Pg.194

 

"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." --Surah 7:157

 

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn Mirdas who has said that Saffron ibn Yahya and al-Hassan ibn Mahbub have narrated from abu Ayyub from abu Khalid al-Kabuli who has said that he asked Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah in the following: "Those who believe in him, honor and help him, and follow the light which is sent down to him, will have everlasting happiness." (7:157)

 

The Imams (a.s.) said, "O abu Khalid, I swear by Allah that it is the Imams from the family of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) up to the Day of judgment who are called light in the above verse. They, I swear by Allah, are the light of Allah whom He sent down. It is they, I swear by Allah, who are the light of Allah in the heavens and in the earth. O abu Khalid, I swear by Allah, that the light of the Imams (a.s.) in the hearts of the true believers is more bright than the light of the sun in the midday. They, I swear by Allah, give light to the hearts of the true believers and Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, may block such light from reaching the hearts of whoever He may will, thus their hearts remain dark. O abu Khalid, no one would believe in our Divine authority except that Allah will cleanse his heart. Allah will not cleanse the heart of a person until he or she will acknowledge our Divine authority and live in peace with us. When one lives in peace with us Allah will safe guard him against the severity of the day of recockning and grant him security against the great terror on the Day of Judgment"

 

--Al-Kafi, Book 1, Chapter 13, Hadith 1

 

If you're asking for every single detail to be explained by the Qur'an on the issue of cosmogony, I wonder why you're not so adamant about the Qur'an having to be more explicit in its terms when discussing issues like law. It's strange that when it concerns an issue of law or shariah, these people who are all about "what the Qur'an says" have no problem admitting the Qur'an's inexplicitness and consulting the hadith and opinions of scholars both past and present, but when it comes to an issue of a more explicit and detailed origin of the cosmos or the hierarchy of the cosmos, suddenly the Qur'an needs to divulge every single detail that can be divulged.

 

First of all, the Qur'an has apparent (zahir) and inner or hidden meanings (batin). As we know, the Imam and the Prophet are the best sources to consult to understand both. And as the Prophet has said, he has left us two weighty things which will never separate, the Qur'an and his Ahlul Bayt, and has warned us to be careful how we treat them.

 

 

It has been narrated to us Al-Abbas Bin Ma’rouf, from Hamaad Bin Isa, from Hareez, from Abu Baseer who has said:
 
Abu Ja’far (as) said: "Ali (as) was asked about the knowledge of the Prophet (saww)."
 
He (as) said, "Knowledge of the Prophet (saww) is knowledge of all of the Prophets (as) and knowledge of what has happened and knowledge of what will be happening up to the Establishment of the Hour". Then said: "By the One in Whose Hand is My soul,
I am aware of the knowledge of the Prophet, and know what has happened and what will be happening between now and the Establishment of the Hour".
 
--Basaair  Al - Darajaat, Vol 3, Chapter 6, Hadees 2
 
Imam Baqir says: The Qur'an has a batn (inward or esoteric aspect) and that batn (in turn) has a batn. And it has 'a zahr (outward or exoteric aspect) and the zahr has a zahr ... and there is nothing farther from the intellect of men than tafsir of the Qur'an. The beginning of an ayah may concern something and its end some other thing, and it is continuous speech that is susceptible to different interpretations.
 
--Biharul Anwar, vo1.92, p.95
 

It has been narrated to us Muhammad Bin Abdul Jabbar, from Mansour Bin Yunus, from Hamaad Al-Haam who said:

Abu Abdullah(as) said: We(as), by Allah(swt), know what is in the Heavens and what is in the Earth, and what is in the Paradise, and what is in the Fire, and what is between that.

 

He said, I looked up at Imam(as) with alertness.

 

Imam(as) said: ‘O Hamaad, that is in the Book of Allah (swt). Then he recited this Verse "And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these - and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." [16:89]. It is from the Book of Allah (swt) in which is the explanation of everything.

--Basaair  Al - Darajaat, Vol 3, Chapter 6, Hadees 4
 
The Qur'an doesn't need to explicitly tell us every detail and it is the Imams from the Progeny of Muhammad who explain those details which the Qur'an about which the Qur'an is not explicit and obvious in its words.
 

 

The point is that the imams who can get intercession of the prophet didn't ask for intercession of their grandfather after he passed away too. According to you they need his intercession .. And if Moses and all other prophets also need the intercession, then why is there no evidence of them asking for it spiritually ?

 

Again, where are you getting the impression that they didn't? If they recommended to their followers to seek the intercession of the Prophet and even provided supplications to them for the purpose of seeking his intercession and acknowledged their subordination to the Prophet, the logical conclusion is that they did. Also, earning the intercession of the Prophet doesn't necessarily require asking him directly for it, as whenever you say "peace be upon him" after mentioning his name, it helps you towards earning his intercession. We know of course the Imams said that.
 
We know they permitted speaking directly to the Prophet, we know they spoke directly to the Prophet better than any of us, we know they told us to seek his intercession by every means available from giving salawat, by doing good deeds and asking him for his prayers for forgiveness of our sins, they provided many du'as for this purpose. Their very ismah and immunity from sin, was given to them by way of the Prophet interceding for them (see the Hadith of the Cloak) and by way of the unqiue spiritual connection to him which they had from birth. The intercession of the Prophet for them is there, you're just being autistic about it at this point.
 
 

Why is there no instant of anybody ever asking for intercession in the Quran , except immediate people who are physically present?

 

Thus did We make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the Hour of Judgment. Behold, they dispute among themselves as to their affair. (Some) said, "Construct a building over them": Their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said, "Let us surely build a place of worship over them."

--Surah 18:21

 

While this verse doesn't state anything about asking anyone whose dead, it makes clear that the graves of the dead awliya and prophets are a source of barakah worth building masjid over. The Qur'an doesn't really need to say anymore when the hadith have already dealt with the issue in much further detail, but

 

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

--Surah 2:154

 

If it's permissible to ask a holy one for their intercession when they live, when they die in the way of Allah, it shouldn't make any difference, you can ask of them what you would ask of them when they were living and physically present.

 

Of course, but not being Quranists means we take the details of our religion from the hadiths. There is a bit of a problem though when most of our theology is taken from the hadiths, and the Quran needs to be radically reinterpreted in that light.

 

I don't see what the problem is exactly, especially when all the Imams do is make clear what is hidden within the Qur'an itself. I suppose asking why God hid the meaning in the first place is a legitimate question, but I don't think we can really know all the reasons why God didn't just make the Qur'an 40,000 pages of exposition. But we can trust, if we have faith, that the form in which we have been given the Qur'an by the Holy Prophet is the best form for our circumstances.

 

My personal opinion is that God purposely did obscured the references to much of these theological matters and perhaps many more we still remain unaware of as a trial on the one hand and for the Qur'an's own protection on the other. The Qur'an in its present form is quite accessible to almost anybody and although most Muslims do not understand or know much of its real meanings, it still provides inspiration and hope for many people just by its most general meanings. Had it been too long or too filled with esoteric expositions, it might not have reached as wide an audience as it has today and It's important to remember also that the enemies of Ahlul Bayt have generally held most of the power in this world. A lot of these things were taught by the Imams in secret during their time for a reason and it was this culture of secrecy that was exploited by even the ghulat.

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he is not asking for intercession ya Sheikha

 

Listen, If you have your own definition of tawassul, fine. But don't impose it upon us. We follow the conventional definition of tawassul. Basically, saying by the right of ... < This formulation is specific for tawassul. 

 I adjure You by the right of this grave and the one who is buried therein, to bring forth for me that which is approved by You and Your Prophet<

 

Here imam Hussain put the right of the prophet between him and Allah and made that right a way, a wasila to get his supplication accepted or to re-enforce it.

This is tawassul in its most clear way, it is the tawassul we are talking about and it is the tawassul in Shia Du'a. 

 

Intercession is the english word that is used in replacement  of tawassul, shafa'ah and istigatha. I was trying to explain to you the difference and the evidence for each one of them. 

 

serially people, juts read few books before arguing while in ignorance.

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Chaotic .. The definition of wasila is the same in every single translation on earth, so your "coined" interpretation won't do.

Jinn .. Ok so still not a single instant where a prophet or imam asked for intercession from a martyr. And neither in the Quran. That should rest this case. But of course you can find Hadiths that contradict the Quran and the actual sunnah of ahl bayt and claim it as true. Buyer know what happens to people who go against and beyond the sunnah of Allah and His prophet knowingly ..

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Chaotic .. The definition of wasila is the same in every single translation on earth, so your "coined" interpretation won't do.

The translations of the Qur'an are not the appropiate measure for understanding the original arabic words and their meanings.Specially in this case we see that the translation is not sufficient.

What I tried to say with the example with Nabiy Sulayman (as) is that he was seeking help from Allah through a wasila,in this case a jinn. He didn't ask Allah 'directly' as you say we all should do.

The narration which CM posted is stating a clear case of tawassul, the Imam asks Allah by the right of the prophet to accept the dua.

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The translations of the Qur'an are not the appropiate measure for understanding the original arabic words and their meanings.Specially in this case we see that the translation is not sufficient.

What I tried to say with the example with Nabiy Sulayman (as) is that he was seeking help from Allah through a wasila,in this case a jinn. He didn't ask Allah 'directly' as you say we all should do.

The narration which CM posted is stating a clear case of tawassul, the Imam asks Allah by the right of the prophet to accept the dua.

The word wasila is not intercession. It means a means to an end .. That's the way this word is understood by the whole world. If the whole world understands the word waseela the same way, then who are we to change it? Every translation on earth translates 17:57 the same way. It's unanimous. So there should be no discussion here.

And what concerned the jinn and Sulaiman a.s .. He did not ask the jinn for intercession, and talking to the jinn is like talking to the bird. They were physically present for Sayidna Sulaiman . Just like humans talking to each other . It wasn't a martyred jinn either.

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 Ok so still not a single instant where a prophet or imam asked for intercession from a martyr.

 

They don't need to ask intercession from the martyrs though. The martyrs ask intercession from them. I think your problem is that you think that we are expected to perfectly imitate the Ahlul Bayt in every single respect and therefore if they didn't do something, we shouldn't. That's not how it works. There are certain actions incumbent on us or which are necessary for us that aren't necessary for Ahlul Bayt and there are some things that Ahlul Bayt are beholden to that aren't expected of us. The most obvious case would be the Prophet having more than four wives. This is his Sunnah, but we aren't expected to imitate it.

 

The Internal principles of the Sunnah are more important than the External actions, which emanate from these principles. If the Prophet does something, it doesn't necessarily mean we must imitate it or even that we are capable of imitating it since the action may only be possible for someone or required by Allah of someone of the Prophet's unique and/or exclusive station. The Imams therefore do not need the intercession of anyone but the Prophet, because they are the greatest of the purified after him. The reason we seek the intercession of the martyrs, based on the recommendations and instructions of the Imams and the Prophet, is because we are of a lower station and have greater need for it. What need do the Imams have to ask the martyrs lower in station to them for their intercession? Intercession implies subservience of the recipient and the Imams are subservient to no one but God and the Prophet.

 

The Imams told us to seek the intercession of God's holy ones, whether they asked for the intercession themselves from a particular holy figure in question is not relevant. The Imams did not ask Jesus (as) for intercession, for example, but Jesus is one of God's prophets and friends, therefore it is permissible to ask for his intercession.

 

And neither in the Quran.

 

The Qur'an says the pure martyrs are alive. Whatever would be permissible to ask of them if they were alive, we can ask of them now. Because it doesn't make any difference whatsoever. The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. You're just being stubborn.

 

But of course you can find Hadiths that contradict the Quran and the actual sunnah of ahl bayt and claim it as true.

 

None of the hadiths I posted contradict the Qur'an.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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They don't need to ask intercession from the martyrs though. The martyrs ask intercession from them. I think your problem is that you think that we are expected to perfectly imitate the Ahlul Bayt in every single respect and therefore if they didn't do something, we shouldn't. That's not how it works. There are certain actions incumbent on us or which are necessary for us that aren't necessary for Ahlul Bayt and there are some things that Ahlul Bayt are beholden to that aren't expected of us. The most obvious case would be the Prophet having more than four wives. This is his Sunnah, but we aren't expected to imitate it.

The problem though is that the Imams could have made use of the intercession of the Prophet, since he has a greater station, but they didn't. They could even have just done it as a way of teaching us, since surely nobody would argue there is any harm in that, but again, they didn't.

 

The Qur'an says the pure martyrs are alive. Whatever would be permissible to ask of them if they were alive, we can ask of them now. Because it doesn't make any difference whatsoever. The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. You're just being stubborn.

The Quran does not support what you say. Nowhere does it say that martyrs can hear us. Nowhere does it say that they supplicate for us. However, the Quran is clear on not calling on other than Allah, clearly meaning in the form of an invocation to a deity, rather than 'asking a doctor' as some simpletons insist on comparing it to.

None of the hadiths I posted contradict the Qur'an.

Are there any hadiths that you would consider to contradict the Qur'an?

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They don't need to ask intercession from the martyrs though. The martyrs ask intercession from them. I think your problem is that you think that we are expected to perfectly imitate the Ahlul Bayt in every single respect and therefore if they didn't do something, we shouldn't. That's not how it works. There are certain actions incumbent on us or which are necessary for us that aren't necessary for Ahlul Bayt and there are some things that Ahlul Bayt are beholden to that aren't expected of us. The most obvious case would be the Prophet having more than four wives. This is his Sunnah, but we aren't expected to imitate it.

 

The Internal principles of the Sunnah are more important than the External actions, which emanate from these principles. If the Prophet does something, it doesn't necessarily mean we must imitate it or even that we are capable of imitating it since the action may only be possible for someone or required by Allah of someone of the Prophet's unique and/or exclusive station. The Imams therefore do not need the intercession of anyone but the Prophet, because they are the greatest of the purified after him. The reason we seek the intercession of the martyrs, based on the recommendations and instructions of the Imams and the Prophet, is because we are of a lower station and have greater need for it. What need do the Imams have to ask the martyrs lower in station to them for their intercession? Intercession implies subservience of the recipient and the Imams are subservient to no one but God and the Prophet.

 

The Imams told us to seek the intercession of God's holy ones, whether they asked for the intercession themselves from a particular holy figure in question is not relevant. The Imams did not ask Jesus (as) for intercession, for example, but Jesus is one of God's prophets and friends, therefore it is permissible to ask for his intercession.

 

 

The Qur'an says the pure martyrs are alive. Whatever would be permissible to ask of them if they were alive, we can ask of them now. Because it doesn't make any difference whatsoever. The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. You're just being stubborn.

 

 

None of the hadiths I posted contradict the Qur'an.

 

how about if you are the one being stubborn?

 

again, you didn't answer something based on your own comment. You said all prophets and imams get intercession from prophet Mohamed. That lower ranked ask from higher ranks. Then why didn't lower ranked prophets and imams ask of higher ranked then? The Imams also didn't marry more than 4 permanent wives, and follow the same standards as all of us, namely the sunnah of Allah and His prophet.

 

and any hadith that claims we should ask martyrs for intercession contradicts the quran and the documented sunnah of the prophet.

 

H 196, Ch. 21, h 9

It is narrated from him from his father from Isma’il ibn Marrar from Yunus from Dawud ibn Farqad from Mu‘alla ibn Khunays who has said the following.

"I asked Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.),

...

 

The Imam replied, "One must study to find out which one (Hadith) agrees with the laws of the Quran and the Sunnah and it does not agree with the laws of the those who oppose us. Such Hadith must be accepted and the one that disagree with the laws of the Quran and the Sunnah and coincides the masses must be disregarded."

 

...

 

you see .. any hadith that goes against the sunnah of the Prophet and the ahlul bayt must be disregarded.

 

the quran never once tells us to seek intercession from martyrs. not once! the quran is very clear about directly asking from Allah everything for this matter.

 

Of course you keep ignoring that there is not a single example of a prophet and imams asking intercession of a martyred person.

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You said all prophets and imams get intercession from prophet Mohamed. That lower ranked ask from higher ranks. Then why didn't lower ranked prophets and imams ask of higher ranked then?

 

The problem with your line of thinking is that you are assuming that intercession MUST be asked for directly from the higher ranked. It doesn't. Yes, we can ask the Prophet directly as though he were standing in front of us, but we don't necessarily have to seek it that way. There are three ways to seek the intercession of the Prophet (pbuh).

 

1. Asking the Prophet for his intercession before God on your behalf.

2. Asking God to allow the Prophet to intercede on your behalf and forgive you by the virtue of His Prophet.

3. Performing good deeds according to the shariah with the intention of seeking the intercession of the Prophet before God on your behalf.

 

One has to seek the intercession of the Prophet, but one doesn't HAVE to actually ask him directly for it. It just isn't haram to do it in that manner and we know this by the fact that the Imams taught us how to ask the Prophet for his intercession.

 

But whether the Imams actually said "Oh, Holy Prophet, I ask you for your intercession," doesn't matter because we know they sought the Prophet's intercession by some means and were already blessed by virtue of their relationship with God's Prophet coming out of the womb. The point is that if they said "Oh, Holy Prophet, I ask you for your intercession," while not being near his grave, they wouldn't be contradicting themselves. The same principle would apply to the Imams who sought intercession of the higher ranking Imams (though I think there's some debate here about whether or not all the 12 Imams are essentially equal while still being subordinate to the God and the Prophet). The Imams don't need to ask the Prophet for his intercession directly, but there's no doubt they were the greatest benefactors of it. Again, the point is if they or we sought the intercession in the manner just mentioned, there'd be no haram in the action, and even in some situations it may be recommended. The second point I made is that if the action brings benefit, isn't haram and if the Imams are on record as having spoken directly to the Prophet and having taught their followers how to ask for the Prophet's intercession both by way of speaking to him directly or asking God while bringing him to mind, it is illogical to assume there wasn't any point where they may have asked for the Prophet's aid with God's permission. There are probably more hadith that make the matter explicit out there that just aren't available for me to post, but even without them on hand, basic logic makes things clear.

 

 

 

and any hadith that claims we should ask martyrs for intercession contradicts the quran and the documented sunnah of the prophet.

 

Because you say so?

 

 

 

you see .. any hadith that goes against the sunnah of the Prophet and the ahlul bayt must be disregarded.

 

Anything that contradicts the principles of the Sunnah/Habit. The Prophet didn't use computers to communicate, but they aren't haram because they don't contradict the principles of his habit. An action can contradict the external actions of the Prophet but still be rooted in the same exalted principles. We don't need to imitate the Prophet's actions perfectly to still follow the principles of his actions. Otherwise, the Sunnah couldn't be imitatible in any respect.

 

 

the quran never once tells us to seek intercession from martyrs. not once!

 

"The Qur'an never once tells us that 'Ali was to be the successor (khalifa) after the Prophet. NOT ONCE!"

 

Are you going to stop believing in the appointment of Ali now because the Qur'an doesn't say it explicitly?

 

Of course you keep ignoring that there is not a single example of a prophet and imams asking intercession of a martyred person.

 

The only martyr higher than the Imams is the Prophet, and the only martyrs the prophets are obligated to seek the intercession of are those higher in rank than themselves. None of the prophets ever sought the intercession of the martyrs of their followers because their followers were by definition lesser in rank than they, hence why they were the leader and the others the followers.

Also, I already posted an example of the previous prophets seeking the intercession of a martyr when I posted the hadith where the prophets are mentioned as seeking the intercession of the Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt, who are the greatest of the martyrs.

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Also, we are even told by Imam Jafar (as) to say THIS at the holy shrine of Imam Hussain (as)

 

“I bear witness that You are Allah’s Proof and the son of His Proof. I bear witness that You are the slain one of Allah and son of His slain one. I bear witness that You are the one whose avenger is Allah and the son of the one whose avenger is Allah on earth. I bear witness that You are Allah’s un-avenged one in the heavens and the earth whose revenge is yet to be taken by Allah. I bear witness that You advised the people and announced Allah’s messages. You were devoted and faithful to Allah and You fought in the way of your Lord. I bear witness that You died with insight in the same way as You lived – as a martyr who desired martyrdom and as the witness who was witnessed.”

 

“I am the slave of Allah and your servant who is at your service. I have come to you as a guest to beg for the perfection of my position with Allah and to keep my steps steady in following your way and to beg for the path which does not prevent those who follow it from receiving an assurance from you; an assurance which Allah has ordered you to give. Those who seek Allah, begin with you. Those who seek Allah begin with you. Those who seek Allah begin with you. Allah exposed the lies through you and He keeps the times of affliction away from us through you. Allah started His creation with you and He shall end it with you. And Allah cancels or confirms that which He pleases through you. Allah removes disgrace from us through you and He shall avenge the un-avenged blood of the believers through you. The trees in the earth grow through you and they become fruitful through you. And the skies rain and send down sustenance through you. Allah removes the anguish thorough you and He rains mercy through you. The earth which carries your bodies glorifies Allah through you and it through you that mountains are fixed firmly in the earth. The will of Allah with regard to His destines affairs descends to you and is issues from your houses. In the same way, true and detailed rulings, which govern the people, are issued from your houses.”

 

--Al Kafi, Vol.4 Pg.575 & Kamil Al Ziyarat Pg.198

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/husain-and-karbala/great-ziyarat-of-imam-husain-as

 

These are clear instructions from the Imam himself on how to seek intercession and closeness to Allah through the martyred Hussain (as).

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The problem with your line of thinking is that you are assuming that intercession MUST be asked for directly from the higher ranked. It doesn't. Yes, we can ask the Prophet directly as though he were standing in front of us, but we don't necessarily have to seek it that way. There are three ways to seek the intercession of the Prophet (pbuh).

 

1. Asking the Prophet for his intercession before God on your behalf.

2. Asking God to allow the Prophet to intercede on your behalf and forgive you by the virtue of His Prophet.

3. Performing good deeds according to the shariah with the intention of seeking the intercession of the Prophet before God on your behalf.

 

One has to seek the intercession of the Prophet, but one doesn't HAVE to actually ask him directly for it. It just isn't haram to do it in that manner and we know this by the fact that the Imams taught us how to ask the Prophet for his intercession.

 

But whether the Imams actually said "Oh, Holy Prophet, I ask you for your intercession," doesn't matter because we know they sought the Prophet's intercession by some means and were already blessed by virtue of their relationship with God's Prophet coming out of the womb. The point is that if they said "Oh, Holy Prophet, I ask you for your intercession," while not being near his grave, they wouldn't be contradicting themselves. The same principle would apply to the Imams who sought intercession of the higher ranking Imams (though I think there's some debate here about whether or not all the 12 Imams are essentially equal while still being subordinate to the God and the Prophet). The Imams don't need to ask the Prophet for his intercession directly, but there's no doubt they were the greatest benefactors of it. Again, the point is if they or we sought the intercession in the manner just mentioned, there'd be no haram in the action, and even in some situations it may be recommended. The second point I made is that if the action brings benefit, isn't haram and if the Imams are on record as having spoken directly to the Prophet and having taught their followers how to ask for the Prophet's intercession both by way of speaking to him directly or asking God while bringing him to mind, it is illogical to assume there wasn't any point where they may have asked for the Prophet's aid with God's permission. There are probably more hadith that make the matter explicit out there that just aren't available for me to post, but even without them on hand, basic logic makes things clear.

 

 

 

Because you say so?

 

 

 

 

Anything that contradicts the principles of the Sunnah/Habit. The Prophet didn't use computers to communicate, but they aren't haram because they don't contradict the principles of his habit. An action can contradict the external actions of the Prophet but still be rooted in the same exalted principles. We don't need to imitate the Prophet's actions perfectly to still follow the principles of his actions. Otherwise, the Sunnah couldn't be imitatible in any respect.

 

 

"The Qur'an never once tells us that 'Ali was to be the successor (khalifa) after the Prophet. NOT ONCE!"

 

Are you going to stop believing in the appointment of Ali now because the Qur'an doesn't say it explicitly?

 

The only martyr higher than the Imams is the Prophet, and the only martyrs the prophets are obligated to seek the intercession of are those higher in rank than themselves. None of the prophets ever sought the intercession of the martyrs of their followers because their followers were by definition lesser in rank than they, hence why they were the leader and the others the followers.

Also, I already posted an example of the previous prophets seeking the intercession of a martyr when I posted the hadith where the prophets are mentioned as seeking the intercession of the Prophet and his Ahlul Bayt, who are the greatest of the martyrs.

 

man, you are writing in a very confusing way, especially that last part .. 

 

and comparing the issue of intercession limits and ways, with computers and wilaya just doesn't make sense. There is no relation with these. 

 

Whatever you wrote above, again, you prove that you believe it's ok to follow a tradition that has nothing to do with anything the prophet and imams actually did. you just come up with excuses of why it's ok anyway for all other humans to do so.

 

Anyway, keep making your prayers and dues to creatures of Allah as much as you want.

 

i just hope the OP got his answer, namely that this is not in the way (sunnah) of the Quran and ahlulbayt.

 

there is not one documented example of any ranked prophet or imam asking a higher or lower ranked martyr for help or intercession. As well as there not being a single example in the quran of this.

 

what the OP decides to do after this, is up to him .. and you can also keep on doing your thing, and be ready to explain this complicated explanation above to the angels in your grave and to Allah in judgment day in sha Allah.

 

I for myself, will follow the sunnah of the prophets, imams and the way of the Quran as much as i can, in sha Allah ..

 

that includes not making duas to others than Allah.

 

duas being supplications in any way or form. let's wait and see who is right.

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The point is that the imams who can get intercession of the prophet didn't ask for intercession of their grandfather after he passed away too. According to you they need his intercession .. And if Moses and all other prophets also need the intercession, then why is there no evidence of them asking for it spiritually ?

Why is there no instant of anybody ever asking for intercession in the Quran , except immediate people who are physically present?

You guys ask of martyrs for help. Unless you can prove that the prophets or imams did the same, you are following an innovation. The prophet is an "example" for us to follow.

The sabbath is mentioned in the Quran many times. I suggest you go to a Quran search engine and type in "sabbath" and you'll see. Laws change and that's a fact.

Ok. :)  Allah swt says those from before who didnt keep Sabbath so disobeyed him but it doesnt say change in appointment of Caliphs?

You said that logic can't explain seekin intercesion of martyr Imams pbut, but Sheikh al-Waeli experience prooves otherwise? 

 

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and comparing the issue of intercession limits and ways, with computers and wilaya just doesn't make sense. There is no relation with these.

 

There are plenty of things we are allowed to do and are allowed to use which the Prophet himself never used or performed, so you saying "there's no example of the Prophet doing this himself" doesn't mean anything unless you can prove that it is required of us to imitate the Prophet's abstenance in this regard.

 

And once again, I should mention that if the Prophet or the Imams command or recommend us to do something, in this case to seek the intercession of the saints and prophets whose bodies are in the graves, whether they themselves performed the action themselves is irrelevant. If the Prophet permitted seeking the intercession of the martyrs as we would seek that of any other upright believer, whether the Prophet sought the intercession of the martyrs himself doesn't matter. While the Prophets serve as exemplars for mankind, there are many actions required of their followers that aren't required of them and many actions required of them or allowed to them by God which He hasn't made obligatory for others.

 

Seeking the intercession of the martyrs is one of these actions in that the Prophet and Imams told us to do for our spiritual benefit. That should be the end of the discussion, but you keep insisting that still we need hadith showing them having done it in spite of numerous hadith where they not only recommended it for their followers but also explained the most effective ways to do it.

 

 

Whatever you wrote above, again, you prove that you believe it's ok to follow a tradition that has nothing to do with anything the prophet and imams actually did.

 

Whether they did it or not isn't the point nor does that prove or disprove its permissibility or lack thereof as I already explained. The point remains Ahlul Bayt said we SHOULD seek their intercession, the intercession of the prophets, the intercession of the saints and the martyrs and righteous believers. But apparently, direct instructions from Ahlul Bayt's own mouths are not good enough for you.

 

 

 

there is not one documented example of any ranked prophet or imam asking a higher or lower ranked martyr for help or intercession.

 

I'm just going to post it again

 

Imam Jafar Sadiq  said:

“Once a Jew came to the Prophet (saww) and stood in front of him and was staring at him.

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, “O Jew, what do you need?”

The Jew replied, “Are you superior (the best) or Moosa bin Imran  with whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì spoke and the Torah was revealed to him and the stick, and split the sea for him and the clouds shadowed over him.”

The Prophet (saww) said, “I do not like that a person praises himself, but I say that,

“When Adam  committed the sin asked the repentance of his sin by saying, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to forgive me.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave him.”

“And when Noah  boarded the ship and feared that the ship would drown he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to save me from drowning.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì saved him.”

“And when Ibrahim  was thrown into the fire he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to save me from the fire.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì made the fire cold and safe for him.”

“And when Moosa  threw the stick and felt fear in his heart he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to strengthen me from this fear.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said to Moosa , “Do not fear, for you are higher”

“O Jew, If Moosa  would get to me and does not believe in me (saww) and in my Prophet hood then his faith and his Prophet hood would be of no use (benefit) to him.”

“O Jew, and when the Mehdi (atfs) from my progeny comes out, Esa bin Maryam  will descend and will help Him (atfs) and will keep Him (atfs) ahead and will be pray behind Him (atfs).”

[source: Amali – Sheikh Saduq Majalis.39 Hadees.4]

 

Muhammad is a martyr, the family of Muhammad are martyrs. Unless you're going to say it somehow doesn't count because the Prophet and his family hadn't been born yet, this is a clear example of lower ranking prophets seeking the intercession of martyrs higher in rank than themselves.

 

Holy Prophet (S) said thus: “On the day of judgement first the prophets, then the learned man and then the martyrs will intercede.

--Jaameus Sagheer, vol. 1, pg. 434.

 

At some other place he (S) said: “A martyr will intercede for seventy persons from among his relatives.”

--Kanzul Ummaal, vol. 4, pg. 405.

 

http://www.al-islam.org/shafaat-intercession-sayed-abbas-abedi/interceding-personalities#7-martyrs-islam

 

The Possibility of Communicating with the Spirits

 

It is said that one way to obtain information from other worlds is to make contact with spirits.

 

Take note of the following in this regards;

 

A – Such contact is acceptable as a reality, since Islamic sources have confirmed this in many cases. For example, we can reference the contact and words of Prophet Mohammad (s) with the souls of the unbelievers who were killed in the Battle of Badr [1] . Also there are references in his contact with the souls of believers in the cemetery of Baqi in Medina [2] and also to Imam Ali’s (a) contact with spirits . [3]

 

B – When a dead person’s spirit is summoned it does not necessarily appear immaterially. The spirit may appear in the senses of the person who has summoned it; he may feel it through inspiration and hear some words from the spirit. The spirit does not really appear in an independent or physical sense. [4]

 

C – We cannot give credence to the words heard from spirits or Jinns, or to the prediction astrologists make. Therefore we cannot believe anyone who claims to have had contact with spirits . [5]

 

D – Although many of those who claim to have communicated with the world of spirits tell a lie or are faced with some sort of fantasy and imagination, according to some researches it has been proved that contacting spirits is possible. Some have experienced this communication and learnt or realized truths as a result of it. [6]

 

[1] - Biharal Anwar Page 254, Ahval Al barzakh va Al ghabr va AL azab

 

[2] - Biharal Anwar Volume 22 Page 254, wasiat end ghorb va azab

 

[3] - Man la Yahdharhol faqih Volume 1, Page 179

 

[4] - Allameh Tabatabaie, AL Mizan Persian translation, Volume 1 Page 366 The interpretation being under the supervision of Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi Volume 1 Page 382

 

[5] - Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi has said in this regard: “Contacting the spirits can be accepted as a fact but never forget that this issue has been misused by many…; Makarem Shirazi, Naser, Return of Spirits, Quoted by Ahad Zomorodian in the book “The Reality of the Spirits”

 

[6] - Makarem Shirazi, Naser, Tafsir Namunah, vol.14, pg.321, Islamic Books Publications, Amirul Momeneen Printing House, Qom 1983; Shuja’ei, Muhammad Sadiq, Psychological Perspective of Ayatollah Mesbah Yazdi, pg. 41 and 42, Imam Khomeini Educational and Research Institute, 2nd edition, 2007.

 

http://islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3488#

 

 

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

--Surah 2:154

Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

--Surah 3:169

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look what you posted again does not show any prophet making direct supplication to anybody other than Allah ..

 

“O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to strengthen me from this fear.”

 

 

 

Saying "O Allah, i ask you .." is a dua to Allah .. and very legitimate according to the Quran and the sunnah. Even if we say "by the right of so-and-so"

 

what Imam Ali never did for instance is "Oh Mohamed, intercede for me " .. or "oh Mohamed help me out  .." ..

 

 

 

___

___

 

 

and the story of communicating with the dead has nothing to do with asking them for intercession or help.

 

___

___

 

 

thank you for yet again proving that not one prophet or imam ever asked any martyr including Prophet Mohamed for any help, or for intercession. Therefore this is outside the fold of the sunnah. And thank you for again proving that there is not such an example in the quran either. again


as you showed .. even prophets like Moosa , Ibrahim, Noah and Adam made direct supplications to Allah, and did not say "Oh Mohamed grant me X Y Z"

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Asalaamu alaykum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,

 

No, you cannot. And because Iblis may Allah curse him refused to bow down to Adam a.s., and he refused that Adam a.s. to be his intermediary between him and Allah swt. Even though he was worshipping Allah swt in excess, he refused to worship him through the Caliph that Allah swt appointed, and he went against the command of Allah swt, and you cannot go against His swt command. And you have to accept all vicegerents that Allah swt has appointed, from Adam pbuh to the Imams pbut.

And your source is?

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Salam The station as Allah as of our Rab would be manifest more on the day of judgement. Is it strange that on this day,  intercession will occur and people will seek intercession of others? Why not only call God without intercessors on that day?

 

It seems despite all the emphasis that intercession would occur on this day,  the Quran also has no mention of people seeking intercession of Mohammad on that day while we know through hadiths, people will see intercession of Mohammad.   We also don't have an example of intercessory prayer on that day regarding others from a Prophet or Imam.

 

Yet we see intercession in general is emphasized. Likewise, the Prophets ALL helping a Messenger that comes verifying what is with them, is stated in Quran. This furthers show when Mohammad was told "so by their guidance follow" - it wasn't simply being inspired by their general path, but their particular ways of guidance, their knowledge, their lights, the honors, and uniting in himself all their perfections and uniting there treasures. This is something that took spiritually and they helped him. 

 

There is a verse that is rhetorical, but never less states for the Messenger to ask past messengers if God ever put a god other then Allah.    The verse is emphasizing on the degree of the certainty of the Mohammad, that he can jokingly ask all Messengers of the past, and has connection to them. But this is also showing a stage people can reach with regards to the spiritual world, and as such, the truth can confirmed from there. 

 

In this case, he is seeking an answer from "dead" people, to the extent, he can even ask a rhetorical question, in which, they will all affirm him with a certain response, and this but brings up their rank and his rank up, testifying to God's unity in certainty.

 

It's stating, Mohammad is such that even for the sake of argument where he to not know himself, all the Messengers are there to help him, and he can ask the Messengers and they would all affirm the truth of the religion of God to him.

 

If it was "prayer" "du'a" to ask a question and expect a response from the dead, and seek something from the dead Messengers, then here this rhetorical question would be problematic.

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Please refrain from speaking nonsense when dealing with matters of a person's faith.

The fact is that Allah, in His book, gave many examples of duas, and not a single one mentions 'intercession'. Imam Sajjad [a] in his duas never mentions this type of intercession either. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that this would be possible if it were so important to ask for things through the Imams?

As for the claim that the Ahlulbayt [a] hear and see all things, there is no way you could back that up, and it is clear ghuluw, giving them attributes of Allah. As for them having control over all things, then I really don't know what to say to you other than that you are lost. You need to fear Allah, and stop giving His attributes to His creation, while trying to separate Him from His slaves.

I really have to wonder what Qur'an some of you read, and what mental gymnastics you have to do to reinterpret all the verses about calling on Allah as calling on Allah through the Ahlulbayt [a], even when that is clearly not the meaning of the text.

 

 

If you open up al-Kafi, The Book of People With Divine authority, Hadith 315, or Ch.16 H6: 

 

 

""I was in the company of abu Ja'far al-Thani, the 2nd (a.s.), when a person asked him, "The names and attributes of the Lord, the Most Holy, the Most High, mentioned in His book (the Holy Quran) are they He Himself?" The Imam replied, "Your question has two aspects. If you say that they are His Own Self, meaning that He has plurality and multiplicity, then Allah is far exalted from being as such. If you mean that names and attributes of Allah had eternally been there, this also has a double meaning. (Firstly) if you mean, that names and attributes have eternally been in the knowledge of Allah and He eternally deserved them, it is true and quite right. If you mean that the letters, pictures, spellings and syllables of names and attributes were eternal, then we seek refuge from Him against such belief. Allah existed but there were no creatures. He created names and attributes as a means between His Own-self and the creatures. Through these means they pray to Him and ask Him for help and names are the means to speak of Him..."

So now that we know that the attributes of Allah are not Allah, we can go on to your point, in which you stated that I "needed to stop giving His Attributes to his creation". Well now you will understand the foolishness of that statement, as His attributes are of his creations.

 

Now the hadith also states that he "created names and attributes as a means between his own-self and the creatures". So in fact, these attributes are the way and the only way that we can connect, pray, etc to him. 

 

So now we know a few things: 

1- Gods attributes are of his creation

2- Only through His attributes are we able to communicate with Him

 

Now, what are these attributes: 

In duas, in mafatih, in ziyarat, there are numerous places which indicate that the Ahlulbayt  (as) are these attributes. There are multiple hadiths from the Imams  (as) about there status and their roles in the world, here is one of them from kafi, book of oneness of Allah: 

H 362, Ch. 23, h 10: Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur from Ali ibn al-Salt from al-Hakam and Isma‘il sons of Habid from Burayd al-‘Ijli who has said the following. "I heard Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) saying, ‘Through us Allah is worshipped. Through us Allah is known. Through us belief in the Oneness of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is established. Muhammad is the Hijab (curtain) of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High."

 

And another DIRECTLY stating that the Ahlulbayt  (as) are the names/attributes of Allah: 

h 356, ch. 23, h4:  al-husayn ibn muhammad al-ash‘ari and muhammad ibn yahya both have narrated from ahmad ibn ishaq from su‘dan ibn muslim from mu‘awiya ibn ‘ammar from abu ‘abd Allah  (as) who has said the following. "he said about the words of Allah, ‘Allah has the most blessed names. you should address him in your worship by these names . . .’ (7:180) the imam said, "we, i swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah without which Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of his servants unless they know us properly."

 

So Husayn Sadr, to answer your statements, and to answer the question in general, not only are the Ahlulbayt  (as) an integral part of our worship, but without them, "Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of his servants". Furthermore from your response, you said that as for the Ahlulabayt  (as) being able to see and hear and be in control of everything, well I think I have just demonstrated how giving them these attributes of God is not ghuluw, as they themselves claim that they are these attributes. The truth is clear for anyone who wants to learn, and those that would like to continue on their stubborn paths will not accept the truth, even if it is handed to them on a silver platter: "They said: 'We have heard and disobeyed.' " [Al-Qur'an 2:93]

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If you open up al-Kafi, The Book of People With Divine authority, Hadith 315, or Ch.16 H6: 

 

 

""I was in the company of abu Ja'far al-Thani, the 2nd (a.s.), when a person asked him, "The names and attributes of the Lord, the Most Holy, the Most High, mentioned in His book (the Holy Quran) are they He Himself?" The Imam replied, "Your question has two aspects. If you say that they are His Own Self, meaning that He has plurality and multiplicity, then Allah is far exalted from being as such. If you mean that names and attributes of Allah had eternally been there, this also has a double meaning. (Firstly) if you mean, that names and attributes have eternally been in the knowledge of Allah and He eternally deserved them, it is true and quite right. If you mean that the letters, pictures, spellings and syllables of names and attributes were eternal, then we seek refuge from Him against such belief. Allah existed but there were no creatures. He created names and attributes as a means between His Own-self and the creatures. Through these means they pray to Him and ask Him for help and names are the means to speak of Him..."

So now that we know that the attributes of Allah are not Allah, we can go on to your point, in which you stated that I "needed to stop giving His Attributes to his creation". Well now you will understand the foolishness of that statement, as His attributes are of his creations.

 

Now the hadith also states that he "created names and attributes as a means between his own-self and the creatures". So in fact, these attributes are the way and the only way that we can connect, pray, etc to him. 

 

So now we know a few things: 

1- Gods attributes are of his creation

2- Only through His attributes are we able to communicate with Him

 

Now, what are these attributes: 

In duas, in mafatih, in ziyarat, there are numerous places which indicate that the Ahlulbayt  (as) are these attributes. There are multiple hadiths from the Imams  (as) about there status and their roles in the world, here is one of them from kafi, book of oneness of Allah: 

H 362, Ch. 23, h 10: Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Jumhur from Ali ibn al-Salt from al-Hakam and Isma‘il sons of Habid from Burayd al-‘Ijli who has said the following. "I heard Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) saying, ‘Through us Allah is worshipped. Through us Allah is known. Through us belief in the Oneness of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is established. Muhammad is the Hijab (curtain) of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High."

 

And another DIRECTLY stating that the Ahlulbayt  (as) are the names/attributes of Allah: 

h 356, ch. 23, h4:  al-husayn ibn muhammad al-ash‘ari and muhammad ibn yahya both have narrated from ahmad ibn ishaq from su‘dan ibn muslim from mu‘awiya ibn ‘ammar from abu ‘abd Allah  (as) who has said the following. "he said about the words of Allah, ‘Allah has the most blessed names. you should address him in your worship by these names . . .’ (7:180) the imam said, "we, i swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah without which Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of his servants unless they know us properly."

 

So Husayn Sadr, to answer your statements, and to answer the question in general, not only are the Ahlulbayt  (as) an integral part of our worship, but without them, "Allah does not accept any of the good deeds of his servants". Furthermore from your response, you said that as for the Ahlulabayt  (as) being able to see and hear and be in control of everything, well I think I have just demonstrated how giving them these attributes of God is not ghuluw, as they themselves claim that they are these attributes. The truth is clear for anyone who wants to learn, and those that would like to continue on their stubborn paths will not accept the truth, even if it is handed to them on a silver platter: "They said: 'We have heard and disobeyed.' " [Al-Qur'an 2:93]

 

Salam,

 

Many don't understand the concept because they are scare that they make syirik if they worship Allah swt and know about the real Tauheed directly through Ahlulbayt (as) (which is through the Names of Allah swt).  They failed to understand that Names of Allah swt are also created by Him (swt) as means to HIM (swt).  The Names of Allah swt are installed in Ahlulbayt (as).  Because of Names of Allah swt, Ahlulbayt (as) became Imams, and alive spiritually (not disconnected from us).

 

They failed to understand what has been installed in Adam (as) that made Angels to perform prostration.  Instead they see Ahlulbayt (as), as Iblis saw Adam (as).  Iblis said...."Adam is less superior".  Failing to understand this concept, Iblis just wanted to worship / follow Allah swt directly (which Iblis has done for million years).  Why now has to go through Adam (as)???  This does not made any sense for Iblis.  Therefore, Iblis turned in Satan.

 

Layman

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Salam,

 

Many don't understand the concept because they are scare that they make syirik if they worship Allah swt and know about the real Tauheed directly through Ahlulbayt (as) (which is through the Names of Allah swt).  They failed to understand that Names of Allah swt are also created by Him ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì as means to HIM ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.  The Names of Allah swt are installed in Ahlulbayt (as).  Because of Names of Allah swt, Ahlulbayt (as) became Imams, and alive spiritually (not disconnected from us).

 

They failed to understand what has been installed in Adam (as) that made Angels to perform prostration.  Instead they see Ahlulbayt (as), as Iblis saw Adam (as).  Iblis said...."Adam is less superior".  Failing to understand this concept, Iblis just wanted to worship / follow Allah swt directly (which Iblis has done for million years).  Why now has to go through Adam (as)???  This does not made any sense for Iblis.  Therefore, Iblis turned in Satan.

 

Layman

Right on

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Salam,

 

Many don't understand the concept because they are scare that they make syirik if they worship Allah swt and know about the real Tauheed directly through Ahlulbayt (as) (which is through the Names of Allah swt).  They failed to understand that Names of Allah swt are also created by Him ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì as means to HIM ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.  The Names of Allah swt are installed in Ahlulbayt (as).  Because of Names of Allah swt, Ahlulbayt (as) became Imams, and alive spiritually (not disconnected from us).

 

They failed to understand what has been installed in Adam (as) that made Angels to perform prostration.  Instead they see Ahlulbayt (as), as Iblis saw Adam (as).  Iblis said...."Adam is less superior".  Failing to understand this concept, Iblis just wanted to worship / follow Allah swt directly (which Iblis has done for million years).  Why now has to go through Adam (as)???  This does not made any sense for Iblis.  Therefore, Iblis turned in Satan.

 

Layman

 

Wasalam,

 

I. In response to Ahlulbayt humans being the Names of Allah:

 

First of all let us not forget one of the Names of Allah is Allah .. Al Lah .. the God .. The One God .. And the One .. 

 

So can we say that any member of ahlulbayt is Allah?? According to you guys the Names of God are so 

 

according to you ahlulbayt said this:

 

 

 

 "we, i swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah

 

basically, the Name Allah, can mean Mohamed, Ali, etc. .. so there are more than one Allah's to you, because "we" is plural. Also "the One" or al Wahid, now applies to you for many? there is no logic in this.

 

plus that you believe that not only does Allah share in His Names, but they are actually people. Very strange in deed.

 

II. Allah being worshipped through something or somebody:

 

that means that Allah has a partner in being worshipped. It means that the act of worshipped is never to Allah alone, but that there are partners linked to this act.

 

III. Angels prostrating to Adam:

 

Angels prostrating to Adam does not even give us the right to prostrate to ahlulbayt. No scholar i know of advocates prostrating in the direction of shrines, and away from the qibla. So how can we use this argument to argue a far fetched notion of asking for intercession, or making dua to others than Allah? Did Allah ask the angels to make dua to Adam? no! So, if you come here and say this is argument for making prostration or worship to a human, then we can discuss from there. And most everybody agrees we may not. So that is no proof whatsoever for dua or asking martyrs for intercession or help.

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IV. Further discussion:

 

1 -

If Allah = Mohamed and

Allah = Ali and

Allah = Hassan etc.,

 

then we can say bism Mohamed when slaughtering an animal? according to you we should, because according to you Ahlulbayt are the Names of Allah .. 

 

2 -

 

when we have verses like this:

 

And to Allah belong the best names, so invoke Him by them. And leave those who practice deviation concerning His names. They will be recompensed for what they have been doing.

 

Who is Allah exactly? Can't we say here that if Allah is Mohamed, Ali, etc .. that this verse means .. to Mohamed belong the best Names, so invoke him by them.

 

So in your logic again, Allah here is a bunch of people. So would you say the 99 names, plus the 14, plus how many other prophets are included in this?

 

let me remind you of a hadith posted above

 

ahlulbayt supposedly said (which i don't believe):

 

 

 

we, i swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah

 

additionally, i would like to add that according to you guys a human can be an attribute or a name .. 

 

3 -

 

how can Allah's Name be a person, while this person already has a name.

 

Like Allah, according to you is a person like Mohamed, Ali etc. It doesn't make sense. Then why not just call Mohamed Allah to start with? or Al´Karim, or Al-Wahed .. 

 

Furthermore, as far as i know the Name of Prophet Mohamed for instance is Mohamed bin Abdullah .. so does that mean in other words that It's Mohamed son of the slave of Mohamed? 

 

So, when i say i am abd (slave) of Allah, or abd al Rahman, etc .. does that mean i'm slave of Imam Ali etc.

 

When i say that i worship Al Samad .. according to the above belief, that would mean i worship Ahlul Bayt. Because that Names (Al Samad) is ahlul Bayt according to you ..

 

i seek refuge in Allah from such, and i am witness that there is not god other than Allah, and His Names are reserved for Him alone, and our prayers and supplications are for Him. And He has no partners ..


4 -

 

finally, let us look further at this statement 

 

 

 

we, i swear by Allah, are the most blessed names of Allah

 

so if the ahlubayt member making this statement believes that the Name Allah is in reference to him, then why doesn't he simply say "i swear by myself" .. or "i swear by us" ??

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Ahlulbayt have glorification of Allah, Al-Wahid, Al-Ahad, Al-Samad, Al-Qudoos in them and glory, in the best manner. That is how they are "names of Allah", because when you say "Allah", you are saying "The one who is worthy of worship" which is an idea, and the idea points to a meaning, the meaning is not Ahlulbayt but Allah, but the idea is not Allah but Ahlulbayt have the glorification of Allah and in degrees lesser in creation.

 

I hope I have clarified the matter for you.

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the statement could be said as:

 

"we, i swear by ourselves, are the most blessed names of ourselves" .. wouldn't that make sense? because the Name Allah (one of the Names of Allah) is in reference to the ahlulbayt, according to you

 

 

i distance myself from such mentality and beliefs, and have nothing to do with it. Allah is one, and His Names are all for Him Alone. And they are Attributes and Names of the One. 

 

la ilah il Allah wa Muhamad rasul Allah ..

 

 

if we break down this shahada, and claim that Muhamad, among others "is" the Names of Allah .. then we can change the shahada to:

 

there is no god except  Mohamed/Ali/Hassan/etc., and Muhamed is the messenger of Mohamed/Ali/Hassan/etc.

 

May Allah keep me far away from such lost paths .. ya Rabb!

 

and al Rabb is not a man or woman! al Rabb is only for the One God


Ahlulbayt have glorification of Allah, Al-Wahid, Al-Ahad, Al-Samad, Al-Qudoos in them and glory, in the best manner. That is how they are "names of Allah", because when you say "Allah", you are saying "The one who is worthy of worship" which is an idea, and the idea points to a meaning, the meaning is not Ahlulbayt but Allah, but the idea is not Allah but Ahlulbayt have the glorification of Allah and in degrees lesser in creation.

 

I hope I have clarified the matter for you.

 

the belief that the names of Allah "are" ahlulbayt .. is clear. 

 

that is not true. and a very dangerous statement to believe in and follow.

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No one understands it this way. 

 

The word "Ar-Rahman" is an idea, that idea exists in us, so the name exists in us, so his names are in creation, but the named and meaning is not creation but Allah. Ahlulbayt gather all God's Names in creation most perfectly and in the best beautiful manner, that is why they are the beautiful names, but this doesn't mean they are the meaning of the name. Rather they glorify God from the very essence of light and Tawheed of Allah rooted in their hearts. 

 

No one said the meaning is Ahlulbayt. You are confusing the matter unnecessarily and interpreting in a way no one has, and hence it's a straw man you are attacking.

 

Do you think they way Ahlulbayt understand God's compassion is the same level as when ISIS members say "Ar-rahman". Yes the name Ar-rahman exists in the ISIS member, but the perfection and beauty of the names really exist in Ahlulbayt and then through them, the light is passed to others and the glorification of Allah uniting and perfecting all glory and beauty in that glorification is done through their wilayah and light.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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what is being said here is that when Allah asks us to call upon Him with His Names (including the Name Allah), the meaning of the words "His Names" is in direct reference to people. And that this is proof that calling upon Allah must be through people (ahlulbayt). That is unacceptable and must be destroyed 

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what is being said here is that when Allah asks us to call upon Him with His Names (including the Name Allah), the meaning of the words "His Names" is in direct reference to people. And that this is proof that calling upon Allah must be through people (ahlulbayt). That is unacceptable and must be destroyed 

The names in us exist, we have degrees of it, we say "Ar-Rahman" but do we understand God's compassion like Ahlulbayt. We say, "Ar-Raheem", yet does this idea in us exist in the same way it existed in Ibrahim for example? 

 

We say Allah is Al-Muhsin, but is our concept of goodness the same as Ahlulbayt who understand it perfectly and without flaw. So you want to glorify God by whatever knowledge has descended upon you, but the people who inwardly like Adam were taught all the names, you don't want to glorify God through their doing your best to imitate glorification they show you?

 

Do you think there is no higher understanding of God's Names?

 

Do you think the mere concepts that exist in you, is exactly how Mohammad glorified Allah?

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