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iubelum

Belief In Intercession,compulsory Or Not?

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brother

 

there are many mistakes in your post

shafa'ah is done in the day of judgment 

it isn't reserved to ahlulbayt.... sorry to break that to you. And Quran isn't the only source of religion, this is ahmaddyiah. Our religion is Quran plus ahlulbayt traditions.

 

Also, there is shafa'ah then there is tawassul. The brother was clearly asking about tawassul. It is a concept and practice that has been discussed and mentioned in DOZENS upon dozens of books in almost all schools of islam. The schools have their own evidence to support such practice. 

 

Now innovation is to bring something from your own pocket. These schools with their own scholars did not bring that from their own pockets.

 

im not even going to argue with you but your post was strikingly ignorant regarding shafa'ah and tawassul for someone who spent many hours arguing many members of this site about this topic.

 

peace.

 

peace

 

i never said that shifaa is limited to judgment day. where did i say this? (or that it's reserved for ahlulbayt)

 

and tawasul is a means of an approach, according to all translators of the world, and also according to hadiths. (maybe you can find a single hadith disproving the word wasila being what i described it as .. )

 

where did i say i only follow quran and not ahlul bayt? maybe you should read more carefully:

 

can you bring a single hadith in this whole world from any school of thought, that shows any ahlulbayt member asking a martyred person for shifaa, as a form of waseela??

 

if you can't, then you are clearly following an innovation away from the sunnah of the prophet. And just to top it off:

 

can you bring a single verse from Allah's book, where a prophet asks a martyred person for help?

 

no?

 

then that makes it clear

 

innovation

Edited by peace seeker II

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In my humble opinion,there is a HUGE difference between asking someone I know to pray to God on my behalf and trying to communicate with someone passed away who dwells in barzaq and with whom people who are in this world cannot interact in any way!

Otherwise,it would be necromancy!

The martyrs are not dead.

And do not think of those killed in Allah’s path as dead: indeed they are alive and receive their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. (Surah 3, Aal-e Imran verse 169-170)

And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah his dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how. (Surah 2, al-Baqarah verse 154)

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peace

 

i never said that shifaa is limited to judgment day. where did i say this? (or that it's reserved for ahlulbayt)

 

and tawasul is a means of an approach, according to all translators of the world, and also according to hadiths. (maybe you can find a single hadith disproving the word wasila being what i described it as .. )

 

where did i say i only follow quran and not ahlul bayt? maybe you should read more carefully:

 

can you bring a single hadith in this whole world from any school of thought, that shows any ahlulbayt member asking a martyred person for shifaa, as a form of tawasul ??

 

if you can't, then you are clearly following an innovation away from the sunnah of the prophet. And just to top it off:

 

can you bring a single verse where a prophet asks a martyred person for help?

 

no?

 

then that makes it clear

 

innovation

 

Salamun Alaykum. Eid Mubarak!

 

I don't necessarily disagree or accept what you are saying, this topic I don't discuss no more, but wouldn't calling it an innovation mean that the scholar in your profile picture is an innovator, brother? (astaghfirullah)

Edited by The Batman

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The martyrs are not dead.

And do not think of those killed in Allah’s path as dead: indeed they are alive and receive their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. (Surah 3, Aal-e Imran verse 169-170)

And do not say that whoso is killed in the path of Allah his dead. No! Indeed they are alive but you do not know how. (Surah 2, al-Baqarah verse 154)

 

nobody asked if they are dead or alive. The brother asked if it's ok .. or even a must ... to ask them for help.

 

so i pointed out to him that there is not one instant of any prophet or imam asking martyrs for help. also, that there is not one instant in the quran of this, or a quran command to do so.

 

makes it clear.

 

this is for those who want to follow the sunnah/way of the prophet and his ahlulbayt, and stay within the safe limits of the Quran

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My reply was to iubelum.Of course can one be Shia and not practice or believe in tawassul.

Martyrs don't get asked for help but for dua to get help.

Edited by mina313

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Salamun Alaykum. Eid Mubarak!

 

I don't necessarily disagree or accept what you are saying, this topic I don't discuss no more, but wouldn't calling it an innovation mean that the scholar in your profile picture is an innovator, brother? (astaghfirullah)

 

walaikum salaam and an even more mubarak Eid to you too and your family ..

 

yeah well, one other thing about me is that i don't believe in "infallibility" (note: not the same thing as isma) of any human being or creature. Therefore, i have no problem following scholars who are fallible. I don't mind that people including prophets made mistakes, and still believe that Ayatulah Khamenei is among the highest humans to have ever lived in sha Allah. get it? i hope so dear brother

 

 

 

My reply was to iubelum.Of course can one be Shia and not practice or believe in tawassul.

Martyrs don't get asked for help but for dua to get help.

 

he asked about shifaa .. and from what i understand between the lines (and his response to Haydar Hussain), he meant asking martyrs for shifaa ..

 

wasila is not defined as intercession

see all translations of verse # 17:57 for example

Edited by peace seeker II

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walaikum salaam and an even more mubarak Eid to you too and your family ..

 

yeah well, one other thing about me is that i don't believe in "infallibility" (note: not the same thing as isma) of any human being or creature. Therefore, i have no problem following scholars who are fallible. I don't mind that people including prophets made mistakes, and still believe that Ayatulah Khamenei is among the highest humans to have ever lived in sha Allah. get it? i hope so dear brother

 

Thank you.

 

But innovation isn't a small sin is it? It can potentially make someone a non-believer, wal iyadhu billah.

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Intercession=to seek through a medium

Medium=wasila

tawassul=nominalverb of wa,seen,lam.

the op asked about intercession afaik.

 

 

no wasila is as much a nominal verb as sunnah ..

 

just read how all translators of the world translate the word wasila in the quran, then it will become clear.

 

asking for intercession can be a wasila to God, as long as it is within the limitations of the sunnah .. (see quran and hadiths)

 

however, wasilah (approaching Allah) is not limited to that. Anything good like obedience to Allah goes under that umbrella. Anything that can get us closer to Allah.

Thank you.

 

But innovation isn't a small sin is it? It can potentially make someone a non-believer, wal iyadhu billah.

 

if done intentionally without need of taqya it can be a big sin. any sin can be big or small. Like lying can be detrimental, or it can be a small sin. But fact is that the man in my profile picture is fallible .. even according to himself. So i hope that his sins are all forgiven in sha Allah, and the same for ours in sha Allah

Edited by peace seeker II

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Shafa'a is a special type of wasila which Allah grants certain souls.Wasila is medium in general.

 

shifaa is not a wasila. (of the one who asked for it)

 

shifaa is the process of intercession. wasila is a way to approach (God)-

 

 

the process of asking for shifaa is a wasila.

 

there are examples of this in the quran, when the children of Israel (as) asked their father to ask Allah for forgiveness on their behalf. But the process of shifaa is done by the father himself, and not the children. Therefore, logically the term shifaa is linked to the person doing the intercession, and not the one asking for it.

 

hope that makes it clear.

 

however, making shifaa can be a wasila for the person making it (like prophet Israel). But that is not the same person who asked for it (his children). Like me praying for you can be a means of access to Allah for me. But the wasila for you is to ask me for it. or vice versa.

wasila is a means to an end ..

Edited by peace seeker II

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it can be for the person doing it. And in the OP's case that would be Imam Ali or the prophet for instance.

 

Shifaa is the end product.

 

Asking for shifaa is not shifaa itself.

 

it's like saying asking for money is the same as money.

 

 

A - shifaa is directly linked to the intercessor

 

B - asking for shifaa is directly linked to the person asking for shifaa.

 

 

therefore, the wasila that the OP is referring to is B. Asking a creature for shifaa .. or asking Allah to allow His creatures to make shifaa is the wasila itself. But the shifaa is linked to the intermediary. get it? please say yes !

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there is shafa'ah

and tawassul

and istigatha

 

these are terms. Scholars coined them to make our life easier 

shari'ah although can be used interchangeably with tawassul, shafa'ah usually refers to the day of judgment when we are thrown to hell by the judgment of Allah then prophet interfere for us  and safe us from hell.

 

Tawassul is seeking an intermediary through which we can guarantee the acceptance of our prayers. We can use souls or inanimate things. examples are : By the right of Quran. By the right of Your names, By the right of your prophets, By the right of Ka'abah, by the right of the holy month of ramadan.

 

 

Istigatha is calling upon others for help : Ya Allah, Ya Ali, Ya Muhammad etc.

 

 

each one of those has its own proofs and arguments. Disbelieving in any dose not discount you as Muslim or Shia so long as you don't reject verses of Quran or clear hadith. Otherwise you are just troll.

 

This topic has been covered in many books by many scholars :

http://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/tawassul-resorting-intermediary

 

there is nothing to add more to this practice, take it or leave it. it isn't wajib but it isn't haram, unless you want to invent new ruling according to your desires and limited knowledge.

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sorry sister, but that statement isn't true

 

 

there is shafa'ah

and tawassul

and istigatha

 

these are terms. Scholars coined them to make our life easier

 

those terms are integral part of the vocab left behind in the book of Allah and the ahlulbayt. Nobody has the right to take credit for those, and change their meanings. They are clearly translated and understood by the entire world the same way. So we can not suddenly change / innovate these.

 

of course we can, but then let it be known that it was "coined by scholars" .. for whatever reason.

 

words like shifaa and wasila are clear beyond discussion. the true meaning of the thaqalayn.

 

may the OP know that and that intercession is possible in this life, and that us praying for each other is a form of that, if accepted by God.

 

And that any good deed is a means of approach to God, as long as the intention is there.

 

thank you

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Can you be a Shia if you agree with Ali being the successor in governing the Ummah,in free will,in the value of rising against tirants,ecc without accepting the notion of intercession of Imams between you and God?Can you call yourself a Shia if you utterly refuse to have an intermediary between you and God?

 

Asalaamu alaykum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,

 

No, you cannot. And because Iblis may Allah curse him refused to bow down to Adam a.s., and he refused that Adam a.s. to be his intermediary between him and Allah swt. Even though he was worshipping Allah swt in excess, he refused to worship him through the Caliph that Allah swt appointed, and he went against the command of Allah swt, and you cannot go against His swt command. And you have to accept all vicegerents that Allah swt has appointed, from Adam pbuh to the Imams pbut.

Edited by Khayat

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Asalaamu alaykum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,

 

No, you cannot. And because Iblis may Allah curse him refused to bow down to Adam a.s., and he refused that Adam a.s. to be his intermediary between him and Allah swt. Even though he was worshipping Allah swt in excess, he refused to worship him through the Caliph that Allah swt appointed, and he went against the command of Allah swt, and you cannot go against His swt command. And you have to accept all vicegerents that Allah swt has appointed, from Adam pbuh to the Imams pbut.

 

the angels and adam were in the same place when this happened, and a clear order was given.

 

the martyrs are not in the same place as us now (as they are with their Lord receiving sustenance according to Quran), and there is no order for us that we must ask martyrs or anybody for intercession.

 

So these two can not be compared obviously. if you want to, go ahead. But logic defies it.

unrelated .. also, because the order was to prostrate, and not to seek intercession

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 the martyrs are not in the same place as us now (as they are with their Lord receiving sustenance according to Quran)

Allah has no place where He is with others or away from us imo. Only because we don't see doesn't mean they aren't there.

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Allah has no place where He is with others or away from us imo. Only because we don't see doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

if you want to come up with hypothesis that martyrs are everywhere at the same time, like Allah, then go ahead. But it still doesn't change the fact that we don't have one single narration showing anybody from ahlulbayt asking martyrs for intercession.

 

so the question here if it's a must is absurd. How can something even be halal if it's not supported by Quran and ahadeeth?

and furthermore, the quran says "with their Lord" and not "with you" .. 3nd Rabuhum does sound like somewhere else.

also saying "with their Lord" takes away the whole in between notion. They are not in between us and God .. They are with God ..

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if you want to come up with hypothesis that martyrs are everywhere at the same time, like Allah, then go ahead. But it still doesn't change the fact that we don't have one single narration showing anybody from ahlulbayt asking martyrs for intercession.

 

Why would ahlul bayt need to ask the martyrs for intercession? This whole statement sounds really stupid. Of course we don't have narrations of the Ahlul Bayt asking martyrs for intercession, because the martyrs are saved from hell through Ahlul Bayt's intercession for their sake, not the other way around. We have plenty of narrations in Sunni and Shi'a books where the Ahlul Bayt give salams or reproach to the dead, including the martyrs, but that doesn't prove that's all that's required of us because it's not the family of the Prophet that needs such intercession, it's the rest of us who need their intercession as well as those of the martyrs.

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Why would ahlul bayt need to ask the martyrs for intercession? This whole statement sounds really stupid. Of course we don't have narrations of the Ahlul Bayt asking martyrs for intercession, because the martyrs are saved from hell through Ahlul Bayt's intercession for their sake, not the other way around. We have plenty of narrations in Sunni and Shi'a books where the Ahlul Bayt give salams or reproach to the dead, including the martyrs, but that doesn't prove that's all that's required of us because it's not the family of the Prophet that needs such intercession, it's the rest of us who need their intercession as well as those of the martyrs.

 

the prophets are in degrees, just like all imams.

 

why wouldn't a prophet of lower degrees ask a prophet of higher degree for help? That argument only holds if all Prophets and Imams are on the same level, which is not the case. There are plenty of narrations pointing towards the superiority of the Prophet over the 12 imams. So, why wouldn't they ask their grandfather for help then? Argument doesn't hold, unless we can prove all prophets and imam are on one level, which nobody here can prove.

furthermore, we have narrations showing that Prophet Adam asked for forgiveness by the Haqq of Muhamad .. which is one Prophet seeking intercession through another Prophet in a legitimate way ..

and i am pretty sure that for instance Imam Ali Zain al Abedeen would also say "by the Haqq of my father" ... etc .. that's just plain obvious. Shifaa is for everyone ..

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It is said that one night (before departure) Imam Husain (A.S.) stepped out of his house and went to the head of the grave of his grandfather the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) and said.

"Salutations be upon you O Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.)! I am Husain (A.S.) the son of Fatimah (A.S.). I am your beloved and the child of your beloved. I am your son whom you have left as your heir among your ummah. Thus O Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.)! Be a witness that these people have deserted me and neglected me while refusing to protect me. This is my complaint to you until I come to your presence."
Then he arose and started reciting the Prayers, constantly bowing and prostrating. Waleed went to his house to inquire whether the Imam (A.S.) had left Madinah or not. When he saw that the Imam (A.S.) was not there he said, "Thanks to Allah that he has left and I have been saved from being indicted and involved in spilling his blood." Then Imam (A.S.) returned back to his home and on the second night he again went to the grave of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) and recited some units of Prayers. After finishing the Prayers he said,
"O Allah! This is the grave of Your Prophet (S.A.W.), and I am the grandson of Your Prophet (S.A.W.). You are aware as to what has befallen me. Verily I cherish virtue and righteousness and abhor evil. O Lord of Glory and Honour! I adjure You by the right of this grave and the one who is buried therein, to bring forth for me that which is approved by You and Your Prophet."

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It is said that one night (before departure) Imam Husain (A.S.) stepped out of his house and went to the head of the grave of his grandfather the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) and said.

"Salutations be upon you O Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.)! I am Husain (A.S.) the son of Fatimah (A.S.). I am your beloved and the child of your beloved. I am your son whom you have left as your heir among your ummah. Thus O Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.)! Be a witness that these people have deserted me and neglected me while refusing to protect me. This is my complaint to you until I come to your presence."

Then he arose and started reciting the Prayers, constantly bowing and prostrating. Waleed went to his house to inquire whether the Imam (A.S.) had left Madinah or not. When he saw that the Imam (A.S.) was not there he said, "Thanks to Allah that he has left and I have been saved from being indicted and involved in spilling his blood." Then Imam (A.S.) returned back to his home and on the second night he again went to the grave of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) and recited some units of Prayers. After finishing the Prayers he said,

"O Allah! This is the grave of Your Prophet (S.A.W.), and I am the grandson of Your Prophet (S.A.W.). You are aware as to what has befallen me. Verily I cherish virtue and righteousness and abhor evil. O Lord of Glory and Honour! I adjure You by the right of this grave and the one who is buried therein, to bring forth for me that which is approved by You and Your Prophet."

 

this is not asking for intercession or help actually. It is simply a one-way communication, much like sending salams and baraka to him.

 

he asks his grandfather to be a witness, and then prays to Allah .. that's what is the sunnah of the prophet and his progeny. Praying only to Allah ..

 

 

 

i'm not sure if asking "by haq" or "truth" of someone to Allah would be considered intercession.

 

but one thing is for sure:. The authority of access to the pond is given to the Prophet himself. And so, even his children will need his ok to approach it, which he will obviously grant the chosen ones in sha Allah.

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وَأَنَّ المَساجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلا تَدعوا مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَدًا

The places of worship belong to Allah, so do not invoke anyone along with Allah[72:18]
 
Wa alaykum al-salaam,

 

I admire your honesty and sincerity. May Allah protect you and us all, amin. 

 

The quoted verse does not deny intercession in any case. It mentions that no one can be invoked as Illah / God with Allah for worship.

 

I quote the following verses from the quran explaining this fact:

 

٢٨_٨٨وَلَا تَدْعُ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ إِلَٰهًا ءَاخَرَ ۘ لَآ إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ۚ كُلُّ شَىْءٍ هَالِكٌ إِلَّا وَجْهَهُۥ ۚ لَهُ ٱلْحُكْمُ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

028:088 And do not call another god besides Allah; there is no god except Him. Everything is to perish except His Face. All judgement belongs to Him, and to Him you will be brought back

٢٣_١١٧       وَمَن يَدْعُ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ إِلَٰهًا ءَاخَرَ لَا بُرْهَٰنَ لَهُۥ بِهِۦ فَإِنَّمَا حِسَابُهُۥ عِندَ رَبِّهِۦٓ ۚ إِنَّهُۥ لَا يُفْلِحُ ٱلْكَٰفِرُونَ

023:117 Whoever calls besides Allah another god of which he has no proof, his reckoning will indeed rest with his Lord. Indeed the faithless will not be felicitous.

 

٢7_١٨         وَأَنَّ ٱلْمَسَٰجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلَا تَدْعُوا۟ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ أَحَدًۭا.

072:018 The places of worship belong to Allah, so do not call anyone (Illah / God) along with Allah

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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this is not asking for intercession or help actually. It is simply a one-way communication, much like sending salams and baraka to him.

 

he asks his grandfather to be a witness, and then prays to Allah .. that's what is the sunnah of the prophet and his progeny. Praying only to Allah ..

 

 

 

i'm not sure if asking "by haq" or "truth" of someone to Allah would be considered intercession.

 

but one thing is for sure:. The authority of access to the pond is given to the Prophet himself. And so, even his children will need his ok to approach it, which he will obviously grant the chosen ones in sha Allah.

Ya shiekh

This example is called tawassul.

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the angels and adam were in the same place when this happened, and a clear order was given.

 

the martyrs are not in the same place as us now (as they are with their Lord receiving sustenance according to Quran), and there is no order for us that we must ask martyrs or anybody for intercession.

 

So these two can not be compared obviously. if you want to, go ahead. But logic defies it.

unrelated .. also, because the order was to prostrate, and not to seek intercession

 

:)

 

Wasalaam,

 

It was when Adam a.s. was placed as a Caliph on this Earth and the command hasn't changed or stopped, because the Sunnah of Allah swt never does that. By the way, the question of the OP was about the time of Imam Ali a.s., and after that the other Imams pbut became so, and you cannot know Allah swt, if you dont know his vicegerents/who are his intermediary on His Earth.   Now Imam of the time a.s. is the intermediary. 

 

And the order to prostrate and to have Adam a.s. as intermediary is the same thing, because Iblis l.a. wanted to worship Allah swt directly, but Allah swt didn't want his or any's worship the way he/they want because Allah swt doesn't need our worship, it is us who need Him swt and to worship Him swt.

 

 

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:)

 

Wasalaam,

 

It was when Adam a.s. was placed as a Caliph on this Earth and the command hasn't changed or stopped, because the Sunnah of Allah swt never does that. By the way, the question of the OP was about the time of Imam Ali a.s., and after that the other Imams pbut became so, and you cannot know Allah swt, if you dont know his vicegerents/who are his intermediary on His Earth.   Now Imam of the time a.s. is the intermediary. 

 

And the order to prostrate and to have Adam a.s. as intermediary is the same thing, because Iblis l.a. wanted to worship Allah swt directly, but Allah swt didn't want his or any's worship the way he/they want because Allah swt doesn't need our worship, it is us who need Him swt and to worship Him swt.

 

 

 

wasalaam,

 

The commands of Allah change over time, that's why we don't have to observe sabath anymore for instance.

 

But anyway, prostration does not clearly refer to intercession. And Allah has no partners in prayers to Him. Our prayers to Him should always be direct and only to Him. Even if we have an imam of a prayer for instance. And even if we ask others to pray for us. Still the prayer is directly to Allah .. Asking for intercession is not a prayer nor a prostration.

Edited by peace seeker II

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the prophets are in degrees, just like all imams.

 

why wouldn't a prophet of lower degrees ask a prophet of higher degree for help? That argument only holds if all Prophets and Imams are on the same level, which is not the case. There are plenty of narrations pointing towards the superiority of the Prophet over the 12 imams. So, why wouldn't they ask their grandfather for help then? Argument doesn't hold, unless we can prove all prophets and imam are on one level, which nobody here can prove.

furthermore, we have narrations showing that Prophet Adam asked for forgiveness by the Haqq of Muhamad .. which is one Prophet seeking intercession through another Prophet in a legitimate way ..

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from certain individuals of his people from Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar who has said the following:

"Abu Abd-Allah Imam Sadiq (as), said to me, "If you can, do not go to sleep without seeking protection with eleven letters."

I then asked, "What are they?" The Imam told me to say, "I seek protection with the majesty of Allah, I seek protection with the power of Allah, I seek protection with the glory of Allah, I seek protection with the authority of Allah, I seek protection with the beauty of Allah, I seek protection with the defense of Allah, I seek protection with the prevention of Allah, I seek protection with the community of Allah, I seek protection with the possession of Allah, I seek protection with the face of Allah, I seek protection with the Messenger of Allah against the evil of whatever He has created, spread and settled." The Imam said, "You may seek protection with these letters whenever you like."

 

--al-Kafi, Vol. 2, Pg. 537-538, Chapter - 'Prayer before sleeping and after waking up', Hadees. 9

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu Umayr from Ibrahim ibn Abd al-Hamid from a man who has said the following:

"Once I went in the presence of Abu Abd-Allah (as), and complained to him from a pain that I suffered. The Imam instructed me to say, "In the name of Allah, wipe your hand on the painful area and say, "I seek protection through the power of Allah, I seek protection through the glory of Allah, I seek protection through the greatness of Allah, I seek protection through the community of Allah, I seek protection through the Messenger of Allah, I seek protection through the names of Allah, against the evil of that which I avoid (cautious of) and from the evil of that from which I fear for myself,  say it seven times. I (the narrator) followed the instruction and Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, removed the pain from me."

 
--al-Kafi, Vol. 2, Pg. 566, Chapter - 'Supplications for ailments and diseases', Hadees. 8
 
 
“The “good tree" (Surah Ahzab, verse 33) is the Prophet (pbuh)…the branch of the tree is Ali (as), the trunk of the tree being Fatimah (as) and its fruit the children of Ali (as) and Fatimah (as).”
 
--Biharul-Anwar, vol.9, pg. 218.
 
What Amir al-mu'minin said on the occasion of the burial of Sayyidatu'n-nisa' (Supreme lady) Fatimah (p.b.u.h.) while addressing the Holy Prophet at his grave.
 
O Prophet of Allah, peace be upon you from me and from your daughter who has come to you and who has hastened to meet you. O Prophet of Allah, my patience about your chosen (daughter) has been exhausted, and my power of endurance has weakened, except that I have ground for consolation in having endured the great hardship and heart-rending event of your separation. I laid you down in your grave when your last breath had passed (when your head was) between my neck and chest.
 
 
We know the Imams invoked the name of Allah and His Prophet on many occasions and we know they addressed the Prophet directly, whether near his grave or not (our salat, which is based on their example, is proof of that), and we can logically conclude that many du'a they gave to their followers asking for protection or aid through Allah's Prophet, including those which address the Prophet directly, were also used by them on those occasions where they may have still been relevant to themselves.

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Why is he bringing the complaint to the Prophet in the first place then?

 

maybe he felt like it, but it does not qualify as asking for intercession , as he is not asking for intercession nor help .. but instead he asks only of Allah

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from certain individuals of his people from Mufaddal ibn ‘Umar who has said the following:

"Abu Abd-Allah Imam Sadiq (as), said to me, "If you can, do not go to sleep without seeking protection with eleven letters."

I then asked, "What are they?" The Imam told me to say, "I seek protection with the majesty of Allah, I seek protection with the power of Allah, I seek protection with the glory of Allah, I seek protection with the authority of Allah, I seek protection with the beauty of Allah, I seek protection with the defense of Allah, I seek protection with the prevention of Allah, I seek protection with the community of Allah, I seek protection with the possession of Allah, I seek protection with the face of Allah, I seek protection with the Messenger of Allah against the evil of whatever He has created, spread and settled." The Imam said, "You may seek protection with these letters whenever you like."

 

--al-Kafi, Vol. 2, Pg. 537-538, Chapter - 'Prayer before sleeping and after waking up', Hadees. 9

 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu Umayr from Ibrahim ibn Abd al-Hamid from a man who has said the following:

"Once I went in the presence of Abu Abd-Allah (as), and complained to him from a pain that I suffered. The Imam instructed me to say, "In the name of Allah, wipe your hand on the painful area and say, "I seek protection through the power of Allah, I seek protection through the glory of Allah, I seek protection through the greatness of Allah, I seek protection through the community of Allah, I seek protection through the Messenger of Allah, I seek protection through the names of Allah, against the evil of that which I avoid (cautious of) and from the evil of that from which I fear for myself,  say it seven times. I (the narrator) followed the instruction and Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Holy, removed the pain from me."

 
--al-Kafi, Vol. 2, Pg. 566, Chapter - 'Supplications for ailments and diseases', Hadees. 8
 
 
“The “good tree" (Surah Ahzab, verse 33) is the Prophet (pbuh)…the branch of the tree is Ali (as), the trunk of the tree being Fatimah (as) and its fruit the children of Ali (as) and Fatimah (as).”
 
--Biharul-Anwar, vol.9, pg. 218.
 
What Amir al-mu'minin said on the occasion of the burial of Sayyidatu'n-nisa' (Supreme lady) Fatimah (p.b.u.h.) while addressing the Holy Prophet at his grave.
 
O Prophet of Allah, peace be upon you from me and from your daughter who has come to you and who has hastened to meet you. O Prophet of Allah, my patience about your chosen (daughter) has been exhausted, and my power of endurance has weakened, except that I have ground for consolation in having endured the great hardship and heart-rending event of your separation. I laid you down in your grave when your last breath had passed (when your head was) between my neck and chest.
 
 
We know the Imams invoked the name of Allah and His Prophet on many occasions and we know they addressed the Prophet directly, whether near his grave or not (our salat, which is based on their example, is proof of that), and we can logically conclude that many du'a they gave to their followers asking for protection or aid through Allah's Prophet, including those which address the Prophet directly, were also used by them on those occasions where they may have still been relevant to themselves.

 

 

from all the above, the only one that would be relevant would be the hadiths above that equate seeking protection with Allah equal to seeking protection with the community of Allah, for instance. Obviously the two can not be compared, and Allah has no partners. (according to this logic we might as well say awuthu bil shia Ali .. which is obviously absurd) Still it does not show a single example of prophets or imams asking for intercession from any martyr.

or do you say awuthu bi Muhamad? or awuthu bil shia Ali ?? do you think that is acceptable? then go ahead and let's resolve that in judgment day in sha Allah ..

 

i will say awuthu bil Lah only in sha Allah

or maybe you can bring the hadith in Arabic so we can analyze the exact word usage and grammar as well, and see what is meant ..

and in any case, let us stay close to the idea of intercession here, if possible, thanks.

 

intercession is called shifaa in Arabic

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Asalaamu alaykum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,

 

No, you cannot. And because Iblis may Allah curse him refused to bow down to Adam a.s., and he refused that Adam a.s. to be his intermediary between him and Allah swt. Even though he was worshipping Allah swt in excess, he refused to worship him through the Caliph that Allah swt appointed, and he went against the command of Allah swt, and you cannot go against His swt command. And you have to accept all vicegerents that Allah swt has appointed, from Adam pbuh to the Imams pbut.

Salam, 

Don't forget that the Fourteen Infallibles a.s. were also in the loins of Adam a.s.

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maybe he felt like it, but it does not qualify as asking for intercession , as he is not asking for intercession nor help .. but instead he asks only of Allah

 

The Imam  would not be complaining to the Prophet  unless there was some wisdom or benefit in doing so.

 

 

 

Still it does not show a single example of prophets or imams asking for intercession from any martyr.

 

Narrated to us Al-Sanady Bin Muhammad, from Yunus Bin Yaqoub, from Abdul Aala who said;

 
Abu Abdullah Imam Sadiq  said: "No Prophet has ever been a Prophet  at all except by recognizing Our rights, and by preferring Us over every one other than us."
 
[source: Basair al-Darajaat, Vol. 1, Chapter. 9, Hadees. 1]
 
Imam Jafar Sadiq  said:

“Once a Jew came to the Prophet (saww) and stood in front of him and was staring at him.

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said, “O Jew, what do you need?”

The Jew replied, “Are you superior (the best) or Moosa bin Imran  with whom Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì spoke and the Torah was revealed to him and the stick, and split the sea for him and the clouds shadowed over him.”

The Prophet (saww) said, “I do not like that a person praises himself, but I say that,

“When Adam  committed the sin asked the repentance of his sin by saying, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to forgive me.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì forgave him.”

“And when Noah  boarded the ship and feared that the ship would drown he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to save me from drowning.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì saved him.”

“And when Ibrahim  was thrown into the fire he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to save me from the fire.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì made the fire cold and safe for him.”

“And when Moosa  threw the stick and felt fear in his heart he said, “O Allah, I ask you by the right of Muhammad (saww) and the family of Muhammad  to strengthen me from this fear.” And then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said to Moosa , “Do not fear, for you are higher”

“O Jew, If Moosa  would get to me and does not believe in me (saww) and in my Prophet hood then his faith and his Prophet hood would be of no use (benefit) to him.”

“O Jew, and when the Mehdi (atfs) from my progeny comes out, Esa bin Maryam  will descend and will help Him (atfs) and will keep Him (atfs) ahead and will be pray behind Him (atfs).”

[source: Amali – Sheikh Saduq Majalis.39 Hadees.4]

 

Jabir bin Yazid Joafi asked Imam Jafar Sadiq  the interpretation of the verse "Verily among his Shia is Ibrahim". 
 
Imam Sadiq  replied saying:
"Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì created Ibrahim and removed the veil from his eyes. Ibrahim  looked and saw a light (Noor) next to the throne and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì what is this light?" He was told that this is the light of Muhammad (saww) the purest of my creations. Then Ibrahim  saw a light next to that light (of Muhammad) and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì what is this light?" He was told that this is the light of Ali bin Abi Talib  helper of my religion. Then Ibrahim  saw 3 more lights next to these 2 lights (of Muhammad and Ali) and said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and what are these lights?". He was told that this is the light of Fatima (sa) whose lovers are weaned from fire (of hell) and the light of her sons Hasan (as) and Husain (as). Ibrahim (as) then said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì I see 9 lights". He was told that these are the Imams  from the sons of Ali (as) and Fatima (sa). 
 
Then Ibrahim  said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì by the right of these Five, inform me about these 9 lights".  He was told that the first is Ali bin Husain (as) and then his son Muhammad (as) and then his son Jafar (as) and then his son Moosa (as) and then his son Ali (as) and then his son Muhammad (as) and then his son Ali (as) and then his son Hasan and then his son Qaim (atfs).
 
Then Ibrahim  said, "My Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and my Master I see lights which are countless and none knows the count but You. He was told that these are the Shias of Amir Al Momineen Ali bin Abi Talib (as). Then Ibrahim (as) said, "By what are the Shias known?" Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì said, "By 51 rakat Prayers, saying 'BisMillah' Aloud, performing the Qunoot before Ruku and wearing rings on the right hand.
 
Then Ibrahim  said, "O Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, make me from among the Shia of Amir Al Momineen". Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì gave the news of this in his book and said "Verily among his Shia is Ibrahim".
 
Source: Tawil Al Ayat Vol.2 Pg.495 (Sura-e-Saffat), Mustadrak Vol.4 Pg.187, Bihar Al Anwar Vol.36 Pg.151, Al Fazail Pg. 158

 

(Arabic wording including in link)

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-and-prophets

 

I don't know why you are so fixated on martyrs specifically, but like I said, the Imams have no need to seek the intercession of any martyr before Allah besides Prophet Muhammad because it is they who intercede for all the prophets, all the saints, all the martyrs and all the believers. And all the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad received their position due to the intercession of the Holy Prophet and Ahlul Bayt.

 

Now if you are talking about intercession in the form of asking for daily or conventional needs (eg. "please give me this job" "please help my wife conceive" "please pray for me so that my illness is cured etc.), this isn't as relevant to the Imams or the Prophets as it is for the general community of believers, but it's clear the Imams endorsed seeking intercession through them and through the Holy Prophet for expedient responses to such issues.

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The Imam  would not be complaining to the Prophet  unless there was some wisdom or benefit in doing so.

 

 

 

 

Narrated to us Al-Sanady Bin Muhammad, from Yunus Bin Yaqoub, from Abdul Aala who said;

 
Abu Abdullah Imam Sadiq  said: "No Prophet has ever been a Prophet  at all except by recognizing Our rights, and by preferring Us over every one other than us."
 
[source: Basair al-Darajaat, Vol. 1, Chapter. 9, Hadees. 1]
 
 
محمد بن يحيى، عن عبد الله بن محمد بن عيسى، عن محمد بن عبد الحميد عن يونس إبن يعقوب، عن عبد الاعلى قال: سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول ما من نبي جاء قط إلا بمعرفة حقنا وتفضيلنا على من سوانا.
 
 
Muhammad b. Yahya from `Abdullah b. Muhammad b. `Isa from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Hamid from Yunus b. Ya`qub from `Abd al-A`la. He said: I heard Aba `Abdillah [al-Sadiq] عليه السلام saying: There was never any prophet who came except with recognition of our right and preference of us over others.
 

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