Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
iubelum

Belief In Intercession,compulsory Or Not?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Can you be a Shia if you agree with Ali being the successor in governing the Ummah,in free will,in the value of rising against tirants,ecc without accepting the notion of intercession of Imams between you and God?Can you call yourself a Shia if you utterly refuse to have an intermediary between you and God?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you understand 'intercession', and an 'intermediary between you and God'? If you mean that you want to pray to Allah directly, without asking through an Imam, then of course you don't need to believe in that. Otherwise, you'll have to be more precise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you be a Shia if you agree with Ali being the successor in governing the Ummah,in free will,in the value of rising against tirants,ecc without accepting the notion of intercession of Imams between you and God?Can you call yourself a Shia if you utterly refuse to have an intermediary between you and God?

yes.

a shia is follower of ahlulbayt. so you should work hard to follow their steps, then you are a shia (a follower).

 

what is fundamental is the principles of faith. Other minor beliefs are not mandatory, sometimes you need proof, sometimes proof isn't enough to convince you, sometimes you just can't make your head around some beliefs. That won't make you non shia. Bu these principles of faith are the basics that should be believed in

http://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-vahid-khorasani

Edited by Chaotic Muslem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you understand 'intercession', and an 'intermediary between you and God'? If you mean that you want to pray to Allah directly, without asking through an Imam, then of course you don't need to believe in that. Otherwise, you'll have to be more precise.

Yes,that's exactly what I was meaning. My question arose because I had the doubt that praying through Imams was compulsory in order to be a Shia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes,that's exactly what I was meaning. My question arose because I had the doubt that praying through Imams was compulsory in order to be a Shia.

It's unfortunate that this impression was given to you, but no it's not even recommended, let alone compulsory. At best, it's permissible, although there are frequent debates about that on ShiaChat, so there are Shias who don't agree with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Courtesy of al-islam.org: 


No intercessor can plead with Him except by His permission.1


Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His permission?2


On that Day, no intercession shall avail, except the one from whom Allah, the Most Gracious has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him.3


And they cannot intercede, except for Him with whom He is pleased.4


None shall have the power of intercession except one who has received permission or a promise from Allah, the Most Gracious.5


Intercession with Him profits none except for those He permits.


We sent no messenger but to be obeyed by the leave of Allah. If they who have been unjust to themselves had come to you (Prophet Muhammad) and begged Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them—indeed they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.7


(The brothers of Yusuf) said, “O our father! Ask forgiveness from Allah for our sins. Indeed, we have been sinners.” He said, “I will ask my Lord for forgiveness for you.” Verily, He, and only He, is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.8


Tell me, if any of the ahlulbayt (as) were with you, physically, in the room, and you had some serious problem or something to deal with, wouldn't you ask them for help? If not, then idk what kind of shia you are. Now you probably would ask them for help, so what difference does it make now that they're bodies are not physically present in the room. Not only do the Ahlulbayt have control over all things, but they can also hear and see all things, and for the true shia and lovers of Ahlulbayt (as), they are with them at all times. So why wouldn't you ask them for help? Just because you can't see them? 


Furthermore, the Ahlulbayt (as) are the Noor-al-Allah. If you are to cut off the light of the Ahlulbayt, then how do you expect to receive that Noor. Lets say you have a source of light, and you want to get this light to reach a certain point in the room. To focus that light on a certain point, you use mirrors to reflect the light and to aim it onto that certain point. Now what would happen, if you removed one of those mirrors? That certain point would not receive the light. So without those mirrors, or pathways, or TOOLS  to receive the light, you wouldn't receive the light. The Ahlulbayt (as) are the tools, the methods, and the "mirrors" in which we receive the walayah, the original light. The Ahlulbayt (as) are the intercessors, medians between humans and Allah, they are how we "get to Allah" (I use this term with caution). Sure you would still be a shia, but you wouldnt be grasping the full beauty, meaning, and reason behind shiism. 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you be a Shia if you agree with Ali being the successor in governing the Ummah,in free will,in the value of rising against tirants,ecc without accepting the notion of intercession of Imams between you and God?Can you call yourself a Shia if you utterly refuse to have an intermediary between you and God?

 

No

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please refrain from speaking nonsense when dealing with matters of a person's faith.

The fact is that Allah, in His book, gave many examples of duas, and not a single one mentions 'intercession'. Imam Sajjad [a] in his duas never mentions this type of intercession either. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that this would be possible if it were so important to ask for things through the Imams?

As for the claim that the Ahlulbayt [a] hear and see all things, there is no way you could back that up, and it is clear ghuluw, giving them attributes of Allah. As for them having control over all things, then I really don't know what to say to you other than that you are lost. You need to fear Allah, and stop giving His attributes to His creation, while trying to separate Him from His slaves.

I really have to wonder what Qur'an some of you read, and what mental gymnastics you have to do to reinterpret all the verses about calling on Allah as calling on Allah through the Ahlulbayt [a], even when that is clearly not the meaning of the text.

 

Well said. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you be a Shia if you agree with Ali being the successor in governing the Ummah,in free will,in the value of rising against tirants,ecc without accepting the notion of intercession of Imams between you and God?Can you call yourself a Shia if you utterly refuse to have an intermediary between you and God?

Ask Allah swt to show you the answer?  This is higly personal issue that every Shia needs to clarify to himself.

 

Even giving salawat is a form of intercession.  Try reading duas without giving salawat to Prophet and HIs Family, or try make salat with the salawat!

Edited by layman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please refrain from speaking nonsense when dealing with matters of a person's faith.

Except both the Qur'an and numerous hadith testify to the fact it's the Prophet and his family's intercession that brings a person salvation and entry into Paradise. You can't deny intercession and still be a Shi'a because the very essence of Shi'ism is the belief in the intercession of Ahlul Bayt. Even an atheist can believe that Ali (as) had more right than anyone else to lead the Ummah politically.

 

Is this true? What about Yaqoub's son asking Yaqoub to pray forgiveness for them? What about people asking Musa to pray to God for water for them? What about Firon people asking Musa to pray to God to stop the afflictions?

 

What about Jesus asking for God to send down a table of food because his disciples asked him to? The list goes on but the Anti-Shafa'ah Alliance of Shiachat continues to pull all sorts of mental gymnastics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is this true? What about Yaqoub's son asking Yaqoub to pray forgiveness for them? What about people asking Musa to pray to God for water for them? What about Firon people asking Musa to pray to God to stop the afflictions?

 

Where in the Qur'an does Allah tell us to ask Isa [a], or Musa [a], or Ibraheem [a], or any other prophet for that matter, for help?

 

You asking me to pray for you isn't the same as calling out to someone, who returned to Allah centuries ago, to make the same dua.  And we shouldnt pretend like it is the same. 

 

 

 

Except both the Qur'an and numerous hadith testify to the fact it's the Prophet and his family's intercession that brings a person salvation and entry into Paradise. You can't deny intercession and still be a Shi'a because the very essence of Shi'ism is the belief in the intercession of Ahlul Bayt. Even an atheist can believe that Ali (as) had more right than anyone else to lead the Ummah politically.

 

 

No one denies Intercession on the Day of Judgement. But the OP is not talking about that. Haydar asked him to clarify what he meant and he did in post #4:

 

 

Yes,that's exactly what I was meaning. My question arose because I had the doubt that praying through Imams was compulsory in order to be a Shia.

What about Jesus asking for God to send down a table of food because his disciples asked him to? 

 

What does this have to do with what the OP was enquiring about? 

 

 

The list goes on but the Anti-Shafa'ah Alliance of Shiachat continues to pull all sorts of mental gymnastics.

 

lol

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where in the Qur'an does Allah tell us to ask Isa [a], or Musa [a], or Ibraheem [a], or any other prophet for that matter, for help?

Salam

 

I'm not sure, but, to me, I think the verse telling us to ask the family of the reminder when we don't know (something we need to know or on how to act) as all Prophets sent before were guided by revelation, doesn't quite make sense to be limited in an area or time. The only thing is I'm schizophrenic so I'm not sure about my experiences if they are real or products of my imagination. It's something I struggle with.

 

But as far as this question, telepathically, I'm not sure but perhaps if my experience is authentic, I was taught the following by what appeared to be by the Nabi and it's the best I remember it by:

 

"O who is Mawla of Mohammad in a way Mohammad is not Mawla of You, and who made Mohammad Mawla of believers in a way believers are not Mawla of Mohammad, and made Ali Mawla of believers in the same way Mohammad is Mawla of believers, I ask you to help me against Satan a mighty help, Ya Abal Ghayth (first time hearing this nickname as far I recall and I'm wondering it's a common nickname for Imam Mahdi or not, but it was understood to be reference to Imam Mahdi), ighithni"

 

I don't know - I'm schizophrenic, so I can't say my experiences are a hujja on myself let alone others.

 

Sadly, I tried the Du'a, thinking (felt so sure) I would get an immediate help from Imam Mahdi...but so far...nothing. 

 

So I'm not sure about this. It's so confusing for me.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where in the Qur'an does Allah tell us to ask Isa [a], or Musa [a], or Ibraheem [a], or any other prophet for that matter, for help?

 

Musa (pbuh) and Isa (pbuh) did not chastise their followers for asking them to intercede on their behalf for the things mentioned, they only warned them about disbelieving after the fact had been shown to them.

 

 

 

You asking me to pray for you isn't the same as calling out to someone, who returned to Allah centuries ago, to make the same dua.  And we shouldnt pretend like it is the same. 

 

I don't think their being dead really makes any difference. What was permissible to ask of them while their bodies were alive is permissible to ask of their living spirits.

 

What does this have to do with what the OP was enquiring about?

 

Well, it and the story of Musa which StrugglingForLight mentioned demonstrate that one can ask the prophets to intercede for the provision of even the basic needs or wants. It's not just about intercession on the Day of Judgment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Musa (pbuh) and Isa (pbuh) did not chastise their followers for asking them to intercede on their behalf for the things mentioned, they only warned them about disbelieving after the fact had been shown to them.

 

 

Right. This confirms what I was alluding too. Any examples of Jesus instructing his Disciples to make dua to previous prophets and ask them to ask Allah? 

 

 

 

I don't think their being dead really makes any difference. What was permissible to ask of them while their bodies were alive is permissible to ask of their living spirits.

 

 

This is an assumption. What do you consider proof of this? 

 

And do you have contact with "their living spirits"? Where in the Qur'an are we told to contact their "living spirits"?

 

Why would the Companions of the Imams bother to travel to meet them when they could of just made dua to them where they were or ask the "living spirits" of the previous Imams?

 

 

I don't mean to be rude, but this stuff is honestly nonsensical.

 

 

Well, it and the story of Musa which StrugglingForLight mentioned demonstrate that one can ask the prophets to intercede for the provision of even the basic needs or wants. It's not just about intercession on the Day of Judgment.

 

OK. Do you (or anyone here for that matter) believe that when the Companions didnt see the Prophet (for what ever reason; he did have pre-modern state and religion to run) they were busy making dua to him in his absense and asking him to pray to Allah for them? 

 

From what it seems to me, you're conflating two entirely different things and presenting it all as 'intercession'. I don't see how asking a prophet in your presence to ask Allah to improve your affair is the same as calling upon that prophet (or their "living spirit") centuries, perhaps even thousands of years, after they returned to their Lord?

 

Sure, in both cases the one youre calling on is 'interceeding' but youre assuming this to be correct when there is no textual precedent for it. I think this is what some are overlooking. 

 

وَأَنَّ المَساجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلا تَدعوا مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَدًا

The places of worship belong to Allahso do not invoke anyone along with Allah[72:18]
 
 

Salam

 

Wa alaykum al-salaam,

 

I admire your honesty and sincerity. May Allah protect you and us all, amin. 

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam

 

Thank you Ali Musaaa.

 

 

 

 

وَأَنَّ المَساجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلا تَدعوا مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَدًا


The places of worship belong to Allah, so do not invoke anyone along with Allah[72:18]
 

This is a very strong verse. If Du'a means "call", it would be an Islamic command, that as of now, like Sujood, Allah doesn't want us calling upon others when calling Him...but calling him alone.

 

If it means prayer, it would mean Allah doesn't want to pray with Allah anyone....but when doing prayer doing it to Allah alone.

 

This seems like the muhkam meaning. As we know Sujood was once allowed to Yusuf, but Islam limited sujood to only Allah and doesn't allow it to Imams.

 

This verse can be abrogating calling out to Allah via others?

 

I would like to see a good response to this.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except both the Qur'an and numerous hadith testify to the fact it's the Prophet and his family's intercession that brings a person salvation and entry into Paradise

 

You are very cleverly mixing Tawassul in dua and Shifa'ah, both of  which are translated as intercession. Of course, everyone will need shifa'ah. There is a hadith by the holy Prophet (pbuh) that "Friendship with my ahl al bayt (as) will help you at seven place, On death bed, in the grave, on leaving the grave, when your book of deeds is opened, on counting of thawab and sin, on weighing your accumulated good and bad deeds (meezan), on crossing the bridge of siraat (the "bridge" which is thinner than the edge of a sword. It is not meant to be walked upon, obviously. Ali, Al-Hussain and Bani Hashim will have a camp here and they will recognize their Shias who will then be flown across it by angels)."

 

I look forward and welcome this Shifa'ah type of intercession. I believe everyone else does too. It is necessary even for saints. I don't think anyone here mentioned Shifa'ah intercession except yourself Mr. Jinn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just need to say, even to those advocating asking a prophet or imam no longer physically present to pray to Allah swt for us, don't you also admit many people directly ask the imams a.s to grant them children, and directly ask them for risq, safety, protection  - rather than simply praying to Allah swt for them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an assumption. What do you consider proof of this?

 

Imam Ali  said: “He who dies from among us is not dead, and he who decays (after dying) from among us does not really decay”

 

--Nahjul Balagha Sermon 87

 

It has been narrated to us from Muawiya Bin Hakeem, from Al-Husayn Bin Ali Al-Washa, who has said: Abu Al-Hassan Al-Reza said to me in Khurasan, "I saw the Messenger of Allah (saww) over here and offered my to Him."

 

--Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 6, Chapter. 5, Hadees.1

 

Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;

 

--Surah 3:169

 

And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

 

--Surah 2:154

 

 

 

:)
And do you have contact with "their living spirits"? Where in the Qur'an are we told to contact their "living spirits"?

 

And Narrated Al-Sam'aani from Amir Al-Momineen Ali bin Abi Talib :

 
"That a Bedouin came three days after the burial of the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and his family) and threw himself on the Holy grave and put the soil on his head and said, "O Messenger of Allah (saww), You said and we heard what you said. And you made us aware about Allah and We became aware about You. And it was revealed on you "If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto You...". I have wronged myself and have come to You, so pray for forgiveness for me to my Lord." Then came a call from the grave, verily He has forgiven you."
 
--Al-Mazar - Shahid Al-Awwal, Pg. 4
 
From Ziarate-e-Jamiya:
 
"Ya Wali Allah! Indeed there are sins between God - the mighty and tremendous - and me, that cannot be removed except by your pleasure; so by the one who has trusted you with His secret, and has made you shepherds in the affairs of His creation; and has conformed obeying you with obeying Him; seek the pardon of my sins; and you are my interceders." 

 
 

يَا وَلِيَّ اللَّهِ إِنَّ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ ذُنُوباً لاَ يَأْتِي عَلَيْهَا إِلاَّ رِضَاكُمْ ‏فَبِحَقِّ مَنِ ائْتَمَنَكُمْ عَلَى سِرِّهِ وَاسْتَرْعَاكُمْ أَمْرَ خَلْقِهِ وَقَرَنَ طَاعَتَكُمْ

بِطَاعَتِهِ ‏لَمَّا اسْتَوْهَبْتُمْ ذُنُوبِي وَكُنْتُمْ شُفَعَائِي

 
 
Even if it bothers you to ask the Prophets or the Imams from California, there can be absolutely no denying the permissibility of asking them while in the presence of their graves. Why bother with this if their spirits are as dead and lifeless as their bodies?
 
Not only that, but we also have several narrations such as these and others that are very similar
 
Prophet Mohammad (saww) said to Imam Ali , "O' Ali , If We were not there, then Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì would not have created Adam and Hawa (sa) and the heaven and the hell and the sky and the earth."
 
--Elal al-Sharae - Shaikh Sadooq, Vol. 1, Pg. 5
 
Imam Ali (as) said:  Be it known that I am a slave of Allah, the brother of His messenger and his first confirmer. I confirmed his truth when Adam lay between the spirit and the body. Then, I am his first confirmer truth among you people. We are the first and we are the last. And we are his special ones with distinction, and we are his sincere ones. And I am his cousin, and his successor, and his trustee and possessor of his confidence and secret. I have been given the understanding of the Book, and (blessed with) sound judgement and decision, and the knowledge about the generations and the relations.
 
--Al-Amaali, Assembly 1, Narration 3; Shaykh Mufid
 
Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubayd from Muhammad ibn Shu‘ayb from ‘Imran ibn Ishaq al-Za‘farani from Muhammad ibn Marwan who has said the following.

"I heard abu ‘Abd Allah  say, ‘Allah has created us from the light of His greatness. Thereafter He shaped our form from a preserved and hidden clay under the Throne. Then He made that light to reside in that clay. We were then a Nooraani (light) creature of the human being species. He has not placed anything as a share from that which we were created in anyone else. He has created the spirits of our Shi‘a from our clay and their bodies from a preserved and hidden clay from below that clay. Allah has not placed anything as a share of that which they are created in anyone except the prophets. Therefore, our followers and we became the people. The rest of the people became riffraff for the fire and to the fire."

 
--Al-Kaafi, Vol.1 Pg. 389
 
Anas relates that the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.) said:

O uncle, when Allah wanted to create us He originated a sentence which created light, then He said another word which created the spirit. He then placed the spirit in the light and created Me, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain. We glorified and purified Allah at the time when there was no mention of it (that is we did not learn them from anyone).

When Allah willed to create His Creation He split my light and created the throne from it. So throne is from my light and my light is from Allah and my light is superior to the throne.

Then Allah split the light of my brother Ali and created angels from it. Thus angels are from the light of Ali and Ali?s light is from Allah and superior to angels.

Allah then split the light of my daughter Fatima and created the skies and earth from it. Thus, the skies and the earth are created from her light and her light is from Allah and superior to the skies and the earth.

Allah then split the light of my son Hasan and created sun and moon from it. Therefore the sun and the moon are form the light of Hasan and his light is from Allah and is superior to the sun and the moon.

Allah then split the light of my son Husain and created paradise and its fairies (Hoor al-Een) from it. So paradise and its fairies are from the light of Husain and his light is from Allah and superior to the paradise and its fairies.

--Behaarul Anwaar Vol 57, Pg 191,193, Hadith 139

 
Janabe Jabir Jofi narrates from Imam Muhammad Baqir (a.s.) that Imam (a.s.) said:

O Jabir, (in the beginning) Allah and none else existed. There was neither a known thing nor an unknown thing. Allah created Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w.a.) before anyone else and with him He created us with His great light. We were before Him in shades of green light. Neither sky existed nor earth, neither place nor night, neither sun nor moon. Our light was illuminated by Him in the same manner as the rays of the sun are illuminated by the Sun. We were glorifying and praising Allah and busy worshipping Him all the time. Then Allah initiated the creation by bringing creatures into existence. He created place and wrote on it:

There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, Ali is the chief of the believers and his successor, and I helped and supported him through Ali.

Allah then created the throne and wrote the same on it. He then created the skies and wrote the same on it. He then created the heaven and the hell and wrote the same on them. Allah then created the angels and placed them in the skies; Allah then created the air and inscribed the same on it. Allah then created the Jinn and made them inhabit the air. Then Allah created the earth and wrote the same on it. Due to these words the skies stand firm without pillars, and the earth remains secure. Allah then created Adam from the soil of the earth?We therefore are the first creation of Allah and first among the creation to worship and glorify Him. We are the cause of the creation and the source of glorification and worship for angels and men?.

--Behaarul Anwaar Vol 57, Pg 169, Hadith 112

 
 
Imam Ali(as) addressing his companions said:

"What do you accept, that my brother the Holy Prophet(s.aww) said, I and my Ahlebait(a.s) we were each and everyone of us One Noor(Light) that were walking in presence of Allah(swt) 14000 years before Adam(a.s) was created and when Adam(a.s) was created this light was put on his back and brought to this earth. Then this light was put in the boat through Nooh(as) and then in the fire through Ibrahim(as) and after that transferred on highly esteeemed backs........................."

--Kitab Sulaym ibn Qays al Hilaali, Hadees 11

 
Imam Musa Kazim (a.s) while taking about Meraj and referring to Prophet Muhammad (saww) and Imam Ali (a.s) says:“These 2 are apparently (Externally) Human and their Batin (internal) is related to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. They have come amongst people in their form (appearance) so that people can see them." 
 

Imam Musa Kazim (a.s) continues saying that this has been mentioned in the following verse of the Holy Quran:

 

"If we had made it an angel, We should have sent him as a man, and We should certainly have dressed them the way they are dressed up." [6:9] 

 
--Bihar Al Anwar Vol.35 H.24, Tafseer-e-Burhaan Vol.3 H.7, Taawil-al-Ayat Vol.1 Pg:398

 

The frequency of these narrations and even the fact that an arguably more rationalist minded sheikh such as al-Mufid has no trouble following them and that out of all his disagreements with Sheikh Sudooq this was not one them, we shouldn't be prevented from saying the Ahlul Bayt and the Prophets, peace upon them all, already existed in such a state before their physical or human incarnations that they acted as intermediaries. When I said their "living spirits" I was referring to that aspect of their nature that transcends their mere human forms and is not limited by it. If you really want to get esoteric with it, you could say that the spirits of Ahlul Bayt exist within us and are the force through which Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì gives us life.

 

It has been narrated to us by Muhammad Bin Abdul Jabbar, from Al-Hassan Bin Al-Hassan Al-Lu’lui, from Ahmad Bin Al-Hassan Al-Maysami, from Saleh, from Abu Hamza who said:

"I was in the presence of Ali Bin Al-Husayn (as), and there were sparrows on the wall, across from the courtyard. He  said: ‘O Abu Hamza, do you know what they are saying? They are saying that there is a time for them in which to ask in strength. O

Abu Hamza, do not sleep before sunrise, for I dislike that for you. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì Divides in that time the sustenance of the servants, and on Our hands, it is carried out."

 
--Basaair Al Darajaat, Vol. 7, Chapter. 14, Hadees. 9

 

 

:)

OK. Do you (or anyone here for that matter) believe that when the Companions didnt see the Prophet (for what ever reason; he did have pre-modern state and religion to run) they were busy making dua to him in his absense and asking him to pray to Allah for them?

 

From what it seems to me, you're conflating two entirely different things and presenting it all as 'intercession'. I don't see how asking a prophet in your presence to ask Allah to improve your affair is the same as calling upon that prophet (or their "living spirit") centuries, perhaps even thousands of years, after they returned to their Lord?

 

Certainly some hadith suggested just that

 

It was narrated from 'Uthman bin Hunaif that a blind man came to the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and said: "Pray to Allah to heal me." He said: "If you wish to store your reward for the Hereafter, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you." He said: "Supplicate." So he told him to perform ablution and do it well, to pray two Rak'ah, and to say this supplication: "Allahumma lnni as'aluka wa atawajjahu ilaika bimuhammadin nabiyyir-rahma. Ya Muhammadu inni qad tawajjahtu bika ila rabbi fi hajati hadhihi lituqda. Allahumma fashaffi’hu fiya (O Allah, I ask of You and I turn my face towards You by virtue of the intercession of Muhammad the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad, I have turned to my Lord by virtue of your intercession concerning this need of mine so that it may be met. O Allah, accept his intercession concerning me)".

 

--Ibn Majah transmitted it in his Sunan, book of Iqamat al-salat wa al-sunnat (establishing prayer and its sunnahs)[Page 197, Hadith No#1385)

 

http://www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57

 

The above is a Sunni narration but was accepted by many classical scholars of the Sunnis and Shi'a. It at least provides some of the most telling evidence that the Holy Prophet (as) himself was teaching people how to perform direct forms of tawassul that could be done regardless of his physical prsence or lack thereof

 

There's also the case of Hazrat Owais al-Qarni (as), who is held by us as one of the supporters of Ali's divine right and venerated by Sunni and Shi'a alike. It has always been accepted that he developed an actual telepathic connection with the Prophet (as) through his piety and faith even though he resided all the way in Yemen and hadn't even met the Prophet (as) in person. This is so accepted that within Sufism, there's even a method named after Owais known as the Owaisi method which refers to an individual's telepathic connection to the spirit of the Prophet or to an Order's abandonment of a central figurehead or sheikh in favor of cultivating such a direct spiritual relationship with the Prophet (as).

 

This doesn't mean there was no benefit in visiting the Prophet in person,  but it's the same principle by which people ask the Prophet for help and yet still visit his grave where his pure body is buried believing that if they ask the same things of him there or if they perform salat there, they are more likely to be blessed. This is because the place where is his body, whether alive or dead, resides is a focal point of barakah. But some of the Prophet's barakah can be received even as far away as China or America.

 

:)

Sure, in both cases the one youre calling on is 'interceeding' but youre assuming this to be correct when there is no textual precedent for it. I think this is what some are overlooking. 

 

وَأَنَّ المَساجِدَ لِلَّهِ فَلا تَدعوا مَعَ اللَّهِ أَحَدًا

The places of worship belong to Allahso do not invoke anyone along with Allah[72:18]

 

The word that is usually translated as invoke or call in this verse and others of its like is typically a form of the word "du'a"

 

Waanna almasajida lillahi falatadAAoo maAAa Allahi ahada

 

Which we also find in this verse relating to Noah (as):

 

Qala rabbi innee daAAawtu qawmeelaylan wanahara

 

He (Noah) said: "O my Lord! I have called to my People night and day:

 

No one says this verse means Noah was worshiping others besides Allah

 

The verse which you quoted is specifically referring to the calling upon of other beings as absolute realities besides God or outside of him, which contradicts tawhid and implies, if not explicitly states, that such beings are somehow gods with a charge over affairs independent from the power and overriding authority of God ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. All of such verses need to be understood as relating specifically to the worship of other gods or the taking of God's creatures as being God or a god. In many places, Allah speaks of the pleasure, will or rights of Himself "and His Prophet"  and some verses such as 8:17, the actions of Allah and His Prophet (as) are in fact conflated and given no distinction:

 

It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself: for Allah is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things).

 

When verses in the Qur'an speak of "calling on none but God" or "not invoking anyone besides God" they are actually including in this the prophets (nabiyin) and saints (awliya) as part and parcel of "calling upon only God," because when one calls upon the prophets or awliya for aid with sincere and right understanding, one is calling upon Allah indirectly through their intermediation between Allah and themselves, and not on anything "outside/besides" Allah because I don't recognize anything outside of the unity of Allah as having any power save by His own indominatable will.

 

These verses aren't meant to be interpreted literally because then by such a literal interpretation, whenever the prophets in the Qur'an "call" their people, they are committing shirk. Those verses are meant to be interpreted in an allegorical fashion in which they are referring specifically to the worship of false gods and idols, and are including in the "call to/upon Allah" the calling upon his elite servants/friends for their intercession with Him and their petitioning Him for the right or permission to provide us aid, because no aid comes to us from Allah except by their hands, because otherwise would contradict the purity and transcendant nature of Allah's essence

 

Narrated Muhammad bin Isa, from Yunus bin Abd al-Rahman, from some companions from Abi Abdillah Imam Sadiq (as):

 
"Nothing comes from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì unless its beginning from the Prophet (saww) then Amir al-Mumineen (as) and then one by one and our last one is not more knowledgeable than our first."
 
--Basaair al-Darajat, Pg. 116

 

I just need to say, even to those advocating asking a prophet or imam no longer physically present to pray to Allah swt for us, don't you also admit many people directly ask the imams a.s to grant them children, and directly ask them for risq, safety, protection  - rather than simply praying to Allah swt for them?

 

No, because no Shi'a calls on them expecting them to do so by their own independent and absolute power, because they have no absolute or independent power but only perform what they can with the power Allah has given them as trust from himself to perform and manifest His own will and their merit and favoritism with Allah grants them the right to petition Allah for practically anything on our behalf.

 

And it isn't necessary to chant Allah's name a million times for Him to know our intentions when we ask Hazrat Abbas (as) to heal us and it doesn't matter what it looks like to you or anyone else. Certain du'a addressed more directly to Allah may be more beneficial on certain occasions, but both forms of tawassul are equally permissible and effective in their own ways.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are very cleverly mixing Tawassul in dua and Shifa'ah, both of  which are translated as intercession. Of course, everyone will need shifa'ah. There is a hadith by the holy Prophet (pbuh) that "Friendship with my ahl al bayt (as) will help you at seven place, On death bed, in the grave, on leaving the grave, when your book of deeds is opened, on counting of thawab and sin, on weighing your accumulated good and bad deeds (meezan), on crossing the bridge of siraat (the "bridge" which is thinner than the edge of a sword. It is not meant to be walked upon, obviously. Ali, Al-Hussain and Bani Hashim will have a camp here and they will recognize their Shias who will then be flown across it by angels)."

 

I look forward and welcome this Shifa'ah type of intercession. I believe everyone else does too. It is necessary even for saints. I don't think anyone here mentioned Shifa'ah intercession except yourself Mr. Jinn.

but there is a verse i Quran in which others ask prophet to pray for their forgiveness. More than that, Allah orders them to ask the prophet to pray to Him on their behalf.

 

 

4_64.png
Sahih International
And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
 

 

This verse along with ahadith that states that prayer of a believer for his brother in secret is accepted prayer, among others, all contradicts the belief that one should ask Allah himself only and directly without an intercession or intermediary.

This is not the case. This is the claim of semi educated individuals and reactionists from other sects who may make these big generalisations without thinking.

Allah accepted from us to pray to Him directly and He accepted from us to ask other individuals to pray on our behalf. He made this way as a way of increasing probability of accepting Du'a.

Dose this mean that we believe that Allah dose not hear us if we prayed directly? No.

Dose that mean that we believe that Allah took partners who help Him determine whither this person deserves to be forgiven or not? No.

This is simply seeking the forgiveness of Allah through ways that Allah made legal. He accepts from us to ask others to pray to Him on our behalf.

 

Of course, I'm not touching the topic of seeking intermediary from dead, nor I'm about to prove anything beside this one sole point : It is utter ignorance to say that Allah dose not accept from us the du'a that we make through intermediaries like our believing brothers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This verse along with ahadith that states that prayer of a believer for his brother in secret is accepted prayer, among others, all contradicts the belief that one should ask Allah himself only and directly without an intercession or intermediary.

This is not the case. This is the claim of semi educated individuals and reactionists from other sects who may make these big generalisations without thinking.

Allah accepted from us to pray to Him directly and He accepted from us to ask other individuals to pray on our behalf. He made this way as a way of increasing probability of accepting Du'a.

Dose this mean that we believe that Allah dose not hear us if we prayed directly? No.

Dose that mean that we believe that Allah took partners who help Him determine whither this person deserves to be forgiven or not? No.

This is simply seeking the forgiveness of Allah through ways that Allah made legal. He accepts from us to ask others to pray to Him on our behalf.

 

Of course, I'm not touching the topic of seeking intermediary from dead, nor I'm about to prove anything beside this one sole point : It is utter ignorance to say that Allah dose not accept from us the du'a that we make through intermediaries like our believing brothers.

Semi-educated individuals indeed...

Anyway, rather than bother refuting all the nonsense you have posted, I'll simply point out that even if we accept everything you claim here, you still won't have proved your earlier contention that you can't be a Shia unless you pray through the ahlulbayt [a], and hence you should have kept quiet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Semi-educated individuals indeed...

Anyway, rather than bother refuting all the nonsense you have posted, I'll simply point out that even if we accept everything you claim here, you still won't have proved your earlier contention that you can't be a Shia unless you pray through the ahlulbayt [a], and hence you should have kept quiet.

pardon ? 0.0

 

yes. << you can be a shia without believing in tawassul

hence why i referenced back to the usul of religion or principles of faith ....

 

a shia is follower of ahlulbayt. so you should work hard to follow their steps, then you are a shia (a follower).

 

what is fundamental is the principles of faith. Other minor beliefs are not mandatory, sometimes you need proof, sometimes proof isn't enough to convince you, sometimes you just can't make your head around some beliefs. That won't make you non shia. Bu these principles of faith are the basics that should be believed in

http://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-husayn-vahid-khorasani

 
Edited by Chaotic Muslem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

pardon ? 0.0

My mistake. I thought I was still reading Saintly_Jinn's incredibly long post, and was referring to him.

Referring to your post though:

Of course, I'm not touching the topic of seeking intermediary from dead, nor I'm about to prove anything beside this one sole point : It is utter ignorance to say that Allah dose not accept from us the du'a that we make through intermediaries like our believing brothers.

Nobody has ever claimed that you can't ask others to pray for you. Even Salafis would have no problem with that.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My mistake. I thought I was still reading Saintly_Jinn's incredibly long post, and was referring to him.

Referring to your post though:

Nobody has ever claimed that you can't ask others to pray for you. Even Salafis would have no problem with that.

of course they don't but they still claim that one cannot pray to Allah through intermediary. In their books they make this distinction but in their vocal loud public speeches they make it as if only praying directly in all instances is whats allowed.

This claim is wrong. They will argue over dead vs alive intermediary difference but this from shia theology point of view is even more problematic.

 

anyways. Point made, Quran allowed the prophet as intermediary to reach Allah mercy and repentance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

of course they don't but they still claim that one cannot pray to Allah through intermediary. In their books they make this distinction but in their vocal loud public speeches they make it as if only praying directly in all instances is whats allowed.

This claim is wrong. They will argue over dead vs alive intermediary difference but this from shia theology point of view is even more problematic.

 

anyways. Point made, Quran allowed the prophet as intermediary to reach Allah mercy and repentance.

You are making a point against something that nobody has claimed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my humble opinion,there is a HUGE difference between asking someone I know to pray to God on my behalf and trying to communicate with someone passed away who dwells in barzaq and with whom people who are in this world cannot interact in any way!

Otherwise,it would be necromancy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

intercession = shifaa in Arabic, and it does occur in the quran, as well as Hadiths. Therefore, Intercession per se is part of Islam and our beliefs.

 

But what the OP probably means is whether it is documented in the way of the prophet and ahlulbayt that they ever asked martyred people for shifaa .. then the answer is clearly no.

 

the same goes in the quran .. is it ever documented in the quran that anybody asks martyred people for shifaa (other than perhaps examples of people who are scolded in the quran)? no.

 

therefore this issue is clear, that it's an innovation, away from the tradition of ahlulbayt and away from the even more important guidance of the Quran.

 

 

so, to conclude:

 

intercession is part of Islam, and asking for it should be within the boundaries of the Quran and ahlulbayt.

Edited by peace seeker II

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

intercession = shifaa in Arabic, and it does occur in the quran, as well as Hadiths. Therefore, Intercession per se is part of Islam and our beliefs.

 

But what the OP probably means is whether it is documented in the way of the prophet and ahlulbayt that they ever asked martyred people for shifaa .. then the answer is a clear no.

 

the same goes in the quran .. is it ever documented in the quran once even .. that anybody asks martyred people for shifaa? no.

 

therefore this issue makes it clear, that it's an innovation, away from the tradition of ahlulbayt and away from the even more important guidance of the Quran.

 

 

so, to conclude:

 

intercession is part of Islam, and asking for it should be within the boundaries of the Quran and ahlulbayt. We follow their way. And one does not leave the other.

brother

 

there are many mistakes in your post

shafa'ah is done in the day of judgment 

it isn't reserved to ahlulbayt.... sorry to break that to you. And Quran isn't the only source of religion, this is ahmaddyiah. Our religion is Quran plus ahlulbayt traditions.

 

Also, there is shafa'ah then there is tawassul. The brother was clearly asking about tawassul. It is a concept and practice that has been discussed and mentioned in DOZENS upon dozens of books in almost all schools of islam. The schools have their own evidence to support such practice. 

 

Now innovation is to bring something from your own pocket. These schools with their own scholars did not bring that from their own pockets.

 

im not even going to argue with you but your post was strikingly ignorant regarding shafa'ah and tawassul for someone who spent many hours arguing many members of this site about this topic.

 

peace.

Edited by Chaotic Muslem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...