Flat Earth Concept

[Iskandarovich]

Salam,

 

Do muslims also believe in a Flat Earth?

[guest050817]

We catagorically do not.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

No, not really, the Flat Earth theory is usually a Judeo-Christian thing, totally nonsense like the Hollow Earth theory.

[Ali_Hussain]

wa 'alaykum assalam,

 

Many Muslim scholars past and present - well until recently at least, but I'm sure you can still find some - held the view that the earth is flat, google it, or search on youtube.

[Renaissance_Man]

A few ignorant people like Shaykh Bin Baaz of Saudi Arabia do believe in a flat earth but they aren't worth bothering with.  The vast majority of Muslims do not ascribe the flat-earth theory.

[Cyrax]

Ibn Hazm (453H/1064AD) narrated a consensus among the Muslim scholars that the earth is round.  Here is a fantastic article written quoting from scholars as far back as 200 hijri stating the earth is round.

 

http://islamstory.com/ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%85%D9%88%D9%86_%D9%88%D8%A5%D8%AB%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AA_%D9%83%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%A9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B1%D8%B6

 

 

A few ignorant people like Shaykh Bin Baaz of Saudi Arabia do believe in a flat earth but they aren't worth bothering with.  The vast majority of Muslims do not ascribe the flat-earth theory.

 

Fear Allah akhi, this is Ramadan,  Shaykh bin Baz رحمه الله said the sun rotated around the earth, not that the earth was flat.  Read this بارك الله فيك https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_Baz#Cosmology

 

Here is an interesting quote, "According to Lacey, bin Baz changed his mind about the earth's flatness after talking to Prince Sultan bin Salman Al Saud who had spent time in a space shuttle flight in 1985. ^[27]

However, Malise Ruthven and others state that it is incorrect to report that Ibn Baz believed "the earth is flat"^[28] Professor Werner Ende, a German expert on ibn Baz's fatwas, states he has never asserted this.^[29] Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî calls those that attribute the flat earth view to ibn Baz "rumor mongers". He points out that ibn Baz issued a fatwa declaring that the Earth is round,^[30][31] and, indeed, in 1966 ibn Baz wrote "The quotation I cited [in his original article] from the speech of the great scholar Ibn Al-Qayyim (may Allah be merciful to him) includes proof that the earth is round."^[32]"

Edited July 7, 2015 by Cyrax

[Al-Hassan]

وعليكم السلام

Most of our scholars from now until the start of the major Ghaybah all most probably believed that the earth is round and not flat. We can generally learn this from their works where they do confirm that it's round. For example, Shaykh al-Mufeed in his Awa'il al-Maqalat explicitly stated that the earth was round and not flat. However, he also stated that it's at the centre of the universe and stationary but this is cleary wrong. It's most likely that the other Imami scholars living during the time of Mufeed and those that came after him held a similar view as Mufeed with an exception of a few maybe holding a contrary one.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Al-Hassan

[Iskandarovich]

Salam, 

Did the muslims already believe that the earth is a globe before scientific discoveries? Or is this not really a belief from Islam itself and do we  just adapt with the latest scientific trends?

Edited July 7, 2015 by Iskandarovich

[Cyrax]

Salam, 

Did the muslims already believe that the earth is a globe before scientific discoveries? Or is this not really a belief from Islam itself and do we  just adapt with the latest scientific trends?

Read the article I posted, ibn Hazm narrated an Islamic consesus on this issue around 200 years before Copernicus

[Iskandarovich]

وعليكم السلام

Most of our scholars from now until the start of the major Ghaybah all most probably believed that the earth is round and not flat. We can generally learn this from their works where they do confirm that it's round. For example, Shaykh al-Mufeed in his Awa'il al-Maqalat explicitly stated that the earth was round and not flat. However, he also stated that it's at the centre of the universe and stationary but this is cleary wrong. It's most likely that the other Imami scholars living during the time of Mufeed and those that came after him held a similar view as Mufeed with an exception of a few maybe holding a contrary one.

I see but Salafis always have to be diffirent (in beliefs and all) to distinct themselves from the mass that 'went astray'. 

[Cyrax]

وعليكم السلام

Most of our scholars from now until the start of the major Ghaybah all most probably believed that the earth is round and not flat. We can generally learn this from their works where they do confirm that it's round. For example, Shaykh al-Mufeed in his Awa'il al-Maqalat explicitly stated that the earth was round and not flat. However, he also stated that it's at the centre of the universe and stationary but this is cleary wrong. It's most likely that the other Imami scholars living during the time of Mufeed and those that came after him held a similar view as Mufeed with an exception of a few maybe holding a contrary one.

Good job editing your post 

 

I see but Salafis always have to be diffirent (in beliefs and all) to distinct themselves from the mass that 'went astray'. 

He edited the post before you quoted it ...

[Iskandarovich]

Read the article I posted, ibn Hazm narrated an Islamic consesus on this issue around 200 years before Copernicus

Do you have an english translation of it?

Edited July 7, 2015 by Iskandarovich

[Al-Hassan]

Good job editing your post 

 

He edited the post before you quoted it ...

  

Ibn Hazm (453H/1064AD) narrated a consensus among the Muslim scholars that the earth is round.  Here is a fantastic article written quoting from scholars as far back as 200 hijri stating the earth is round.

 

http://islamstory.com/ar/المسلمون_وإثبات_كروية_الأرض

 

 

 

Fear Allah akhi, this is Ramadan,  Shaykh bin Baz رحمه الله said the sun rotated around the earth, not that the earth was flat.  Read this بارك الله فيك https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Aziz_ibn_Baz#Cosmology

 

Here is an interesting quote, "According to Lacey, bin Baz changed his mind about the earth's flatness after talking to Prince Sultan bin Salman Al Saud who had spent time in a space shuttle flight in 1985. ^[27]

However, Malise Ruthven and others state that it is incorrect to report that Ibn Baz believed "the earth is flat"^[28] Professor Werner Ende, a German expert on ibn Baz's fatwas, states he has never asserted this.^[29] Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî calls those that attribute the flat earth view to ibn Baz "rumor mongers". He points out that ibn Baz issued a fatwa declaring that the Earth is round,^[30][31] and, indeed, in 1966 ibn Baz wrote "The quotation I cited [in his original article] from the speech of the great scholar Ibn Al-Qayyim (may Allah be merciful to him) includes proof that the earth is round."^[32]"

Yes my mistake, it's been a while since I looked into this issue and I got mixed up between the earth being flat and rotating sound the sun. Hence where I edited my earlier post when I saw yours.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure about Ibn Baaz specifically or whether your claim of him believing that the earth rotates around the sun is correct, but majority of Salafi contemporary scholars today affirm that the earth does not rotate around the sun. Here is Salih al-Fawzan and Al al-Shaykh affirming this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWx4QkM2X28

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=897uIF0W26g

[Cyrax]

Do you have an english translation of it?

I don't, but I can give you a summary إن شاء الله.

 

The article discusses how long it took the western world to accept that the earth was flat, and how the scientists who discovered it were treated.

 

Then it discusses Ibn Hazm and ar-Razi using Qur'anic arguments to prove the earth is round.  Then they quote from 5 Muslim "Geographers" as early as 885 AD stating the the earth is round.

 

Then it discusses how even some modern Muslim sources claim that the Muslims learned this from the West, despite the fact that not only did we know this at least 700 years before them, but that it wasn't an issue of takfeer and killing for those who agreed or disagreed.

 

والله المستعان

   Yes my mistake, it's been a while since I looked into this issue and I got mixed up between the earth being flat and rotating sound the sun. Hence where I edited my earlier post when I saw yours.

Nevertheless, I'm not sure about Ibn Baaz specifically or whether your claim of him believing that the earth rotates around the sun is correct, but majority of Salafi contemporary scholars today affirm that the earth does not rotate around the sun. Here is Salih al-Fawzan and Al al-Shaykh affirming this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LWx4QkM2X28

 

There is no doubt, unfortunately, that the Saudi scholars are woefully uneducated about science.  However, to claim that the "majority" of Salafis say that is quite a stretch, do the majority from non-Saudi Salafis say that?  Does any Muslim outside of Saudi Arabia actually say that?

[Iskandarovich]

Once a Greek collegue told me that the believers of all religions were responsible for the death of Galileo. I am glad I can put these facts in his face now. 

[Cyrax]

Once a Greek collegue told me that the believers of all religions were responsible for the death of Galileo. I am glad I can put these facts in his face now. 

Unfortunately, it seems like we are responsible for this perception of us; as even we forgot about it.

 

Although, to also be fair, it seems the reason was because we didn't fight and kill each other over it like the Europeans did; so it was never as big of a deal.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Cyrax

[Al-Hassan]

There is no doubt, unfortunately, that the Saudi scholars are woefully uneducated about science.  However, to claim that the "majority" of Salafis say that is quite a stretch, do the majority from non-Saudi Salafis say that?  Does any Muslim outside of Saudi Arabia actually say that?

Saleh al-Fawzan and Al al-Shaykh are one of the leading Salafi clerics today and not your average cleric. Their students and less qualified clerics might hold the correct view but it still does not change the fact that they revere(Islamqa numerously quotes Saleh Al-Fawzan) to those aforementioned clerics and consider them almost close to the top in the hierarchy of Salafism. For them to make these claims and argue for them is like us having Sayed Sistani or Sayed Khamanie come out and say similar statements.

[Cyrax]

Saleh al-Fawzan and Al al-Shaykh are one of the leading Salafi clerics today and not your average cleric. Their students and less qualified clerics might hold the correct view but it still does not change the fact that they revere(Islamqa numerously quotes Saleh Al-Fawzan) to those aforementioned clerics and consider them almost close to the top in the hierarchy of Salafism. For them to make these claims and argue for them is like us having Sayed Sistani or Sayed Khamanie come out and say similar statements.

No it doesn't, because Islam, and by extension Salafiyyah doesn't have clerics/maraaji3.  Those may speak for some Saudis, but they don't speak for the entire movement; Muslim or otherwise.  Take for example al-Albani who didn't hold this position, whose views more accurately reflect non-Saudi Salafis.

 

Again, their views are like that because of their ignorance of science, not because of their Salafi views.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Cyrax

[Al-Hassan]

No it doesn't, because Islam, and by extension Salafiyyah doesn't have clerics/maraaji3.  Those may speak for some Saudis, but they don't speak for the entire movement; Muslim or otherwise.  Take for example al-Albani who didn't hold this position, whose views more accurately reflect non-Saudi Salafis.

 

Again, their views are like that because of their ignorance of science, not because of their Salafi views.

It's cleary not solely because of their ignorance in science but also to some extent due to their methadology in interpreting certain Ayat. Look at that video of Saleh Fawzan I posted above and just see how he justifies his position by using Ayat 258 of Surat al-Baqarah as proof.

[Cyrax]

It's cleary not solely because of their ignorance in science but also to some extent due to their methadology in interpreting certain Ayat. Look at that video of Saleh Fawzan I posted above and just see how he justifies his position by using Ayat 258 of Surat al-Baqarah as proof.

Well, if that's the case, then what was the reason most Shi'a scholars from the time of the Ghayba believed the earth was stationary and at the center of the universe?  Did they use Salafi methodology when reading that Ayah?  And the Salafis that are not as qualified, according to you, are they using a non-Salafi way of interpreting the Qur'an?

 

Just be just akhi, we have a common enemy on this one; no need to let sectarianism cloud your judgement.

[Al-Hassan]

Well, if that's the case, then what was the reason most Shi'a scholars from the time of the Ghayba believed the earth was stationary and at the center of the universe?  Did they use Salafi methodology when reading that Ayah?  And the Salafis that are not as qualified, according to you, are they using a non-Salafi way of interpreting the Qur'an?

 

Just be just akhi, we have a common enemy on this one; no need to let sectarianism cloud your judgement.

Yes. We say that they wrong in that case. However, you cannot compare a theologian today with one from the 10th century. Back then, the knowledge in science and specifically astrophysics was limited unlike today, that's one. Plus no Shi'i Imami scholar today holds that view. Secondly, my emphasis is on how these aforementioned clerics persist on holding on to those incorrect exegesis of these Ayat and not willing to change them. I have no problem if they initially held the wrong opinion and after seeing the facts brought clear to them - change their views based on that. But when you have Salih al-Fawzan and others who share his view come out and say(as shown in the video): "The Sun rotates around the earth, the Quran and Sunnah clearly say this and we must take what Allah says over what these unislamic theories say otherwise" - it shows how much intellectually non-stimulative their understanding of Islam is(almost like how the Catholic Church in the 16th century staunchly opposed Galileo when he proposed the geocentric theory) and that their methodology in interpreting the Quran is static and not open for reinterpretation when new challenges are faced with it. So it's not just a matter of being ignorant in the astrophysics but also an unwillingness to reconsider their methodology in interpreting certain Ayat when new theories and ideas come to challenge their fallible exegesis of these Ayat.

[Tany]

There is no proof that the place we live in is a globe, but I can give you 100 proofs that the earth is not a globe.

Had anyone that's not part of the space agencies of this world seen the globe earth? It was only 500 years or so ago that everyone believed the earth was flat until the freemasons invented the globe earth theory which is no accepted as fact. Any thoughts contrary to that and you are ridiculed.

Do some research people.

[Al-Hassan]

There is no proof that the place we live in is a globe, but I can give you 100 proofs that the earth is not a globe.

Had anyone that's not part of the space agencies of this world seen the globe earth? It was only 500 years or so ago that everyone believed the earth was flat until the freemasons invented the globe earth theory which is no accepted as fact. Any thoughts contrary to that and you are ridiculed.

Do some research people.

Nah. It's a globe.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vvbN-cWe0A0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKDPZrCZwA

[Tany]

Nah. It's a globe.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vvbN-cWe0A0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKDPZrCZwA

If you say so.

[A true Sunni]

There is no proof that the place we live in is a globe, but I can give you 100 proofs that the earth is not a globe.

 

 

Can you provide your top 10 proofs that the Earth is not a globe.

[Tany]

Plenty on Google, here's one

lclane2.net/hundreda.html

Best site to use is

ifers.boards.net/

[Ali_Hussain]

Plenty on Google, here's one

lclane2.net/hundreda.html

Best site to use is

ifers.boards.net/

 

Did you have to post a video with a silly rap song? I'm surprised that I made it to 0:58

[Chaotic Muslem]

I think I belong to old school but back in my days to prove that earth is globe or flat, we didn't use YouTube. We used proofs connected to railway not to screens .

What's next?

[Gold_Love]

I am not sure why this question is related to - in some how - being Muslim. 

 

This question cannot be answered- based on the question being  asked- logically because this does not have to do any thing with Muslims as Muslims. 

 

Believing that the earth as flat or not depends on scientific proofs. 

Now, do Muslims take science as a factor to believe in /(to get a proof of)  something? This is the right question. 

 

Look, the first lesson in Philosophy (Love of Wisdom) is this: To make you ask the right question and not "necessarily" to answer your questions. 

Your question is great in its essence but I am afraid to tell you that it needs to be fixed. Could you fix it now? 

[Iskandarovich]

Yes, sure! I do love philopsophy as well but the rules of philosophy aren't a standard for setting up criteria in Islam or in Shiachat.

Maybe you can approach some of the moderators for your problem.

Good luck!

Edited July 12, 2015 by Iskandarovich