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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Clear Refutation Of Fadak

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Did Ali (as) and Fatima (as) consider Fadak to be theirs?

 

 

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349

“When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said:” I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him).” Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadhrat ‘Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to ‘Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:” We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity.” So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.  And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest”.

As we can see from the narration, Imam Ali (as) along with his wife (as) both considered Fadak to be theirs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brother you've taken this Hadith very much out of context. I will post it for you so Insha Allah we can explain what actually is going on in this Hadith. It is a long Hadith so I will make the important parts bold. 

 

 

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:

 
Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distributed among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.
 
As we can see this is 'Umar ibn al-Khattab رضي الله عنه‎ sorting out a dispute between 'Ali رضي الله عنه‎ and al-'Abbas رضي الله عنه‎ over the booty and abandoned properties of Banu Nadir. This is clearly shown in Chapter 15 http://sunnah.com/muslim/32. In fact this has almost nothing to do with Fadak, if you read the full Hadith it seems to imply that Fadak is no longer an issue and has been settled. So it is rather inappropriate to use this Hadith as evidence. 
 

 

Was Ali seen as the best when it comes to judgement and knowledge, and what was his specialization of knowledge according to Sunnis?

 

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يُونُسَ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا سَلَّامٌ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي الصِّدِّيقِ النَّاجِي، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: " أَرْحَمُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ بِهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَقْوَاهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ

قَالَ التِّرْمِذِيّ : هَذَا حَدِيث حسن صَحِيح . وَقَالَ الْحَاكِم : إِسْنَاده صَحِيح عَلَى شَرط الشَّيْخَيْنِ

The prophet said “The most merciful of my ummah is Abu Bakr, the most steadfast on the religion is Umar, the most  sincere is Zayd Ibn Thaabit, and the best judge among them is Ali”.

Tirimizi said :Hasan Sahih. Haakim said: Sahih on the conditions of bukhari and muslim.

 

Sunan Ibn majah

(1 / 55)ح154 ( ... وأقضاهم علي بن أبي طالب ...) ( قال الشيخ الألباني : صحيح

Sunan ibn Majah hadith 1/55, hadith number 154

 “…..And Ali ibn abi talib is the best judge among them…”

Albani said “sahih”. Ibn baz said “sahih.

Brother with all due respect I find it very deceitful that this Hadith is used. Here is the full Hadith to prove my point. 

 

It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that:
The Messenger of Allah said: The most merciful of my Ummah towards my Ummah is Abu Bakr; the one who adheres most sternly to the religion of Allah is 'Umar; the most sincere of them in shyness and modesty is 'Uthman; the best judge is 'Ali bin Abu Talib; the best in reciting the Book of Allah is Ubayy bin Ka'b; the most knowledgeable of what is lawful and unlawful is Mu'adh bin Jabal; and the most knowledgeable of the rules of inheritance (Fara'id) is Zaid bin Thabit. And every nation has a trustworthy guardian, and the trustworthy guardian of this Ummah is Abu 'Ubaidah bin Jarrah."
Nowhere does it say 'Ali رضي الله عنه‎ is more knowledgeable, in fact it says clearly in the areas that I have made bold that he was not as knowledgeable as others in certain areas. A good judge isn't necessarily the most knowledgeable. A good judge is someone who can see the evidence and make a fair and balanced judgement based on that evidence. 

 

مرأة تعتريها نوبات من الجنون: عن أبي ظبيان الجنبي: أن عمر بن الخطاب أُتي بامرأة قد زنت، فأمر برجمها، فذهبوا بها ليرجموها، فلقيهم علي -رضي الله عنه- فقال: ما هذه؟ قالوا: زنت فأمر عمر برجمها، فانتزعها عليّ من أيديهم وردّهم، فرجعوا إلى عمر، فقال: ما ردّكم؟ قالوا: ردنا عليّ، قال: ما فعل هذا عليّ إلاّ لشيء قد علمه، فأرسل إلى عليّ، فجاء وهو شبه المغضب، فقال: مالك رَدَدْتَ هؤلاء؟ قال: أما سمعت النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلم- يقول: "رُفع القلم عن ثلاثة: عن النائم حتى يستيقظ، وعن الصغير حتى يكبر، وعن المُبتلى حتى يعقل؟" قال: بلى، قال عليّ: فإن هذه مبتلاة بني فلان، فلعله أتاها وهو بها، فقال عمر: لا أدري، فلم يرجمها, فقد كان عمر لا يعلم أنها مجنونة.

From Abi Zibyan Al-Janbi that Umar Ibn al-khattab was approached by a woman who committed zina, so he ordered her to be stoned, so they (the group that was ordered) left with her to stone her. Ali radi Allah anhu found them and said: “What is this?" They replied: “She committed fornication so Umar ordered her to be stoned."  So Ali made them return, so when they returned to Umar he (Umar) said “What made you return?” They replied “Ali made us return to you,” then Umar said “He does nothing without knowing”. So Umar sent for Ali, and he came with an angry look. Umar asked him “Why did you return them?” So Ali responded to Umar and said “Have you not heard the prophet (saw) say that the pen is lifted from three? The sleeping person until he awakes, the child until it becomes mature (baaligh), and the insane person until his sanity returns?" So Umar responded in the affirmative then Ali said: “This is the girl from bani fulan who is inflicted with madness”. So Umar said: “ I do not know”. So he did not stone her and Umar did not know that she was insane.

 

أُتي عمر -رضي الله عنه- بامرأة حامل فسألها عمر فاعترفت بالفجور، فأمر بها عمر تُرجم، فلقيها عليّ فقال: ما بال هذه؟ فقالوا: أمر بها أمير المؤمنين أن تُرجم، فردها علي فقال: أأمرت بها أن ترجم؟ قال: نعم، اعترفت عندي بالفجور! قال: هذا سلطانك عليها، فما سلطانك على ما في بطنها؟ قال علي: فلعلك انتهرتها, أو أخفتها؟ قال: قد كان ذاك، قال: أو ما سمعت النبي -صلى الله عليه وسلم- يقول: «لا حد على معترف بعد بلاء، أنه من قيدت أو حبست أو تهددت فلا إقرار له» فخلى عمر سبيلها، ثم قال: عجزت النساء أن تلد مثل علي بن أبي طالب، لولا علي لهلك عمر.

In the well-known famous story, Umar was approached by a pregnant women and he questioned her(strongly), she admitted to adultery so Umar ordered her to be stoned. So Ali found her and said “what is wrong with her?" So they said “Umar has ordered her to be stoned."  So Ali returned them and he said to Umar: “Did you order this woman to be stoned?" He said “Yes, she admitted to adultery!" So Ali said to him “Yes this is your authority upon her, but what about your authority over the one in her stomach?" Then Ali said to him “Perhaps you would have rebuked her or lightened her punishment?" So Umar said “it would have been that." Then Ali responded “Or have you not heard the prophet (saw) say there is no punishment upon the admitter after tragedy/ misfortune/pain has fallen upon them, he who is chained or jailed or threatened then there is no admittance accepted from for him." So Umar opened the way for her and said “Women are not able to give birth to the likes of Ali, and if not for Ali Umar would have perished”.

 

In this Hadith you have unknowingly shot yourself in the foot. Because it is a part of the Shi'ah beliefs that 'Ali was oppressed by 'Umar, but here we see 'Umar allowing him and even requesting him to voice his opinion. Another thing is that 'Umar didn't just ask for 'Ali's advice. He did it with many other companions, here is a good article with an entire list with references to prove it http://twelvershia.net/2013/04/24/ameer-al-mumineen-umar-bin-al-khattab-ra-just-and-god-fearing-ruler-or-oppressive-dictator/ .

 

 

 

Was Fadak the property of Rasulallah (saw) and how was it granted to the prophet (saw) as “fay”?

 

Yes... This is what Sunnis have been saying about Fadak for 1400 years

 

 

Was fadak gifted to Fatima Zahra  (as)?

 

روى ابن عباس، وأبي سعيد الخدري أنه لما نزل قوله تعالى: ((وآت ذا القربى حقه))[ الاسراء:26] دعا رسول الله فاطمة فأعطاها فدك

Ibn Abbas and Abi sa’d al khudri narrates that when the quranic verse “and give the close one his right”. Rasulallah called for Fatima and gave her fadak.

وقد ذكر الحاكم الحسكاني وهو من أعلام القرن الخامس الهجري طرقاً ستة لرواية أبي سعيد الخدري المتقدمة الذكر، وطريقاً واحداً لرواية ابن عباس (راجع شواهد التنزيل 1 / 34، 238، 443).

The book author Haakim Hiskaani and he is one of the best Qur’anic scholars of the fit century he mentions six chains for the narration of Abi sa’d al khudri and a single chain for the narration of Abbas.

 

رواه أيضاً السيوطي في (الدر المنثور) في ذيل تفسير الآية المتقدمة وقال: أخرج البزار وأبو يعلى وابن أبي حاتم وابن مردويه عن أبي سعيد الخدري قال: لما نزلت هذه الآية ((وات ذا القربى حقه)) دعا رسول الله (ص) فاطمة (عليها السلام) فأعطاها فدكاً

Imam as suyuti narrates in this dar al manthur in the appendix of the tafseer of the introduction of the verse, he said “bazaar narrated it along with abu yala and ibn abi haatim and ibn mardawi from abu sa’d al khudri that he said that when the verse was revealed “give the close one his right” the prophet called Fatima and gave her fadak.

At this point it doesn’t matter what the Sunnis narrate, I say this because once we have established that fadak was the property of Rasulallah (saw), we know that he had a right to gift it, as it is not forbidden to gift what is your property.

 

I'd like to see the chain for this please.

 

 

How about the hadith that says that the prophets do not give inheritance found in both Shia books and Sunni books?

 

The hadith that says that prophets do not leave inheritance is in fact an authentic narration. However abu bakr interpreted it incorrectly and out of context, this is why Ali  (as) did not agree with him nor his interpretation. The hadith actually means that the prophets do not leave wealth and land to the scholars of the ummah, but rather they leave knowledge, and this has nothing to do with him leaving inheritance to his family but it is rather speaking about what the prophets leave as a legacy to the scholars. As Imam jafar and other explained from the ulema of Ahlul bayt  (as) that the hadith was speaking about the legacy left to the scholars, not to the family of the prophet (saw).

 

I'd like to please see some evidence for this, because according to the Hadith that you yourself posted, 'Ali and 'Abbas agreed with Abu Bakr's Fatwa. 

 

 

Hadith 1

حدثنـي مـحمد بن سعد، قال: ثنـي أبـي، قال: ثنـي عمي، قال: ثنـي أبـي، عن أبـيه، عن ابن عبـاس، قوله: { وإنّـي خِفْتُ الـمَوَالِـيَ مِنْ وَرَائي } يعنـي بـالـموالـي: الكَلالة الأولـياء أن يرثوه، فوهب الله له يحيى.

Muhammad Sad from his father from his uncle from his father, from his father from ibn abbas “I fear my inheritors from behind me”, he said it means “the inheritors, and the wealth that is inherited when there is not direct heir, so Allah granted him yahya”.

Hadith 2

حدثنا يحيى بن داود الواسطي، قال: ثنا أبو أسامة، عن إسماعيـل، عن أبـي صالـح فـي قوله: { وإنّـي خِفْتُ الـمَوَالِـيَ مِنْ وَرَائي } قال: العصبة.

Yahya from abu usama from ismai’l from Abi salih “I fear my inheritors from behind me” He said “it means the group that inherits wealth when there is no direct heir”.

من هم العصبة في المواريث؟

http://fatwa.islamwe...twaId&Id=133406

 

 

Continuing with the hadith…..

Hadith 3

حدثنا أبو كريب، قال: ثنا جابر بن نوح، عن إسماعيـل، عن أبـي صالـح فـي قوله { وإنّـي خِفْتُ الـمَوَالِـيَ مِنْ وَرَائي } قال: خاف موالـيَ الكلالة.

Abu Kareeb from jabir from ismail from abi salih {I fear my inheritors from behind me} he said it means “ the inheritance of wealth from the ones who are not direct heirs”.

Hadith 4

حدثنا مـجاهد بن موسى، قال: ثنا يزيد، قال: أخبرنا إسماعيـل بن أبـي خالد، عن أبـي صالـح بنـحوه.

Mujahid from yazid from ismail from abi khalid from abi salih, same as above.

Hadith 5

حدثنـي يعقوب، قال: ثنا هشيـم، قال: أخبرنا إسماعيـل بن أبـي خالد، عن أبـي صالـح { وإنّـي خِفْتُ الـمَوَالِـيَ مِنْ وَرَائي } قال: يعنـي الكلالة.

Yaqub from hasheem from Ismail from khalid, same as above.

Hadith 6

 

حدثنـي مـحمد بن عمرو، قال: ثنا أبو عاصم، قال: ثنا عيسى وحدثنـي الـحارث، قال: ثنا الـحسن، قال: ثنا ورقاء، جميعاً عن ابن أبـي نـجيح، عن مـجاهد فـي قول الله: { خِفْتُ الـمَوَالِـيَ مِنْ وَرَائي } قال: العَصَبة.

Muhammad ibn amru from abu aasim from isa from haarith from al hassan from warqa all together from ibn abi najeeh from mujahid, same as above.

Hadith 7

حدثنا القاسم، قال: ثنا الـحسين، قال: ثنـي حجاج، عن ابن جريج، عن مـجاهد، مثله.

Qaasim from Hussein from hijaaj from ibn jareeh from mujahid, same as above.

Hadith 8

حدثنا الـحسن، قال: أخبرنا عبد الرزاق، قال: أخبرنا معمر، عن قتادة، قوله: { وإنّـي خِفْتُ الـمَوَالِـيَ مِنْ وَرَائي } قال: العصبة.

Al Hassan from Abdurazzaq from muammar from qatada, same as above.

Hadith 9

حدثنا أبو كريب، قال: ثنا جابر بن نوح، عن إسماعيـل، عن أبـي صالـح، قوله { يَرِثُنِـي وَيَرِثُ مِنْ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ } يقول: يرث مالـي، ويرث من آل يعقوب النبوّة.

Abu kareeb from haaij ibn nuh from ismail from abi salih he said it means “inherit my wealth (Zakariyya) and from the family of Jacob prophet hood.

Hadith 10

حدثنا مـجاهد، قال: ثنا يزيد، قال: أخبرنا إسماعيـل، عن أبـي صالـح فـي قوله { يَرِثُنِـي وَيَرِثُ مِنْ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ } قال: يرث مالـي، ويرث من آل يعقوب النبوّة.

Mujahid from yazeed from ismail from abi salih, same as above.

Hadith 11

 

حدثنـي يعقوب، قال: ثنا هشيـم، قال: أخبرنا إسماعيـل بن أبـي خالد، عن أبـي صالـح، فـي قوله { يَرِثُنِـي وَيَرِثُ مِنْ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ } قال: يرثنـي مالـي، ويرث من آل يعقوب النبوّة.

Yaqub from Hasheem from Ismail from Abi Khalid from Abi salih, same as above.

 

Am I misunderstanding something? There was a direct heir so it seems there isn't really much point on using this for a debate, unless I'm misreading it. 

 

 

How about the inheritance of Sulayman from Dawud?

 

We read in Tafseer Gharaib al-Quran:

 

وقيل: ورثها من ابيه وكان أبوه اصابها من العمالقة

“It has been said: ‘He inherited them (horses) from his father and his father had obtained them as a booty from Amaliqs.”

 

We read in al-Tashil le Uloom al-Tanzil by Abu Abdillah Ibn al-Jezi al-Ghernati (d. 741 H):

 

فقال الجمهور إن سليمان عليه السلام عرضت عليه خيل كان ورثها عن ابيه

“The majority said that Sulayman  (as) brought for him horses he inherit them from his father”

 

We read in Tafseer al-Nasafi:

 

وقيل ورثها من أبيه وأصابها أبوه من العمالقة

“It has been said that he inherited them from his father and his father had obtained them from Amaliqa (as war booty)”

 

We read in Zad al-Masir by Imam of Salafies Abu al-Faraj al-Jawzi (d. 597 H):

 

والثالث : أنه ورثها من أبيه داود

The third: ‘That he inherited them from his father David’

 

Imam Qurtubi records in his Tafseer:

 

وقال مقاتل ورث سليمان من أبيه داود ألف فرس

“Maqatil said that Solomon inherited 1000 horses from his father”

 

Shaykh Kamaluddin Muhammad bin Musa Damiri (742-808 H) records in Hayaat al Haywan:

 

وجمهور المفسرين على أنها كانت خيلا موروثة

“The majority of scholars say that those horses were inherited”

 

We read in Tafseer Baydhawi:

 

وقيل أصابها أبوه من العمالقة فورثها منه

‘It has been said that his father obtained them (as war booty) from Amaliq then he (Solomon) inherited them’

 

We read in Tafseer al-Muharer al-Wajiz by Abu Mhammad ibn Attya al-Maharebi (d. 546):

 

وجمهور الناس على أنها كانت خيلا موروثة

“The majority of people state that those horses were inherited”

 

Insha Allah ta 'ala this will clear up some doubts for you http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophets/sulaiman.html

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Allah yahdeek ya akhi. We should discuss these things. 

 

 

عندي سؤال واحد فقط لك و للامثالك  , متى ستعلن تشيعك؟ 

 

 

Brother you've taken this Hadith very much out of context. I will post it for you so Insha Allah we can explain what actually is going on in this Hadith. It is a long Hadith so I will make the important parts bold. 

As we can see this is 'Umar ibn al-Khattab رضي الله عنه‎ sorting out a dispute between 'Ali رضي الله عنه‎ and al-'Abbas رضي الله عنه‎ over the booty and abandoned properties of Banu Nadir. This is clearly shown in Chapter 15 http://sunnah.com/muslim/32. In fact this has almost nothing to do with Fadak, if you read the full Hadith it seems to imply that Fadak is no longer an issue and has been settled. So it is rather inappropriate to use this Hadith as evidence. 

 

 

You have not addressed 95 percent of what I posted "Ibn yahya", and you misunderstood the remaining 5 percent.

 

Unfortunately you have shown me that you are not well read on Fadak, for Banu nadir were the owners of Fadak and you have shot yourself in the foot by even mentioning their name.  You said that this hadith is not involving Fadak, you're wrong as it clearly is. As we can see from the part you quoted 

 

 

and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife(fatima) from the property of her father.

 

 

Secondly go into fath al baari and take a look for yourself what this hadith is referring to, it is rather obvious and I'm kind of surprised you made such a comment. Your own Shaykh Ibn taymiyya also admits that Ali requested Fadak, this was also a forum topic on DD-sunnah forums where one of the "shaykhs" were asked.  http://www.dd-sunnah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72080

 

You can tell he is a nasibi the way he talks about Imam Ali (as) and Fatima.

 

 

Brother with all due respect I find it very deceitful that this Hadith is used. Here is the full Hadith to prove my point. 
 
It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that:
The Messenger of Allah said: The most merciful of my Ummah towards my Ummah is Abu Bakr; the one who adheres most sternly to the religion of Allah is 'Umar; the most sincere of them in shyness and modesty is 'Uthman; the best judge is 'Ali bin Abu Talib; the best in reciting the Book of Allah is Ubayy bin Ka'b; the most knowledgeable of what is lawful and unlawful is Mu'adh bin Jabal; and the most knowledgeable of the rules of inheritance (Fara'id) is Zaid bin Thabit. And every nation has a trustworthy guardian, and the trustworthy guardian of this Ummah is Abu 'Ubaidah bin Jarrah."
Nowhere does it say 'Ali رضي الله عنه‎ is more knowledgeable, in fact it says clearly in the areas that I have made bold that he was not as knowledgeable as others in certain areas. A good judge isn't necessarily the most knowledgeable. A good judge is someone who can see the evidence and make a fair and balanced judgement based on that evidence. 

 

 

With all due respect you don't seem to know how to argue, I'm not quoting your hadith because I think they are true or because I feel they have hujjiya, rather I'm quoting them to provide proof for my titles that is "Ali is the best of judges". In terms of him being the most knowledgeable then this hadith is contracted by a stronger hadith for Ali is the most knowledgeable according to your books as well. You're like the Christian where when I show him that Muhammad (saw) is mentioned in the bible he says to me "ok muhammad is in the bible, then why don't you accept the whole bible"!? 

 

You have completely misunderstood the point of this hadith and why I posted it, the point of me posting this hadith was to show that Ali (as) was noted as the best of judges according to the Prophet (as). You're argument is that being a "good judge" doesn't necessarily meaning you are the most knowledgeable. Unfortunately you have not thought slowly and took your time and responding to me, for he isn't a "good judge", he is the best of judges. If he is the best of judges then as you said he is the best at analyzing proofs and applying them, if this is the case then him return to Umar to request Fadak once again that he judged Abu Bakr's interpretation and lie as incorrect. Also I do not believe that Abu Bakr is the "most merciful" or that Umar is "the most steadfast" but rather this hadith is a hujjah upon you and thus you must take these "fahadail" along with the praise that Ali is the best of judges, thus you must admit that he is the best of judges. If he is the best of judges, and he had the same knowledge of these ahahdeeth and proofs as Umar and Abu Bakr did, yet judged Abu Bakr and Umar as being wrong, then what left do you have to say? :)

 

Also you're wrong about him being the most knowledgeable as it is famously narrated that he is the a part of the "fuaqaha as-saba'" , the seven fuqaha of the companions, but I wont go into him being the most knowedgable if I wish to do this I could just bring hadith like this, but I don't want to sidetrack the topic.

 

وروى الحاكم في المستدرك بسنده عن مجاهد عن ابن عباس قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : أنا مدينة العلم ، وعلي بابها ، فمن أراد العلم ، فليأت الباب - قال الحاكم : هذا حديث صحيح الإسناد (

 

"The messaneger of Allah said, I am the city of knwowledge and Ali is it's gate, so whoever wishes for knowledge then let him come by the door". Hakim said, the hadith is Sahih. The hadith is also mutawatir and can be found in the the mu[Edited Out]ir compilations.

 

 

 
 
In this Hadith you have unknowingly shot yourself in the foot. Because it is a part of the Shi'ah beliefs that 'Ali was oppressed by 'Umar, but here we see 'Umar allowing him and even requesting him to voice his opinion. Another thing is that 'Umar didn't just ask for 'Ali's advice. He did it with many other companions, here is a good article with an entire list with references to prove it http://twelvershia.n...ssive-dictator/ .

 

 

 

Again, I could care less if your hadith said that the moon was made of cheese and Abu Bakr was the Khalifa on it, what we care about is the fact that we can prove to you that Ali (as) requested Fadak according to your belief, nothing more and nothing less.

 

Regarding those narrations then many of them are fabricated anyways, let's take a look at one exmaple that "twelvershia.net" has posted

 

Let's take a look

 

But Mu`adh ibn Jabal said: “O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! You may have the authority to stone her but you do not have the authority to do the same for the child in her womb.” So he left her until she gave birth to a boy.

The man saw in him great resemblance to himself, and shouted: “By the Lord of the Ka`bah he is my son!”

`Umar then told Mu`adh: “Women have given up trying to give birth to anyone like Mu`adh, if it were not for Mu`adh then `Umar would perish.”

 

 

So Ali returned them and he said to Umar: “Did you order this woman to be stoned?" He said “Yes, she admitted to adultery!" So Ali said to him “Yes this is your authority upon her, but what about your authority over the one in her stomach?" Then Ali said to him “Perhaps you would have rebuked her or lightened her punishment?" So Umar said “it would have been that." Then Ali responded “Or have you not heard the prophet (saw) say there is no punishment upon the admitter after tragedy/ misfortune/pain has fallen upon them, he who is chained or jailed or threatened then there is no admittance accepted from for him." So Umar opened the way for her and said “Women are not able to give birth to the likes of Ali, and if not for Ali Umar would have perished”.

 

Hmm that's funny, I heard that companions were masum in your religion but I didn't know that they also had the ability to shapeshift. The hadith is an obvious fabrication to take away from the merits of Ali (as), thus is how your religion was structured.

 

 
Am I misunderstanding something? There was a direct heir so it seems there isn't really much point on using this for a debate, unless I'm misreading it. 

 

 

God help us.

 
Insha Allah ta 'ala this will clear up some doubts for you http://www.islamawar...s/sulaiman.html
 

 

 

Thanks it refuted my entire post, I'll become Sunni later.

Edited by Abu-Jafar Herz
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عندي سؤال واحد فقط لك و للامثالك  , متى ستعلن تشيعك؟ 

بين وبين التشيع شعرة، وهي النص على إمامة علي والحسن والحسين وعلي ومحمد وجعفر وموسى وعلي ومحمد وعلي والحسن ومحمد. وأريد نصا وليس اجتهادا. فإن كان عندك ما طلبت فسيكون تشيعي على يدك فلا تبخل علي وتحرمني مما فتحه الله عليك. ه

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Brother you've taken this Hadith very much out of context. I will post it for you so Insha Allah we can explain what actually is going on in this Hadith. It is a long Hadith so I will make the important parts bold. 

 

 

Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

If I had a dollar for every time this hadith was quoted - and I presented the refutation for it - I would have plenty of money to travel around the world this summer.  To add to what you have said, a similar narration is found in Sahih Bukhari without the words "liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest", therefore, those words are ruled as anomaly since Sahih Bukhari is more authentic than Sahih Muslim and there is no mention of anyone being a "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar" in Sahih Bukhari.

 

Furthermore, Shias half-quote this narration without knowing that if they were to read the entire narration, like all of their "proofs", it backfires against them.  Notice what Abbas [ra] says about Imam Ali [ra].

 

"He said: 'Yes', and permitted them.  So they entered.  Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: 'What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)?'  He said: 'Yes', and permitted them to enter.  Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar."

 

So if Abu-Jafar Herz wants to use this narration as basis for his argument, then he must also accept that Abbas [ra] called Imam Ali [ra] a "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar".   Therefore, in the same narration, Imam Ali [ra] is referred to as "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar" before Abu Bakr [ra] and Umar [ra].....naudhibillah.

Edited by muslim720
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بين وبين التشيع شعرة، وهي النص على إمامة علي والحسن والحسين وعلي ومحمد وجعفر وموسى وعلي ومحمد وعلي والحسن ومحمد. وأريد نصا وليس اجتهادا. فإن كان عندك ما طلبت فسيكون تشيعي على يدك فلا تبخل علي وتحرمني مما فتحه الله عليك. ه

 

Why talk about the Nass of Hassan without you first accepting the nass of Imam Ali (as) ? How can have  a roof with no foundation? The nass of Imam al mahdi (as) relies upon his father, and the nass of Imam al hassan askari relies upon his father all the way to Imam Ali (as). If you deny the first all will fall with them, so when you accept the first we can speak Hassan (as), then hussein (as), then zayn al abideen, and I will show you why our nass is objective and not circular.

Edited by Abu-Jafar Herz
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عندي سؤال واحد فقط لك و للامثالك  , متى ستعلن تشيعك؟ 

 

 

You have not addressed 95 percent of what I posted "Ibn yahya", and you misunderstood the remaining 5 percent.

 

Unfortunately you have shown me that you are not well read on Fadak, for Banu nadir were the owners of Fadak and you have shot yourself in the foot by even mentioning their name.  You said that this hadith is not involving Fadak, you're wrong as it clearly is. As we can see from the part you quoted 

 

You've accused me of something that you yourself have done. You've ignored pretty much the bulk of what I've been saying in the favour of minor points that you can add Qiyas to. Banu Nadir were the owners, but this Hadith is referring to a dispute that wasn't over Fadak, it was something that 'Umar brought up as an example of previous disputes.

 

Secondly go into fath al baari and take a look for yourself what this hadith is referring to, it is rather obvious and I'm kind of surprised you made such a comment. Your own Shaykh Ibn taymiyya also admits that Ali requested Fadak, this was also a forum topic on DD-sunnah forums where one of the "shaykhs" were asked.  http://www.dd-sunnah...ead.php?t=72080

 

You can tell he is a nasibi the way he talks about Imam Ali  (as) and Fatima.

 

 

Where did I say 'Ali didn't request it? He requested it and he wasn't given it, end of story and this Hadith in particular isn't about Fadak. On your second comment I find it rather bizarre and very over sensitive, I struggle to find anything disrespectful about what 'Umar said in your quote. 

 

 

With all due respect you don't seem to know how to argue, I'm not quoting your hadith because I think they are true or because I feel they have hujjiya, rather I'm quoting them to provide proof for my titles that is "Ali is the best of judges". In terms of him being the most knowledgeable then this hadith is contracted by a stronger hadith for Ali is the most knowledgeable according to your books as well. You're like the Christian where when I show him that Muhammad (saw) is mentioned in the bible he says to me "ok muhammad is in the bible, then why don't you accept the whole bible"!? 

 

You have completely misunderstood the point of this hadith and why I posted it, the point of me posting this hadith was to show that Ali  (as) was noted as the best of judges according to the Prophet  (as). You're argument is that being a "good judge" doesn't necessarily meaning you are the most knowledgeable. Unfortunately you have not thought slowly and took your time and responding to me, for he isn't a "good judge", he is the best of judges. If he is the best of judges then as you said he is the best at analyzing proofs and applying them, if this is the case then him return to Umar to request Fadak once again that he judged Abu Bakr's interpretation and lie as incorrect. Also I do not believe that Abu Bakr is the "most merciful" or that Umar is "the most steadfast" but rather this hadith is a hujjah upon you and thus you must take these "fahadail" along with the praise that Ali is the best of judges, thus you must admit that he is the best of judges. If he is the best of judges, and he had the same knowledge of these ahahdeeth and proofs as Umar and Abu Bakr did, yet judged Abu Bakr and Umar as being wrong, then what left do you have to say?  :)

 

Also you're wrong about him being the most knowledgeable as it is famously narrated that he is the a part of the "fuaqaha as-saba'" , the seven fuqaha of the companions, but I wont go into him being the most knowedgable if I wish to do this I could just bring hadith like this, but I don't want to sidetrack the topic.

 

وروى الحاكم في المستدرك بسنده عن مجاهد عن ابن عباس قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : أنا مدينة العلم ، وعلي بابها ، فمن أراد العلم ، فليأت الباب - قال الحاكم : هذا حديث صحيح الإسناد (

 

"The messaneger of Allah said, I am the city of knwowledge and Ali is it's gate, so whoever wishes for knowledge then let him come by the door". Hakim said, the hadith is Sahih. The hadith is also mutawatir and can be found in the the mu[Edited Out]ir compilations.

 

Again we find you of accusing me of something you're doing yourself. You quoted a Hadith as Hujjah on me that 'Ali (RA) is the most knowledgeable and I refuted that conclusion with the same Hadith, I don't see how I've breached debating conduct. In the Hadith that you quoted about the dispute between 'Ali and Abbas we find 'Ali agreeing and confirming with everything 'Umar said about Fadak. I don't particularly care what you think about what the hadith says about the two greatest men to ever walk the earth after the Prophets and Messengers, you use our Hadith to do Da'wah to me, then I'm allowed to refute you from it. In the same Hadith is says some companions were more knowledgeable so your Qiyas that ignores basically 99.9% of the Hadith is completely invalid. On the Hadith of the city of knowledge, here is what the following scholars have said on it:

 

Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text.

Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected).

Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable.

Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame’ li Ahkam al-Quran: “This Hadith is Batil (false)!”

Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie.

Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths.

Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. 

 

Here are some sources: 

 

Yahya Bin Ma’een Source:

al Jarh wat-Ta’deel 6/99

Su’alat ibn Junayd #185

Tareekh Baghdad 11/205

Ahmad Bin Hanbal Source:

Tareekh Baghdad 11/49

Ibn Hibban Source:

al Majruheen 2/136

Ibn ’Adi Source:

al Kamel fi ad-Du’afa 1/311 & 316

Al-Daraqutni Source: Ta’liqat ‘ala al Majruheen 179

Ibn Tahir al-Maqdisi Source: Dhakhirat al Huffadh 5/2578 - Tadhkirat al Huffadh #136

Ibn Al-Arabi al Maliki Source: Ahkam al Quran 3/86

Ibn A’sakir Source: Tareekh Dimashq 45\321

Ibn Al-Jawzi Source: Al Mawdu’at 2/112-116

Al-Nawawi Source: Tahdheeb al Asma’ wal-Lughat 1/348

Al-Mizzi Source: Tahdheeb al Kamal 11/462

Al Dhahabi Source: Mizan al-I’tidal 1/415 - 1/110

 

 

Again, I could care less if your hadith said that the moon was made of cheese and Abu Bakr was the Khalifa on it, what we care about is the fact that we can prove to you that Ali  (as) requested Fadak according to your belief, nothing more and nothing less.

 

Regarding those narrations then many of them are fabricated anyways, let's take a look at one exmaple that "twelvershia.net" has posted

 

Let's take a look

 

But Mu`adh ibn Jabal said: “O Ameer al-Mu’mineen! You may have the authority to stone her but you do not have the authority to do the same for the child in her womb.” So he left her until she gave birth to a boy.

The man saw in him great resemblance to himself, and shouted: “By the Lord of the Ka`bah he is my son!”

`Umar then told Mu`adh: “Women have given up trying to give birth to anyone like Mu`adh, if it were not for Mu`adh then `Umar would perish.”

 

 

So Ali returned them and he said to Umar: “Did you order this woman to be stoned?" He said “Yes, she admitted to adultery!" So Ali said to him “Yes this is your authority upon her, but what about your authority over the one in her stomach?" Then Ali said to him “Perhaps you would have rebuked her or lightened her punishment?" So Umar said “it would have been that." Then Ali responded “Or have you not heard the prophet (saw) say there is no punishment upon the admitter after tragedy/ misfortune/pain has fallen upon them, he who is chained or jailed or threatened then there is no admittance accepted from for him." So Umar opened the way for her and said “Women are not able to give birth to the likes of Ali, and if not for Ali Umar would have perished”.

 

Hmm that's funny, I heard that companions were masum in your religion but I didn't know that they also had the ability to shapeshift. The hadith is an obvious fabrication to take away from the merits of Ali  (as), thus is how your religion was structured.

 

Then stop quoting the Hadith, and please don't throw stones in glass houses, if I had a nickel for all the stupid and ridiculous Hadiths in your books I'd be a billionaire. E.G. the first plant to acknowledge the Wilayah of 'Ali was an egg plant according to Shaykh as-Saduq' Iqab al-A'mal and Thawab al-A'mal. I really don't have the time to give a list of stupid Shi'ah hadiths but if you want me too I will be happy to oblige. 

 

 

Thanks it refuted my entire post, I'll become Sunni later.

 

It refutes your point on the inheritance of Sulayman so please if you do't have an answer, don't bother replying. 

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Why talk about the Nass of Hassan without you first accepting the nass of Imam Ali (as) ? How can have  a roof with no foundation? The nass of Imam al mahdi (as) relies upon his father, and the nass of Imam al hassan askari relies upon his father all the way to Imam Ali (as). If you deny the first all will fall with them, so when you accept the first we can speak Hassan (as), then hussein (as), then zayn al abideen, and I will show you why our nass is objective and not circular.

Imam Ali رضي الله عنه was literally the first name he mentioned... it looks like Google Translate failed you

 

With all due respect you don't seem to know how to argue... what we care about is the fact that we can prove to you that Ali (as) requested Fadak according to your belief, nothing more and nothing less.

 

 

Actually, all you can prove is that Ali رضي الله عنه requested Fadak based on your understanding of our "sources", not from our "belief" بارك الله فيك.

Edited by Cyrax
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 Imam Ali رضي الله عنه was literally the first name he mentioned... it looks like Google Translate failed you

 

 

 
May Allah bless you and give you good understanding,yes he does indeed mentions Imam Ali a.s. first, but he isn't saying he just wants the nass of Imam Ali and then from there move on using tawatur and aql (a.s) for every imam stemming off Imam ali, he wants to discuss the nusus for every single one of them all together(including ali) without first accepting ghadeer and thinks the nusus for the other Imams isn't based upon naql but aql and ijithad and is circular. So my comment is essentially that we cannot even mention the names of the other Imams or talk about their nusus without him first believing and accepting ghadeer, talking about the nusus of other imams without first proving the first Imam (as) is pointless. He demonstrated the same tactic with a debate he had with another person on this forum, when he was presented with ghadeer he kept requesting nusus for the other imams which I found as a dishonest tactic that has no basis in this religion or it's sciences and this is why I said what I said. He has been on this forum making the same request for a week and everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about. So no I didn't misunderstand him, if you have any other questions you are welcomed to discuss with me dear brother.
 
You've accused me of something that you yourself have done. You've ignored pretty much the bulk of what I've been saying in the favour of minor points that you can add Qiyas to. Banu Nadir were the owners, but this Hadith is referring to a dispute that wasn't over Fadak, it was something that 'Umar brought up as an example of previous disputes.

 

Now you're just making things up, as it is clearly obvious from the hadith that Ali (a.s) is requesting the property of banu nadeer for his wife, and Fatima (as) requested no property from Umar and Abu bakr that belonged to banu nadeer except Fadak. So lets break down the hadith 

 

This is the first part of the hadith, where it clearly says that Imam Ali (a.s.) came to Abu bakr requesting the property of Fatima Zahra and Abu bakr reciting the hadith that prophets do not leave inheritance

 

1- Fatima never requested any land from banu nadeer except Fadak.

2- Fatima and Ali requested from Abu bakr first with abu bakr reciting the hadith of inheritance.

 

This is umar talking about when Ali requested Fadak from abu bakr.

 

He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth.

 

 

 

 

 

Now this is the second part of the hadith with Ali (as) again making the same request to umar this time.

 

 

When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us

 

 

Walhamdulilah that the enemies of tashayyu can not even read their own hadith.

 

 

 

Again we find you of accusing me of something you're doing yourself. You quoted a Hadith as Hujjah on me that 'Ali (ra) is the most knowledgeable and I refuted that conclusion with the same Hadith, I don't see how I've breached debating conduct. In the Hadith that you quoted about the dispute between 'Ali and Abbas we find 'Ali agreeing and confirming with everything 'Umar said about Fadak. I don't particularly care what you think about what the hadith says about the two greatest men to ever walk the earth after the Prophets and Messengers, you use our Hadith to do Da'wah to me, then I'm allowed to refute you from it. In the same Hadith is says some companions were more knowledgeable so your Qiyas that ignores basically 99.9% of the Hadith is completely invalid. On the Hadith of the city of knowledge, here is what the following scholars have said on it:
 
Daraqutni labeled the Hadith as mudtarib (shaky), both in isnad and text.
Tirmidhi labeled it is ghareeb (weak) and munkar (rejected).
Bukhari said that the Hadith has no sahih narration and declared it un-acknowledgeable.
Qurtubi said about this Hadith in al-Jame’ li Ahkam al-Quran: “This Hadith is Batil (false)!”
Ibn Maeen said that the Hadith is a baseless lie.
Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths.
Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. 
 
Here are some sources: 
 
Yahya Bin Ma’een Source:
al Jarh wat-Ta’deel 6/99
Su’alat ibn Junayd #185
Tareekh Baghdad 11/205
Ahmad Bin Hanbal Source:
Tareekh Baghdad 11/49
Ibn Hibban Source:
al Majruheen 2/136
Ibn ’Adi Source:
al Kamel fi ad-Du’afa 1/311 & 316
Al-Daraqutni Source: Ta’liqat ‘ala al Majruheen 179
Ibn Tahir al-Maqdisi Source: Dhakhirat al Huffadh 5/2578 - Tadhkirat al Huffadh #136
Ibn Al-Arabi al Maliki Source: Ahkam al Quran 3/86
Ibn A’sakir Source: Tareekh Dimashq 45\321
Ibn Al-Jawzi Source: Al Mawdu’at 2/112-116
Al-Nawawi Source: Tahdheeb al Asma’ wal-Lughat 1/348
Al-Mizzi Source: Tahdheeb al Kamal 11/462
Al Dhahabi Source: Mizan al-I’tidal 1/415 - 1/110

 

 

First of all stop posting English references, post the Arabic text with the references.

 

Secondly there are many chains for this hadith so you bringing me references that dispute one or two chains that has nothing to do with my chain that I posted is a mistake in your methodology, let us take a look at an example of how you failed, you posted a reference claiming that al hakim claimed the hadith was weak.

 

Dhahabi considered it a forgery and included it in his book on forged Hadiths.
Al-Hakim declared that it is weak. 

 

 
 

Let us look at what Al Hakim actually says

 

 
وروى الحاكم في المستدرك بسنده عن مجاهد عن ابن عباس قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : أنا مدينة العلم ، وعلي بابها ، فمن أراد العلم ، فليأت الباب - قال الحاكم : هذا حديث صحيح الإسناد (
 
"Abu yahya" took all these references from Sunniforum from here  >>> http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-30319.htmland he copy and pasted after asking Shaykh google.
Half these references if not all are wrong and taken out of context because they are judging individual chains.
 
In fact this hadith is mutawatir and in fact in the Sunni realm you can weaken or strengthen many times a hadith based upon certain opinions regarding certain narrates, let us look at this ikhtilaf in-depth so inshallah we can benefit.
 
Al hakim says "sahih isnaad", Zahabi says no, it's weak, along with the other people he mentioned. However we go to shawkani and Ibn hajr who put this hadith into perspective for us
 
وقال الشوكاني في ( الفوائد المجموعة ) : " قيل لا يصح ولا أصل له وقد ذكر هذا الحديث ابن الجوزي في ( الموضوعات ) من طرق عدة وجزم ببطلان الكل وتابعه الذهبي وغيره ، وأجيب على ذلك : بأن محمد بن جعفر البغدادي الفيدي قد وثقه
 يحيى بن معين ، وأن أبا الصلت الهروي قد وثقه ابن معين والحاكم ، وقد سئل يحيى عن هذا الحديث ، فقال : صحيح ، وأخرجه الترمذي عن علي (رض) مرفوعا ، وأخرجه الحاكم في ( المستدرك ) مرفوعا وقال : صحيح الإسناد ، قال الحافظ ابن حجر : والصواب خلاف قولهما معا ، يعني ابن الجوزي والحاكم وأن الحديث من قسم الحسن 
 
Shawkani said in his book (Fawai'd al majmu'at) "It is said that this hadith is not authenticated nor does it have any basis for it, and Ibn jawzi has mentioned this hadith in his book of fabrications from a numer of different routes and affirmed that they are all weak, Zahabi followed him in this and others. And I answer this by saying that that Muhammad ibn jafar al Baghdadi was given tawtheeq by Yahya ibn maeen and Al-haakim and Aba Salt al-harwai has been authenticated by yahya ibn maeen and al haakim, and yahya ibn maeen was asked about this hadith and he said it is sahih, and tarimizi narrated this hadith from Ali (rd) marfu'an, al hakim narrated this hadith in his Mustadarak murfa'an and said that it's isnad is sahih, and ibn hajr a asqalani said "both of their opinions are correct. Meaning the opinions Ibn jawzi and al hakim, and this hadith is from the category of Hasan.
 

 

 

 
Ibn hajr then goes on to list his reasons for including it as hasan, firstly because yahya ibn maeen who is the king of rijal scholars said the narrators that were mentioned were thiqa, and secondly because the amount of chains this hadith has.
 
 لا يرتقي إلى الصحة ولا ينحط إلى الكذب … وهذا هو الصواب لأن يحيى بن معين والحاكم قد خولفا في توثيق أبي الصلت ومن تابعه فلا يكون مع هذا الخلاف صحيحا بل حسنا لغيره لكثرة طرقه كما بيناه وله طرق أخرى ذكرها صاحب اللآلئ وغيره " (1) ، انتهى كلام الشوكاني .

 

 

 

1- So ibn hajr considers it hasan 

2- Yahya ibn maeen considers it sahih.

3-Shawkani considers it sahih.

4- Imam al suyuti considers it sahih.

5-Al Hakim considers it sahih.

 

 
It refutes your point on the inheritance of Sulayman so please if you do't have an answer, don't bother replying.

 

 

No it doesn't, it's just a recycled boring English article with the same refuted arguments, if you want to play the copy and paste my shaykh game you'll lose habibi.

 

 

Now moving on from all of this, the people responding to this thread have no been able to refute the first two points, so let us repeat them, and once you refute the first two points we can discuss the rest of the article that is.

 

1- Ali is the best of judges, and the definition of a judge is a person who judges and makes a fatwa based upon the evidence he has.

 

2- Ali requested Fadak from Abu bakr and umar. The rest of the hadith you posted about Ali accepting the hadith of Abu Bakr and Umar that they don't leave inheritance was already answered above, we don't care about that because we don't consider the hadith as a hujja upon us, what we care about are the points we can prove from your own sources. And Ali saying "yes" isn't a proof for anything as the hadith is acceptable and true, however abu bakr and umar used it out of context so Ali saying yes still doesn't prove your point.

 

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Now you're just making things up, as it is clearly obvious from the hadith that Ali (a.s) is requesting the property of banu nadeer for his wife, and Fatima (as) requested no property from Umar and Abu bakr that belonged to banu nadeer except Fadak. So lets break down the hadith 

 

This is the first part of the hadith, where it clearly says that Imam Ali (a.s.) came to Abu bakr requesting the property of Fatima Zahra and Abu bakr reciting the hadith that prophets do not leave inheritance

 

1- Fatima never requested any land from banu nadeer except Fadak.

2- Fatima and Ali requested from Abu bakr first with abu bakr reciting the hadith of inheritance.

(Fatima never requested any land from banu nadeer except Fadak.)

 

1- 

Bukhari :: Book 53 :: Volume 4 :: Hadith 325

..... She (Lady Fatima)  used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah’s Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, “I will not leave anything Allah’s Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet’s tradition, then I would go astray.” (Later on) Umar gave the Prophet’s property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to ‘Ali and ‘Abbas (after taking oath that they would both use it the same way as Allah's Apostle [pbuh] did), but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, “These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah’s Apostle [pbuh] used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler.” (Az-Zuhrl said, “They have been managed in this way till today.”)

 

(Fatima and Ali requested from Abu bakr first with abu bakr reciting the hadith of inheritance).

 

2-

Please show us an authentic hadith with chain of narrators where both Lady Fatima and Ali together demanded Fadak from Abu Bakr. 

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Bukhari :: Book 53 :: Volume 4 :: Hadith 325
..... She (Lady Fatima)  used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah’s Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, “I will not leave anything Allah’s Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet’s tradition, then I would go astray.” (Later on) Umar gave the Prophet’s property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to ‘Ali and ‘Abbas (after taking oath that they would both use it the same way as Allah's Apostle [pbuh] did), but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, “These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah’s Apostle [pbuh] used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler.” (Az-Zuhrl said, “They have been managed in this way till today.”)
 
(Fatima and Ali requested from Abu bakr first with abu bakr reciting the hadith of inheritance).

 

 

I didn't say the only property she asked for was Fadak, I said the only property that she asked for that belonged banu Nadeer is Fadak. Fadak is at khayber, and it belonged to banu nadeer, so what she is asking for is Fadak.

 

Secondly you admit that Ali and fatima requested Fadak from abu bakr hence proving my point.

 

 
2-
Please show us an authentic hadith with chain of narrators where both Lady Fatima and Ali together demanded Fadak from Abu Bakr. 

 

 

 

Are you ok? You just said up top that they did now you're asking me for proof? 

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Firstly Fadak is at khayber, and it belonged to banu nadeer, so what she is asking for is Fadak.

Before quoting some more traditions showing that the Lady Fatima (ra) demanded from properties other than Fadak too... allow me to share some info about Fadak itself. Fadak has been described with variations even amongst Shii traditions... whether it was a town  nearby khyber (according to a tradition one mile from khyber) or was one of the towns of khyber or an entire continent. The fact is that Allah gave it to his Prophet (saw) under different circumstances than that of Khyber and its income has been separately defined and dealt with by Prophet (saw).

 

 

Bukhari :: Book 80 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 718

Fatima and Al ‘Abbas came to Abu Bakr, seeking their share from the property of Allah’s Apostle and at that time, they were asking for their land at Fadak and their share from Khaibar.

 

Bukhari :: Book 57 :: Volume 5 :: Hadith 60

Fatima sent somebody to Abu Bakr asking him to give her her inheritance from the Prophet from what Allah had given to His Apostle through Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting). She asked for the Sadaqa (i.e. wealth assigned for charitable purposes) of the Prophet at Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus (i.e., one-fifth) of the Khaibar booty.

 

Dawud :: Book 19 : Hadith 2963

Fatimah was demanding (the property of) sadaqah of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) at Medina and Fadak, and what remained from the fifth of Khaybar. 

 

Secondly you admit that Ali and fatima requested Fadak from abu bakr hence proving my point.

 

Are you ok? You just said up top (brother i had copied your sentence.. that was your own statement preceding my query) that they did now you're asking me for proof (YES)

I hope you get it now.

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Furthermore, Shias half-quote this narration without knowing that if they were to read the entire narration, like all of their "proofs", it backfires against them.  Notice what Abbas [ra] says about Imam Ali [ra].

 

"He said: 'Yes', and permitted them.  So they entered.  Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: 'What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)?'  He said: 'Yes', and permitted them to enter.  Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar."

 

So if Abu-Jafar Herz wants to use this narration as basis for his argument, then he must also accept that Abbas [ra] called Imam Ali [ra] a "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar".   Therefore, in the same narration, Imam Ali [ra] is referred to as "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar" before Abu Bakr [ra] and Umar [ra].....naudhibillah.

 

Salam alie kum. Your argument is NOT valid brother. In this narration of Sahih muslim, Ibn abbas can accuse Imam Ali about anything, but that does NOT make it true. Ibn abbas is not sinless and can make mistakes or emotional outbursts. Lots of people said bad things about imam ali and lied against him. Sahih Bukhari even mentions even top sahabas who hated imam Ali.   http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/377

 

The real point is this; what would hold true is if a truthful person like Imam Ali calls someone else a "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar?" Would you not believe him?  I would, because the Holy prophet as testified regarding imam Ali's truthfulness. Let's put it another way, there were people accusing holy prophet of certain things which were not true. Would you believe their claims? No! But if the holy prophet called someone a liar then you would believe because you know the holy prophet would never tell a lie. So your argument does not hold any weight brother. Hope this makes sense. Salam

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Salam alie kum. Your argument is NOT valid brother. In this narration of Sahih muslim, Ibn abbas can accuse Imam Ali about anything, but that does NOT make it true. Ibn abbas is not sinless and can make mistakes or emotional outbursts. Lots of people said bad things about imam ali and lied against him. Sahih Bukhari even mentions even top sahabas who hated imam Ali.   http://sunnah.com/bukhari/64/377

 

The real point is this; what would hold true is if a truthful person like Imam Ali calls someone else a "sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar?" Would you not believe him?  I would, because the Holy prophet as testified regarding imam Ali's truthfulness. Let's put it another way, there were people accusing holy prophet of certain things which were not true. Would you believe their claims? No! But if the holy prophet called someone a liar then you would believe because you know the holy prophet would never tell a lie. So your argument does not hold any weight brother. Hope this makes sense. Salam

It seems it was Abbas bin Abdul-Mutalib (ra) and not Ibn Abbas (ra). And i would indeed take his words sincerely because he was one of the best of this Ummah and belonged to the noblest tribe. but i very much doubt that any of them used such words for each other. Ali (ra) could not be accused of any such thing neither Shaykhein (ra).

So in my view, it was just a form of idraaj committed in transmission by Zuhri.

 

There are other variations of the hadith even in Al-Bukhari and None uses the word "sinful, treacherous" etc. This hadith in Al-Muslim which come through Al-Zuhrim, who could make idraaj... now copying from a site

 

"we know Al-Zuhri make idraaj of statements into hadiths from time to time, yet, he does it mainly to explain it.

You can find many examples in a book by Al-Khateeb Al-Baghdaadi that gives examples of Mudraj statements.

Here is the most famous one that comes to mind.

أول ما بدئ بالرسول الوحي قالت: كان يتحنث في غار حراء والتحنث التعبد الليالي ذوات العدد

الراوي: عائشة المحدث: ابن عثيمين � المصدر: شرح النزهة لابن عثيمين � الصفحة أو الرقم: 208

خلاصة حكم المحدث: عبارة (والتحنث: التعبد) مدرجة من كلام الزهري تفسيرا للحديث

& therefore his whole hadith is examined sincerely & if other hadiths donot support that word i.e. "liar, sinful, treacherous" with other chain of narrtors then this means he added the words to explain difficult situation. 

& remeber mudraj hadith is not weak but that word "liar, sinful, treacherous" is rejected bcoz he added on his own to explain it.

 

Also as you can see that both Ali (ra) & Abbas (ra) were satisfied with what Umar (ra) claimed i.e. the judgment of both was correct.

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Why should Abu Bakr knew better anyway since he was never appointed nor was it his concern. 

The ones concerned were Lady Fatima a.s. and Imam Ali a.s. as Lady Fatima a.s. was an heir of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. and Imam Ali a.s. was the only one appointed by Allah and that there was such an appointment wether doubted or not is confirmed in sahih ahadith from the sunni.

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1. First of all, i usually won't judge and rank the companions with my limited knowledge of their lives. Anyways Ali (ra) was indeed best of the judges as per the tradition quoted and there are other merits of Ali (ra) too who nobody could match... however the tradition quoted above also talks about some other subjects in which other people possessed more knowledge (but not necessarily possessed all the knowledge). furthermore Ali (ra) was above erring? this is not proven and also he says in Nahjul Balagha "Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring. I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah."

 

2. i have not read anything explicit about that. Even if it is true... i believe it was a matter better adjudged by Abu bakr (ra) for following reasons.

 

My Argument:

 

1. Fadak was "Fai"

 

2. "Fai" could not be divided as Ghanimah as per Surah Hasr:6 :"And what Allah restored (afa'Allaho [of property]) to His Messenger from them - you did not spur for it [in an expedition] any horses or camels" because other Muslims did not fight for such property they could not claim it.

 

3. The usage of "Fai" has been clearly defined in Surah Hashr:7 in Quran "And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler " that Prophet (saw) as an incharge would use this property, which in essence belongs to Allah for the welfare of near relatives, orphans and travelers.

 

In Tafsir Saafi Imam Jafar (as) has been quoted as saying that "Fai is that property.... which is for Allah and His Messenger (saw) and after him for one who is incharge"  

 

In al-Kafi Imam Jafar (as) says that after prophet such property goes to imam who can use it as per his wishes.

 

4. Being imam of Muslims after Holy Prophet (saw), Abu Bakr (ra) was in-charge of Fai... a property not meant for inheritence.

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1. First of all, i usually won't judge and rank the companions with my limited knowledge of their lives. Anyways Ali (ra) was indeed best of the judges as per the tradition quoted and there are other merits of Ali (ra) too who nobody could match... however the tradition quoted above also talks about some other subjects in which other people possessed more knowledge (but not necessarily possessed all the knowledge). furthermore Ali (ra) was above erring? this is not proven and also he says in Nahjul Balagha "Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring. I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah."

 

2. i have not read anything explicit about that. Even if it is true... i believe it was a matter better adjudged by Abu bakr (ra) for following reasons.

 

My Argument:

 

1. Fadak was "Fai"

 

2. "Fai" could not be divided as Ghanimah as per Surah Hasr:6 :"And what Allah restored (afa'Allaho [of property]) to His Messenger from them - you did not spur for it [in an expedition] any horses or camels" because other Muslims did not fight for such property they could not claim it.

 

3. The usage of "Fai" has been clearly defined in Surah Hashr:7 in Quran "And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler " that Prophet (saw) as an incharge would use this property, which in essence belongs to Allah for the welfare of near relatives, orphans and travelers.

 

In Tafsir Saafi Imam Jafar (as) has been quoted as saying that "Fai is that property.... which is for Allah and His Messenger (saw) and after him for one who is incharge"  

 

In al-Kafi Imam Jafar (as) says that after prophet such property goes to imam who can use it as per his wishes.

 

4. Being imam of Muslims after Holy Prophet (saw), Abu Bakr (ra) was in-charge of Fai... a property not meant for inheritence.

Don't you think that that was exactly the argument of sayyida Fatimah? That she inherited her father ? Her father's knowledge and her father's rights in anfal.

And she thought that Abu Bakr despite being on charge has no right to take care of anfal , which means she did not recognize him as rightful caliph.

This also explains the answer of imam Musa when Haroon asked him to define fadak borders, imam drew the birders of the Islamic territories back then because that's what fadak represents.

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Don't you think that that was exactly the argument of sayyida Fatimah? That she inherited her father ? Her father's knowledge and her father's rights in anfal.

And she thought that Abu Bakr despite being on charge has no right to take care of anfal , which means she did not recognize him as rightful caliph.

This also explains the answer of imam Musa when Haroon asked him to define fadak borders, imam drew the birders of the Islamic territories back then because that's what fadak represents.

Beautiful story and enlightening answer!

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1. First of all, i usually won't judge and rank the companions with my limited knowledge of their lives. Anyways Ali (ra) was indeed best of the judges as per the tradition quoted and there are other merits of Ali (ra) too who nobody could match... however the tradition quoted above also talks about some other subjects in which other people possessed more knowledge (but not necessarily possessed all the knowledge). furthermore Ali (ra) was above erring? this is not proven and also he says in Nahjul Balagha "Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring. I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah."

 

 

 

First of all you are quoting Imam Ali (a.s.) out of context, are you saying that Imam Ali (a.s) was forgetful when he requested Fadak?

 

Secondly you just admitted that Imam Ali (a.s) was the best of judges, so are you saying that the person who was a master in his field didn't know such a simple ruling that prophets do not inherit?

 

 

 
2. i have not read anything explicit about that. Even if it is true... i believe it was a matter better adjudged by Abu bakr (ra) for following reasons.

 

 

This proves to me you're wasting my time and yours and that you're actually not reading my first post above.

 

My Argument:
 
1. Fadak was "Fai"
 
2. "Fai" could not be divided as Ghanimah as per Surah Hasr:6 :"And what Allah restored (afa'Allaho [of property]) to His Messenger from them - you did not spur for it [in an expedition] any horses or camels" because other Muslims did not fight for such property they could not claim it.
 
3. The usage of "Fai" has been clearly defined in Surah Hashr:7 in Quran "And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler " that Prophet (saw) as an incharge would use this property, which in essence belongs to Allah for the welfare of near relatives, orphans and travelers.

 

 

Again, the property belonged to the prophet (saw) and it was his own property however he was commanded to use this property for the people, you are missing this point. Allah and his prophet may do what they want with the land as they wish, if Allah wants the prophet to use fadak for the poor then it is used, if he wants the prophet (saw) to use it for the traveler then it is used for the traveler, the point is that the property belongs to Allah and his Messenger no one else, and they can do with it as they please, the will of Allah and the will of the prophet is the same. So if the prophet and Allah wish they can gift it .....  Again we read the following.....
 
The famous Shafii Mujtahid who the current school relies upon today for mutamad rulings Imam al nawawi says the following in his famous sharh:
 
وكذلك نصف أرض فدك صالح أهلها بعد فتح خيبر على نصف أرضها وكان خالصا له وكذلك ثلث أرض وادي القرى أخذه في الصلح حين صالح أهلها اليهود وكذلك حصنان من حصون خيبر…. فكانت هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره
 
“Half the Land of Fadak, which was given by the Jews following the peace treaty, was purely the property of Rasool Allah (s). Similarly, one third of the Valley of Qura which was given by the Jews after the peace treaty and two forts of Khayber…all these were the exclusive properties of the Prophet (s) and no one else had a share of it”.
 
 
Imam Ibn Habban also testified that:
 
فكانت فدك لرسول الله خالصة
“Fadak was an exclusive property of Allah’s Apostle”
 
Fakhir Ad-deen Ar razi explains in his tafseer:
{ وَمَآ أَفَآءَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ مِنْهُمْ فَمَآ أَوْجَفْتُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ خَيْلٍ وَلاَ رِكَابٍ وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُسَلِّطُ رُسُلَهُ عَلَىٰ مَن يَشَآءُ وَٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ }
ومعنى الآية أن الصحابة طلبوا من الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام أن يقسم الفيء بينهم كما قسم الغنيمة بينهم، فذكر الله الفرق بين الأمرين، وهو أن الغنيمة ما أتعبتم أنفسكم في تحصيلها وأوجفتم عليها الخيل والركاب بخلاف الفيء فإنكم ما تحملتم في تحصيله تعباً، فكان الأمر فيه مفوضاً إلى الرسول يضعه حيث يشاء.
 
The meaning of the verse is that the companions requested from the prophet that he would divide the fay property evenly among them as the ghaneema property divided, so Allah mentioned the difference between the two, and that is that the ghaneema property is what you acquire through exerting yourselves in acquiring it through military fighting in contrast to fay, for you did not carry yourselves in acquiring it, so the matter is passed on to the prophet to do with as he pleases.
 
A little more down we read :
فصارت تلك القرى والأموال في يد الرسول عليه السلام من غير حرب فكان عليه الصلاة والسلام يأخذ من غلة فدك نفقته ونفقة من يعوله، ويجعل الباقي في السلاح والكراع
So the villages and wealth was in the ownership of rasulallah without battle so the prophet (saw) would take from the produce of fadak its expenditure, and he would leave the rest for the state.
 
Tafsir Ibn katheer :
 
قال تعالى: { فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِى ٱلْقُرْبَىٰ وَٱلْيَتَامَىٰ وَٱلْمَسَـٰكِينِ وَٱبْنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ } إلى آخرها، والتي بعدها، فهذه مصارف أموال الفيء ووجوهه. قال الإمام أحمد: حدثنا سفيان، عن عمرو ومَعْمر، عن الزهري، عن مالك بن أوس بن الحدثان، عن عمر، رضي الله عنه قال: كانت أموال بني النضير مما أفاء الله على رسوله مما لو يوجف المسلمون عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، فكانت لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خالصة،
“and this is the dealings of the wealth of fay and it’s aspects. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said “ Sufyan reported to me from amru from zuhri, from malik from umar that he said “the wealth of bani nadheer was what Allah granted to rasulallah which was not acquired by military fighting  by the Muslims, so it was the property of rasullah alone."
In Tafsir Saafi Imam Jafar (as) has been quoted as saying that "Fai is that property.... which is for Allah and His Messenger (saw) and after him for one who is incharge"  
 

 

 

Again this is correct, we do not deny this hadith. The property left over as fai belongs to the rightful Imam (a.s) and essentially Allah, and they may do with as they please, if Allah commands it to be gifted then it's gifted.....

 

 

In al-Kafi Imam Jafar (as) says that after prophet such property goes to imam who can use it as per his wishes.

 

 

Post the hadith in Arabic, stop giving us English material, we can't verify what you're bringing to us. Same answer as above.

 
4. Being imam of Muslims after Holy Prophet (saw), Abu Bakr (ra) was in-charge of Fai... a property not meant for inheritence.

 

 

Again we don't care if you believe Abu Bakr is the Imam, we don't care for your opinion, what we care about is that you confirm two points then we can move to the others points.

 

1- Ali is the best of judges.

 

2- Ali requested Fadak and judge that it belonged to Fatima.

 

3- Fadak was the property of rasullalah

 

4- Fadak can be gifted

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First of all you are quoting Imam Ali (a.s.) out of context, are you saying that Imam Ali (a.s) was forgetful when he requested Fadak?

 

Secondly you just admitted that Imam Ali (a.s) was the best of judges, so are you saying that the person who was a master in his field didn't know such a simple ruling that prophets do not inherit?

1. Brother if i am missing out something from your earlier post, i request you to copy the text again. I did visit a link that you referred to http://www.dd-sunnah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=72080... with my basic understanding of Arabic i could not translate whether Ibn Taymiah, a controversial personality around 700AH is confirming what you are claiming. A person who is a master in a field can make mistake. But whether Ali (ra) did make a sincere mistake or not it would only be clear once we know that he demanded that piece of land.

 

 

Again I answered this above ^

 
The famous Shafii Mujtahid who the current school relies upon today for mutamad rulings Imam al nawawi says the following in his famous sharh:
 
وكذلك نصف أرض فدك صالح أهلها بعد فتح خيبر على نصف أرضها وكان خالصا له وكذلك ثلث أرض وادي القرى أخذه في الصلح حين صالح أهلها اليهود وكذلك حصنان من حصون خيبر…. فكانت هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره
 
“Half the Land of Fadak, which was given by the Jews following the peace treaty, was purely the property of Rasool Allah (s). Similarly, one third of the Valley of Qura which was given by the Jews after the peace treaty and two forts of Khayber…all these were the exclusive properties of the Prophet (s) and no one else had a share of it”.
 
 
Imam Ibn Habban also testified that:
 
فكانت فدك لرسول الله خالصة
“Fadak was an exclusive property of Allah’s Apostle”
 
Fakhir Ad-deen Ar razi explains in his tafseer:
{ وَمَآ أَفَآءَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ رَسُولِهِ مِنْهُمْ فَمَآ أَوْجَفْتُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ خَيْلٍ وَلاَ رِكَابٍ وَلَـٰكِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يُسَلِّطُ رُسُلَهُ عَلَىٰ مَن يَشَآءُ وَٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ }
ومعنى الآية أن الصحابة طلبوا من الرسول عليه الصلاة والسلام أن يقسم الفيء بينهم كما قسم الغنيمة بينهم، فذكر الله الفرق بين الأمرين، وهو أن الغنيمة ما أتعبتم أنفسكم في تحصيلها وأوجفتم عليها الخيل والركاب بخلاف الفيء فإنكم ما تحملتم في تحصيله تعباً، فكان الأمر فيه مفوضاً إلى الرسول يضعه حيث يشاء.
 
The meaning of the verse is that the companions requested from the prophet that he would divide the fay property evenly among them as the ghaneema property divided, so Allah mentioned the difference between the two, and that is that the ghaneema property is what you acquire through exerting yourselves in acquiring it through military fighting in contrast to fay, for you did not carry yourselves in acquiring it, so the matter is passed on to the prophet to do with as he pleases.
 
A little more down we read :
فصارت تلك القرى والأموال في يد الرسول عليه السلام من غير حرب فكان عليه الصلاة والسلام يأخذ من غلة فدك نفقته ونفقة من يعوله، ويجعل الباقي في السلاح والكراع
So the villages and wealth was in the ownership of rasulallah without battle so the prophet (saw) would take from the produce of fadak its expenditure, and he would leave the rest for the state.
 
Tafsir Ibn katheer :
 
قال تعالى: { فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ وَلِذِى ٱلْقُرْبَىٰ وَٱلْيَتَامَىٰ وَٱلْمَسَـٰكِينِ وَٱبْنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ } إلى آخرها، والتي بعدها، فهذه مصارف أموال الفيء ووجوهه. قال الإمام أحمد: حدثنا سفيان، عن عمرو ومَعْمر، عن الزهري، عن مالك بن أوس بن الحدثان، عن عمر، رضي الله عنه قال: كانت أموال بني النضير مما أفاء الله على رسوله مما لو يوجف المسلمون عليه بخيل ولا ركاب، فكانت لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم خالصة،
“and this is the dealings of the wealth of fay and it’s aspects. Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said “ Sufyan reported to me from amru from zuhri, from malik from umar that he said “the wealth of bani nadheer was what Allah granted to rasulallah which was not acquired by military fighting  by the Muslims, so it was the property of rasullah alone."

 

You just proved our point using this Hadith lol. you're admitting that fai is a property where the prophet (saw) can do what he wants with and put incharge who he wishes.

 

Yes. i agree with the above. And whoever the incharge is after him (saw) can also use its income for purposes as mentioned in Quran. but it was never and could never be a personal property of anyone. That is why it is meant to transfer from Imam to another.

 

 

Post the hadith in Arabic, stop giving us English material, we can't verify what you're bringing to us. BTW are you even reading the hadith you're posting to me? This hadith is proving you wrong,  we also agree that the property may go to who the prophet (saw) wishes, when Fadak was given to Fatima (a.s) it was also given to Imam ali (a.s) because Imam Ali (a.s) is the Imam of Fatima and her husband.

I will post in Arabic if i knew how to attach an image or copy Arabic text from PDF files. Still i would try and you can assist. 

 

Regarding prophet (saw) giving it to Bibi Fatimah and Ali (ra)... this never happened as it was not a personal property that belonged to prophet (saw) but was Fai  and its income was going to be used for welfare of near relatives, travelers etc by the custodian.  

 

It is very unlikely that Rasool Allah (saw), someone who did not even like small ornaments with Faitma (as) which she acquired out of her pure income/saving would gift a land (fai) generating about 24,000 Dinars to her daughter alone and would leave orphans and poors

 

I believe you cannot quote a single hadith from Sihah Sittah that it was ever gifted... not even from Shia Isha Arba'a...

 

the traditions that you are quoting from some other books have narrators which are proven Shias. like Atia Oufi who is a Shia and a Mudallis and narrates from his Shia sheikh Said Al-Kalbi and has never narrated from Said Al-Khudri. Therefore, earlier Shia narrations that started talking about Hiba of Fadak after 400AH did not call Abu Said as Abu said "Khudri" and only later on to give weightage to their claim they started calling Kalbi the mentor of Atia Oufi as khudri. Related info has been revealed by Imam Sakhawi in his Sharah. Similarly Fadil bin Marzooq, who is a shia narrator narrates from Atia Oufi - Tehzeeb al Tehzeeb (i will copy the Arabic text.)

 

Similarly Ali bin Abbas Arzaq asadi, another narrator of such traditions is a Daeef narrator. Ibad bin Yaqoob, another narrator is a known shia. (tehzeeb al tehzeeb... i will InshaAllah quote Arabic text)

 

Brother, Can you do us a favor of giving us Just one narration regarding Hiba of Fadak  from Ahlus Sunnah Books with complete chain of narrators... Just one narration that you consider to be single most important narration. Thanks

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Let's go step by step so we can answer your doubts, for my first point you said .

 

1- Ali is the best of judges. He was a judge but not infallible. 

 

 

 

We are not speaking about infallibility, we are speaking about his abilities to judge in this specific situation.

 

If you can answer this question it will be more clear for you, is it unlikely or likely that the best judge in Islam would make a mistake on a court issue that is simple as inheritance?  This is my question to you regarding this point.

 

 
2- Ali requested Fadak and judge that it belonged to Fatima.  Lets see

 

 

It is common knowledge that he requested Fadak.

 

 
3- Fadak was the property of rasullalah (SAW) ... as custodian and not his personal property.

 

 

Do you know who Imam An-nawawai is? This is what he said regarding whether or not this is his personal property.

 

 
وكذلك نصف أرض فدك صالح أهلها بعد فتح خيبر على نصف أرضها وكان خالصا له وكذلك ثلث أرض وادي القرى أخذه في الصلح حين صالح أهلها اليهود وكذلك حصنان من حصون خيبر…. فكانت هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره

 

 
4- Fadak can be gifted. NO. I have already given reasons above that the tradition claiming Hiba are not reliable.

 

 

Can Allah gift Fadak?

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Salam, First of all, I want to say thanks for correcting my mistake. I meant to say Abbas and not ibn abbas. i didn't notice my mistake. Thanks for pointing it out for me. Secondly, Bukhari has a known record of "watering down" certain hadith when it comes to the honor of certain sahabas. But i don't want to deviate from this topic. I will give couple of examples which prove imam Ali (as) was the most knowledgeable after the holy prophet (s). 

 

We find a Narration in Musnad Ahmad:

 

1719 – حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ، عَنْ شَرِيكٍ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ هُبَيْرَةَ، خَطَبَنَا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ رَضِيَ اللهُ عَنْهُ، فَقَالَ: ” لَقَدْ فَارَقَكُمْ رَجُلٌ بِالْأَمْسِ لَمْ يَسْبِقْهُ الْأَوَّلُونَ بِعِلْمٍ، وَلا يُدْرِكُهُ الْآخِرُونَ، كَانَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ، يَبْعَثُهُ بِالرَّايَةِ جِبْرِيلُ عَنْ يَمِينِهِ، وَمِيكَائِيلُ عَنْ شِمَالِهِ لَا يَنْصَرِفُ حَتَّى يُفْتَحَ لَهُ ”

 

Hubaira says: Imam Hasan delivered a sermon, and said: That Man separated from You people yesterday, whom none could exceed in Knowledge in Past nor people would get that in future. Holy Prophet (s) would send him with Flag & Jibraeel would be on His Right side and Mikael on left. He would not return till He got victory. 

Sheikh Ahmad Shakir termed The Chain Saheeh/Authentic in His research upon Musnad Ahmad, 2/344

 

 

 

 

Second proof: The holy prophet said: "I am the city of knowledge and I and Ali its gate."  We know sunnis are rijal freaks so I am going to show you brothers a perfect sahih flawless chain, which no knowledgeable sunni can ever dispute when they study its narrators.

 

It is from Mustadrak al-Hakim, Vol. 3:

 

عن سفيان بن سعيد الثوري (من رجال الصحاح الستة) عن عبد الله بن عثمان بن خثيم (وثّقه : ابن معين والعجلي والنسائي وابن سعد وذكره ابن حبّان في الثقات وقال أبو حاتم : ما به بأس صالح الحديث) عن عبد الرحمن بن بهمان (ذكره ابن حبّان في الثقات ووثّقه ابن حجر في التهذيب وتقريب التهذيب ، وكذا غيرها) قال : سمعت جابر بن عبد الله يقول : سمعت رسول الله يقول : " أنا مدينة العلم وعلي بابها فمن أراد العلم فليأت من الباب ".

Sufyan ibn Sa'eed al-Thawri - Abdullah ibn Uthman ibn Khuthaym - Abdur-Rahman ibn Bahmaan - Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansar - the Holy Prophet  (pbuh) said:

I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is the Gate. WHOSOEVER desires the City must go through the Gate.

All the narrators are thiqah:

1. Sufyan ibn Sa'eed al-Thawri: One of the narrators of Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

2. Abdullah ibn Uthman ibn Khuthaym: Ibn Hibban has included his name in his Thuqaat, and Ibn Ma'een, al-Ajli, Nisai, Abu Hatim and Ibn Sa'eed have all declared him thiqah.

3. Abdur-Rahman ibn Bahmaan: Ibn Hibban has included his name in his Thuqaat. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has declared him thiqah in both tahdheeb al-Tahdheeb and Taqreeb al-Tahdheeb.

4. Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansari: A prominent Companion.

 

 

 

I challenge Farid or to any other sunni who is a rijal expert to refute this hadith from al-hakim. Anyway, I hope this clears all doubts on who had the most knowledge after the holy prophet (s). 

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Let's go step by step so we can answer your doubts, for my first point you said .

 

We are not speaking about infallibility, we are speaking about his abilities to judge in this specific situation.

 

If you can answer this question it will be more clear for you, is it unlikely or likely that the best judge in Islam would make a mistake on a court issue that is simple as inheritance?  This is my question to you regarding this point.

 

 

 

It is common knowledge that he requested Fadak.

 

 

Do you know who Imam An-nawawai is? This is what he said regarding whether or not this is his personal property.

 

 
وكذلك نصف أرض فدك صالح أهلها بعد فتح خيبر على نصف أرضها وكان خالصا له وكذلك ثلث أرض وادي القرى أخذه في الصلح حين صالح أهلها اليهود وكذلك حصنان من حصون خيبر…. فكانت هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره

 

 

Can Allah gift Fadak?

1. I had already requested you to copy for me a text that explicitly says that Ali (ra) asked for inheritance of Fadak... but you have not quoted. So how can i suggest if Ali (ra) had ever made judgement on the issue or not.

 

2. هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره it indeed was Restored to Rasool Allah (saw) as Fai and nobody else had a share in it, as i have myself quoted from Quran in favor of this. (Surah Hasr:6 :"And what Allah restored (afa'Allaho [of property]) to His Messenger from them - you did not spur for it [in an expedition] any horses or camels" because other Muslims did not fight for such property they could not claim it.)

 

3. Allah can gift Fadak but not Rasool Allah (saw). Allah Restores the said property not Rasool Allah (saw).

 

Now, please answer to my arguments quoted in above two posts from Quran regarding Fai and its usage and from what Aima Ahlybait thought of such property and regarding narrations and narrators of traditions regarding Hiba etc. 

 

I again ask you to do us a favor of giving Just one narration regarding Hiba of Fadak  from Ahlus Sunnah books with complete chain of narrators... Just one narration that you consider to be single most important narration. Thanks

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It's hilarious that those who claim Allah has hands because that is what the verse says will analyze a hadith letter for letter, chain by chain, version by version and go as deep as the bottom of the ocean only to prove that something else was meant or not meant at all when in favor of Imam Ali a.s. or Lady Fatima a.s.

You do as if they were all academics and Phd's when it came to communication or talk a language of angels that cannot be understood by laymen while they were just plain Arabs telling eachother in clear Arab what they had on their heart and in their mind. 

And ofcourse the discussion is ever on-going while the choices are already made.

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2. هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره it indeed was Restored to Rasool Allah (saw) as Fai and nobody else had a share in it, as i have myself quoted from Quran in favor of this. (Surah Hasr:6 :"And what Allah restored (afa'Allaho [of property]) to His Messenger from them - you did not spur for it [in an expedition] any horses or camels" because other Muslims did not fight for such property they could not claim it.)

 

3. Allah can gift Fadak but not Rasool Allah (saw). Allah Restores the said property not Rasool Allah (saw).

 

 

I am intrigued of your comprehension level in understanding Surah Al-Hashr verse 6, Which part of Surah Al-Hashr dose Allah swt states: Rasulillah share can only be distributed by Allah swt? I eagerly await your response...

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I am intrigued of your comprehension level in understanding Surah Al-Hashr verse 6, Which part of Surah Al-Hashr dose Allah swt states: Rasulillah share can only be distributed by Allah swt? I eagerly await your response...

Ohh Dear ... where in my posts did i say that Rasool Allah's (SAW) share can only be distributed by Allah?

 

All i said was that the Land in essence belonged to Allah only. Rasool Allah is only custodian of such property which is "Fai". Since land belongs to Allah in essence, He is the one who decides... like He decides and tells in Quran that earning from Fai property will be utilized for near-relatives, orphans and travelers. He has defined the purpose. He could have also gifted that land to someone. He can do whatever He wants. It is not Rasool Allah (saw) who decides that whether it will be his personal property or else.

 

Now my question to you is that... was not Fadak "Fai" property?

 

And since your comprehension level is convincing... please enumerate about what Quran tells about "Fai"?

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3. Allah can gift Fadak but not Rasool Allah (saw). Allah Restores the said property not Rasool Allah (saw).

 

If you just care  to elaborate the above quote, because i get the impression, that after Allah swt had distributed  the booty, to those who ARE entitled to it, including 1/5 share of Rasulillah share, it appears you are suggesting then only Allah SWT CAN DISTRIBUTE RASULILLAH SHARE ?

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3. Allah can gift Fadak but not Rasool Allah (saw). Allah Restores the said property not Rasool Allah (saw).

 

If you just care  to elaborate the above quote, because i get the impression, that after Allah swt had distributed  the booty, to those who ARE entitled to it, including 1/5 share of Rasulillah share, it appears you are suggesting then only Allah SWT CAN DISTRIBUTE RASULILLAH SHARE ?

 

No no brother... i am not talking about Ghanimah or 1/5th share of Rasool Allah (saw) as booty. i am talking about such property which is called Fai.

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Abu-Bakar was Guilty upon his acts

As proof we shall cite:

  1. Tareekh Tabari Volume 2 page 24
  2. Kanz al Khitab al Khilafath ma al Maar Volume 3 page 135
  3. Al Imama wa al Siyasa Volume 1 page 18, Dhikr Wafaath Abu Bakr
  4. Murujh al Dhahab Volume 2 page 308 Dhikr Khilafath Abu Bakr
  5. Iqd al Fareed, Dhikr Wafaath Abu Bakr Volume 2 page 208

We read in Tabari:

Abu Bakr said ‘I did three things that I now regret, they are:

  1. That I failed to show respect towards the house of Fatima
  2. I did not burn Fajaf Salmah
  3. At Saqifa I transferred Khilafath to Abu Ubaydah or Umar


There are three things that I wish I had done:

  1. When Asheesh bin Qays was brought before me as prisoner I should have had him killed
  2. When I sent Khalid bin Waleed to the Land of the Kuffar I should have turned him in the direction of Zay Qasa
  3. When sending Khalid to Syria I should have sent Umar to Iraq


I regret that I did not get clarification from Rasulullah (s) on three matters:

  1. Whether the Ansar had a share in the Khilafath
  2. Who would succeed him (s) as Khalifa
  3. The inheritance of an aunt and nephew
    Tareekh al-Tabari, Vol. 2, Page 619

These five esteemed Sunni scholars noted Abu Bakr’s admission of his mistakes, so why do his modern day champions go mad when we accuse Abu Bakr of making a mistake on the Fadak issue?


Brother you've taken this Hadith very much out of context. I will post it for you so Insha Allah we can explain what actually is going on in this Hadith. It is a long Hadith so I will make the important parts bold. 

 

 

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:

 
Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distributed among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.
 
As we can see this is 'Umar ibn al-Khattab رضي الله عنه‎ sorting out a dispute between 'Ali رضي الله عنه‎ and al-'Abbas رضي الله عنه‎ over the booty and abandoned properties of Banu Nadir. This is clearly shown in Chapter 15 http://sunnah.com/muslim/32. In fact this has almost nothing to do with Fadak, if you read the full Hadith it seems to imply that Fadak is no longer an issue and has been settled. So it is rather inappropriate to use this Hadith as evidence. 
 
 

Brother with all due respect I find it very deceitful that this Hadith is used. Here is the full Hadith to prove my point. 

 

It was narrated from Anas bin Malik that:
The Messenger of Allah said: The most merciful of my Ummah towards my Ummah is Abu Bakr; the one who adheres most sternly to the religion of Allah is 'Umar; the most sincere of them in shyness and modesty is 'Uthman; the best judge is 'Ali bin Abu Talib; the best in reciting the Book of Allah is Ubayy bin Ka'b; the most knowledgeable of what is lawful and unlawful is Mu'adh bin Jabal; and the most knowledgeable of the rules of inheritance (Fara'id) is Zaid bin Thabit. And every nation has a trustworthy guardian, and the trustworthy guardian of this Ummah is Abu 'Ubaidah bin Jarrah."
Nowhere does it say 'Ali رضي الله عنه‎ is more knowledgeable, in fact it says clearly in the areas that I have made bold that he was not as knowledgeable as others in certain areas. A good judge isn't necessarily the most knowledgeable. A good judge is someone who can see the evidence and make a fair and balanced judgement based on that evidence. 

 

In this Hadith you have unknowingly shot yourself in the foot. Because it is a part of the Shi'ah beliefs that 'Ali was oppressed by 'Umar, but here we see 'Umar allowing him and even requesting him to voice his opinion. Another thing is that 'Umar didn't just ask for 'Ali's advice. He did it with many other companions, here is a good article with an entire list with references to prove it http://twelvershia.net/2013/04/24/ameer-al-mumineen-umar-bin-al-khattab-ra-just-and-god-fearing-ruler-or-oppressive-dictator/ .

 

 

Yes... This is what Sunnis have been saying about Fadak for 1400 years

 

 

I'd like to see the chain for this please.

 

 

I'd like to please see some evidence for this, because according to the Hadith that you yourself posted, 'Ali and 'Abbas agreed with Abu Bakr's Fatwa. 

 

 

Am I misunderstanding something? There was a direct heir so it seems there isn't really much point on using this for a debate, unless I'm misreading it. 

 

 

Insha Allah ta 'ala this will clear up some doubts for you http://www.islamawareness.net/Prophets/sulaiman.html

Imam Ali said: “When there are two differing calls, then one is towards misguidance”

  • If Hadhrat Fatima (as) was wrong in claiming her right, then why did she become ANGRY with Abu Bakr, and did not forgive him till she died? •
  • Were not six months long enough to inquire about the Hadeeth (“We Prophets do not leave inheritance…”) whether if it was genuine or not? Could a sane person really imagine that Hadhrat Fatima’s anger was based on assumption for the whole period of 6 months?
  • Had Hadhrat Fatima (as) been unaware of the Hadeeth quoted by Abu Bakr, then surely there were still many companions living, to be approached and questioned about the matter, but guess what? Abu Bakr was the only person who knew about it, hence she passed away while being angry with Abu Bakr.
  • Was not Imam Ali (as), who was very well versed with the teachings of the Holy Qur’an, there to inform his wife, Hadhrat Fatima, that what Abu Bakr claims is authentic and not to dispute with him? Nay! The results were opposite! Imam Ali (as) himself went to Abu Bakr with the same claim. •… Omar said: “You have come to me with the same claim”… “You said Abu Bakr was so and so…” (Sahih Bukhari Hadeeth: 5.367) Why did Imam Ali (as) and Hadhrat Abbas, go to Omar with the same claim, when Abu Bakr must have given them the same answer? And what does this sentence apply: “You said Abu Bakr was so and so” Does Omar mean to say that Imam Ali (as) and Hadhrat Abbas disbelieved in his words? Certainly they did! Otherwise why would they go to the next Caliph for the same claim?

    Please....Research about the History Mate

Sunni scholar Dr Tahir ul Qadri in his book on the virtues of Sayyida Fatima (as) ‘Al Durr’athul Baydh fee Manaqib Fatima al Zahra (as)’ page 56 records this Hadeeth.

Miswar narrates that Rasulullah (s) said ‘Verily Fatima is my … I desire whatever she desires, and whatever pains her, pains me’

Qadri narrated this tradition from the following esteemed Sunni works:

  1. al Mustadrak al Hakim Volume 3 page 168
  2. Musnad Ahman ibn Hanbal Volume 4 page 332
  3. Fadail as Sahaba by Ibn Hanbal Volume 2 page 765
  4. Al Had wa’l Mushaanee by Shaybaanee Volume 5 page 362
  5. Muhimm al Kabeer by Tabrani Volume 20 page 28
  6. Muhimm al Zawaad Volume 9 page 203
  7. Hilayathul Awliyaa by Abu Naeem Volume 3 page 206
  8. Seera al Alam al Nada bu Dhahabi Volume 2 page 132
  9. Fathul Baree bu Ibn Hajr Asqalani Volume 9 page 329
  10. Tafseer ibn Katheer Volume 3 page 257

Al Duratul Baydha fi Manaqib Fatima al-Zahra (as), Page 56

On the next page (57-58) Qadri records this narration recorded by Sakhawi in Ishtajlab ir-Taqaa al-Gharf Bahib Aqrabaa ar-Rasool Wadhawi ash-Sharaf, pages 96-97:

Sad bin Abi Qurshee narrates that Hadhrath Abdullah bin Hasan bin Hasan bin Ali bin Abi Talib who had not yet attained puberty approached Umar bin Abdul Aziz in relation to a matter. Umar suspended his gathering heard the matter and fulfilled his need. He then squeezed his stomach in such a manner that he began to feel pain, with that he said to him ‘Remember this on the Day of Judgement at the time of intercession’. When he left the people asked why he dedicated such time to this child. He replied ‘I heard a Hadeeth from a Thiqah narrator who said ‘I heard the Prophet (s) sayd ‘Fatima is a part of my body I desire whatever she desires’.

He then said ‘If Fatima was here then this would have been what she desired, in the way that I had treated her son. They then asked ‘Why did you embrace him in such a manner and say what you did?’. Umar bin Abdul Aziz replied ‘There is not even one person amongst the Banu Hashim who hasn’t been given the rights of intercession, I desire to attain intercession through this boy.
 Al Duratul Baydha fi Manaqib Fatima al-Zahra (sa), Page 57

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Ohh Dear ... where in my posts did i say that Rasool Allah's (SAW) share can only be distributed by Allah?

 

All i said was that the Land in essence belonged to Allah only. Rasool Allah is only custodian of such property which is "Fai". Since land belongs to Allah in essence, He is the one who decides... like He decides and tells in Quran that earning from Fai property will be utilized for near-relatives, orphans and travelers. He has defined the purpose. He could have also gifted that land to someone. He can do whatever He wants. It is not Rasool Allah (saw) who decides that whether it will be his personal property or else.

 

Now my question to you is that... was not Fadak "Fai" property?

 

And since your comprehension level is convincing... please enumerate about what Quran tells about "Fai"?

 

7. What Allah gave as booty to His Messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah, His Messenger, the kindred, the orphans, the poor, and the stranded such that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it; and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain [from it] and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Severe in chastisement

 

I am having difficulty,  understanding  where Allah swt, has made such clause, that Rasulillah has no ownership of fai? When you are referring  to Rasulillah becoming "ONLY A CUSTODIAN", of  assets that has been obtained by Fai,  then i have to say,  regrettably that you are  mistranslating  verse 7...

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To be honest I think that bukhari is sincere and is actually researching the truth, so I will focus on him. I make a request for the people reading my posts to please read it slowly and absorb what I'm saying before trying to address me.

 

 

 

1. I had already requested you to copy for me a text that explicitly says that Ali (ra) asked for inheritance of Fadak... but you have not quoted. So how can i suggest if Ali (ra) had ever made judgement on the issue or not.

 

 

Please refer to the upper posts where you can see Ali (a.s) requesting the land of banu nadeer(Fadak,Khaybar)

 

 
2. هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره it indeed was Restored to Rasool Allah (saw) as Fai and nobody else had a share in it, as i have myself quoted from Quran in favor of this. (Surah Hasr:6 :"And what Allah restored (afa'Allaho [of property]) to His Messenger from them - you did not spur for it [in an expedition] any horses or camels" because other Muslims did not fight for such property they could not claim it.)

 

 

Ok so then we agree that it is the property of Rasulallah (saw). Now my second question regarding this second point is, is the prophet (saw) allowed to do what he wishes with his own property, yes or no?


 
3. Allah can gift Fadak but not Rasool Allah (saw). Allah Restores the said property not Rasool Allah (saw).
 

 

 

My first question regarding this point, can Allah order his prophet to gift Fadak?

 

Don't you know there is no difference between saying that Allah can gift Fadak and the Prophet (saw) can gift Fadak? The Shia believe that the prophet (saw) gifted Fadak on the order of Allah. The prophet (saw) only acts with the will of Allah, he does what Allah (swt) tells him to do.

 

My second question regarding this point, we just admitted that the property belongs to Rasulallah(saw), if it is his property are you saying that he isn't allowed to do what he wishes with his property?

 

 

 

Now, please answer to my arguments quoted in above two posts from Quran regarding Fai and its usage and from what Aima Ahlybait thought of such property and regarding narrations and narrators of traditions regarding Hiba etc. 
 

 

 

The second ayat you posted regarding the wayfayer is correct. The land belongs to Allah and his apostle, when it says the land is for the wayfayer and the poor it doesn't mean that it's public property, rather it means that Allah and his Messenger out of their mercy lets them use their property and not that the wayfayer has any wilaya or share in it. I hope you understand now.

 

 

 

I again ask you to do us a favor of giving Just one narration regarding Hiba of Fadak  from Ahlus Sunnah books with complete chain of narrators... Just one narration that you consider to be single most important narration. Thanks
 

 

 

Instead of playing the rijal game with you I think it would be more interesting to show you that it is possible for Fadak to be gifted, that is the entire point. If it is possible for Fadak to be gifted then Abu bakr was wrong and he took the right away from fatima (a.s)

 

So me showing you a sanad that the prophet (saw) gifted Fatima (a.s) would be completely irrelevant, when you just admitted that Allah without being unjust can order his prophet (saw)to gift Fadak.

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