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Haydar Husayn

Is Sexual Orientation A Choice?

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Great post Haydar, and definitely gorgeous quotations here from key people at the subject. I believe you are addressing a real change happening in the LGBT political message.

Just today I was talking with a lesbian colleague. We were arguin about the normalization of homosexuality. She was balming and criminalizimg as discriminatory the current political efforts on the gay propaganda (which are inherited from the 90s as the AtB book clearly shows).

I came to the conclusion (though I was already aware to certain extent because of other many conversations with other homosexual people) that modern gays are not even aware of why homosexuality became normalized in the first place. I was amazed at seeing a lesbian condemning the movement that started on the 90s. But this is what is happening now. The last move is the absolute normalization through total indifference and acceptance of homosexuality, to the point it is not even discussed. I myself was criticized for talking in a discriminatory way towards gays just because I was defending that it was positive discrimination and the political efforts (propagandistic mainly) what gave the LGBT community the achievements that has got within the last two decades (I must be getting old heh).

The message is changing to a point in which even debate is not welcome. You may be called an homophobe to even dare to debate about the topic. I never expected this to happen but well...

You correctly pointed out the concept of the fluid sexual orientations. Indeed, these are not set in stone (can confirm that on a personal level). Women seem to have a more fluid sexual orientation, yet men do too, to some extent.

I hold the belief that sexual behaviour is a choice, but cannot say the same about sexual orientation. But let me explain: even if we agree that sexual orientation is fluid to some extent (I believe we agree on this), I can't buy the idea you can choose at this very moment what to like. Can you, as a heterosexual man, immediately change your likes?

I believe that is a step more complex. We have to take into consideration:

- sexual orientation (regardless of how much a choice one state it is, we can't negate the fact there is some of it that is meaningful)

- sexual identity. This is very hard to deconstruct, and it is strongly linked to other views and mindsets. Let's suppose X person is gay, what will he think of himself if he manages to become straight, how will he live with his past?

- social identity. It is linked to the image we have externalized to the world. "Coming out" is an action that may be unique in our lives and changes us and the relationship we have with our close ones. A change in sexual orientation may not find success if the terrain is not paved for people to accept and understand the change to the image you are externalizing to the world.

Without doubt there are more factors than sexual orientation that define the modern concept of homosexuality. I understand that submitting to those factors (preferred sexual identity and social image) is a conscious choice. But in all honesty, and this is just my opinion, not submitting to such factors is very hard without any external support and guidance. Because you become a complete unknown to your own self.

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(salam)

I usually keep out of such discussions because mostly, many people seem to lack a rational yet sensitive approach to the subject at hand. But this is a really interesting post - the quotes are picked nicely and highlight some interesting points, definitely worth pondering over.

I have always wondered how much biology is involved in developing sexual orientation (which I'm sure it is to certain decree) and how much and what other factors play a major role. It's also strange why till date their seems to be a lack of, well, 'data' (scientific research with results) in this regard; you'd think people would be eager to bring more light on the matter- though, seeing how strong the movement is becoming in the West, people probably don't even care, anymore. But as you pointed out, even if we get more discoveries in this regard, we'd have to be careful which information to accept and which not to accept as, seeing today's environment, people will tend to be biased.

I think everyone has heard the argument that 'we don't choose to be gay' and I do believe that for some, it is true, more or less - but it's probably not true for everyone. Especially in today's time, I have the feeling that the lines between 'not choosing' and 'choosing' are blurring. Let me explain: Today's generations are quite fixated on sexuality where youths of rather young age even often feel embarrassed if they still are virgins- as if it's something to be ashamed of. Young, many people just want to have fun and enjoy life, settling down, if at all, comes much later in their lives. They are curious and experiment a lot - hence, they even experiment with their sexual orientation where heterosexuals try out the other side of the river just because they want to. It's a choice in this case, isn't it? Now, I'm not trying to generalize as that's probably not the case for the majority, but still - people are fixated on sexuality a lot, at least youths in the West (openly).

In German, they even have this saying, "Ein bisschen bi schadet nie" meaning along the lines of "A little bi (being bi) never harms" - there's this notion that every human has some homosexual tendencies which are more prevalent in some than others. Adding to this, there's also the whole 'love' factor where people say things like 'you fall in love with a person not with a gender' implying that anyone could become gay/lesbian. Romantic love is also something people are focused on a lot... All this propagation will only lead to more people becoming curious and 'trying' out to be gay even if they are not as it's being normalized.

It's rather strange. Why so much effort to make everyone accept this? I mean, fighting for your rights is one thing and it's their decision to do so, but why shove it down everyone's throats? And that question is not only aimed at homosexuals as I'm aware that many who are not, are active in this whole movement and many who are, not. It's rather ironic how people always scream 'freedom of speech' yet, can't take it on such issues - I mean, there's a huge difference between acceptance and tolerance, and between homophobic and not-agreeing/disassociating from it - it's not really hard to see that, actually. Just because Muslims condemn homosexuality doesn't mean they'll bully, beat or whatever homosexuals [e.g. be homophobic] - and if they did, they'd have to do the same with people who drink alcohol, fornicate and so on (I'm talking from a general point of view, btw).

Isn't it also the case within the Quran that not homosexuals, per se, are condemned but those amongst them who give in to their desires? In that case, it would be people who choose to identify themselves as gays or lesbians, e.g. live this life style. So, as brother Bakir pointed out, there can be distinctions into different groups like sexual orientation and sexual identity.

Either way, what I am more interested in: What about people who clearly struggle with their orientation/desires? As you pointed out, it's not as simple as 'choosing' this, while there are those who partake in gay pride parades, there are also those who clearly try to overcome this part of themselves and are in constant struggle with themselves. They'd still be labelled gay, I guess - but they don't choose whom to be attracted to [apparently]. Amongst Muslims, there definitely are some - and they don't need our condemnation or hatred but support, don't they? As I mentioned above, there's a difference between being gay and living according to it but many Muslims don't seem to realize that hence, why the situation for these affected Muslims is anything but rosy.

So, what can we do for brothers and sisters who clearly need support in their struggles? For them, something that is out of their control plays a huge role in whom they are attracted to as it's obvious that they'd do anything not to feel this attraction - whether it's biology or another factor (trauma?), I don't know.

@brother Qaim: your las paragraph is spot on. Though about those scientific researches- it would make sense although, wouldn't it also be more likely for such children to go to the other extreme, e.g. becoming homophobic or at least, keeping away from all this? Either way, that'd fall into the category of social environment and how it's shaped these kids - things are seldom simply black and white, I guess.

(wasalam)

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There is an incredible amount of pro-homosexual propaganda in the media at the moment. As Muslims, we can't just stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't affect us. These are issues that are going to be causing major ripples within the Muslim community, and I think it's best that as Muslims we try to understand what is going on, and even attempt to provide some answers as early as possible.

Obviously it is unusual for there to be quite so many topics on the issue at the moment, but that is due to the fact that it is currently very much in the news. As it dies down in the news, so it will here. And hey, at least we move away from discussing mut`a, tatbir, and Sunnism for a bit.

Thus isn't about sticking our heads in the sand, this is wasting time over something useless. Useless because with muta, tatbir and sunnism there were things to debated, differences in the schools of thought amongst shias, lots of things falling in the grey area. With homosexuality aren't the things pretty clear?? Practicing homosexuality, haram.period.

We can have threads on homosexuality from a philosophical viewpoint, a psychological viewpoint, a biological viewpoint, social view point,a theological viewpoint but is it going to change anything?? It's still

Homosexual thoughts not haram

Practicing homosexuality haram

Solution , self control just like one does with heterosexual sexual urges.

I know I will probably get lambasted but there really has been a homosexuality post overload lately.

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There is an incredible amount of pro-homosexual propaganda in the media at the moment. As Muslims, we can't just stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't affect us. These are issues that are going to be causing major ripples within the Muslim community, and I think it's best that as Muslims we try to understand what is going on, and even attempt to provide some answers as early as possible.

Obviously it is unusual for there to be quite so many topics on the issue at the moment, but that is due to the fact that it is currently very much in the news. As it dies down in the news, so it will here. And hey, at least we move away from discussing mut`a, tatbir, and Sunnism for a bit.

Brother, this last sentence made me chuckle a bit only because it is true.

It is crazy because I recall a couple months ago there was a big topic on here about homosexuality and now it is legalized in all of America. I am just wondering about how the Muslim countries will be affected in the future. Mainly the more secular muslim countries like Turkey and some parts of Lebnon and so on. 

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I have to partly agree with monad and others because, did you know, the businessmen have this saying which says that "even negative advertisement is still an effective advertisement and awareness of your product". This is why I myself deal with things like homoism, bakriism and etc with a certain definite rejection of the detrimental ideas while announcing an absence of accommodation to them. Evil should always be condemned in the very least.

 

However, I agree that we should speak out on this issue, this LGBT stench being propagated like a wildfire, and speak out in a proper and intellectual way like in this thread. Condemning this satanic act being supported by lies. The reaction should be equal and opposite.

Edited by Darth Vader

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I think the time to just say 'it's haram,take it or leave it' are over. More and more Muslims want to discuss about certain views and opinions their religion has,this is a good sign and leads to more awareness of their environment,specially in the West.

The 'overload' of this topic here is an effect of that debate culture. And since we have br.Bakir here,may Allah bless him,we got another input and insight to deal with the topic imho.

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Salam,

Discussing about a topic without reaching a conclusion for solution or reaching an understanding is not the most constructive.

There is no such a thing as same gender marriage.

Having said that, there are people who are suffering from this or better say have these tendencies without having absolute control of it. They do not deliberately choose to be this way.

These group of people are not to be blamed , because they are are a victim of a disease passed on thru pervious generations. This disease started from a sin/ transgression against Allah's command, and could possibly pass on to the future generations.

This group of people who dont choose to intentionally be something what they are inside actually have a choice.

1. Go thru surgery

2. Dress up like the gender they are inclined to internally.

Islam is a religion of inside and outside being the same.

Like hijab, if worn consciously specially , is an expression of the internal state of submitting one's self to Allah's command.So the inside and outside correspond to each other and expresses truth.

The female body is the expression of the female nafs , and the male body of the male nafs.

Nafs is our personality. So each layer is an expression for the layer beneath.

Female nafs= female body= female clothing

Male nafs = male body = male clothing

So if you are extremely internally inclined more to be a female whilst you have male physic, Dress up like a woman not a man.

So if someone sees you he will see the definition of a woman.

Same goes for a woman , if you have tendencies to be a man internally more than a woman, dress up like a man with no makeup at all times. So if a woman sees you she will see the definition of a man.

So if you are seen in public together as a couple , one would be atleast able to say from the way you dress that , one is a man and the other is a woman.

If both similar physical gender dresses up In the same manner. You are expressing and representing a similar definition.

This would be a definiation of coward gay.

That this person is not brave enough due to public opinion , still dresses up like a man but behaves and talks like a woman.

Specially in the west, unlike most of the east, freedom of expression is so encouraged. So there is no excuse left for people going thru this.

There were instances of homosexuality during the time of Imam Ali also, and based on his judgment he passed the verdict " he is a she " and can get married to the opposite gender.

Edited by tendersoul

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<a href="http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF10F01.pdf">

This seems to be a serious work, backed by empirical research. It goes argument-by-argument and takes up those pseudo-scientific 'theories' popularized by the 1990's gay movements. I request all brothers and sisters to have a look at it.

And I also like sister Mina's approach,she is right. at the end of the day, we Muslims have to address these issues. We can't just tell our youth "it's haram, hence we must oppose it." They will demand an answer, and we need to explain them the philosophy behind the prohibition of this disgusting act, and why Islam prohibits it.
 Moreover ,as brother Haydar rightly said, we are yet to see some credible evidence that people are 'born homosexual', and even if it is proved, it can't be used to justify the moral decay and social corruption that this mental sickness (which the western liberals, and some oriental ones too are at pains to prove to be a 'civil right') brings about.

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Salam,

Discussing about a topic without reaching a conclusion for solution or reaching an understanding is not the most constructive.

There is no such a thing as same gender marriage.

Having said that, there are people who are suffering from this or better say have these tendencies without having absolute control of it. They do not deliberately choose to be this way.

These group of people are not to be blamed , because they are are a victim of a disease passed on thru pervious generations. This disease started from a sin/ transgression against Allah's command, and could possibly pass on to the future generations.

This group of people who dont choose to intentionally be something what they are inside actually have a choice.

1. Go thru surgery

2. Dress up like the gender they are inclined to internally.

Islam is a religion of inside and outside being the same.

Like hijab, if worn consciously specially , is an expression of the internal state of submitting one's self to Allah's command.So the inside and outside correspond to each other and expresses truth.

The female body is the expression of the female nafs , and the male body of the male nafs.

Nafs is our personality. So each layer is an expression for the layer beneath.

Female nafs= female body= female clothing

Male nafs = male body = male clothing

So if you are extremely internally inclined more to be a female whilst you have male physic, Dress up like a woman not a man.

So if someone sees you he will see the definition of a woman.

Same goes for a woman , if you have tendencies to be a man internally more than a woman, dress up like a man with no makeup at all times. So if a woman sees you she will see the definition of a man.

So if you are seen in public together as a couple , one would be atleast able to say from the way you dress that , one is a man and the other is a woman.

If both similar physical gender dresses up In the same manner. You are expressing and representing a similar definition.

This would be a definiation of coward gay.

That this person is not brave enough due to public opinion , still dresses up like a man but behaves and talks like a woman.

Specially in the west, unlike most of the east, freedom of expression is so encouraged. So there is no excuse left for people going thru this.

There were instances of homosexuality during the time of Imam Ali also, and based on his judgment he passed the verdict " he is a she " and can get married to the opposite gender.

In my opinion, but also on the opinions on platforms like NARTH and others who studied the psychological side of homosexuality to understand possible underlying causes, what you say is exactly the contrary to how one should address the topic.

Ask yourself what a man would desire (not love, but just desire) from a man, for example. Manlihood, over anything else. How is that achieved by approaching a feminine attitude or through permanent changes such as surgery. Homosexuality is categorically and significantly different from transsexuality.

A homosexual man is mainly unable to love the man side of his own self, for whatever reason (sometimes, as stated above, traumatic experiences such as early abuses may cause this, though these cases are not the only cause as I have heard sometimes). Thus it is reasonable to think one would feel attracted to what completes him or what he feels is lacking. Removing the manlihood one still has is just making it worse in my opinion. It has to be done the other way around. More self esteem, more confidence, and putting some interest in knowing women better. There is a lot of beauty on them to be appreciated for those who cannot see it yet.

Naturally, it is not as easy as that, not as easy as a small "click" in your psyche. There are actual biological predisposition towards homosexuality. Though I hold my doubts in that this is a life time permanent condition if one bothers to appreciate the opposite sex.

I personally think there has been a wrong approach on the topic of change as well. People focus on leaving gay desires, when it is more interesting to focus on the inner beauty of women. The first is repressing to a gay man, meanwhile the second method is an interesting discovery that may appeal and confuse even a man who always identified as homosexual.

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Salam,

Discussing about a topic without reaching a conclusion for solution or reaching an understanding is not the most constructive.

There is no such a thing as same gender marriage.

Having said that, there are people who are suffering from this or better say have these tendencies without having absolute control of it. They do not deliberately choose to be this way.

These group of people are not to be blamed , because they are are a victim of a disease passed on thru pervious generations. This disease started from a sin/ transgression against Allah's command, and could possibly pass on to the future generations.

This group of people who dont choose to intentionally be something what they are inside actually have a choice.

1. Go thru surgery

2. Dress up like the gender they are inclined to internally.

Islam is a religion of inside and outside being the same.

Like hijab, if worn consciously specially , is an expression of the internal state of submitting one's self to Allah's command.So the inside and outside correspond to each other and expresses truth.

The female body is the expression of the female nafs , and the male body of the male nafs.

Nafs is our personality. So each layer is an expression for the layer beneath.

Female nafs= female body= female clothing

Male nafs = male body = male clothing

So if you are extremely internally inclined more to be a female whilst you have male physic, Dress up like a woman not a man.

So if someone sees you he will see the definition of a woman.

Same goes for a woman , if you have tendencies to be a man internally more than a woman, dress up like a man with no makeup at all times. So if a woman sees you she will see the definition of a man.

So if you are seen in public together as a couple , one would be atleast able to say from the way you dress that , one is a man and the other is a woman.

If both similar physical gender dresses up In the same manner. You are expressing and representing a similar definition.

This would be a definiation of coward gay.

That this person is not brave enough due to public opinion , still dresses up like a man but behaves and talks like a woman.

Specially in the west, unlike most of the east, freedom of expression is so encouraged. So there is no excuse left for people going thru this.

It is haram in Islam for a man to imitate a woman (including dressing like them, or adopting their mannerisms), or vice versa, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from. Homosexuality doesn't suddenly become ok because one of the men is wearing a dress.

There were instances of homosexuality during the time of Imam Ali also, and based on his judgment he passed the verdict " he is a she " and can get married to the opposite gender.

If you are going to make such a dubious-sounding claim, you are really going to have to provide a reliable source for it.

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Plus that would be illogic. Commonly, gays relate to gays, not heteros. What is the "opposite" gender there, even if someone who is gay is a she.

Apart from the fact imitating women is by itself haram, I don't see why you expect that is a solution. It is not good in any approach you choose to follow.

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In German, they even have this saying, "Ein bisschen bi schadet nie" meaning along the lines of "A little bi (being bi) never harms" - there's this notion that every human has some homosexual tendencies which are more prevalent in some than others. 

 

I disagree with the idea that all humans have homosexual tendencies. It is like saying that all humans have tendencies to hate God, be engrossed in narcotic addiction, find violence attractive (e.g. those people who enjoy grossly violent video games) etc. I remember once speaking to a shi'i man who said that he couldn't help but use foul language. But he became like that, that wasn't his natural state.

 

The Quran tells us that hearts can become diseased. Try telling an ill person to stop being ill. Illness requires time and corrective action to cure.

 

I think that humans can develop homosexual desires but it's not a pure and unspoilt state; it's a corrupt state. There is a difference between saying that humans have homosexual tendencies that need to be dealt with, and saying that humans have no homosexual tendencies but they can develop.

 

I watch hardly any movies and television, but I recently became aware that some (I don't know how much) modern popular media frames homosexuality in a very positive manner, and uses positive 'imagery'. I found out that even popular video games had homosexual imagery; this didn't happen in the past. If the people watch this, are they not going to develop confused desires? This is quite worrying for parents raising children who may see such imagery.

 

Recently I came across this article:

 

A surprisingly hunky male gorilla, Shabani, has female humans going ape after mugshots of the 18-year-old animal began going viral on Twitter.
 
Zoo officials tell CNN that young women have been flocking to see the pretty primate, who lives at the Higashiyama Zoo and Botanical Gardens in Nagoya.

 

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/26/asia/handsome-gorilla-shabani/

 

They are attracted to the gorilla because it has some of the characteristics of a male human. They may not have developed this attraction if they did not focus on those things. If their focus was on other characteristics (or they were not made aware of certain things), then may have held the opinion that this attraction is repulsive. Similarly, homosexuals may find in the same gender what they find in the opposite gender. 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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Ahsant, Ahsant, this is what the entire Ummah needs to be doing - holding these discussions to a proper level. Give me time to assimilate this all before contributing my self inshAllah.

 

The issue is, will we be condemned, arrested or the sort for even having a discussion on it without inciting any hatred or violence? (as the propaganda increases and those against it are further and further marginalized)

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(salam)

I do have some pointers to say on this topic, not necessarily on what Islam's position is on it or if there are any loop-holes to homosexuality or any of that nonsense, but rather on the reaction of some of the Muslims I have seen over the net. But don't have too much time at the moment unfortunately.

 

In any case, this is another interesting article:

 

 

I’m Gay, And I Oppose Same-Sex Marriage

 

Gay marriage has gone from unthinkable to reality in the blink of an eye. A recentWashington Post/ABC News poll shows that support for gay marriage is now at 61 percent—the highest it’s ever been. On Tuesday, the Supreme Court will hear arguments in the case that many court-watchers believe will deliver the final blow to those seeking to prevent the redefinition of marriage. By all measures, this fight is over. Gay marriage won.

 

As a 30-year-old gay man, one would expect me to be ecstatic. After all, I’m at that age where people tend to settle down and get married. And there is nothing in this world I want more than to be a father and raise a family. Yet I can’t seem to bring myself to celebrate the triumph of same-sex marriage. Deep down, I know that every American, gay or straight, has suffered a great loss because of this.

 

I’m not alone in thinking this. The big secret in the LGBT community is that there are a significant number of gays and lesbians who oppose same-sex marriage, and an even larger number who are ambivalent. You don’t hear us speak out because gay rights activists (most of whom are straight) have a history of viciously stamping out any trace of individualism within the gay community. I asked to publish this article under a pseudonym, not because I fear harassment from Christian conservatives, but because I know this article will make me a target of the Gaystapo.

 

Marriage Is More than a Contract

 

The wheels of my Pride Parade float came off the moment I realized that the argument in support of gay marriage is predicated on one audaciously bald-faced lie: the lie that same-sex relationships are inherently equal to heterosexual relationships. It only takes a moment of objective thought to realize that the union of two men or two women is a drastically different arrangement than the union of a man and a woman. It’s about time we realize this very basic truth and stop pretending that all relationships are created equal.

 

This inherent inequality is often overlooked by same-sex marriage advocates because they lack a fundamental understanding of what marriage actually is. It seems as though most people view marriage as little more than a love contract. Two people fall in love, agree to stick together (for a while, at least), then sign on the dotted line. If marriage is just a love contract, then surely same-sex couples should be allowed to participate in this institution. After all, two men or two women are capable of loving each other just as well as a man and a woman.

 

But this vapid understanding of marriage leaves many questions unanswered. If marriage is little more than a love contract, why do we need government to get involved? Why was government invited to regulate marriages but not other interpersonal relationships, like friendships? Why does every religion hold marriage to be a sacred and divine institution? Surely marriage must be more than just a love contract.

 

Government Is Involved in Marriage Because It Creates Babies

 

People have forgotten that the defining feature of marriage, the thing that makes marriage marriage, is the sexual complementarity of the people involved. Marriage is often correctly viewed as an institution deeply rooted in religious tradition. But people sometimes forget that marriage is also based in science. When a heterosexual couple has sex, a biological reaction can occur that results in a new human life.

Government got into the marriage business to ensure that these new lives are created in a responsible manner. This capacity for creating new life is what makes marriage special. No matter how much we try, same-sex couples will never be able to create a new life. If you find that level of inequality offensive, take it up with Mother Nature. Redefining marriage to include same-sex couples relegates this once noble institution to nothing more than a lousy love contract. This harms all of society by turning marriage, the bedrock of society, into a meaningless anachronism.

 

A Good Dad Puts Kids First

 

Same-sex relationships not only lack the ability to create children, but I believe they are also suboptimal environments for raising children. On a personal level, this was an agonizing realization for me to come to. I have always wanted to be a father. I would give just about anything for the chance to have kids. But the first rule of fatherhood is that a good dad will put the needs of his children before his own—and every child needs a mom and a dad. Period. I could never forgive myself for ripping a child away from his mother so I could selfishly live out my dreams.

 

Same-sex relationships, by design, require children to be removed from one or more of their biological parents and raised absent a father or mother. This hardly seems fair. So much of what we do as a society prioritizes the needs of adults over the needs of children. Social Security and Medicare rob the young to pay the old. The Affordable Care Act requires young and healthy people to buy insurance to subsidize the cost for the old and sick. Our schools seem more concerned with keeping the teachers unions happy than they are educating our children. Haven’t children suffered enough to make adults’ lives more convenient? For once, it would be nice to see our society put the needs of children first. Let’s raise them in homes where they can enjoy having both a mom and a dad. We owe them that.

 

At its core, the institution of marriage is all about creating and sustaining families. Over thousands of years of human civilization, the brightest minds have been unable to come up with a successful alternative. Yet in our hubris we assume we know better. Americans need to realize that same-sex relationships will never be equal to traditional marriages. You know what? I’m okay with that.

 

Paul Rosnick is a pseudonym.

 

Source: http://thefederalist.com/2015/04/28/im-gay-and-i-oppose-same-sex-marriage/

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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^ That's been received as some sort of religious 'blasphemy' by homosexual marriage supporters, it's astonishing! 

 

It is still undeniable reality though, that children need both a father's and a mother's unique qualities to grow into proper rounded human beings. 

 

As professor Philip Zimbardo says in Why Society Is Failing Young Boys: "While moms are great at giving unconditional love regardless of their child's performance, dads motivate sons to try harder, not to give up, to work for success." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-philip-zimbardo/post_3387_b_1543693.htmland http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/09/philip-zimbardo-boys-are-a-mess

 

Father Absence, Father Deficit, Father Hunger: "Children need both parents, and parents need the support of social institutions in regard to being there for their kids." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/co-parenting-after-divorce/201205/father-absence-father-deficit-father-hunger

 

Both kinds of love and motivation are critical children's formative years. 

 

http://www.drtraycehansen.com/Pages/writings_samesex.html

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I disagree with the idea that all humans have homosexual tendencies. It is like saying that all humans have tendencies to hate God, be engrossed in narcotic addiction, find violence attractive (e.g. those people who enjoy grossly violent video games) etc. I remember once speaking to a shi'i man who said that he couldn't help but use foul language. But he became like that, that wasn't his natural state.

 

The Quran tells us that hearts can become diseased. Try telling an ill person to stop being ill. Illness requires time and corrective action to cure.

 

I think that humans can develop homosexual desires but it's not a pure and unspoilt state; it's a corrupt state. There is a difference between saying that humans have homosexual tendencies that need to be dealt with, and saying that humans have no homosexual tendencies but they can develop.

 

 

True, homosexual tendencies can certainly creep into hetrosexuals in certain environments.  Case in point, prison and ultraconservative societies like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan where sodomy is rampant amongst otherwise straight men.  

 

But when it comes to individuals who are truly gay, I believe there is also a neurological aspect to homosexuality.  Gay men and women aren't just attracted to the same sex, but they behave differently than their hetro counterparts.  Not to perpetuate stereotypes here, but it's quite obvious how effeminate gay men act and conversely lesbians often have a masculine persona.  That's part and parcel of homosexuality...their brains seem to be wired for the other gender.  In fact, brain scans have shown that the mind of homosexual men is more similar to hetrosexual women than hetrosexual men.  The same-sex attraction then is a natural consequence.

Edited by Renaissance_Man

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 But when it comes to individuals who are truly gay, I believe there is also a neurological aspect to homosexuality.  Gay men and women aren't just attracted to the same sex, but they behave differently than their hetro counterparts.  Not to perpetuate stereotypes here, but it's quite obvious how effeminate gay men act and conversely lesbians often have a masculine persona.  That's part and parcel of homosexuality...their brains seem to be wired for the other gender.  In fact, brain scans have shown that the mind of homosexual men is more similar to hetrosexual women than hetrosexual men.  The same-sex attraction then is a natural consequence.

 

Would those people technically be homosexual? 

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You are right there are certain biological factors, but I believe you are confusing two points.

One of them is the social construct of effeminacy. Effeminacy is not inborn in gay men, it is very consciously chosen in many cases (unless you are naturally feminint, which has nothing to do with sexual orientation, you would be surprised at the natural effeminacy in some heterosexual men, or the masculinity of some gay men). My explanation to this common effeminacy found in many gays is that effeminacy is a way to identify and describe themselves, adscribing their identities to the gay stereotype. I'm not feminint, but there was a time I acted so on purpose due to these same reasons I said above. I have also seen others doing the same for the same reasons. In other posts I explained why a gay person feels the need to develop and adscribe to a gay identity, which is mostly a social construction.

I do believe our brains are kind of a mix when it comes to thinking. We are men and think like men, but we share a lot with women thinking, for some reason or another (which I have found it to be an advantage in my life). Now, I highly doubt if that is natural or not, and I honestly doubt it is any relevant.

In the second hand, I don't think the female thinking is a consequence of homosexual desires. It is precisely the fact we probably lack some of the male thinking actually. There are certain behaviours most homosexuals find VERY hard to share with most men, and can't relate to them. To put an example I have been able to appreciate, the apparent competitivity and constant comparations men tend to have deeply inside with other men, especially when it comes to certain aspects.

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Great topic brother and good research ..

 

Homosexuality is the same as many other major sins, such as adultry and drinking alcohol and using drugs. 

In the sense that there is a biological component, a social component, an environmental component

and an element of choice. But the determining factor is choice and not any of the factors.

 

For example, a man who has high testosterone levels naturally, has an innate attraction to women, (biological)

lives in an environment where adultery is common and there are no legal punishments for it (such as in the US and Europe)(social) has the means and ability to do it and there are women who are willing to do it with him (environmental) is more likely to commit adultery than someone where one or all of those factors are not present. 

 

At the same time, we as muslims believe that human beings have free will and that this free will is stronger than all those factors. I think even many gays would agree with that statement and the difference between us is that we believe that sexual contact between two men or two women is immoral, and morality is determined by God(s.w.a). They don't believe that it is immoral because they believe morality is determined by how they feel about an issue or what the secular government says or what the majority say, rather than God(s.w.a). 

Edited by Abu Hadi

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(salam)

 

 

Yes, there are a variety of factors. When one is sexually active in his infancy, it effects the development of his sexual identity. Some recover fully from it, while others repress the memory, and others change fully. Remember that plenty of homophobes turn out to be closet homosexuals themselves, because the traumatic experience pushes them into role confusion. Still, the high percentage of sexual abuse in the history of most homosexuals is alarming.

 

This may be why the Prophet instructed us to separate children into different beds - not just the boys from the girls, but boys from the boys too. We don't want adolescent boys "experimenting" anything on their younger naive siblings.

 

 

As you mentioned, the percentage of sexual abuse of most homosexuals from that study (you linked to) was derived from those cases that had been reported/admitted to - it's hard to talk about abuse, to confide about it to anyone. It's hard enough for many girls/women, one can only guess how hard it must be for boys/men to come forward with this (and even seek help) let alone children, especially when they were abused by a family member. I remember about a case in India I once heard about where a boy had been sexually abused by his uncle (husband of his mother's sister) for a while and when he found the courage to tell his mom about it, he's been pressed to keep his mouth shut and not tell anyone else about this- most likely to save her sister's marriage - I'll never understand such people. But since these cases exist (and many others), it's no wonder that victims have a hard time admitting to such incidents when the fear of no support lingers with them. Societies need to work on this. Then, there are those who repressed the memories (as you also mentioned) - so, the actual percentage might be even higher which, indeed, is quite alarming.

 

A research and analysis from a psychological point of view (today) would be interesting. Although, I think that any such researches might not be welcomed in the future - people seem to react very sensitive to this. If you dare mention that homosexuality is like a mental illness (to a non-gay) or that it's a sin, they'll be at your throat - as if mental illness automatically equals crazy and is an insult to the individual as such. Maybe it's just me but I don't view it like this. Would they react the same if you'd say a blind person is blind? It's one aspect of them as a human being that needs to be cared for.

 

On another note, why not do a research on animals, to begin with, if they want to look into the biology involved? Scientists do that anyway and have done it for a long time (using animals). I mean, homosexuality is also found within animals, although very rarely, and unlike with humans, emotions are not the driving force for animals - I remember about a Swan pair my old Latin teacher told us about, once, which never got any offspring and when people decided to see why that is, they noticed that both were males. A scientific research into such cases would be interesting.

 

 


I disagree with the idea that all humans have homosexual tendencies. It is like saying that all humans have tendencies to hate God, be engrossed in narcotic addiction, find violence attractive (e.g. those people who enjoy grossly violent video games) etc. I remember once speaking to a shi'i man who said that he couldn't help but use foul language. But he became like that, that wasn't his natural state.

 

The Quran tells us that hearts can become diseased. Try telling an ill person to stop being ill. Illness requires time and corrective action to cure.

 

I think that humans can develop homosexual desires but it's not a pure and unspoilt state; it's a corrupt state. There is a difference between saying that humans have homosexual tendencies that need to be dealt with, and saying that humans have no homosexual tendencies but they can develop.

 

I watch hardly any movies and television, but I recently became aware that some (I don't know how much) modern popular media frames homosexuality in a very positive manner, and uses positive 'imagery'. I found out that even popular video games had homosexual imagery; this didn't happen in the past. If the people watch this, are they not going to develop confused desires? This is quite worrying for parents raising children who may see such imagery.

 

@bold: As do I - in case that it wasn't obvious in my post. I was just citing some things I came across. To me, it just sounds like justifications and efforts to normalize homosexuality. Obviously, if kids grow up in such an environment, believing it's alright to desire the same gender because that's what they see and learn, they might develope such tendencies themselves or, at least, curiousity in this matter.

 

As for media: It's true. TV shows, books- they feature homosexual relationships a lot, nowadays. I mean, it's not as if this is a completely "recent" notion. Greek myths have hints of homosexual relationships (Ganymed and Zeus, for example) as do other works (like works from Shakespeare to some degree) - but they are subtle and probably, many readers wouldn't even notice, and neither do these texts try to glorify these relations in any way. But nowadays, that's not the case. Books (popular ones) feature such relationships through side characters a lot (mostly those aimed at younger readership, though not only; PJO comes to mind or A song of Ice and Fire), TV shows do as well (like, in BBC Sherlock, there are clear nuances for it although, the protagonists are not gay, their relationship as friends is portrayed as such that the viewers "ship" them- but there are others with better examples, I guess). People still seem hesitant to push these characters into the roles of leads but still, they are being very obvious. And such things are powerful in their own rights, they influence us subconsciously all the time. Once attached to a gay character, whether side or lead, sympathies are bound to appear (which maybe isn't bad itself if it's directed at the person as such but when you start to find excuses for homosexuality to be allowed... yeah, not good). If used properly, though, I believe these things are great mediums.

 

In the end, it all comes down to 'love'. That seems to be the main aspect of people's life, find "true" love and live happily ever after - or just fullfil their desires as much as possible. Although, I agree that there are things out of our control (and yes, I think emotions like love or hatred could come into this category), I also believe that there are many things we can control and choose ourselves if we wish to. Desire is something I'd say we can control. One of the main points of gay activists seems to be the whole "It's not fair that they can't be happy with the one they love" - well, it's not fair that poor people all over the world can't feed their families while we live in luxury compared to it. It's not fair that some people grow up in a war-ridden environment whereas others don't even know what war truly is. It's not fair that some people are being killed for their beliefs whereas others with the same beliefs in another corner of the world live without any fear. A lot of things seem not fair to us- what are we doing against them? Everyone has their hardships and struggles, yes, some more and others less - we certainly aren't always to be blamed for those, but it's our decision how we choose to tackle them.

 

Besides, love has many facets, anyway. Honestly, I'm rather sick of how much people are fixated on romantic love; you find it everywhere- books, tv, movies. As if that's all that matters in life. You'll even find teenagers (?) intentionally misinterpreting a pure friendship between two individuals (of the same gender) in a book, a show or even in real life as romantic involvement just because it's "hot" - I've seen it many a times. I've seen heterosexuals and even homosexuals being annoyed by this "hype". Our lives consist of a lot more than that, there are other goals in our lives.

 

On another note, I'm curious: How would any of you react if someone really close to you, a loved one (sibling, child, nephew/niece) came out to you? Maybe that's too direct a question (and I guess it's difficult to assess such a situation when it doesn't and will never occur) so, I apologize if I've offended anyone with it.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Noor al-Batul

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Great topic brother and good research ..

Homosexuality is the same as many other major sins, such as adultry and drinking alcohol and using drugs.

In the sense that there is a biological component, a social component, an environmental component

and an element of choice. But the determining factor is choice and not any of the factors.

For example, a man who has high testosterone levels naturally, has an innate attraction to women, (biological)

lives in an environment where adultery is common and there are no legal punishments for it (such as in the US and Europe)(social) has the means and ability to do it and there are women who are willing to do it with him (environmental) is more likely to commit adultery than someone where one or all of those factors are not present.

At the same time, we as muslims believe that human beings have free will and that this free will is stronger than all those factors. I think even many gays would agree with that statement and the difference between us is that we believe that sexual contact between two men or two women is immoral, and morality is determined by God(s.w.a). They don't believe that it is immoral because they believe morality is determined by how they feel about an issue or what the secular government says or what the majority say, rather than God(s.w.a).

Many gays do share the same perspective about gay activity. But the condemnation of the act isn't as active within the gay religious community because it is the first that acknowledges it is not easy.

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Would those people technically be homosexual? 

 

I haven't done any surveys but I would bet that would describe a large segment of the homosexual population.

 

 

(salam)

 

On another note, I'm curious: How would any of you react if someone really close to you, a loved one (sibling, child, nephew/niece) came out to you? Maybe that's too direct a question (and I guess it's difficult to assess such a situation when it doesn't and will never occur) so, I apologize if I've offended anyone with it.

 

(wasalam)

 

I'm glad you posed this question.  People love to rail against gays but I wonder how they would react to their own family members coming out.  It can happen to anyone and I know of at a handful of Muslim families that are faced with this painful reality.  Imagine the devastation from hearing your child, whom you've raised and loved for years, announce one day that he or she is gay.  Being Muslims it must be especially hard to on one hand, accept your child and on the other forbidding him to partake in the lifestyle in a society that celebrates homosexuality.  I know some parents have tried to "pray the gay away" which only made matters worse and the kids ended up drifting to the homosexual lifestyle anyway.

 

As Muslims, I think that rather then condemn them we need to recognize that gays exist within our community, accept them and aid them spiritually.  

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On another note, I'm curious: How would any of you react if someone really close to you, a loved one (sibling, child, nephew/niece) came out to you? Maybe that's too direct a question (and I guess it's difficult to assess such a situation when it doesn't and will never occur) so, I apologize if I've offended anyone with it.

 

I wouldn't hate him unless he sins. If he sins and doesn't repent, and lives his life as a homo, I would disassociate from him forever, he doesn't know me, nor do I know him. 

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A couple of interesting articles, by a former lesbian feminist academic, who converted to Christianity, and is now married with children:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html?paging=off

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/you-are-whatand-howyou-read/

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On another note, I'm curious: How would any of you react if someone really close to you, a loved one (sibling, child, nephew/niece) came out to you? Maybe that's too direct a question (and I guess it's difficult to assess such a situation when it doesn't and will never occur) so, I apologize if I've offended anyone with it.

I think this is a very important question, as many religious people have changed their views on this topic as soon as one of their children or siblings has come out as gay. It is therefore important to have thought through the issues sufficiently, so that one's whole world view doesn't get turned upside down by something like this. I'll give some quick thoughts here, but I think this is a subject that deserves a lot of attention and reflection.

As always, prevention is better than cure. The early upbringing of a child likely plays on important role in it's adult sexuality. It is obviously vital to keep children safe from abuse, which often play a key role in the history of people with abnormal sexualities (whether homosexual, transgender, adulterous, etc). It is also important to make sure they grow up with a correct Islamic worldview. Too many Muslims are being raised in a secular fashion, with a bit of religion tacked on. This isn't really good enough. People need to be raised to view everything through the lens of Islam. If someone was not raised in that way (as most of us aren't), then it is something they need to work hard on developing. This would obviously be especially true if they have homosexual desires. They need to know and believe that homosexuality is a grave sin, and not to be indulged in not matter how tempting. This is no different from a Muslims being tempted by fornication or adultery, but resisting because he knows that God is aware of what he is doing, and that it is a grave sin.

More generally, Muslims need to have a more open mind when dealing with these issues. There is no doubt of course that this is a terrible sin, but many Muslims are far more tolerant of other sins which are just as bad. Often the way they react to sins has more to do with how the 'community' will see things, than the way God will see it. In reality, it should be treated no differently from any other sin, and should be dealt with in a rational manner. Shouting and screaming, and trying to guilt trip someone into changing won't work. What is needed is to make them understand that what they are doing is sinful, and that they need to repent, and abstain from committing such a major sin again. If they are capable of living with a woman, and having children, as most homosexuals probably are, then they should do so. If they don't feel able to, then they need to be helped in working through their issues, while remaining celibate. This is the most difficult aspect, since there is no serious Muslim research or scholarship on this matter, which obviously requires some expertise. In an ideal world, it should draw on the experience of Muslims who experience same-sex desire (but who know it is a sin, so don't engage in homosexual activity), but the problem is that almost no Muslim would be willing to admit to having these desires. This would be especially difficult for a Muslim with these desires (or who formerly had these desires) who was married with children. The problem though is that there is little hope in gaining any serious insights that would be of any help to Muslims in this position without drawing on the experience of others.

Anyway, I went off on a bit of a tangent there, so to summarise what I would do:

- Strive to bring my children up in such a way that this hopefully wouldn't be an issue.

- Try to bring them up in such a way that if this situation occurred, then they would have the right foundations to begin to deal with it.

- Treat them with compassion and understanding, while never compromising on the truth.

- Help them develop strategies to deal with the problem.

In the end though, we must remember that only Allah can guide, and even the Imams has some bad children. There is only so much you can do as a parent, and if a child has decided to give themselves over to sin, then there is nothing you can do about it. Someone who insists in living a lifestyle in which they are openly committing major sins is a major criminal, and one that affirms these sins as good is without doubt a kafir. Obviously someone who is in open rebelling against Allah needs to be treated differently than someone who accepts the truth, but commits sins, even if they are sometimes major.

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Children who are victims of brainwashing used for propaganda purposes:

The Independent reports it as: "More kids asked their opinion on gay marriage, continue to nail it"

It turns out that video wasn't a one-off, and kids really are sufficiently wise and grown-up to understand the concept that two people who love each other should be able to get married.

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/more-kids-asked-their-opinion-on-gay-marriage-continue-to-nail-it--W1gb8KSXDzx

The video is worth watching to see just how indoctrinated kids can be if you keep repeating the same soundbites over and over again. The fact that an adult would think there is any wisdom on display here is just sad.

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I think such topics should b avoided.
It's simply Haram...Now take it or leave it....
What are we getting in return while discussing on such specified topics...??  Nothing...!!!
Yes if there is a purpose for someone's guidance then debate on it but Excess of everything is bad.

Almighty blessed us with wisdom. Sexually relations are merely to reproduce so that the cycle of humanity won't get cut off
But the sex b/w male and male or vice versa female to female is just to enjoy each other which is simply against the law of Humanity.
Every thing has its purpose and if the purpose is not being achieved then the meaning of that specified act remains none

Regards

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Salam, 

 

While this is not my favorite issue to discuss, we should discuss it because people are discussing it and some may be confused as to what is the position of Islam on this, and if they know the position, what is the justification for it. 

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Your post definitely reached me Haydar, because what you say is precisely what many have lived. And I think people should discuss and reflect upon this more, because it can happen to any kid and people may not be ready to react properly.

What I have been able to appreciate in parents are extremes. Extremes in acceptance and extremes in pressure to change. No mid term, no listening, no empathy nor compassion. And only God knows how much a little of that is needed.

When many people come out, to be honest, there is no discussion, just acceptance and expectations on that they would find a partner and eventually marry him. Though I appreciate A LOT (not going to be ungrateful because I know what happens in other families) what happens in those families, many people facing SSA are in a neutral (and confused) state regarding the sexual behaviour usually linked to their condition. Precisely the reason why many still benefit from debating about the topic and keep reading.

Many homosexuals would be up to try a real change if there was enough support within their families, instead of facing one extreme (exclusive total acceptance) or the other (intolerance and homophobia). A tolerant but also compassive debate may be the way to work on change. Because in the end, people are saved by love, even though sometimes it is hard to do sacrifices; I won't lie and say it is easy...

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