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saberrider

Sexual Diversity In Islam

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Scott Kugle's ideas and his book on Homosexuality on Islam cpuld be a good basia to justify the need to put an end to any type of homophobia. But as I said in other threads, between acceptance of homosexuality and disapproval of homophobia there is a big gap. His opinions put the islamic view on the extreme of acceptance in that gap.

I do believe Islam acknowledges the fact there is sexual diversity due to the verse on surat al noor (verse 31), which recognizes the existence of men lacking desire for women. These are not necessarily gays, but an asexual man is already one reason to believe there is sexual diversity.

To fully understand the standpoint on the topic held by MfPV one should read Kugle's work first. Otherwise it would be an unfair judgement imo because it is a very ambiguous topic in some aspects.

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It is MIND BLOWING to see how people have the ability to distort, twist and force something so clear to fit their own preferences and ideas just so they don't feel bad, because feeling like a sinner is obviously a horrible feeling, therefore they must adapt something for them to sin, and make themselves believe it is not a sin.

 

CRAZY. 

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From the posted link above...

-"Sex was allowed as part of a number of relationships."

-"Muhammad even trusted the mukhanath (a man with female attitude) enough to let him enter the private women’s space of the Prophet’s household...."Estaghfarallah.

Clear disinformation in a 'scientific' coat.

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim  In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful  As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

 

 

America has lost it!  I don't know how many people are aware of the Satanic gay agenda, to demoralize the children, mainly, and to make 'men' and 'women' homosexual "or else." Trouble is brewing, and judging from what is presently allowed to be in these times, you should prepare, for the worse is yet to come.  

 

 


Satanic Gay Agenda Persecuting Christians!! 2015 USA

 

 

 

Wassalaam.   Faithfully999


 

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There is nothing wrong with the bortherhood or sisterhood "love", but having sexual desires even withouth the act is itself an transgression in Islam. Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Indeed, you are a transgressing people Q27:55.

 

For God Sake, Muslims needs to wake up and stop sharing and support these people who try to justify lgbt in Islam.

 

Then when their sight was turned towards the companions of the fire, they said, “Our Lord, do not ordain us to be with the transgressing people. Qur’an 7:47

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Haydar, but don't you think the existence of this type of group (mpv) somewhat keep potential apostates still linked to Islam? I know the refusal of basic principles technically make you an apostate, but the group keeps other islamic basic duties. I have met many people, not all of them gay, who found in such interpretations a way to reconcile their ideas or beliefs with their religion, instead of leaving it all.

You are true though that many don't even believe what they defend. I also feel it is a bit sectarian and a closer inclusive dialogue should be held. I believe the whole Scott Kugle's approach has been sadly biased. As I said in my first post, his ideas would have got wider acceptance if he ONLY addressed homophobia, instead of a legitimization of homosexuality. Mainly because many homosexual muslims do their best to keep away from sin. I believe those require some representation and consideration too. Sadly they get no real support in any group.

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The part about these kinds of discussions -and not necessarily about homosexuality- that I find offensive and tricky, are when the promoters of some agenda use "phobia" as an "unacceptable stereotype", even "illness" that is somehow socially deficient.

 

An example about the "tricky": when then people with evil intent started "privacy verses security" debates, when anyone thinking knows your privacy is your security.

 

Another: You are against extraterrestrials, therefore you are "alien-phobic".

 

Or you have an "unreasoning fear of germs", therefore you a germophobe  -like Howard Hughes

 

Decency and morality are not phobias.

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You are very right and pointing out at a very condemnable fact on this topic by saying that condemnation of homophobia is primarily done with a secular approach. Obviously this alienates them.

I like debate a lot, and I believe decisions in life should be taken consciously. Thus any movement of desprestigement, especially when it comes to beliefs, is shameful.

Men and women facing SSA are usually the first victims of propaganda. And that is pretty much unfair. I support their right of choice but also support their right of knowledge of the religion they were educated in. If you are going to indulge in any activity with the same sex, you have to be completely sure this is what you want for yourself, and consider what you have got to gain and what you have got to lose.

I can personally state that I know several cases that even though the idea of a test in which you live a whole life of secrecy without sex is terribly dreadful, it is still better than the personal hate they grow towards themselves because they indulged in it without being sure about doing it. That is why many need acceptance from others (if not all), because it is very hard to find acceptance within one self if you have been educated in a specific way.

Hasanhh, I don't use the word homophobia for simple stuff as a trend. When I use it, I mean it for a reason and could use any other adjective which would be worse for the types of crimes committed. The word homophobia summarizes it by giving out the reason: "unreasonable or bigoted hate towards gays"

I don't use this adjective for religious beliefs.

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Search up "gay marriage" on Google and look at the rainbows. Indeed Shaytan has won this battle.

 

These practices have no place in this Holy Religion, they are indeed from Shaytan.

Edited by al-Ibrahimi

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim  In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful  As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

 

 

Trying to understand being gay, and being Muslim; are they saying that they no longer commit homosexual acts? That to my mind would help them to be forgiven for such sins.

 

 How I Accepted Myself as a Gay Muslim

 

Wassalaam.  Faithfully999

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Homosexuality can be studied by observing prevalence or incidence of it. If one is interested in studying sexual orientation (which is the essential definition of the condition of homosexuality), one should look at prevalence. In this debate so far we have had addressed prevalence, not incidence. Thus, being gay is just a condition, a predisposition and an orientation of sexual nature. It has nothing to do with the acts you commit. You can happen to be gay and not necessarily tried it.

But yes, reconciling sexual orientation and religion, whether you act upon your desires or not, is not easy for obvious reasons.

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Homosexuality can be studied by observing prevalence or incidence of it. If one is interested in studying sexual orientation (which is the essential definition of the condition of homosexuality), one should look at prevalence. In this debate so far we have had addressed prevalence, not incidence. Thus, being gay is just a condition, a predisposition and an orientation of sexual nature. It has nothing to do with the acts you commit. You can happen to be gay and not necessarily tried it.

What if sexual orientation is a social construct? This could be a reason why until modern times nobody identified themselves in terms of their sexual preferences.

But yes, reconciling sexual orientation and religion, whether you act upon your desires or not, is not easy for obvious reasons.

What are those obvious reasons?

Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim  In The Name Of Allaah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful  As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.

 

 

Trying to understand being gay, and being Muslim; are they saying that they no longer commit homosexual acts? That to my mind would help them to be forgiven for such sins.

 

 How I Accepted Myself as a Gay Muslim

 

Wassalaam.  Faithfully999

No, what these deviants are saying is that it's ok to be a practicing homosexual and a Muslim.

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Sexual orientation as the concepts of homosexual - heterosexual are undoubtedly social constructs. Prevalence, though, is related to the condition of the person and not his or her acts. The fact a person only develops sexual desires towards the same sex is prevalence of the condition we know as homosexuality. This is different that incidentally have homosexual desires or activities out of whatever reason.

One must know, though, that in many studies, these focus on incidence over prevalence, and sometimes that may give results or data that is somewhat biased to specific conclusions. For example, if we study incidence, we would be surprised at how a big percentage of people in a country like the US have eventually have an homosexual experience. But those who identify as homosexuals (in the prevalent sense most likely) are barely the 2% of population.

The obvious reasons I meant are the most common ones on gay muslims: social and family view on the topic. People barely talk about compassion, and even though in a serious situation they would show it, the fact it is not said openly in front of those gay muslims is a problem. Thus, they blame their condition over their potential acts. In any case, being gay usually also comes with a huge set of lack of self esteem, confidence and self love. It is hard to see yourself as a muslim and follow this religion if you hold such a miserable view for your own self. Again, the problem is not with the religion by itself which doesn't condemn the condition but apparently only the act. It is rather about factual and psychological circumstances.

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Sexual orientation as the concepts of homosexual - heterosexual are undoubtedly social constructs. Prevalence, though, is related to the condition of the person and not his or her acts. The fact a person only develops sexual desires towards the same sex is prevalence of the condition we know as homosexuality. This is different that incidentally have homosexual desires or activities out of whatever reason.

One must know, though, that in many studies, these focus on incidence over prevalence, and sometimes that may give results or data that is somewhat biased to specific conclusions. For example, if we study incidence, we would be surprised at how a big percentage of people in a country like the US have eventually have an homosexual experience. But those who identify as homosexuals (in the prevalent sense most likely) are barely the 2% of population.

The obvious reasons I meant are the most common ones on gay muslims: social and family view on the topic. People barely talk about compassion, and even though in a serious situation they would show it, the fact it is not said openly in front of those gay muslims is a problem. Thus, they blame their condition over their potential acts. In any case, being gay usually also comes with a huge set of lack of self esteem, confidence and self love. It is hard to see yourself as a muslim and follow this religion if you hold such a miserable view for your own self. Again, the problem is not with the religion by itself which doesn't condemn the condition but apparently only the act. It is rather about factual and psychological circumstances.

It would seem to be then that one of the major issues we need to address as a community is how we deal with people with SSA, to help prevent these feelings of self-loathing, which are only going to increase the likelihood that the person struggling with these issues will move away from Islam, and end up falling into sin.

On a practical level, there shouldn't be much difference between someone with SSA and who isn't allowed to engage in homosexual behaviour, and someone who doesn't have these feelings, but is unmarried, and hence not allowed to engage in any kind of sexual behaviour. In both cases, you have people with certain sexual desires that they cannot act upon. We could also add into the mix people with attractions towards illegal young girls, who are not allowed to act on these feelings either. Obviously, the average unmarried person still has the hope of getting married, so his situation is much better in that respect, but there are nevertheless people who go a long time without getting married, for various reasons. Some are never able to marry. Would anyone then suggest that it would be ok for such people to be able to commit zina with any woman who would be willing to have sex with them? Or would anyone say that in these cases masturbation becomes halal? No, of course not. It could be that if someone in those circumstances did give in to temptation, and sincerely repented for it, that Allah would judge him more mercifully, and indeed the hadd punishments for sexual offences tend to be less if a person is unmarried (at least upon the first offence), but that is a world away from proudly affirming an identity that is by its nature sinful. It would be like having a 'proudly adulterous' identity. Clearly that is not compatible with Islam.

What we need are scholars, academics, and researchers with an Islamic worldview to be looking into these issues, and seeing what treatments could be offered to people who are indeed struggling with sexual preferences that would be sinful if acted upon. The problem we have at the moment is the Muslim community is by and large stuck in the dark ages, both in terms of scholarly output, and in terms of it's understanding of such complex issues. This leaves to area open with people with atheistic and anti-religious worldviews to push their destructive agendas. The ones who end up suffering from this are the sincere people with homosexual desires who have almost nowhere to turn that doesn't lead to some form of destruction. As always though, the only possible solution is by starting with turning to Allah, and keeping Him in our minds at all times. As the Qur'an says, He created us to worship Him, not to live out our worldly desires, which is rather something to be condemned.

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As I answered on the recently created thread, the sexual identity is key factor here.

As you correctly stated, the life of celibacy is a common aspect of the lives of very different men and women: who are either suffering from an illness, or didnt manage to get married for whatever reason, etc.

The biggest concern I presented in my other post is the sexual identity. A social construct and a choice. This sexual and social identity, is for the gay person, a pillar of his own self esteem, source of self acceptancd and self knowledge. A gay person faces desires who are not common and contrary to what he sees amd experiences, and that naturally creates confusion about our own self and certain level of loneliness. Society created the gay stereotype and community for those people not to feel alone, to have a place, and to identify themselves with that stereotype (that would explain the self imposed effeminacy or masculinity on many men and women respectively, which is not necessarily natural at all). This way, they get rid of the original confusion and loneliness they faced.

Many of these gay people do have fluid sexualities deeply inside and may be able to become straight though they may not know. But what about the identity? This has become the pillar of their character, their acceptance, their self knowledge.

And worst thing is that some are aware of this fact yet can't even think of breaking that pillar, so yes, it is a conscious choice when it comes to sexual and social identity. The emptiness a homosexual person, who rejects the gay and social identity he adopted for years, would face is definitely terrifying, and there is absolute ignorance on what to do after that.

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