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liightseekeer

Do Shia Give Divine Attributes To The Imams?

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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

The majority of us do not give them attributes we shouldn't. Essentially shia's and our greatest ulema's past and present are of the consensus that the Imams a.s were human, ate, used the toilet, had sexual relationtions(if married/applicable), slept, were ill, and so on. Anyone that denies this has gone into ghuluw. I thank Allah swt for creating them as humans, because if he sent angels, imagine the ghuluw that would ensue? Alhamdullilah our imams a.s were mortals, had needs, felt sick. It is the thorn on the foot of every extreme devotee who exagerrates in their love.

 

We also affirm that Allah swt is the one that controls the stars, the atoms, it is in his power and control and divine will everything happens. Now some people believe it is through the imams a.s he does this. I personally withold for now from such a belief, but i don't see it as shirk because in essence, Allah swt gives life and takes death through an angel, but it is when he commands, through his power, through him allowing.

 

The imams a.s unfortunately, especially Imam Ali a.s through time have been the target of extreme devotion and ghuluw, and that toxic love has threatened to rot the core of our madhab from the inside out. It is only praise and thanks to Allah swt our imams a.s have warned us of those who perfom ghuluw. For example, there was those ghulaat who the imams a.s cursed who performed tafweed and said the Allah swt created the universe and left the imams a.s in charge of running it, delegating affairs. This is shirk, and you risk youur akhirah believing in this heresy.

 

There are some who say the Imams a.s have more knowledge than they do. We shia's believe whatever knowledge they have is given to Allah swt  , and while they are knowledgable and the most of all his creatures, Allah swt's knowledge is never encompassed and the Imams a.s are ignorant of many things Allah swt has not chosen to tell them of(through the Holy Prophet pbuh, i.e day of judgement). For instance, even during the time of the Prophet pbuh he was ignorant until revelation came, and he was given the knowledge by Allah swt.

 

We have a hadith in Rijal Kashi:

 

(Credit to brother Islamic Salvation)

 

حمدويه، قال حدثنا يعقوب، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال : قلت لأبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) إنهم يقولون قال و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله
 

532. Hamdawayh who said: narrated to us Ya’qub from Ibn Abi Umayr from Shuayb from Abi Basir who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام – they do say, he said: and what do they say? I said: they say that you know the number of the drops in the rain, and the number of the stars, and the number of leaves in all the trees, and the weight of what is in the ocean, and the number of sand particles, so he عليه السلام raised his hand to the sky and said: praise be to Allah, praise be to Allah, no by Allah, no one knows this except for Allah.

 

 

Unfortunately, there are groups who go into extremism today saying things like the following:

 

1. For Imam Hussain a.s everything becomes permissible (utter lies)

2. When your wife is giving birth, you should scream Ya Ali (and therefore not Ya Allah) Every shia muslim must oppose statements like this.

3. Shia's getting tatoes of Imam Ali a.s

4. Shias never making dua to Allah swt.

5. Shia's self-mutilating themselves

6. Shia's abusing the concept of intercession, and i am not even regarding Ya Ali Madad as an abuse FYI.

7. The imams a.s are the beautiful names of Allah swt we must invoke.

8. Giving absolutely little importance to the seerah of Muhammed s.a.w. , little importance to the Quran, and being preoccupied in cursing and throwing lies even many ulema do not say(i.e X commited adultery), self-mutilation, barely making dua to Allah swt, and you'll find a number of people who can qualify for this by the way, which is no wonder sunni's look at us as a cult.

 

 

 

 

No doubt there will be some who will feel threatened by what i posted, accuse me of going against the mainstream even though nothing in my post is really going against the mainstream, or be quite cynical towards me. But Allahu'alam, truth is clear from falsehood.

 

May Allah swt cleanse our madhab from the extreme devotee's and guide them back , and make their efforts to turn away many from our madhab futile.

Edited by Tawheed313

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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

Not in every situation, for example, Allah is al-Khaaliq, from the Qur'an: 

 

ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْعَلَقَةَ مُضْغَةً فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا ثُمَّ أَنشَأْنَاهُ خَلْقًا آخَرَ‌ ۚ فَتَبَارَ‌كَ اللَّـهُ أَحْسَنُ الْخَالِقِينَ

 

Then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump of flesh, then We made (in) the lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators. (23:14)

 

In another verse, Allah عز و جل says:

 

وَرَ‌سُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَ‌ائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّ‌بِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ‌ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرً‌ا بِإِذْنِ اللَّـهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِ‌ئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَ‌صَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّـهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُ‌ونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

 

to be a Messenger to the Children of Israel saying, "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I will create for you out of clay as the likeness of a bird; then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird, by the leave of God. I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the leave of God. I will inform you too of what things you eat, and what you treasure up in your houses. Surely in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (3:49)

 

The Tafsir of this that has reached us from the Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام is:

 

في التوحيد عن الرضا عليه السلام إنه سئل وغير الخالق الجليل خالق قال إن الله تبارك وتعالى قال تبارك الله أحسن الخالقين وقد أخبر أن في عباده خالقين وغير خالقين منهم عيسى بن مريم خلق من الطين كهيئة الطير بإذن الله والسامري خلق لهم عجلا جسدا له خوار

 

In al-Tawhid, from al-Ridha عليه السلام that he was asked, and other than the Sublime Creator created? He (al-Ridha) said that Allah تبارك وتعالى said: Blessed be Allah, the best of the creators and he had informed us that from his servants are creators and non-creators. From them, 'Isa bin Maryam created from clay, the likeness of a bird, by the will of Allah, and al-Samiri created for them a calf who's body bellowed.

 

al-Kashani, Tafsir al-Safi (3:49)

 

 

So whilst a lot of times, giving Imams divine attributes, with the sole excuse that "Allah can do it if he wants" with no clear proof, is  (more often than not) clear deviance, it isn't in every situation.

 

(salam)

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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Miracles (Isa a.s.), Hidden Knowledge (Khidr a.s.).

Why are there double measures and does shirk labelling appears on the scene when exactly the same things are atributted to our Imams a.s.?

Edited by Iskandarovich

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It's important to note, Allah swt can give Imams or Prophets abilities, and only by his power can they perform certain things. But there's a line we draw, and we only attribute what is valid in the Quran and the authentic hadith.

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If you want to be technical about it, the Imams are the reflection of the activity of Allah and thus reflect the attributes of Allah. We only know God's mercy what we do through what of it is reflected in the character and activity of his most righteous servants, that is the prophets, the angels, the saints and imams who are the greatest reflections of His Mercy.

 

The word "divine" is a pesky word for me, because I do believe the Imams can be called "divine" without being gods in any way because the term "divine" in English doesn't necessarily translate to "godhood" by may be synonymous with words like "holy." If by the divine attributes you mean they possess great power given to them by Allah which they only use so long as they have God's permission to use it and only in such a way that is most pleasing to God, then certainly have divine attributes. But if by divine attributes you mean they possess attributes independent of Allah which Allah cannot remove from them or that Allah has made them gods by delegating responsibilities and powers to them that he has retired from, this is a form of polytheism since the Imams at that point become gods and not just simply proxies for the one God to manifest his own activity.

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Another problem is that no one, dead or alive, not even the prophets and imams possess(ed) comprehensive knowledge of Allah. It is also a definition of godhood that He remains unfathomable even to the reach of anyone's imagination. He has 99 attributes known to men. 1000 known to angels. And 1000 known to muqarribeen. My point is that since He has no toes nor do we know where they are, how can anyone very easily step upon them? Its not my intention to encourage the ghulat, but I don't wish to encourage takseer either.

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It is impossible to give the Imams divine attributes, because in traditional Shi`i theology, the attributes of Allah are inseparable from Him. He is one and indivisible, and His names are simply indicators to Him. They are descriptions of His essence, and His essence is distinct from the creation. To say that Allah's essence is separate from His attributes is a form of shirk. Likewise, to say that Allah's essence is a part of the Imam is impossible, because the essence is uncreated and the Imam is created.

The Imams did all that they can to protect the secret of Allah. That is to say, they emphasized that He is one, unseen, without physicality, and unimaginable. That being said, Allah is known through His signs in the creation, which act as His representation and His "face" in the world. This is not to be understood anthropomorphically - these signs are only indicators to Him, and may reflect certain qualities of His. The topmost sign is the Prophet and his Ahl al-Bayt, through whose example we can understand Allah's attributes. They are repositories of His light, which is His vehicle of guidance so that He may be better known and understood. They are also examples of His mercy, His justice, etc. By recognizing the Prophet, we recognize Allah, and none can have true cognizance of the Creator without having cognizance of His representative.

(باب المعبود)

1 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن ابن رئاب وعن غير واحد، عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) قال: من عبدالله بالتوهم فقد كفر (1) ومن عبد الاسم دون المعنى فقد كفر، ومن عبد الاسم والمعنى فقد أشرك، ومن عبد المعنى بإيقاع الاسماء عليه بصفاته التي وصف بها نفسه فعقد عليه قلبه ونطق به لسانه في سرائره وعلانيته (2) فأولئك أصحاب أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) حقا.

وفي حديث آخر: اولئك هم المؤمنون حقا.

2 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن النضر بن سويد، عن هشام بن الحكم أنه سأل أبا عبدالله (عليه السلام) عن أسماء الله واشتقاقها: الله مما هو مشتق؟ قال: فقال لي:

يا هشام الله مشتق من إله والاله يقتضي مألوها والاسم غير المسمى، فمن عبد الاسم دون المعنى فقد كفر ولم يعبد شيئا، ومن عبد الاسم والمعنى فقد كفر وعبد اثنين، ومن عبد المعنى دون الاسم فذاك التوحيد أفهمت يا هشام؟ قال: فقلت: زدني قال: إن لله تسعة وتسعين اسما فلو كان الاسم هو المسمى لكان كل اسم منها إلها ولكن الله معنى يدل عليه بهذه الاسماء وكلها غيره، يا هشام الخبز اسم للمأكول والماء اسم للمشروب والثوب اسم للملبوس والنار اسم للمحرق أفهمت يا هشام فهما تدفع به وتناضل به (3) أعداء نا والمتخذين مع الله عزوجل غيره؟ قلت: نعم، قال: فقال: نفعك الله به وثبتك يا هشام، قال هشام فوالله ما قهرني أحد في التوحيد حتى قمت مقامي هذا.

3 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن العباس بن معروف، عن عبدالرحمن بن أبي نجران قال: كتبت إلى أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) أو قلت له: جعلني الله فداك نعبد الرحمن الرحيم الواحد

____________

(1) أي من غير أن يكون على يقين في وجوده تعالى وصفاته، أو بأن يتوهمه محدودا مدركا بالوهم وانما كفر لان الشك كفر ولان كل محدود ومدرك بالوهم غيره سبحانه فمن عبده كان عابدا لغيره فهو كافر. (آت) (2) في بعض النسخ في [سر امره].

(3) أي تدافع به أعداء نا، وأصل المناضلة: المرامات، يقال: ناضلة أي: رماه، ثم اتسع فيه فقيل فلان يناضل عن فلان إذا تكلم عنه بعذره ودفع عنه. (4) في اكثر النسخ [الملحدين]. [*]

===============

(88)

الاحد الصمد؟ قال: فقال: إن من عبد الاسم دون المسمى بالاسماء أشرك وكفر و جحد ولم يعبد شيئا بل اعبدالله الواحد الاحد الصمد المسمى بهذه الاسماء دون الاسماء إن الاسماء صفات وصف بها نفسه.

I think everyone here is confused. Scholars usually explain this by starting with the argument of the limitation of the language, something that saintly hinted to.

Allah is the creator. He created the ability to create. He created the man who can create. He created the material that human can use to create other things. He created the man who can be a prophet who can have authority on universe so much so that by the authority given to him by Allah , unanimated things can turn alive.

Just because we don't have another word to describe Allah action of creation it dose not mean that Allah and his creation are on the same level of creative ability.

This is called a limitation of our language. I can't recall a certain book in which this is explained well by a scholar but it is well known and largely accepted. It is implemented in this case and other cases related to Allah attributes.

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From ask the shiekh site, by shiekh leghai

Also, on the issue of divine attributes we -according to the teachings of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s)- believe that the only similarity between our characteristics of say: hearing, seeing etc. and that of Allah is the words and that is because human language is limited to worldly and material matters. For example, the meaning of the Wrath of Allah is His punishment and the meaning of being loved by Allah means receiving His rewards. God doesn’t need eyes or ears for seeing and hearing. Imam Ali says:

الْحَمْدُ لله الَّذِي لاَ تُدْرِكُهُ الشَّوَاهِدُ، وَلاَ تَحْوِيهِ الْمَشَاهِدُ، وَلاَ تَرَاهُ النَّوَاظِرُ

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I don't know, but I disagree with anyone who says "Ya Ali" everytime they lift something heavy.

 

Me too. It hurts man. The sentence makes me quite uncomfortable. 

 

When people say Ya Ali Madad after getting up, standing, sitting, even if i re-call correctly, getting up in Salah i feel extremely queasy to my stomach. When people recite the dai'f dua Nade Ali, i can't bear to hear it.

 

I feel it is against my fitrah to turn the man who worshipped and sought for divine help only from Allah swt, to turn our devotion away from Allah swt and to him.

Edited by Tawheed313

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When people say Ya Ali Madad after getting up, standing, sitting, even if i re-call correctly, getting up in Salah i feel extremely queasy to my stomach. When people recite the dai'f dua Nade Ali, i can't bear to hear it.

 

I feel it is against my fitrah to turn the man who worshipped and sought for divine help only from Allah swt, to turn our devotion away from Allah swt and to him.

 

Your problems brother is misinterpretation of words like Only, Other than, Sufficient in religion/Quran. And I remember once I told you that bro:

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030709-names-of-partners-beside-Allah/?p=2812830

 

Seeking help from Ahlulbayt is not seeking help from other than Allah. In my opinion you are far away from a true Tawhid brother.

 

When I says Ya Ali Madad (I am not talking about it during the salah; I don't know its ruling), I know Ali is a worshiper of Allah, I know Ali is nothing and everything he has is granted by Allah Himself due to his special faithfulness:

 

 

If you ask me I would say Ahlulbayt possess (are malik of ) nothing, All they have is granted.

 

The true meaning of tawhid  doesn't come out of rejecting the power of Ahlulbayt that Allah has given to them to help us. The true tawhid comes when you kill your powerful enemy on the battlefield and you say :

 

فَلَمْ تَقْتُلُوهُمْ وَلَـكِنَّ اللّهَ قَتَلَهُمْ وَمَا رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَلَـكِنَّ اللّهَ رَمَى 

 

So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote. 

 

It comes when you librate a city during the war against an armed to teeth enemy but you say :

 

God liberated the city.

 

As Imam Khomeini, a person who believes that we can beg Ahlulbayt for help, said it during the war against Saddam's bathist regime when Iran liberated a strategic city named Khoramshar :

 

God liberated Khoramshar.( Here is the true tawhid and true movahid )

 

 

We are nothing. Everything is Allah. I don't mean we are nothing compared to Allah but actually I mean there is no me , there is no you and there is no us .There is nothing but Allah .

 

The true tawhid doesn't come from believing begging Ahlulbayt for help is shirk, the true tahwid is keeping the following in mind when you are begging them :

 

(لا یغفر الذنوب الا انت ( الله 

 

والى الله ترجع الامور

 

And (all) matters are returned to Allah .

 

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Quran and Ahl albayat are non-separable. Hadith Thaqlayan.

 

إِذَا جَاءَ نَصْرُ اللَّهِ وَالْفَتْحُ,وَرَأَيْتَ النَّاسَ يَدْخُلُونَ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ أَفْوَاجًا, فَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ وَاسْتَغْفِرْهُ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ تَوَّابًا
 
When the victory of Allah has come and the conquest, And you see the people entering into the religion of Allah in multitudes,  Then exalt [Him] with praise of your Lord and ask forgiveness of Him. Indeed, He is ever Accepting of repentance. (Sura Al-Nasr, verses 1, 2 , 3)
 

 

What is Nasr ullah? (The victory of Allah or An-Nasr).

 

The Sura placement in Quran is 110, The verses in this Sura Al-Nasr, are 3. Thus 3 and 110 is the representation of the Nasr ullah.

 

Now come to Name Ali (Ein, La, Ya) - Sum of Jafr Alphabets = 60+40+10 = 110, The letters in name are 3 (Ein, La, Ya). Thus confirming that the Name of Imam "Ali" is declared Nasr ullah / An-nasr. 

 

This is only way we can interpret the meaning of verses and the hadith of the prophet saww, (though some may object to it as usual).

 

Adding further to it, if we look the verse of Sura Ale-Imran (no. 3) at no 110:

 

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ ۗ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُم ۚ
 
مِّنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ
 
You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient. (3:110)
 
أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ ۖ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًا
Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon  them a great kingdom. (4:54
 
Regards
 
Edited by skamran110

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Now come to Name Ali (Ein, La, Ya) - Sum of Jafr Alphabets = 60+40+10 = 110, The letters in name are 3 (Ein, La, Ya). Thus confirming that the Name of Imam "Ali" is declared Nasr ullah / An-nasr.

This is only way we can interpret the meaning of verses and the hadith of the prophet saww, (though some may object to it as usual).

_brother , did someone hacked your account? Numerology is a way to interpret Quran ? Dare I say that it is worse than tafsir bil ra'i?

Nasrallah is related to imam Mahdi

Alfat'h is related to imam Hussain

Here is a good article on the names of imam Ali in Quran though I doubt honestly that anyone will truly benefit from it except aulo al-albab

http://imamali-a.com/?id=559

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Quran and Ahl albayat are non-separable. Hadith Thaqlayan.

 

إِذَا جَاءَ نَصْرُ اللَّهِ وَالْفَتْحُ,وَرَأَيْتَ النَّاسَ يَدْخُلُونَ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ أَفْوَاجًا, فَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ وَاسْتَغْفِرْهُ ۚ إِنَّهُ كَانَ تَوَّابًا
 
When the victory of Allah has come and the conquest, And you see the people entering into the religion of Allah in multitudes,  Then exalt [Him] with praise of your Lord and ask forgiveness of Him. Indeed, He is ever Accepting of repentance. (Sura Al-Nasr, verses 1, 2 , 3)
 

 

What is Nasr ullah? (The victory of Allah ie An-Nasr).

 

The Sura placement in Quran is 110, The verses in this Sura Al-Nasr, are 3. Thus 3 and 110 is the representation of the Nasr ullah.

 

Now come to Name Ali (Ein, La, Ya) - Sum of Jafr Alphabets = 60+40+10 = 110, The letters in name are 3 (Ein, La, Ya). Thus confirming that the Name of Imam "Ali" is declared Nasr ullah / An-nasr. 

 

This is only way we can interpret the meaning of verses and the hadith of the prophet saww, (though some may object to it as usual).

 

Adding further to it, if we look the verse no Sura Ale-Imran (no. 3) and verse no 110:

 

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ ۗ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُم ۚ
 
مِّنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ
 
You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah . If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient. (3:110)
 
أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ النَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ ۖ فَقَدْ آتَيْنَا آلَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَآتَيْنَاهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًا
Or do they envy people for what Allah has given them of His bounty? But we had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom and conferred upon  them a great kingdom. (4:54
 
Regards
 

 

 

`Asalam brother,

 

I understand how thoughtful you are about the verses of the Qur’ān, but looking at some of your threads, you seem to be interpreting verses based off mere opinion (dependent on unproven numerology). You said: "This is only way we can interpret the meaning of verses and the hadith", but what ḥadīths of Ahlul-bayt (عليهم‌ السلام) are you referring to? I can tell you now just by looking at few narrations, your interpretation has no solid foundation. I would suggest you desist from this, as it is impermissible to interpret the words of Allāh (عز و جل) with our opinion (ra`īy). Please read the brief article I wrote concerning this [link].

 

Wa`asalam 

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli

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Thanks for your responses on the post. 

 

The quran itself made it obligatory to think on its verses like in the following verse:

 

كِتَابٌ أَنزَلْنَاهُ إِلَيْكَ مُبَارَكٌ لِّيَدَّبَّرُوا آيَاتِهِ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
Shakir
(It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful.
 

 

Does thinking on the verses of Quran is considered Qiyas?

 

 

Wassalam

Edited by skamran110

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ya ali madad

Do you feel cool saying that, or are you just trying to troll?  I don't see how any Muslim can ask for help from anyone other than Allah.  Some people say "oh, I'm asking Allah for help through Imam Ali."  But Imam Ali is dead.  He can't hear you.  Why not go straight to the source and say "Ya Allah madad"?

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The name of Ali A.S will not leave my mouth and heart till the day I die. I will continue to yell it, till there is no voice left in me. The awliya and ambiya is ever living, they are eternal. They indeed see and hear us. When ever I am in need I will seek help from them, because their remembrance gives strength. By the will of Allah swt, they will forever be my masters. Ya Ali

Edited by Ethics

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Do you feel cool saying that, or are you just trying to troll? I don't see how any Muslim can ask for help from anyone other than Allah. Some people say "oh, I'm asking Allah for help through Imam Ali." But Imam Ali is dead. He can't hear you. Why not go straight to the source and say "Ya Allah madad"?

you're basically disobeying Allah by saying imam Ali (as) is dead.

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The name of Ali A.S will not leave my mouth and heart till the day I die. I will continue to yell it, till there is no voice left in me. The awliya and ambiya is ever living, they are eternal. They indeed see and hear us. When ever I am in need I will seek help from them, because their remembrance gives strength. By the will of Allah swt, they will forever be my masters. Ya Ali

 

Dear brother,

 

The name of Ali will never leave my mouth. He is the mawla of every believer, the rightful succesor of rasullulah s.a.w in the ummah. Through his sons the sunnah are protected, he will intercede for us, if Allah swt so wills. I ask Allah swt for the sake of Muhammed wa ale Muhammed a.s.

 

However, in times of need, when i am depressed and lose all hope, i will remember the lord Muhammed s.a.w cried to, the lord the ahlullbayt a.s cried to, i will shout out and call on my lord Allah swt, as per authentic ahadith from the ahlulbayt a.s. Our Ahlulbayt a.s taught us to have a relationship with Allah swt, and that pleading before Allah swt , cultivating that love and relationship through dua is of extreme importance. Hence you see so many of our dua's are directly to him.

 

I will never make a dua without first mentioning Allah swt, and then reciting salawat(if i can) and if i choose to saying "for the sake of".

 

Dear brother, with the utmost respect, you seem okay with making dua without uttering the name of Allah swt, but you seem offended if i make dua without calling on the imams a.s?

Do you feel cool saying that, or are you just trying to troll?  I don't see how any Muslim can ask for help from anyone other than Allah.  Some people say "oh, I'm asking Allah for help through Imam Ali."  But Imam Ali is dead.  He can't hear you.  Why not go straight to the source and say "Ya Allah madad"?

 

Even if you lived at the time of Imam Ali a.s and he was alive, who would 100 miles away call on him for help? Infact, we don't have any evidence our imams a.s taught us to do this, and i have trawled through many ahadith, and have testimony from our foremost rijalists here.

 

If say, you argued you would call him if he was Alive, 100 miles away, imagine if he was showering, eating, with the utmost respect, using the toilet/washroom? Can we not see the ludicrousy of this?

 

Why are people so averse to simply relying on Allah swt, calling on Allah swt as our ahlulbayt a.s in authentic dua asked us to, and asking Allah swt for the sake of, or through them, but making sure we start a dua first refering to our lord, the most high?

Edited by Tawheed313

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I will not stand by your avid disrespectful attitude any longer. I am sick and tired of your gabble on and on about thinking about our Imams astagfiurllah uses the rest room. Do you have not an ounce of respect. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING!?!? Do you not seek help from your parents because they use the bathroom? LIKE REALLY!!?!?!!? Do you not kiss your moms and dads hands for respect and love, because (I need to make this point clear so forgive me) they use the bathroom. How can you not still be banned with such garbage out of your mouth. Have some haya will you! This isnt a once thing, you keep repeating this over and over again. Can anyone imagine saying such a thing to the prophets or imams face? By the way, common sense really. If you have an IMAM living with you, NEAR you, you can easily ask someone or him, himself,  to tell him to pray for you or help you with your needs. So this 200 miles away is a irrational argument.

Edited by AhlulBayt_313

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`Asalam brother,

 

I understand how thoughtful you are about the verses of the Qur’ān, but looking at some of your threads, you seem to be interpreting verses based off mere opinion (dependent on unproven numerology). You said: "This is only way we can interpret the meaning of verses and the hadith", but what ḥadīths of Ahlul-bayt (عليهم‌ السلام) are you referring to? I can tell you now just by looking at few narrations, your interpretation has no solid foundation. I would suggest you desist from this, as it is impermissible to interpret the words of Allāh (عز و جل) with our opinion (ra`īy). Please read the brief article I wrote concerning this [link].

 

Wa`asalam 

 

Already mentioned in post no. 20  as Hadith Thaqlayn, as quran and ahl albayat are non-separable.

 

 

Thanks for your responses on the post. 

 

The quran itself made it obligatory to think on its verses like in the following verse:

 

كِتَابٌ أَنزَلْنَاهُ إِلَيْكَ مُبَارَكٌ لِّيَدَّبَّرُوا آيَاتِهِ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
Shakir
(It is) a Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful.
 

 

Does thinking on the verses of Quran is Qiyas?

 

 

Wassalam

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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I will not stand by your avid disrespectful attitude any longer. I am sick and tired of your gabble on and on about thinking about our Imams astagfiurllah uses the rest room. Do you have not an ounce of respect. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING!?!? My God, some of you are just disgusting and vile beings who makes any excuse to degrade our Imams A.S. Do you not seek help from your parents because they use the bathroom? LIKE REALLY!!?!?!!? Do you not kiss your moms and dads hands for respect and love, because (I need to make this point clear so forgive me) they use the bathroom. How can you not still be banned with such garbage out of your mouth. Have some haya will you! This isnt a once thing, you keep repeating this over and over again. Can anyone imagine saying such a thing to the prophets or imams face? By the way, common sense really. If you have an IMAM living with you, NEAR you, you can easily ask someone or him, himself,  to tell him to pray for you or help you with your needs. So this 200 miles away is a irrational argument.

 

Dear brother,

 

I am making a very important point here. If you lived in Egypt, and the imam a.s made you a govener (and even wrote you letters), and you were in dire need at the moment, would you cry out to Allah swt to help you, or cry out to Imam Ali a.s to help you in that immediate moment?

 

It has little to do with our holy imams a.s using the restroom. I am trying to emphasize they were humans like us, with the same biological functions - not immortal, omnipotent, overarching beings.

 

Imagine if you cried 'Ya Ali madad' to Imam Ali a.s while he was showering or eating, and you were in egypt, if he was alive? Can you not see, dear brother, with the utmost respect how illogical a thing to do that would be ?

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you're basically disobeying Allah by saying imam Ali (as) is dead.

I don't follow.  Are you saying he's not dead?  That he was never assasinated?  That he was never buried in the ground?  That he isn't waiting for judgement day like the rest of everyone else in history that has died?

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If I am CAPABLE of doing something, I will do it. If the Imam A.S made me governor, CLEARLY, he is and has helped me and guided me. Not only that, but he trusts me and thinks of me as CAPABLE. A vague question has no clear response.

 

Yea everyone understands they were humans, but they were NOT like us. They were beyond mere vile humans. They were genetically human sure, but they had Allah swt 100% behind them. They were endowed with special responsibilities and abilities and had special servants by their side. By the will of Allah swt their calls were without a doubt heard with an immediate response. A man like Isa A.S who could cure the sick and bring back to life man was no ordinary being. Their significance as a human has no affect over their positions, except that it shows how far we can go if we truly believed.

 

Imagine a hypothetical scenario? Is this how weak your rubbish arguments are? Well imagine, the imams were pure beings, from ANY impurity, as the quran says.

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If I am CAPABLE of doing something, I will do it. If the Imam A.S made me governor, CLEARLY, he is and has helped me and guided me. Not only that, but he trusts me and thinks of me as CAPABLE. A vague question has no clear response.

 

Yea everyone understands they were humans, but they were NOT like us. They were beyond mere vile humans. They were genetically human sure, but they had Allah swt 100% behind them. They were endowed with special responsibilities and abilities and had special servants by their side. By the will of Allah swt their calls were without a doubt heard with an immediate response. A man like Isa A.S who could cure the sick and bring back to life man was no ordinary being. Their significance as a human has no affect over their positions, except that it shows how far we can go if we truly believed.

 

Imagine a hypothetical scenario? Is this how weak your rubbish arguments are? Well imagine, the imams were pure beings, from ANY impurity, as the quran says.

 

Dear brother,

 

I , with the utmost respect only have a question:

 

If during the time of Imam Ali a.s he was in Kufa, and you in egypt, and you needed immediate help, would you call out to Allah swt, or Ali a.s?

 

If you called out to him, when he was alive, what if he was showering, eating, grooming his beard?

 

Ofcourse he is purified, ofcourse he is the imam a.s, ofcourse he is among the greatest of creations, but this does not answer the question, with due respect. They stil fell ill, ate, had to have the same biological functions, were limited, were knowledgable more than any other being yet were ignorant of many things (such as grains of sand, stars in the sky and so on)

 

Is it not more logical to start dua by taking the name of Allah swt, as we must do for anything ? And then ask Allah swt for the sake of Ali a.s?

Edited by Tawheed313

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I wonder if Imam Ali a.s knows or knew people would seek protection from him rather than the lord he himself sought protection from. And i know some people claim seeking protection from him is the same as seeking protection from Allah swt, but i just do not buy into that logic.

Edited by Tawheed313

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Dear brother,

 

I , with the utmost respect only have a question:

 

If during the time of Imam Ali a.s he was in Kufa, and you in egypt, and you needed immediate help, would you call out to Allah swt, or Ali a.s?

 

If you called out to him, when he was alive, what if he was showering, eating, grooming his beard?

 

Ofcourse he is purified, ofcourse he is the imam a.s, ofcourse he is among the greatest of creations, but this does not answer the question, with due respect. They stil fell ill, ate, had to have the same biological functions, were limited, were knowledgable more than any other being yet were ignorant of many things (such as grains of sand, stars in the sky and so on)

 

Is it not more logical to start dua by taking the name of Allah swt, as we must do for anything ? And then ask Allah swt for the sake of Ali a.s?

 

Please do not compare Imams  (as)  and their abilities to other humans.

They  (as)  are in charge of the universe. They  (as)  are successors (خلفا) on the earth.

Doing something does not prevent them (as)  from doing other things.

May Allah s.w.t. help us all, specially me, to gain more knowledge.

Edited by Abdul Majid

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