Do Shia Give Divine Attributes To The Imams?

[mina]

It's about br tawheeds question 'how a call can reach the Imam (as)? My post was explaining how that can be possible as an exampld and if the Imam gets the call to make wasila and pray for us then where is the problem?

[peace seeker II]

It's about br tawheeds question 'how a call can reach the Imam (as)? My post was explaining how that can be possible as an exampld and if the Imam gets the call to make wasila and pray for us then where is the problem?

 

it's all in how we do it . was it the sunnah of the prophet to call upon martyrs? no? then if it isn't then we must stay away from this, as it's an innovation. Same goes of course primarily for Allah's guidance through the Quran. 

 

Meeting a prophet in a dream is like meeting him in real life, so that would not be considered a dua. that's if i understood your point correctly. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

 

quote

:"it's in future tense, talking about judgment day, and it's limited to what Allah wants to show. Plus it has no mention of making duas to others than Allah, while the real back breaking verses against falsehood are the ones that clearly say we should not make duas to any other than God .. in the Quran and hadiths. 

 

And prophet Shuwayb talking to the dead doesn't mean they hear it, because only Allah can make those in the graves hear. Also it doesn't show him making duas to martyred people, which is the whole issue here.":end qoute

No, it isn't. How is it in the future tense? The words here are "shall intercede" and not "shall be interceding", as per grammatical rules of classical arabic. And if you are so so intent to prove them talking about the judgement day, how about this verse-

 

We sent not the Messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come to the Messenger and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.(Al-Qur'an, Surah an-Nisa, 4:64)

 

 

The sahaba had commotted a sin, and it was a thing between them and Allah(swt), then why was the prophet's intervention required? Why did Allah command them to seek the prophet(sawaw)'s intercession? Is Allah comitting a shirk here by commanding the sahaba(ra) to seek the prophet's wasila, if indeed these verses are meant solely for the judgement day, as you claim?

Listen brother, wasila is NOT making dua to other than Allah(swt). It means asking the prophet(sawaw) or the ahlul bayt(asws) to make a dua to Allah on our behalf, just like asking any other pious muslim to make a dua for us. We do NOT believe that these pious intercessors have the power to benefit or harm us independent of Allah(swt)'s will. The help ultimately comes from Allah alone, and NO ONE ELSE.All they can do is to make an entreaty to Allah on our behalf; whether or not the wish of ours is granted is absolutely subject to Allah's wish and discretion.Hope I am clear.

Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah, the inspirational figure behind the Salafi movement, was also averse to the practice of tawassul,  and opposed it to death, but even he had to admit that the dead can hear us, of course, with the will and consent of Allah, as proven by this fatwa of his-

“There is no doubt that they are aware of the living that visit them.The proof of dead awareness comes from the two Sahih Books of Bukhari and Muslim in which Rasool Allah s.a.w. said that when people have buried a dead person and leave for home, the dead can hear the thumps of sandaled feet of those who leave.”

Majmuaat-al-Fatawa by Ibn Taymiyyah, vol. 24, page 362

[AbdusSibtayn]

it's all in how we do it . was it the sunnah of the prophet to call upon martyrs? no? then if it isn't then we must stay away from this, as it's an innovation. Same goes of course primarily for Allah's guidance through the Quran. 

 

Meeting a prophet in a dream is like meeting him in real life, so that would not be considered a dua. that's if i understood your point correctly. 

Brother, the reason why the prophet(sawaw) did not need to seek intercession was because he was already the mightiest of the prohets(as), the best of all creation, the highest in the eyes of Allah(swt), and the closest to Him.None can compare with him.

Ofcourse we should follow the prophet's sunnah, such as this one-

A blind man came to the Prophet and said: “Invoke Allah for me that he help me.” He replied: If you wish I will delay this, and it would be better for you, and if you wish I will invoke Allah the Exalted (for you).” He said: “Then invoke him.” The Prophet said to him: idhhab fa tawadda’, wa salli rak`atayn thumma qul — “Go and make an ablution, pray two rak`at, then say: “O Allah, I am asking you (as’aluka) and turning to you (atawajjahu ilayka) with your Prophet Muhammad (bi nabiyyika Muhammad), the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (ya Muhammad), I am turning with you to my Lord regarding my present need / I am asking my Lord with your intercession concerning the return of my sight (inni atawajjahu bika ila rabbi fi hajati hadhih — another version has: inni astashfi`u bika `ala rabbi fi raddi basari) so that He will fulfill my need; O Allah, allow him to intercede (with you) for me (allahumma shaffi`hu fiyya).”

related by Ahmad (4:138 #17246-17247), Tirmidhi (hasan sahih gharib — Da`awat Ch. 119), Ibn Majah (Book of Iqamat al-salat wa al-sunnat, Ch. on Salat al-hajat #1385), Nasa’i (`Amal al-yawm wa al-laylat p. 417-418 #658-660), al-Hakim (1:313, 1:526), Tabarani in al-Kabir, and rigorously authenticated as sound (sahih) by nearly fifteen hadith masters including Ibn Hajar, Dhahabi, Shawkani, and Ibn Taymiyya.

A man would come to `Uthman ibn `Affan for a certain need, but the latter would not pay him any attention nor look into his need, upon which he complained of his condition to `Uthman ibn Hunayf who told him: “Go and make ablution, then go to the mosque and pray two rak`at, then say (this du`a),” and he mentioned the invocation of the blind man, “then go (to `Uthman again).” The man went, did as he was told, then came to `Uthman’s door, upon which the door-attendant came, took him by the hand, and brought him to `Uthman who sat him with him on top of the carpet, and said: “Tell me what your need is.” After this the man went out, met `Uthman ibn Hunayf again, and said to him: “May Allah reward you! Previously he would not look into my need nor pay any attention to me, until you spoke to him.” He replied: “I did not speak to him, but I saw the Prophet when a blind man came to him complaining of his failing eyesight,” and he mentioned to him the substance of the previous narration.

-authenticated by Bayhaqi, Abu Nu`aym in the Ma`rifa, Mundhiri (Targhib 1:473-474), Haythami, and Tabarani in the Kabir (9:17-18) and the Saghir (1:184/201-202) on the authority of `Uthman ibn Hunayf’s nephew Abu Imama ibn Sahl ibn Hunayf: 

[Muslim2010]

I have the following verses on this issue:

 

O Prophet, indeed We have sent you as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner. (33:45)

 

Indeed, We have sent you as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner (48;08)

 

Indeed, We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness upon you just as We sent to Pharaoh a messenger. (73:15)

 

And say, "Do , for Allah will see your deeds, and  His Messenger and the believers. And you will be returned to the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and He will inform you of what you used to do." (9:105)

 

The above verses completes the true picture that the Prophet saw  has been sent as witness  (and this is not in future tense) on us to watch our deeds, if he does not see our deeds then his witness becomes unacceptable.

 

Regards

 

It's about br tawheeds question 'how a call can reach the Imam (as)? My post was explaining how that can be possible as an exampld and if the Imam gets the call to make wasila and pray for us then where is the problem?

 

1- The quran mentions the following:

 

042:025 It is He who accepts the repentance of His servants, and excuses their misdeeds and knows what you do

 

009:104 Do they not know that it is Allah who accepts the repentance of His servants and receives the charities, and that it is Allah who is the All-clement, the All-merciful

 

2- For the prophet saww asking for  forgiveness of people , we do have the following verses from the quran;

 

So by mercy from Allah , [O Muhammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah . Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him]. 3:159

 

The believers are only those who believe in Allah and His Messenger and, when they are [meeting] with him for a matter of common interest, do not depart until they have asked his permission. Indeed, those who ask your permission, [O Muhammad] - those are the ones who believe in Allah and His Messenger. So when they ask your permission for something of their affairs, then give permission to whom you will among them and ask forgiveness for them of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 24:62

 

O Prophet, when the believing women come to you pledging to you that they will not associate anything with Allah , nor will they steal, nor will they commit unlawful sexual intercourse, nor will they kill their children, nor will they bring forth a slander they have invented between their arms and legs, nor will they disobey you in what is right - then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 60:12

 

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful. 4:64

 

If only they had been satisfied with what Allah and His Messenger gave them and said, "Sufficient for us is Allah ; Allah will give us of His bounty, and [so will] His Messenger; indeed, we are desirous toward Allah ," [it would have been better for them]. 9:59

 

3- The principle has been outlined in Quran that Allah has permitted the Prophet to make Dua for forgiveness of people or for giving of bounty and Allah accepts his Dua. This is real example of him being wasila. There are many verses exhibiting this facts in quran. The tense of verse 4:64 in past cannot be any objection as the other verses as given in quran are still evidence of this fact. The Quran is a blessing to all ,mankind for all the times and it is not limited to any time thus this facts is applicable till the end of time. The prophet can benefit with the permission from Allah. This is established principle without any restriction of time (past or present). in the light of verses of quran (as quoted above).

 

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. 33:62

 

4- The quran does mention the Prophets who performed miracles with the permission of Allah swt. The prophet Esa as gave live to the dead and he also healed the blind. He will come and pray behind the 12th successor of the prophet Muhammad saww yet the prophet Muhammad saww and his pure progeny imams are considered doubtful/ incapable  of providing benefit to the people with the permission of Allah.

 

5- The Quran mentions to follow the Prophet (without his presence):

 

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى يُحْبِبْكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌۭ

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ

 

003:031 Say, ‘If you love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.’

003:032 Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Apostle.’ But if they turn away, indeed Allah does not like the faithless.

 

6-

039:046 Say, ‘O Allah! Originator of the heavens and the earth, Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, You will judge between Your servants concerning that about which they used to differ.’

 

Regards 

Edited June 26, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

nobody ever argued that asking forgiveness for others is ok. 

 

people are arguing that when Allah says make only dua to Allah, that Allah does not mean Allah + Mohamed + Ali etc etc

 

that the name Allah is purely for our God, and not for people. None of the verses above show the permissibility of making duas to others than Allah .. Making duas / spiritual supplications is reserved for Allah alone in the Quran and the sunnah of the prophet.

 

do we have a single hadith of prophet making dua to others than Allah for help?

 

do we have a single hadith of prophet making dua to martyred ahlulbayt members?

 

do we have a single hadith of the prophet telling us to do so?

 

if not, then it's outside the sunnah of the Prophet and is a bidaa innovation.

 

Same goes with the question if Allah every permits dua to others than HIm in Quran, or if He claims the opposite.

and let us not mix up dua with talking to physically present people again.

 

we all know the meaning of the word dua. like "make dua for me" .. it's not talking to people, it's supplication.

[Muslim2010]

The point wise reply is given below:

 

1-Asking forgiveness is OK  but yet denied when it comes to the descendants of the Prophets who are his successors.

 

2- No one is taking the prophet and imams as Illah which is a misconception being quoted. however we do have verses that they (The Imams ) are Auliya chosen by Allah swt.  and they are chosen servants of Allah swt and they are not the Auliya whom people has chosen at their own intentions without any authority from Allah swt.

 

3- Many times it has been discusses in the forum and we know each other point of very well, as no one is considering any one as Illah other than Allah swt. however ,the verses of intercession as perceived by you is quite disagreed.

 

4- We do have calling of Imam Ali for help by the prophet on many occasions, even in Mubahila. as well, yet a Controversial issue among us.?

 

5-The prophet and Imams are witnesses on us, they are martyred except 12th Imam. No one like us can think on their virtues and abilities. We already know that Allah swt, the Prophet and Imam Ali only know each other (not a mortal like myself or other). Asking them is not Dua but Calling to Auliya chosen by Allah swt (like the Prophet did on many occasions.) and it is no way near to calling of Auliya beside Allah which is not permitted. This is considered an exaggerated/ distorted meaning of Dua or Supplication which is reserved for Allah swt.

 

6-When the clear verses of quran and hadith are there why we do have an objection on the prophet and Imams (and their followers)? They (The prophet and Imams) are our Wasila and Leading Rope to Allah swt. Why these facts are neglected and denied? I do not understand.

 

7-Who say that these hadith and verses are not there? Please do read the above responses.

 

8-Clear misconception and illusions, no need to give a thought even for it.

 

9-Responded all above, Take care and have a nice month of Ramzan.

 

Regards

Edited June 26, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

salam,

 

as you said we have discussed it many times, and again, we don't have a single example of the prophet calling upon martyrs for help, the example given above such as mubahila is when the family of the prophet was physically there and is not considered a spiritual dua for help, such as "ya Ali Madad" 

 

furthermore, we have a "dua" called "dua tawasul" which asks directly spiritually of ahlulbayt for help. Even shias all over the world call it "dua". 

 

the verse about the prophet witnessing (in future tense in relation to when we return to Allah) is not proof that they are witnessing now, and it does not say it's ok to make dua to them. This is additionally confirmed by the clear verse saying that Martyrs are with their Lord receiving rizq. So it makes sense that they will witness in some form when we return to Allah as well.

 

So, again: Allah makes it clear that we should only make "dua" to Him, and we know of the prophets sunnah, that he never made "dua" to martyred people. I am not talking about talking to people who are physically walking the earth, or meeting them in a dream or vision.

 

jazak Allah Khair

 

have a great ramazan and all the best to you and your family

[Muslim2010]

Thanks for response.

 

The Quran mentions to follow the sunnah of the prophet without any presence of the Prophet and any one else. This has been quoted in many verses mentioned for obeying the prophet like 3:31, 32. etc  (Ref post 75.). 

 

Thus asking for hadith for the physical presence of any one for calling the prophet (or his successor)  is against these verses of quran and  thus it is rejected. Every calling is not Dua The calling of the Prophet for his Ahl albayat in Mubahila is an established Prophet sunna and it is mentioned in quran..

 

They are the chosen servants of Allah swt, they are Auliya chosen by Allah swt and they are not the Auliya chosen by the people without any authority from Allah swt. 

 

They are the leading rope to Allah swt they are the waseela  leading to Allah swt,. many hadiths have already been quoted in the above responses for the prophet calling to imams and ahl albayat and even those are denied just because of biased eye. 

 

No one is denying to make dua or supplication to Allah swt but this is also established fact that the prophet calling imams in the need of hour is proven and it is a prophet sunna without any denial.

 

Take care of your fasting as well.

 

Regards

Edited June 27, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

welcome and hope likewise your fast is vastly rewarding dear skamran110,

 

well, as mentioned before mubahila was with physically present people, and not in form of supplication. what i mean is that the prophet did not raise his hands and whisper "Ali, Hassan, .. Hussain .. etc .   help me!! come to me now" .. no, he physically called for them with his 5 senses, to their 5 senses, like if we call our relatives on the phone or at home to gather them. This does not qualify as dua. If our parents summon us, then this is not "dua".

 

and obeying the prophet is following his sunnah in well-established an accepted hadiths about the prophet, like Imam Ali told Malik el Ashtar. Imam Ali did not tell Malik el Ashtar to call him for help in supplications. He said to refer to the thaqalayn in form of quran and narrations.

 

i think that all scholars will agree that obeying the prophet means following his well established sunnah / way and commands that are present in the narrations. did the prophet order us to make duas to him or any body else of ahlulbayt? did the prophet make dua (spiritual supplication) to any other than Allah. the answer is no, therefore the sunnah is not to do so. And obeying the prophet here will be to only make dua to Allah. Thats what obeying the prophet means.

regards and all the best

[peace seeker II]

here some hadiths i found regarding the sunnah of the prophet:

 

H 166, Ch. 19, h 11

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Washsha’ from Muthanna al-Hannat from abu Basir who has said the following.
"I asked (Imam) abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) saying, ‘We face such issue about which there is nothing said in the book of Allah or in the Sunnah, tradition of the holy Prophet (s.a.). Can use our own opinion in such matters?’" The Imam replied, "No, you must not do so. If you would find the truth you will receive no rewards for it an if missed the truth you have forged lies against Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious." 

 

 

H 778, Ch. 66, h 6

Al-Husayn ibn al-Hasan al-Hassani has narrated in a Marfu‘ manner, rafa‘ahu, and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Ibrahim ibn Ishaq al-Ahmari has narrated in a marfu‘ manner, rafa‘ahu, the following.

 

"When Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) was injured the visitors crowded around him saying,

 

"O Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.), (please, grant us) your directive will." The Imam (a.s.) then said, "You must fold the pillow for me (so I can speak)." He then said, "All praise belongs to Allah as He is worthy of it. We follow His commands. I praise Him jus as He has loved it. There is no lord except Allah, Who is One, the only One, the self- sufficient is His own description of His genealogy. O people, every man, in his running away, comes face to face with what he runs away from. The appointed time (to die) is the driver of the soul to it (the time of death). Running away from death is rushing to find it. How many days have come and gone in which I search for the secret of this matter, however, Allah disdains to do otherwise, but to keep it secret. It certainly is beyond comprehension; it is a hidden knowledge.

 

 

"My directive will to you is that you must not consider any thing like Allah, Great is Whose praise. You must not disregard the Sunnah (traditions) of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.). Keep these two pillars straight and light these two beacons. You will not face any blames until you do not disperse ( remain united). Every man is held responsible for what assiduously gains. Ignorant, (the lay) people’s burden has been reduced. The Lord is Merciful, the Imam is knowledgeable and religion is a constructive system. Yesterday I was your companion, today (I am) a lesson for you and tomorrow I will depart you. If one can remain steadfast at this slippery position then that is the goal. However, if the foot would waver it is because we live under the shadows of the branches, in the blowing winds, under the shadow of dissipating clouds in the air and disappearing traces on the land. I was your neighbor that lived along you with my body for a number of days. You will soon follow my dead body (to the grave). It will be a motionless body that moved, a silent one that spoke (so sweet). My silence, my closed eyes and my motionless lambs must be held as the best preachers. They are far better preachers to than an eloquent orator. I have said farewell to you as the one who expects re- union. Tomorrow you see my days and Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, will reveal my secrets and you will know me better when will not find me in my place and the holding of others my position. If I will survive I will be the authority for my own-self but if I will die then death is my destination. If I will forgive (my assassin) then forgiveness is a means of getting closer (to Allah) and for you it is good deed. You must forgive and ignore. Do you not like that Allah will forgive you? How great is the sorrow for the neglectful ones whose life will testimony for his own condemnation or lead him his days to misfortune. May Allah place us and you among those who do not fall short in life from obedience to Allah because of his desire (to obey Him) or that he may not suffer after death. We are only for Him and with Him."

Then he turned to al-Hassan (a.s.) and said, "My son, one strike for one strike you will not be in sin." 

 

it is interesting how we should not use our opinions beyond what is clearly written in the book of Allah and the sunnah. We are talking about spiritual supplication to others than Allah. we don't have that in the Quran or the Sunnah.

 

Likewise, if we look at the speech by imam Ali before passing away, it does not sound like somebody who tells us to call him for help. It sounds like a farewell speech which awaits reunion in judgment day in sha Allah ..

 

thanks jazak Allah Khair

 

(wasalam)

[Muslim2010]

Do we need hadith for the verses of Quran in place where it is quite crystal clear  defined matter in Quran?

 

No the quran is the first source of religion and the hadith is the second. May people should undertsand it.

 

Regards

Edited June 27, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

the Quran never once gives an instant of a prophet making dua / spiritual supplication to any other than Allah. 

 

Again, talking to people who are physically present, like Imam Ali before passing away and "departing", does not count as "dua".

 

the Quran is clear on this, and the sunnah of the Prophet is clear on this. Do we have a single instant of the Prophet making spiritual "dua" to any other than Allah? in the Quran or in the sunnah? no! not a single instant.

 

again .. spiritual dua … supplication .. not the same as talking to physically present people.

 

regards and all the best 

[Muslim2010]

The discussion conducted so far necessitates: The verse of quran instructing that the presence (or physical presence)  of the Prophet or Ahl albayat is Mandatory to follow the Quran and the Prophet. 

 

However no such verse has been presented yet and in the absence of any such verse all illusions and misconceptions are un-acceptable.

 

The verse of Mubahila (3:61) is quite clearly defined in the quran and it cannot be denied by any Muslim.

 

[ 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come Let us Call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

 

Thus every calling is not Dua, and it does not contradict the concept of Dua or Supplication made alone to Allah swt that is reserved for almighty.

 

[3:31] Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL

 

[shakir 17:71] (Remember) the day when We will Call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.

 

Does Allah swt permit the action that is not permitted at any time in the religion,  or thereafter by calling people with his Imam? This Verse  Permits Calling of Imams who are Auliya Chosen by Allah swt.

 

[33:62] (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.

 

This may be objected that Allah swt will permit in life thereafter, and it is not permitted now. But the Quran is the book of guidance and it guide the Muslims forever with its stated verses, thus this objection is rejected by the above quoted verse 33:62.

 

Indeed it is We who revive the dead and write what they have sent ahead and their effects [which they left behind], and We have figured Everything in a Manifest Imam (36:12)

 

[42:10] And in whatever thing you disagree, the judgment thereof is (in) Allah's (hand); that is Allah, my Lord, on Him do I rely and to Him do I turn time after time.

 

And Allah swt knows the Best.

 

Regards

 

 

Edited June 27, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

Mubahila is physical summoning.

 

When your parents call you, do they make "dua"?

 

each time you talk to people around you, is that "dua"?

 

 

 

dua is supplication. why do you ignore this? or do you believe that your parents asking you to come to them is a form of "dua"? Because Mubahila is the Prophet calling his family that is physically there the same way.

 

regards

[layman]

 

Again, talking to people who are physically present, like Imam Ali before passing away and "departing", does not count as "dua".

 

Source: Ain-al-Hayat, By: Allama Muhammad Baqir Majlisi

 

One night, Hibba Arabi, went with Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) to the graveyard of Wadi as Salam near Al Najaf. Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) stood there as if in conversation with someone. Hibba Arabi got tired standing there for long. He sat several times and got up. When he could bear the delay no further, he told to Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as), “You must be tired. Take some rest!”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) said, “I have love for the Mu’mins! Let me talk with them!”

He asked, “O Amir’ul-Mu’mineen (as)! In what conditions are they?”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) said, “They are sitting happily in groups!”

He asked, “Are their bodies here too!”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) replied, “No! Only the spirits are there. Wheresoever a Mu’min expires, his spirit comes here!”

 

It is narrated that a person said to Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as), O Imam! It is said that the spirits of mu’mins keep flying near the Firmament in the shape of green colored birds!” The Imam (as) replied, “It isn’t true! The spirit of a mu’min is not such a trivial thing in the eyes of Allah that it is transformed into a bird. It remains there in a sublime form.”

A person told to Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as) that his brother is in Baghdad. If he dies there, he would be very far from him! The Imam (as) said, “Don’t worry! Wherever a Mu’min dies, in the East or the West, his spirit would come to the Wadi as Salam!” The man asked, “Where is this valley?” The Imam (as) replied, “Near and behind the city of Koofa!”

 

Abu Baseer narrates from Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as) that the Imam said, “The spirits of mu’mins rest under heavenly trees and talk with each other. When a new spirit arrives, the others want to leave it alone for some time that it has passed through the hardships of leaving the earthly body. Then they ask it about some persons. When it says that the person are alive and kicking, they become happy and predict that they will join them sooner or later! When it says that someone has already died and his spirit has not come there, they all cry in unison, ‘ho!ho!’ meaning that he must certainly have gone to the Hell!”

I

t is narrated from Abu Baseer that he inquired from Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as), “O’ Imam! Where are the spirits of mu’mins?” The Imam (as) said, “They live in rooms provided to them in the Heaven! They eat and drink heavenly victuals! They pray to Allah to hasten the Qiyamat, and fulfill the promise made to them and make the living mu’mins join their ranks.”

Edited June 27, 2015 by layman

[peace seeker II]

 

Source: Ain-al-Hayat, By: Allama Muhammad Baqir Majlisi

 

One night, Hibba Arabi, went with Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) to the graveyard of Wadi as Salam near Al Najaf. Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) stood there as if in conversation with someone. Hibba Arabi got tired standing there for long. He sat several times and got up. When he could bear the delay no further, he told to Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as), “You must be tired. Take some rest!”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) said, “I have love for the Mu’mins! Let me talk with them!”

He asked, “O Amir’ul-Mu’mineen (as)! In what conditions are they?”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) said, “They are sitting happily in groups!”

He asked, “Are their bodies here too!”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) replied, “No! Only the spirits are there. Wheresoever a Mu’min expires, his spirit comes here!”

 

It is narrated that a person said to Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as), O Imam! It is said that the spirits of mu’mins keep flying near the Firmament in the shape of green colored birds!” The Imam (as) replied, “It isn’t true! The spirit of a mu’min is not such a trivial thing in the eyes of Allah that it is transformed into a bird. It remains there in a sublime form.”

A person told to Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as) that his brother is in Baghdad. If he dies there, he would be very far from him! The Imam (as) said, “Don’t worry! Wherever a Mu’min dies, in the East or the West, his spirit would come to the Wadi as Salam!” The man asked, “Where is this valley?” The Imam (as) replied, “Near and behind the city of Koofa!”

 

Abu Baseer narrates from Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as) that the Imam said, “The spirits of mu’mins rest under heavenly trees and talk with each other. When a new spirit arrives, the others want to leave it alone for some time that it has passed through the hardships of leaving the earthly body. Then they ask it about some persons. When it says that the person are alive and kicking, they become happy and predict that they will join them sooner or later! When it says that someone has already died and his spirit has not come there, they all cry in unison, ‘ho!ho!’ meaning that he must certainly have gone to the Hell!”

I

t is narrated from Abu Baseer that he inquired from Imam Ja’far As-Sadiq (as), “O’ Imam! Where are the spirits of mu’mins?” The Imam (as) said, “They live in rooms provided to them in the Heaven! They eat and drink heavenly victuals! They pray to Allah to hasten the Qiyamat, and fulfill the promise made to them and make the living mu’mins join their ranks.”

 

 

yes that's a beautiful hadith describing to us how the dead or martyred momins are provided for somewhere, and that it's ok to send salams to them, thanks

[IslamLover114]

salam to dear brothers and sisters, this is my first post in chatforum.

 

The post given above by layman provides hadiths mentioning that the souls of momins are kept in wadi salam. They can pray for the living momins. thus it gives indication that the souls of imams can also benefit to the living momins by paying for the living momins as they are waseela towards Allah. Also the hadith mentions that they are aware of the momins who have gone before them.

 

The post 84 by skamran110 asks about the verse pertaining the presence of the prophet and imams for obeying quran or the prophet, but i don't think it exists in quran. The other verses quoted in that posts are quite obvious regrading the prophet or imams.

 

Thanks for allowing me to initiate this post.

[peace seeker II]

salam to dear brothers and sisters, this is my first post in chatforum.

 

The post given above by layman provides hadiths mentioning that the souls of momins are kept in wadi salam. They can pray for the living momins. thus it gives indication that the souls of imams can also benefit to the living momins by paying for the living momins as they are waseela towards Allah. Also the hadith mentions that they are aware of the momins who have gone before them.

 

The post 84 by skamran110 asks about the verse pertaining the presence of the prophet and imams for obeying quran or the prophet, but i don't think it exists in quran. The other verses quoted in that posts are quite obvious regrading the prophet or imams.

 

Thanks for allowing me to initiate this post.

 

walaikum salaam warahmat Allah .. welcome and hope you have a great stay and use Shiachat as a waseela to approach Allah,

 

the above hadith does not show that the people in the state of martyrdom or death can hear duas of living. They get their news from fresh people arriving according to the hadith. At the same time it shows that the Imam does not ask them for help. There is no mention of the physically living asking them for help, therefore this hadith does not support the likes of "dua" tawasul or nade Ali, which should be reserved for Allah, as all "duas" should be according to Allah and His Prophet's way.

 

we have still not a single hadith showing the prophet making dua to others than God .. that in itself should make things clear. additionally to Quran.

 

thanks and all the best and welcome again! fi aman ilah and Ramadan Kareem

[layman]

 

Source: Ain-al-Hayat, By: Allama Muhammad Baqir Majlisi

 

One night, Hibba Arabi, went with Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) to the graveyard of Wadi as Salam near Al Najaf. Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) stood there as if in conversation with someone. Hibba Arabi got tired standing there for long. He sat several times and got up. When he could bear the delay no further, he told to Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as), “You must be tired. Take some rest!”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) said, “I have love for the Mu’mins! Let me talk with them!”

He asked, “O Amir’ul-Mu’mineen (as)! In what conditions are they?”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) said, “They are sitting happily in groups!”

He asked, “Are their bodies here too!”

Amir’ul-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (as) replied, “No! Only the spirits are there. Wheresoever a Mu’min expires, his spirit comes here!”

 

 

 

An example that the Living can talk to the physically death persons (mukmins, shahids...)  Meaning communication can be established.

[IslamLover114]

Imams are eyes and hands of Allah quoted in hadith,and  then they can establish communication to the  died persons.

.

[peace seeker II]

An example that the Living can talk to the physically death persons (mukmins, shahids...)  Meaning communication can be established.

 

yes i hope you say salaams to prophet mohamed each time you pray in second person .. "salam alayka ayahul nabi .. "  of course talking to the dead and martyred people is something that is not considered a dua .. or pleading or supplication. it's something that we have record of ahlul bayt doing. Like Prophet talking to the killed people of Badr, and so on. That we have record of.

 

but we don't have record of the prophet or ahlulbayt making dua (supplication asking of dead or martyred people for help spiritually). 

 

If we follow the above hadith, then we should go visit any dying momin and ask them before they die, to inform others that we want them to make dua for us. Because according to the hadith, this is how they get their info.

 

At the same time we can not be 100% sure each time we talk to dead people at their graves, that they hear us. Because they could be somewhere else, as is mentioned in the hadith above. Maybe only somebody with a gift can see or perceive where they are and so on.

 

it's a nice hadith anyway i enjoyed it, thanks!

 

jazak Allah Khair

 

have a blessed Ramadan

[layman]

yes i hope you say salaams to prophet mohamed each time you pray in second person .. "salam alayka ayahul nabi .. "  of course talking to the dead and martyred people is something that is not considered a dua .. or pleading or supplication. it's something that we have record of ahlul bayt doing. Like Prophet talking to the killed people of Badr, and so on. That we have record of.

 

but we don't have record of the prophet or ahlulbayt making dua (supplication asking of dead or martyred people for help spiritually). 

 

 

Prophet and Imams are the highest level of status (they are pure, purified and sinless--33:33), and they don't need to ask help from a lower level in order to reach Allah swt.  They are the closest to HIM and shortest distance to HIM.

 

However, Imam Ali (as) showed that communication to mukmin and shuhada (spiritual means) who are physically ceased to exist, by permission of Allah swt is possible.  And Imam Ali (as) did inform that those mukmins who die are making duas to Allah swt for the living ones.

 

The call for help that most Shias are referring to... is to Prophet or Imams or martyrs of Karbala who are alive, who status are highest and closer to Allah swt. This type of call is classified as asking for "intercession".  This spiritual call to those who are closer to HIM and alive (highest level) and who can make duas to Allah swt for the livings ones.

 

Shias are calling for help from those who are alive (mukmins and syuhada at the highest spiritual level) because they believe that the communication is open to spiritual world (spiritually, they are not cut off from us), and this is called an intercession, with the intention that only Allah swt can grant everything, and it is just a waseela... a mean to reach HIM.

 

There are people who believe that we are cut off from the spiritual world, that is something not acceptable to many.

 

The Holy Prophet has said: "Had not the satans been roaming around their hearts, the human beings would have seen the whole kingdom of the heavens and the earth."

Edited June 28, 2015 by layman

[peace seeker II]

we need to give the highest status .. al-Ali to Allah .. that is one of his names. He is beyond the highest .. and furthermore .. your interpretation of the verse 33:33 is wrong. it does not say `9they are pure, purified and sinless--33:33) it says "purify you with [extensive] purification." .. the word sinless doesn't even exist in Arabic. Do you know know what sinless means in Arabic, i don't. Where did you get the false translation for 33:33 from? would be interesting to know.

 

the hadith shows that An Imam talks one way to physically dead people. Where is a single hadith on this earth that shows an Imam or prophet asking dead or martyred people to make duas for him? where does it show anybody of them telling us to do so? they don't exist? then it's bidaa innovation and is not part of the sunnah. very simple.

 

show me one hadith  of the prophet calling anybody for intercession? are you interested in the prophet's way? then follow his documented way. Just because people re of higher status does not mean we should make dua to them. dua to others than Allah is forbidden in quran, and your above hadith does not show dua. 

 

and nobody other than Allah knows all the hidden of the heavens and earth. i follow quran and hadith. how about you? quran says no duas to others than God .. even for intercession purpose. hadiths say the prophets never did dua to others than Allah .. so what do we do?

[guest050817]

Is Allah swt not enough as the one to ask to who we should cry to, make a divine plea for supplication, be the first we call out to in times of need, even if we add for the sake of the ahlulbayt a.s and add salawat on Muhammed wa ale Muhammed a.s?

 

Why are we complicating it for ourselves?

 

Dua is a means to form a connection with Allah swt, to develop reliance on him. Why sever that direct connection?

 

Intercession is even only with his pardon and permission, why not ask him for their intercession?

 

And why not simply ask the imams a.s to *pray* to Allah swt for you ? Why are people asking them to actually grant them risq, children, health, wealth, forgiveness perhaps?

 

By the way, any belief is not acceptable so long as one says 'it is not independent of Allah swt'. Tafweed is also by the power and permission of Allah swt, but is considered extreme kufr and shirk.

 

Falsehood is so cunning, taking the place of truth and blending in and mixing.

 

I am not declaring takfir on people who choose to abandon Allah swt, or forsake him in calling to him, but i do not see it in any clear hadiths , and see contrary advise, and so declare to the best of my knowledge it is not a belief i find in the sunnah, and so i withhold from it.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Tawheed313

[peace seeker II]

people make it sound like God is somewhere on a cloud and that the ahlulbayt are on a ladder closer, while we are poor folk dangling on the lower echelons or maybe even on the ground or underground. This is a very Freemason way of looking at it, and takes away from the reality that Allah is closer to us than our jugular vein. We don't need anybody to "get" to Allah. Nobody is physically "closer" to Allah than others. Allah is not here or there, Allah is everywhere at once, and nowhere and beyond. So if Allah is already closer to us than we are to ourselves, then we don't need a go-between. Because Allah is closer to us than the ahlulbayt. Allah knows us better, hears us better, and all decisions are purely in His Hands.

 

here the freemason system that governs some peoples' mentality here;

 

 

being "closer" to God does not mean that they are between us and God on an imaginary ladder. It means that Allah chose to make them higher rank than us in the creations. But Allah is not effected or in any way associated to this ladder or hierarchy 

[layman]

The issue in hand is not that muslims did not acknowledge Allah swt is the Rabbil aalamin, the Highest, the Sublime...all Muslim know that.  All of us acknowledge Allah swt through his Names.

 

The call for help to the Prophet or Imams, and if they are physically alive infront of you...than for Bro al-Tawheed313 and Bro Peace Seeker II, this is okay.  When they are not available physically, then this is not okay, and this action is syirik, this call is a dua and dua is only for Allah swt, complicated, freemanson, hierachy....you name it.  

 

 

For us, whether calling for Help from the Prophet or Imams, whether they are alive in front of us OR not, makes no different.  Both calls are call to Allah swt, the same in value.  Because Allah swt makes thing happened, even through the Prophet or Imams.  We believe everything are means to Allah swt.  Even Allah swt Names are mean to reach HIM swt.  We believe that Allah swt Names is with Ahlulbayts.  The same situation was demonstrated when Allah swt created Adam (as), and installed HIS Names in him and Angel did the prostration, except Iblis.  Iblis wanted to serve Allah swt directly and bypassed Adam, and said that that Adam is lesser in superiority.  He failed to see what was installed in Adam.  Adam is the mean to obeying Allah swt.  The prostration to Adam by Angels, means to acknowledge that Allah swt know best.  But Adam is still the means for Allah swt to show his Authority.  Adam is just created being.  The prostration toward Adam is acknowledge Allah swt know best.

 

For us,

 

No one on Earth knows the best on how to acknowledge Allah swt is the Rabb, The Highest, the Sublime EXCEPT Prophet and Ahlulbayt.  Having communication with them  is important (regardless of time constraint, they are in the past and we are at present), because not all secret in knowing Allah swt are revealed in written books.  Majority are hiddened and reserved for Mukmins based on their faith and how close they are with Prophet and Ahlulbayt.

 

The call for help for them are is to be closer to them as they are our Ulil Amr, Wali (as Angels to acknowledge Adam).  To acknowledge that that they are our Ulil Amr (those who have authority on us and our affairs) and Wali, is to have communication with them.  Why would I am deprived to have connection with my Ulil Amr and Wali because they are physically not available.  There are secrets upon secrets that can be passed on to us from them on how to serve Allah swt the best.  The secret of Tauheed is with them.  Muhammad (pbuh) is City of knowledge and Ali (as) is the gate.  Since when that we say...since both are physically death, the City and the gate are "the end".  Movie ended.  Go home.

 

And now there are people who have not seen this communication (perhaps they are spiritually blinded), are telling others we can connect ourselves to Muhammad and Ali and Ahlulbayt because they are dead.  Ulil Amr or our Imams..are always with the Ummah and guiding them to Allah swt.  Don't to supersede them in their roles.  They are with us.

 

Get onto the boat of Ahlulbayt, then you will see Greatness of Allah swt and the real meaning of Tauheed....  How to get onto the boat if the boat is not physically see by the physical eyes.  The eyes of the heart can see it or at least feel it.

 

How many of Shias that make a call for help from Ahlulbayt (as) have abandoned Allah swt, or not knowing the status of Allah swt???? NONE.  Allah swt is beyond description...Allahu akbar.  Even when we say Allahu Akbar...Allah swt is still beyond what we say.  But if we say it together with our Prophet and Imams, the value of saying Allahu Akbar, is the highest.  If we cannot say it together with them, at least, they will say Allahu Akbar on our behalf.  If not, we should work harder to be inside the boat of Ahlulbayt.

 

Layman

Edited June 28, 2015 by layman

[peace seeker II]

 

1 - For us, whether calling for Help from the Prophet or Imams, whether they are alive in front of us OR not, makes no different.  

 

 

2 - How many of Shias that make a call for help from Ahlulbayt (as) have abandoned Allah swt, or not knowing the status of Allah swt???? NONE.  

 

1 -  can you get a single verse and hadith that have the prophet saying that we should make dua to them? or a verse or hadith showing spiritual dua (not mubahila please !!!! ) supplication done to anybody other than God? 

 

2 - here are some examples of mistakes of shias in the past 

 

• Bazighiyya– who believed that Ja'far al-Sadiq was God.
• Dhammiyya– who believed that Ali was God and Muhammad was his appointed Messenger and Prophet.

we also know that Alawites are Shias and some of them believe that God is three .. and Ali is one of them .. 

 

so we have examples of this.

 

please answer # 1 

 

peace seeker II

[muhibb-ali]

(bismillah)

 

By the way, any belief is not acceptable so long as one says 'it is not independent of Allah swt'. Tafweed is also by the power and permission of Allah swt, but is considered extreme kufr and shirk.

 

 

As per the narration, Tafweed which is condemned is believing that actions of AhlulBait (as) are independent of Allah..
 

 

ثم قال : وجئت تسأله عن مقالة المفوضة ، كذبوا، بل قلوبنا أوعية لمشية الله ، فإذا شاء شئنا ، والله يقول :وما تشآؤون إلاأن يشآء الله

 

Imam Hasan Askar (as) said,

 

"You have come to ask about the Mufaw'wiza. They (Mufaw'wiza) have lied. But our hearts are containers of the Will of Allah, so when Allah wills, We will. And Allah has said, "And you will not will, but as Allah Wills" [Quran 76:30]

 

[source: Al-Gaibha - Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 159]

 

What has been narrated to me by Hussein bin Ubaid ullah from Abu Abdullah al Hussein bin Ali, he said I was told by Sheikh Abu ul Qasim Hussin bin Rooh, who said that 

"There was a difference of opinion about Tafweed in our companions etc. So I went to Abu Tahir bin Bilal in his days of steadfastness, and informed him about this. He said: Wait for some days. I went to him again and he narrated a narration with his chain to Imam Abu Abdullah who said:

When Allah decides for something, he presents that to Prophet asws, then Imam Ali asws, and then All Aimmah asws one after another till it reaches the one of Your era, and then it is given to this world. And when Angels decide to raise something to Allah, they present it to the Chief of Your era, then it pases from one to other (Imam) till it reaches Prophet asws. Then it is presented to Allah. So What is revealed from Allah, it is through their hands, and what is raised to Allah, it is through their hands. And they (Aimmah asws) are not free of him even for glimpse of time."

 

[source: Al-Ghayba - Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 387]

Read more narrations here:
http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/Wilayat-of-Imam-is-Wilayat-of-Allah

 

 

Listen to this as well

 

but we don't have record of the prophet or ahlulbayt making dua (supplication asking of dead or martyred people for help spiritually). 

 

 

 

Narrated from Abu Abdillah Imam Jafar Sadiq (as):

 

عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال : إذا أردت زيارة الحسين عليه السلام فزره وأنتَ كَئيبٌ حَزين مَكروبٌ ، شُعثاً مغبراً جائعاً عَطْشاناً ، فإنَّ الحسين قُتِلَ حَزيناً مَكروباً شُعثاً مُغْبراً جائعاً عَطْشاناً ، وسَلْه الحوائج وانصرف عنه ، ولا تتّخِذْه وَطَناً

 

Abu Abdillah [imam Sadiq (as)] said: 

“When you want to go to the Ziyarah of Husain (as), go to his Ziyarah while you are saddened, anguished, grief-stricken, disheveled, covered with dust, hungry and thirsty for verily Husain (as) was killed while he was saddened, anguished, disheveled, covered with dust, hungry and thirsty. And ask him for your needs and then leave. Do not settle in Karbala.

[source: Al-Kafi Vol.4 Pg.587]

 

Following is what we say to the Imam's (as) in this Ziyarat.

 

إني قصدتكم و اعتمدتكم بمسألتي و حاجتي و هي فكاك رقبتي من النار و المقر معكم في دار القرار مع شيعتكم الأبرار و السلام عليكم بما صبرتم فنعم عقبى الدار أنا سائلكم و آملكم فيما إليكم التفويض و عليكم التعويض فبكم يجبر المهيض و يشفى المريض

 

"I seek you, and depend upon you for my questions/issues and my needs and it is to safe my neck from the fire and make me stay with you in the house of award with your Shias. And peace be upon you .. I ask You and hope upon you in that what has been authorized to you and upon you is the compensation as from you and upon you is to cure the patient."

[source: Misbah Al-Mutahajjid, Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 822]

Read more here: http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/asking-help-from-imam

Edited June 29, 2015 by muhibb-ali

[Muslim2010]

 

For us, whether calling for Help from the Prophet or Imams, whether they are alive in front of us OR not, makes no different.  Both calls are call to Allah swt, the same in value.  Because Allah swt makes thing happened, even through the Prophet or Imams.  We believe everything are means to Allah swt.  Even Allah swt Names are mean to reach HIM swt.  We believe that Allah swt Names is with Ahlulbayts.  The same situation was demonstrated when Allah swt created Adam (as), and installed HIS Names in him and Angel did the prostration, except Iblis.  Iblis wanted to serve Allah swt directly and bypassed Adam, and said that that Adam is lesser in superiority.  He failed to see what was installed in Adam.  Adam is the mean to obeying Allah swt.  The prostration to Adam by Angels, means to acknowledge that Allah swt know best.  But Adam is still the means for Allah swt to show his Authority.  Adam is just created being.  The prostration toward Adam is acknowledge Allah swt know best.

 

For us,

 

No one on Earth knows the best on how to acknowledge Allah swt is the Rabb, The Highest, the Sublime EXCEPT Prophet and Ahlulbayt.  Having communication with them  is important (regardless of time constraint, they are in the past and we are at present), because not all secret in knowing Allah swt are revealed in written books.  Majority are hiddened and reserved for Mukmins based on their faith and how close they are with Prophet and Ahlulbayt.

 

The call for help for them are is to be closer to them as they are our Ulil Amr, Wali (as Angels to acknowledge Adam).  To acknowledge that that they are our Ulil Amr (those who have authority on us and our affairs) and Wali, is to have communication with them.  Why would I am deprived to have connection with my Ulil Amr and Wali because they are physically not available.  There are secrets upon secrets that can be passed on to us from them on how to serve Allah swt the best.  The secret of Tauheed is with them.  Muhammad (pbuh) is City of knowledge and Ali (as) is the gate.  Since when that we say...since both are physically death, the City and the gate are "the end".  Movie ended.  Go home.

 

And now there are people who have not seen this communication (perhaps they are spiritually blinded), are telling others we can connect ourselves to Muhammad and Ali and Ahlulbayt because they are dead.  Ulil Amr or our Imams..are always with the Ummah and guiding them to Allah swt.  Don't to supersede them in their roles.  They are with us.

 

Get onto the boat of Ahlulbayt, then you will see Greatness of Allah swt and the real meaning of Tauheed....  How to get onto the boat if the boat is not physically see by the physical eyes.  The eyes of the heart can see it or at least feel it.

 

How many of Shias that make a call for help from Ahlulbayt (as) have abandoned Allah swt, or not knowing the status of Allah swt???? NONE.  Allah swt is beyond description...Allahu akbar.  Even when we say Allahu Akbar...Allah swt is still beyond what we say.  But if we say it together with our Prophet and Imams, the value of saying Allahu Akbar, is the highest.  If we cannot say it together with them, at least, they will say Allahu Akbar on our behalf.  If not, we should work harder to be inside the boat of Ahlulbayt.

 

Layman

 

Marvelous and wonderful explanation of the facts that i have  quoted from the verses of quran as given in post no 84. 

 

May Allah keep all of us with the Prophet and Ahl albayat as in this world and thereafter.

 

Wassalam

Edited June 29, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

(bismillah)

 

 

As per the narration, Tafweed which is condemned is believing that actions of AhlulBait (as) are independent of Allah..

 

 

ثم قال : وجئت تسأله عن مقالة المفوضة ، كذبوا، بل قلوبنا أوعية لمشية الله ، فإذا شاء شئنا ، والله يقول :وما تشآؤون إلاأن يشآء الله

 

Imam Hasan Askar (as) said,

 

"You have come to ask about the Mufaw'wiza. They (Mufaw'wiza) have lied. But our hearts are containers of the Will of Allah, so when Allah wills, We will. And Allah has said, "And you will not will, but as Allah Wills" [Quran 76:30]

 

[source: Al-Gaibha - Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 159]

 

What has been narrated to me by Hussein bin Ubaid ullah from Abu Abdullah al Hussein bin Ali, he said I was told by Sheikh Abu ul Qasim Hussin bin Rooh, who said that 

"There was a difference of opinion about Tafweed in our companions etc. So I went to Abu Tahir bin Bilal in his days of steadfastness, and informed him about this. He said: Wait for some days. I went to him again and he narrated a narration with his chain to Imam Abu Abdullah who said:

When Allah decides for something, he presents that to Prophet asws, then Imam Ali asws, and then All Aimmah asws one after another till it reaches the one of Your era, and then it is given to this world. And when Angels decide to raise something to Allah, they present it to the Chief of Your era, then it pases from one to other (Imam) till it reaches Prophet asws. Then it is presented to Allah. So What is revealed from Allah, it is through their hands, and what is raised to Allah, it is through their hands. And they (Aimmah asws) are not free of him even for glimpse of time."

 

[source: Al-Ghayba - Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 387]

Read more narrations here:

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/Wilayat-of-Imam-is-Wilayat-of-Allah

 

 

Listen to this as well

 

 

 

 

Narrated from Abu Abdillah Imam Jafar Sadiq (as):

 

عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال : إذا أردت زيارة الحسين عليه السلام فزره وأنتَ كَئيبٌ حَزين مَكروبٌ ، شُعثاً مغبراً جائعاً عَطْشاناً ، فإنَّ الحسين قُتِلَ حَزيناً مَكروباً شُعثاً مُغْبراً جائعاً عَطْشاناً ، وسَلْه الحوائج وانصرف عنه ، ولا تتّخِذْه وَطَناً

 

Abu Abdillah [imam Sadiq (as)] said: 

“When you want to go to the Ziyarah of Husain (as), go to his Ziyarah while you are saddened, anguished, grief-stricken, disheveled, covered with dust, hungry and thirsty for verily Husain (as) was killed while he was saddened, anguished, disheveled, covered with dust, hungry and thirsty. And ask him for your needs and then leave. Do not settle in Karbala.

[source: Al-Kafi Vol.4 Pg.587]

 

Following is what we say to the Imam's (as) in this Ziyarat.

 

إني قصدتكم و اعتمدتكم بمسألتي و حاجتي و هي فكاك رقبتي من النار و المقر معكم في دار القرار مع شيعتكم الأبرار و السلام عليكم بما صبرتم فنعم عقبى الدار أنا سائلكم و آملكم فيما إليكم التفويض و عليكم التعويض فبكم يجبر المهيض و يشفى المريض

 

"I seek you, and depend upon you for my questions/issues and my needs and it is to safe my neck from the fire and make me stay with you in the house of award with your Shias. And peace be upon you .. I ask You and hope upon you in that what has been authorized to you and upon you is the compensation as from you and upon you is to cure the patient."

[source: Misbah Al-Mutahajjid, Sheikh Toosi, Pg. 822]

Read more here: http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/asking-help-from-imam

 

this ziara has already been shown to be untrustworthy earlier, and it's rather an exception that contradicts all other quran and hadiths .. if you chose to follow it, then go ahead. i won't ever do that. and that other hadith that claims every decision of Allah is through the hands of prophets and stuff, that is totally absurd in my eyes. but go ahead if you want

[Ethics]

Interesting very interesting . I see double standards. Coming from the same guy who quotes hadiths regardless of their grading you are now arguing about grading.. Hmmm I wonder

[peace seeker II]

Interesting very interesting . I see double standards. Coming from the same guy who quotes hadiths regardless of their grading you are now arguing about grading.. Hmmm I wonder

 

feel free to find mistakes in the grading of my hadiths

[guest050817]

Al-Quran: "O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means [of nearness] to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed."

 

Kitab al kafi: (Book of Dua, H3052, CH1,H6):

"You must plead before Allah swt for help ; you can not seek nearness to Allah swt by any means better than pleading before him for help"

 

Saheeh

[Al-Hussayni]

^

Brother tawheed, the hadeeth is only one of the ahadith in regards to this. It is not the only way for seeking nearness to Allah SWT. The other means do also include seeking waseelah through ahlulbayt (as), salah, sawm, other acts of obligations, maintaining piety etc.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Hussainiyat Zindabad