Do Shia Give Divine Attributes To The Imams?

[The Green Knight]

Ya Qahir al Uduwwi Ya Waali al Wali

Ya Mazhar Al Ajayeb Ya Murtaza Ali

[coldcow]

I wonder if Imam Ali a.s knows or knew people would seek protection from him rather than the lord he himself sought protection from. And i know some people claim seeking protection from him is the same as seeking protection from Allah swt, but i just do not buy into that logic.

Very similarly, I wonder if Isa (AS) knew people would pray to him instead of praying to Allah.

 

If some shias really pray to Imam Ali for help, then they have no room to criticize Christians for praying to Jesus (AS).  While not exactly the same thing, it's pretty darn close.

[Abdul Majid]

Very similarly, I wonder if Isa (as) knew people would pray to him instead of praying to Allah.

 

If some shias really pray to Imam Ali for help, then they have no room to criticize Christians for praying to Jesus (as).  While not exactly the same thing, it's pretty darn close.

 

Christians are criticized for worshipping Jesus a.s. and believing that he a.s. is God.

[laithAlIRAQI]

I don't follow. Are you saying he's not dead? That he was never assasinated? That he was never buried in the ground? That he isn't waiting for judgement day like the rest of everyone else in history that has died?

here u go

2:154

Sahih International

And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.

[Mirkhalil]

We believe that Imams (AS), despite having lofty divine positions, were still God's servants and that they had all of these virtues, acts of miraculous nature and positions by God's permission and His support.

They depend on God in their essence as they depend on God in their attributes and are not independent of Him. Therefore proving these capabilities (these attributes) for them is not in contradiction with belief in divine unity; rather it is affirmation of divine unity.

In fact the Imams' (AS) enemies exploited exaggerated beliefs about Imams (AS) and also made every effort to forge traditions to condemn their enemies in a bid to distort the real image of Shiites and their Imams (AS).

[Chaotic Muslem]

We believe that Imams (AS), despite having lofty divine positions, were still God's servants and that they had all of these virtues, acts of miraculous nature and positions by God's permission and His support.

They depend on God in their essence as they depend on God in their attributes and are not independent of Him. Therefore proving these capabilities (these attributes) for them is not in contradiction with belief in divine unity; rather it is affirmation of divine unity.

In fact the Imams' (AS) enemies exploited exaggerated beliefs about Imams (AS) and also made every effort to forge traditions to condemn their enemies in a bid to distort the real image of Shiites and their Imams (AS).

What do you mean by divine unity?

[Mirkhalil]

What do you mean by divine unity?

 

I mean monotheism by Divine unity. If we believe in these attributes for Imams dependent of Him, it doesn't cause to polytheism.

[Sumerian]

Already mentioned in post no. 20  as Hadith Thaqlayn, as quran and ahl albayat are non-separable.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Brother the Ahlulbayt (as) know the Holy Qur'an more than us, when they have interpreted the verses for us, clearly, who are we to make an interpretation over them, in particular using things like numerology?

[The Green Knight]

I thought numerical sciences were introduced in the middle east by the Imams and their students.

[Sumerian]

I thought numerical sciences were introduced in the middle east by the Imams and their students.

 

That doesn't mean we interpret the Holy Qur'an using numerology after the interpretation has been given.

[Muslim2010]

Brother the Ahlulbayt (as) know the Holy Qur'an more than us, when they have interpreted the verses for us, clearly, who are we to make an interpretation over them, in particular using things like numerology?

 

Brother does Quran instruct us not to think on the verses of quran to get understanding of verses. like verse 38:29.

How does it prevent to use knowledge including number sciences for further understanding? Is the Quran not a database of 114 Suras and with different number of verses in each sura, with maximum 286 verses in sura al-baqra and minimum number of verses 3 like in sura al-asr? And this Quran and ahl-albayat are non-separable.

 

Does it not force us to think on its numerical miracles as well even when we are living in the age of computers? Should we consider it just made of limited upto the arabic language alone? Are the sciences not mentioned including numbers in this Quran deriving their principles as outlined in this Quran?

 

Some people try to consider it that thinking on the verses of Quran is Qiyas, see post no. 22 which itself is against the verses of quran (like 38:29 and similar verses).

 

Wassalam

Edited June 24, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

Dear brother,

 

I am making a very important point here. If you lived in Egypt, and the imam a.s made you a govener (and even wrote you letters), and you were in dire need at the moment, would you cry out to Allah swt to help you, or cry out to Imam Ali a.s to help you in that immediate moment?

 

It has little to do with our holy imams a.s using the restroom. I am trying to emphasize they were humans like us, with the same biological functions - not immortal, omnipotent, overarching beings.

 

Imagine if you cried 'Ya Ali madad' to Imam Ali a.s while he was showering or eating, and you were in egypt, if he was alive? Can you not see, dear brother, with the utmost respect how illogical a thing to do that would be ?

 

salam, actually this example already happened, when Imam Ali commissioned Malik al Ashtar to govern Egypt. Of course he told him to always seek help from Allah, and never asked him to ask him for help, or the likes.

 

the problem is that some people mix up the names al-Ali and Ali bin abi Talib

 

when they way Ya Ali .. they mean Ali bin Abi Talib, even though they should mean al-Ali .. who is the protector, creator, sustainer and God of Ali bin Abi Talib.

here u go

2:154

Sahih International

And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.

 

we have to be fair and see how we can use these verses to prove our points. Can we say that them being "alive" means they can give us sustenance or that they are with us even? according to this verse they are with their Lord .. receiving sustenance from Him. They are receiving, and not giving. The verse does not say : "they are with you and hear your every prayer and help you"

 

And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision, 3:169

Ya Allah

:)

[kamyar]

you're basically disobeying Allah by saying imam Ali (as) is dead.

 

I wonder why those who say Ahlulbayt are dead and can't hear, they themselves recite " السلام علیک ایها النبی: Salaam to you, O nabi" in their salahs. 

 

I guess the links below may be useful, insha'Allah:

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/imam-all-hearing-and-seeing

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/can-imam-s-as-create-give-sustenance

[Abdul Majid]

I wonder why those who say Ahlulbayt are dead and can't hear, they themselves recite " السلام علیک ایها النبی: Salaam to you, O nabi" in their salahs. 

 

I guess the links below may be useful, insha'Allah:

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/imam-all-hearing-and-seeing

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/can-imam-s-as-create-give-sustenance

 

Wonderful links, jazak'Allah khair

[Ethics]

Dead can hear:

Quran mentions the Prophet Salih's speech to the dead. This speech was made after his nation had been destroyed.

[Yusufali 7:77] Then they ham-strung the she camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying: "O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art a messenger (of Allah)!"

[Yusufali 7:78] So the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes in the morning!

[Yusufali 7:79] So Salih left them, saying: "O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!"

[Yusufali 7:91] But the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes before the morning!

[Yusufali 7:92] The men who reject Shu'aib became as if they had never been in the homes where they had flourished: the men who rejected Shu'aib - it was they who were ruined!

[Yusufali 7:93] So Shu'aib left them, saying:"O my people! I did indeed convey to you the messages for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but how shall I lament over a people who refuse to believe!"

 

Quran Confirms that Rasool Allah [saww] is seeing our actions

There is a verse in the Holy Quran, which confirms that Rasool Allah [saww] is Seeing our Actions.

[Yusufali 9:94] ... It is your actions that Allah and His Messenger will observe: in the end will ye be brought back to Him Who knoweth what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."

And another verse of the Holy Quran confirms that not only Rasool Allah [saww], but also the Momineen (believers) are also seeing our actions.

[Yusufali 9:105] And say: "Work (righteousness): Soon will Allah observe your work, and His Messenger, and the Believers: Soon will ye be brought back to the knower of what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did
 

[peace seeker II]

I wonder why those who say Ahlulbayt are dead and can't hear, they themselves recite " السلام علیک ایها النبی: Salaam to you, O nabi" in their salahs. 

 

I guess the links below may be useful, insha'Allah:

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/imam-all-hearing-and-seeing

 

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/can-imam-s-as-create-give-sustenance

 

we can't take for granted that the salams reach them just like we can't take for granted our prayers are accepted by Allah. After all it is Allah who carries the salams to the prophet if He choses to.

 

and the quran verses that talk about the prophet being exposed to our deeds, this is in future tense, and rather in reference to judgment day. That's why the verses talk about when we are returned to our Lord, it does not talk about present tense, nor does it say anything about the prophet helping us.

 

the prophet helps us by his message .. he is "merely a messenger" as is written in quran. There is no talk about the prophet being responsible for hearing our prayers, nor for answering our duas, and helping us out. But people like to ignore this sometimes. 

[guest050817]

Whether they are alive or can hear ones prayer, i have a question:

 

I , with the utmost respect only have a question:

 

If during the time of Imam Ali a.s he was in Kufa, and you in egypt, and you needed immediate help, would you call out to Allah swt, or Ali a.s?

 

If you called out to him, when he was alive, what if he was showering, eating, grooming his beard?

 

Ofcourse he is purified, ofcourse he is the imam a.s, ofcourse he is among the greatest of creations, but this does not answer the question, with due respect. They stil fell ill, ate, had to have the same biological functions, were limited, were knowledgable more than any other being yet were ignorant of many things (such as grains of sand, stars in the sky and so on)

 

Is it not more logical to start dua by taking the name of Allah swt, as we must do for anything ? And then ask Allah swt for the sake of Ali a.s?

[peace seeker II]

salam

 

i would like to add that the people who use verse 9:59 to claim that all sustenance comes through the prophet should consider this:

 

And among them are some who criticize you concerning the [distribution of] charities (sadaqa). If they are given from them, they approve; but if they are not given from them, at once they become angry. 9:58

 

If only they had been satisfied with what Allah and His Messenger gave them and said, "Sufficient for us is Allah ; Allah will give us of His bounty, and [so will] His Messenger; indeed, we are desirous toward Allah ," [it would have been better for them]. 9:59

 

Zakah expenditures are only for the poor and for the needy and for those employed to collect [zakah] and for bringing hearts together [for Islam] and for freeing captives [or slaves] and for those in debt and for the cause of Allah and for the [stranded] traveler - an obligation [imposed] by Allah . And Allah is Knowing and Wise.9:60

 

we all know that after each battle there were issues with the prophet giving booties to some and not the other. At the same time the prophet gave lots of charity to people who wanted more. 

 

The context here is very important .. Of course any one of us is capable of delivering rizq to others, but does that mean they should pray to us? no! does it mean that people receiving rizq from us via charity should be thankful to us and God? yes! there is a big difference. These verses do not prove in any way that Allah wants us to ask of others for our rizq in dua .. quite the opposite, it encourages us to be desirous toward Allah ..

[Shamati]

They're still Allah (SWT)'s attributes. The Imams (as) just reflect His attributes thru' their purity. We, because of our sins, can't reflect Allah(SWT)'s attributes. But when you purify the heart, it acts as a mirror reflecting the constantly emanating attributes of God. They were always there, it's just that ordinary folks is on another frequency. Because the Imam's (as) were inerrant, they could always reflect the, but they are still wholly God's.

[Muslim2010]

 

and the quran verses that talk about the prophet being exposed to our deeds, this is in future tense, and rather in reference to judgment day. That's why the verses talk about when we are returned to our Lord, it does not talk about present tense, nor does it say anything about the prophet helping us.

 

Brother i quote one verse from quran which is in future tense but we accept its applicability:

 

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

Shakir

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; (17:71)

 

This verse is in future tense, as per your argument that the prophet and imams will see the deeds at the day of judgment and not presently, then the people will be called only with their imams at the day of judgment, and there will be no imam present with us till the day of judgment. 

 

But the things are not the same as per our thinking we do have hadith for the presence of 12th imam who is in ghayb by our eyes, yet we accept the presence with the applicability of the verse 17:71 at present. Similarly as per hadith the imams are the believers mentioned in this verse (9:105). Thus it clearly concludes they are present to see our deeds, Also the prophet and imams are witness of our deeds as per other verses, if they are not seeing our deeds then what witness they can make?

 

Regards

Edited June 25, 2015 by skamran110

[Abdul Majid]

and the quran verses that talk about the prophet being exposed to our deeds, this is in future tense, and rather in reference to judgment day. That's why the verses talk about when we are returned to our Lord, it does not talk about present tense, nor does it say anything about the prophet helping us.

 

So Allah s.w.t. also sees our deeds in future (judgement day) not now, because the verse says:

 

وَقُلِ اعْمَلُوا فَسَيَرَ‌ى اللَّـهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَ‌سُولُهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ

 

And say, "Do [as you will], for Allah s.w.t. will see your deeds, and [so, will] His Messenger and the believers.

Please take a look at authentic ahadith on this verse. I hope they could help us understand Quran better.

 

 

If during the time of Imam Ali a.s he was in Kufa, and you in egypt, and you needed immediate help, would you call out to Allah swt, or Ali a.s?

 

If you called out to him, when he was alive, what if he was showering, eating, grooming his beard?

 

As I asked you before, please don't compare our Imams (as) to us.

Eating (or doing other things) does not prevent them  (as) from resolving other things in the universe.

 

Now, I have a question for you. Who buried the holy body of Imam Hussain (a.s.)? Wasn't Imam Ali ibn Hussain a.s. chained on the way to Damascus at the time?

How about the holy body of Imam al-Reda (a.s.)? Who buried his (a.s.) holy body? Wasn't Imam Muhammad ibn Ali a.s. in Medina at the time?

Edited June 25, 2015 by Abdul Majid

[Chaotic Muslem]

They're still Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì's attributes. The Imams (as) just reflect His attributes thru' their purity. We, because of our sins, can't reflect Allah(SWT)'s attributes. But when you purify the heart, it acts as a mirror reflecting the constantly emanating attributes of God. They were always there, it's just that ordinary folks is on another frequency. Because the Imam's (as) were inerrant, they could always reflect the, but they are still wholly God's.

There is a hadith تخلقوا بأخلاق الله

Which roughly translates to make the attributes of Allah your attributes. An example of this is being merciful, forgiving , generous etc.

Now, no one will object on these. Also, no one will object on the quranic verse speaking about the prophet

و ما رميت إذ رميت و لكن الله رمى

When you threw your arrow, you didn't threw it but Allah did.

And the verse

أن الذين يبايعونك تحت الشجرة إنما يبايعون الله يد الله فوق أيديهم

Those who pay you allegiance under the tree they are but paying allegiance to Allah, Allah's hand is above theirs.

These are not calling for holul nor incarnation nor any other deviant belief . And Muslims accepts them.

When people object on divine attributes, I think they object on 2 different levels:

True ghulow, like saying prophet is not human or prophet is incarnation to god or imams are independent from Allah or claiming things that are not in a book or hadith

The other level of objection is objection on imams having what's referred to as super natural abilities. Well I think super natural abilities is laughable way to explain things. In Islam we call it karamat and miracles.

An example of these objections is objecting on imam ability of tay alardh .

A harder example to accept is an imam ability to communicate with us through zeyarah or calling upon them for help. They , those who object, say that these are reserved for Allah and noon should have such ability or permission.

I believe the op meant to discuss the likes of the last example or the first objection ( true gholow).

At any rate, ahlulbayt don't have divine attributes on their own, they are humans and servants of Allah and this is the most honorable description of them.

[peace seeker II]

Brother i quote one verse from quran which is in future tense but we accept its applicability:

 

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

Shakir

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; (17:71)

 

This verse is in future tense, as per your argument that the prophet and imams will see the deeds at the day of judgment and not presently, then the people will be called only with their imams at the day of judgment, and there will be no imam present with us till the day of judgment. 

 

But the things are not the same as per our thinking we do have hadith for the presence of 12th imam who is in ghayb by our eyes, yet we accept the presence with the applicability of the verse 17:71 at present. Similarly as per hadith the imams are the believers mentioned in this verse (9:105). Thus it clearly concludes they are present to see our deeds, Also the prophet and imams are witness of our deeds as per other verses, if they are not seeing our deeds then what witness they can make?

 

Regards

 

Brother, the verse talks about people being grouped with their leaders, and this does not just include the 12th imam, it also includes every other leader, and sub-leader ..

 

And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped. 28:41

 

the verse does not indicate that people who are imams are sharing the names of Allah as al Samia (the hearing) of duas, nor al-Razaq (giver of sustenance), nor al-Mu'min (granter of safety), al-Alim (the seer), etc etc. Thy can see on a limited scale just like us humans, and there is no evidence that they can see everything, or hear everything, or hear our duas, .. supplications .. , as is claimed by some.

 

Just because every human has an Imam, does not mean that this Imam hears all and sees all, just like Allah. That's why clearly in the Quran we have verses talking about this:

 

And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me.

 

but not the same being said about any "Imam" or "Prophet" or "Messenger".

Regards

So Allah s.w.t. also sees our deeds in future (judgement day) not now, because the verse says:

 

وَقُلِ اعْمَلُوا فَسَيَرَ‌ى اللَّـهُ عَمَلَكُمْ وَرَ‌سُولُهُ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ

 

And say, "Do [as you will], for Allah s.w.t. will see your deeds, and [so, will] His Messenger and the believers.

Please take a look at authentic ahadith on this verse. I hope they could help us understand Quran better.

 

 

 

As I asked you before, please don't compare our Imams (as) to us.

Eating (or doing other things) does not prevent them  (as) from resolving other things in the universe.

 

Now, I have a question for you. Who buried the holy body of Imam Hussain (a.s.)? Wasn't Imam Ali ibn Hussain a.s. chained on the way to Damascus at the time?

How about the holy body of Imam al-Reda (a.s.)? Who buried his (a.s.) holy body? Wasn't Imam Muhammad ibn Ali a.s. in Medina at the time?

 

you are comparing Allah to the prophet because they occur in the same sentence. Yet, ironically you say we should not compare ourselves to our leaders. 

 

 

here is a hadith that i believe explains it quite nicely:

 

H 322, Ch. 17, h 2    (Al-Kafi Vol.1)

 

It is narrated from Ali ibn Muhammad, in a mursal manner, from abu al-Hassan al-Rida (a.s.) who has said the following to one of his followers.

 

 

Allah is called All-knowing because He is not ignorant of anything. Thus, the Creator and created are both called as having knowledge but the meaning is different as you may have noticed.

Our Lord is called All-hearing but it is not through the perforated piece and with sound so He would hear with it but would not see with it, which is the case with us. We do not see with what we hear but Allah has told us that from Him nothing of the sounds is hidden. His hearing is not in the way we are called as hearing people. We are called as hearing but the meaning is different. In the same way is seeing not that He sees through a hole as we do and can not use it for other uses. Allah sees but not by looking to an object. We also are called as seeing but the meaning is different. 

 

obviously, the "seeing" of Allah can not be compared to the "seeing" of any creature, and i believe or hope that most anybody here can agree with that.

 

if you look at an authentic hadith on the verse above, it will surely not say that anybody shares in Allah's Names, nor that we should make dua to others than Allah.

Allah and prophet are mentioned together in the Quran various times. This does not mean we get the green light to compare them, or even say that they share anything ( that prophet is a shareek or partner .. that would be shirk according to the meaning of the word )

 

anybody who says that Allah has partners / shuraka .. believes in shirk obviously..

 

Allah has no partners, Allah is not comparable, Allah is One … even if others are mentioned in the same sentence in the Quran.

 

The prophet are comparable (as they are in degrees .. example 7th heaven vs. 7th hell for hypocrites) .. that is proof clear proof from quran, about which there is no doubt.

And for all are degrees from what they have done. And your Lord is not unaware of what they do. 6:132

 

degrees or daragaat in Arabic, can be compared to each other. Only Allah can not be compared. Same goes with our sight and hearing and abilities: they can all be compared to the prophets and imams. But they can not be compared to the vision, hearing nor capability of the One. Because Allah is beyond degrees (Rafia el daragat 40:15) .. He created the degrees to start with, which all prophets, imams, humans and creations are part of.

[Abdul Majid]

obviously, the "seeing" of Allah can not be compared to the "seeing" of any creature, and i believe or hope that most anybody here can agree with that.

 

I absolutely agree. I don't compare Allah s.w.t. to anyone. The "seeing" of Allah s.w.t. cannot be compared to the "seeing" of any creature.

Now, can Allah s.w.t. give his Prophet s.a.w.a. the ability to hear or see what other people say or do?

From the clear translation of the verse above and related ahadith I understand that not only Allah s.w.t. can, but also He s.w.t. has done so.

I believe that whatever I do is being shown to the Prophet s.a.w.a. and ahlulbayt a.s. and I believe if I say salaam they hear my salaam.

You don't believe so? No problem at all.

لکم دینکم و لی دین

[peace seeker II]

If so, doesn't that go against the Quran? 

 

H 229, Ch. 5, h 3 (all from Al-Kafi Vol. 1)

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from ‘Abbass al-Ma‘ruf from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn abu Najran who has the following. I wrote or said to Imam abu Ja‘far 'Abdallah (a.s.), "May Allah take my soul in your service. Do we worship the Beneficent, the Merciful, the One who is One only and Self-sufficient?" The Imam then said, "Whoever worships the names without the meaning for which they stand he has become a polytheist and has denied the existence of Allah and has worshipped nothing. You must worship Allah who is the One and only One, the Self-sufficient, Who is the meaning for these names but not these names. The names are attributes that He has said are of His attributes." 

 

H 264, Ch. 10, h 1

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from al-‘Abbass ibn Ma‘ruf from ibn abu Najran from Hammad ibn ‘Uthman from Abd al-Rahim ibn ‘Utayk al-Qusayr who has said the following.

"I wrote through ‘Abdal Malik ibn ’a‘yan to Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.). "In Iraq there are people who attribute to Allah forms and lines. If you consider it proper, may Allah take my soul in your service, please write for me the correct belief in the issue of the Oneness of Allah."

The Imam wrote for me, "May Allah grant you blessings. You have asked about the Oneness of Allah and the belief of the group before you. Exalted is Allah, to Who nothing is similar. He is All-hearing and All-seeing. Allah is above what certain people attribute to Him and analogize Him with His creatures and the lies of those who speak lies about Him. Note that the true doctrine in the Oneness of Allah is what is revealed in the Quran in about the attributes of Allah, the Almighty, the Exalted. Keep away from the belief in Allah, the Most High, all ideas that amount to ignoring His existence altogether and those that amount to analogizing Him with the creatures. Neither should His existence be negated nor should He be considered similar to anything. He, Allah, the Most High exists. Exalted is He and far above what is falsely attributed to Him. Do not exceed the limits of the Quran lest you go astray after the clear presentation of Truth." 

 

H 313, Ch. 16, h 4

Ahmad ibn Idris has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan ibn Yahya from Fudayl ibn ‘Uthman from ibn abu Ya‘fur who has said the following.

"I asked abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), about the words of Allah, The Majestic, the Glorious, ‘He (Allah) is the first and the last.’ (57:3) We have understood His being the first but explain for us the meaning of His being the last." The Imam said, "There is nothing in the universe, but that is subject to annihilation, alteration, change, decay, transition from one color to another, from one shape to another and from one quality to another. They increase, decrease and change from decrease to increase, except He, Who is the Lord of the worlds. He alone is eternal and in one state. He is the first, before every thing and the last eternally. His attributes and names do not change as they do in the case of others. A man at one time is dust, at other

time flesh and blood, then turns into decaying bones and finally becomes dust. A piece of date at one time is raw, at another time ripe, mature and then it dries up. With every change, the names and attributes also change. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious is different from all such things." 

 

 

H 315, Ch. 16, h 6

Muhammad ibn abu ‘Abdallah in a marfu‘ manner, has narrated from abu Hashim al-Ja‘fari who has said the following.

"I was in the company of abu Ja'far al-Thani, the 2nd (a.s.), when a person asked him, "The names and attributes of the Lord, the Most Holy, the Most High, mentioned in His book (the Holy Quran) are they He Himself?" The Imam replied, "Your question has two aspects. If you say that they are His Own Self, meaning that He has plurality and multiplicity, then Allah is far exalted from being as such. If you mean that names and attributes of Allah had eternally been there, this also has a double meaning. (Firstly) if you mean, that names and attributes have eternally been in the knowledge of Allah and He eternally deserved them, it is true and quite right. If you mean that the letters, pictures, spellings and syllables of names and attributes were eternal, then we seek refuge from Him against such belief. Allah existed but there were no creatures. He created names and attributes as a means between His Own-self and the creatures. Through these means they pray to Him and ask Him for help and names are the means to speak of Him. Allah existed without being mentioned. The One mentioned through names is Allah the eternal, Who will be there eternally. Names and attributes are created their meaning and what they indicate is Allah, Who is far above plurality and combination, which happens only to the moving things. You can not say that Allah is compiled. He is a great deal or very little. He His Own-self is eternal. What is other than the Only One, it is divisible. Allah is not divisible. Not even in one’s imaginations He can be though of as more or less. Every divisible or being thought of as less or more, in one’s

imagination, is created which is the sign of the existence of the Creator. When you say Allah has power you in reality say that He does not become frustrated due to weakness. In this way you negate weakness from Him and consider it other than Him. The same is the meaning of your saying that He is all knowing. With this, you negate ignorance from Him and have considered it other than Him. When Allah will destroy all things the form, spelling and syllables will all be destroyed. Allah is and will eternally be there."

The man then said, "Why do we call our Lord All-hearing? The Imam said, "Because every thing that can be heard is not hidden from Him. We do not ascribe to Him the hearing ability that exists in the heads. In the same way we call Him All-seeing. It is because every thing that can be seen like colors or individuals etc., are not hidden from Him. We do not call Him All- seeing because of blinking eye. In the same way we call Him Subtle because of His knowledge of delicate things such as insects, etc., or even more delicate things. (It is because of His knowledge of) that, wherefrom such things emerge and of the intelligence, desires for reproduction, compassion for their offspring, their guarding each other, their carrying food and drink to their offspring in the mountains, wilderness, valleys and desolate places. From this we know that their Creator is Subtle but without the condition of subtlety. Such conditions are for the creatures, who are conditioned with conditions.

We also call our Lord powerful but not because of the aggressiveness that the creatures display. If so, there a similarity would have existed as well as degrees of decrease that would involve increases. Whatever would decrease is not eternal and is weak. To our Lord, the Most Holy, the Most High, no one is similar, no contrary, no resemblance, no conditions, no end and no seeing of eyes. It is unlawful for the hearts to analogize Him. It is unlawful for the Awham (intuitive power) to limit Him. It is unlawful for one’s consciousness to contain Him. He is far Glorious and Majestic and above coming within the reach of the means of His creatures or have the sings of His servants. He is High and Great and far above such matters." 

 

in other words: Allahu Akbar :)

I absolutely agree. I don't compare Allah s.w.t. to anyone. The "seeing" of Allah s.w.t. cannot be compared to the "seeing" of any creature.

Now, can Allah s.w.t. give his Prophet s.a.w.a. the ability to hear or see what other people say or do?

From the clear translation of the verse above and related ahadith I understand that not only Allah s.w.t. can, but also He s.w.t. has done so.

I believe that whatever I do is being shown to the Prophet s.a.w.a. and ahlulbayt a.s. and I believe if I say salaam they hear my salaam.

You don't believe so? No problem at all.

 

 

 

i'm glad you agree to that alhmdulilah!

 

of course all sight and all power and all change is from Allah. What you see on the screen right now is from Allah, yet it is limited. If you agree to what you claim to agree, then you would agree also that whatever the prophet will see of our deeds in judgment day will not be the same or even comparable to what Allah sees. You will agree that Allah truly sees everything, but the prophet won't see everything. Because if you say that the prophet sees as much as God does, then i'm sure you would not agree with that. Not only is it not as much, but it's not even comparable. 

 

 

 

I believe that whatever I do is being shown to the Prophet s.a.w.a. and ahlulbayt a.s. and I believe if I say salaam they hear my salaam.

 

 

that statement would contradict what you agreed to above. because Allah does not have partners in seeing whatever (aka everything) we do. If you say Allah has a partner / shareek in sight, then that's shirk isn't it? just simple plain logic. And that is without pointing fingers and labeling you, just using what you say yourself in context to language. Also, if you assume that each time you say salaam to the prophet, that it reaches the prophet, then Omar , Abu Bakr etc might have assumed the same thing. They also sent 'salaam' to the prophet and his household each time they prayed. Did it reach them? i think as shias we know the answer .. if you believe in what you just said, that people only hear as much as Allah wants them to, then you would agree to the fact that the salaam will only reach the person on the other end if Allah so wills it .. if in sha Allah .. it's not independent of Allah's will. Allah decides if the salaams or anything else is heard, and He can not be compared to anyone.

 

 

 

لکم دینکم و لی دین

 

interesting you use a verse from surat kafirun when talking to me. Do you consider me a kafir by any chance? is it worthy of takfir and considering me a non-muslim because i believe in ultimate oneness of Allah, and His divineness? Coming from you, i can almost assume it was intentional. And perhaps you are right. maybe we truly will be from different religions in judgment day: those who call upon others than Allah, and compare Allah to creatures, while i might be with the ones who don't. But then again i wouldn't be so sure of my own fate to let that seep into todays argument. I would not do takfir against fellow muslims myself, but feel free to do so. But just for fun, let me ask you this: what exactly is your religion ( دین ) called? and what about mine?

( maybe Kamyar can help answer the question on the takfir as you liked the post )

[Abdul Majid]

i'm glad you agree to that alhmdulilah!

that statement would contradict what you agreed to above. because Allah does not have partners in seeing whatever (aka everything) we do. If you say Allah has a partner / shareek in sight, then that's shirk isn't it? just simple plain logic.

 

Alhamdolillah you're glad.

 

When I talk, I hear my voice. Allah s.w.t. also hears my voice. Does this mean that Allah s.w.t. has a partner?

Of course not! These are two different types of hearing. Plus me being able to hear my own voice is Allah's s.w.t. gift.

 

From Greater Sins - Volume 1 (Ayatullah Sayyid Abdul Husayn Dastghaib Shirazi):

 

This concept must be clearly distinguished from the fact that Allah, the Almighty and the Exalted has applied some of His names to His creatures, and although the names are common to both the Creator and the created, the connotation is quite different; For example Zaid has knowledge, so the name “one who knows” is common to both the creator and the created. But in Zaid’s case, it is implicit that this quality in a limited measure was acquired by him (by Allah (s.w.t.)’s Grace) at a certain stage prior to which he did not have it; and it is also possible that he may also lose this quality at a later stage, but for Allah (s.w.t.) this attribute signifies that He is the knower of all things, past, present and future. He knows what is in the Heavens and the Earth and not an atom weight, or less than that or greater escapes Him. His knowledge is all encompassing. If we consider the Attributes of Allah (s.w.t.) as being qualities independent of Allah (s.w.t.) as we know them to be with His creatures, then we have committed Shirk. Accordingly the belief of the Ashairas is absolutely false.

 ...

 

To consider all the good qualities of the created to be from Allah (s.w.t.), the creator, is true Tawhid. It is our belief that all the qualities possessed by the Prophets and the Imams (a.s.) were given to them by Allah (s.w.t.)’s Grace. They did not come to acquire any of these qualities on their own. Rather Allah (s.w.t.) bestowed upon them superior knowledge, character, power and perfect morals and exalted their position.

 

Finally, I agree that my salaam reachs the person on the other end if Allah s.w.t wills it.

 

لا حول و لا قوة الا بالله العلی العظیم

 

And according to the verse mentioned in previous posts, I believe that Allah s.w.t. wills it.

[peace seeker II]

Alhamdolillah you're glad.

 

When I talk, I hear my voice. Allha s.w.t. also hears my voice. Does this mean that Allah s.w.t. has a partner?

Of course not! These are two different types of hearing. Plus me being able to hear my own voice is Allah's s.w.t. gift.

 

 

alhamdulilah .. 

 

i agree with everything you said, which confirms that Allah's hearing can for instance not be compared to anybody else's hearing. One is limited, the other unlimited.

 

Even when we hear ourselves, it can not be compared to the Hearing of Allah .. 

 

And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein .. Qaf : 16

 

the jugular vein is closer than our ears, plus let us add that people of ignorance are referred to as being deaf and blind. So, this means that a person with perfectly intact hearing and seeing organs, would be according to Allah still deaf and blind. So again bottom line is that:

 

seeing of a creature (such as an Imam) can not be compared to seeing of Allah. 

 

Even if we say Allah sees this apple, and we can see it, there is no correlation or relation to the two. Allah is above any associates, comparisons, relations etc.

 

that's why He is the Hearer of Dua .. and you perfectly said la hawla (change / transition /transfer) except with Allah .. therefore, even our salams are transferred with Allah.

 

And all we can do is hope that our salams reach the prophet, because if we take that for granted then that is counter productive in building up taqwa / fear of Allah. 

 

wsalaam

Edited June 25, 2015 by peace seeker II

[Abdul Majid]

alhamdulilah .. 

 

i agree with everything you said, which confirms that Allah's hearing can for instance not be compared to anybody else's hearing. One is limited, the other unlimited.

 

Even when we hear ourselves, it can not be compared to the Hearing of Allah .. 

 

And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein .. Qaf : 16

 

the jugular vein is closer than our ears, plus let us add that people of ignorance are referred to as being deaf and blind. So, this means that a person with perfectly intact hearing and seeing organs, would be according to Allah still deaf and blind. So again bottom line is that:

 

seeing of a creature (such as an Imam) can not be compared to seeing of Allah. 

 

Even if we say Allah sees this apple, and we can see it, there is no correlation or relation to the two. Allah is above any associates, comparisons, relations etc.

 

that's why He is the Hearer of Dua .. and you perfectly said la hawla (change / transition /transfer) except with Allah .. therefore, even our salams are transferred with Allah.

 

And all we can do is hope that our salams reach the prophet, because if we take that for granted then that is counter productive in building up taqwa / fear of Allah. 

 

wsalaam

 

(wasalam)

[AbdusSibtayn]

Dead can hear:

Quran mentions the Prophet Salih's speech to the dead. This speech was made after his nation had been destroyed.

[Yusufali 7:77] Then they ham-strung the she camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying: "O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art a messenger (of Allah)!"

[Yusufali 7:78] So the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes in the morning!

[Yusufali 7:79] So Salih left them, saying: "O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!"

[Yusufali 7:91] But the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes before the morning!

[Yusufali 7:92] The men who reject Shu'aib became as if they had never been in the homes where they had flourished: the men who rejected Shu'aib - it was they who were ruined!

[Yusufali 7:93] So Shu'aib left them, saying:"O my people! I did indeed convey to you the messages for which I was sent by my Lord: I gave you good counsel, but how shall I lament over a people who refuse to believe!"

 

Quran Confirms that Rasool Allah [saww] is seeing our actions

There is a verse in the Holy Quran, which confirms that Rasool Allah [saww] is Seeing our Actions.

[Yusufali 9:94] ... It is your actions that Allah and His Messenger will observe: in the end will ye be brought back to Him Who knoweth what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."

And another verse of the Holy Quran confirms that not only Rasool Allah [saww], but also the Momineen (believers) are also seeing our actions.

[Yusufali 9:105] And say: "Work (righteousness): Soon will Allah observe your work, and His Messenger, and the Believers: Soon will ye be brought back to the knower of what is hidden and what is open: then will He show you the truth of all that ye did

 

Mashallah brother!A tooth breaking response to the so-called 'muwahhideen' here.

They are pretending as if the imams(asws) never taught us to seek their wasila, and as if a thing called dua tawassul and naad-e-ali never existed on the face of the earth.

Jazakallah khair!

[Muslim2010]

 Similarly as per hadith the imams are the believers mentioned in this verse (9:105). Thus it clearly concludes they are present to see our deeds, Also the prophet and imams are witness of our deeds as per other verses, if they are not seeing our deeds then what witness they can make?

 

I have the following verses on this issue:

 

O Prophet, indeed We have sent you as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner. (33:45)

 

Indeed, We have sent you as a witness and a bringer of good tidings and a warner (48;08)

 

Indeed, We have sent to you a Messenger as a witness upon you just as We sent to Pharaoh a messenger. (73:15)

 

And say, "Do , for Allah will see your deeds, and  His Messenger and the believers. And you will be returned to the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, and He will inform you of what you used to do." (9:105)

 

The above verses completes the true picture that the Prophet saw  has been sent as witness  (and this is not in future tense) on us to watch our deeds, if he does not see our deeds then his witness becomes unacceptable.

 

Regards

Edited June 25, 2015 by skamran110

[peace seeker II]

^^^ same issue as with all other issues. Allah is al-Shahid .. the Witness. And Allah witnessing is not the same or comparable to any creature witnessing including prophets believers. 

 

comes back to the problem of people not differentiating between Ali and al-Ali, seeing of prophets and seeing of Allah, hearing of creatures and hearing of Allah, giving rizq of creatures and al-Razaq, and in this case being witness versus the-Witness.

 

We can not compare, relate or partner the two. They are totally unrelated and have nothing to do with each other. One is limited the other is limited.

 

thanks for sharing these verses

 

best regards

Mashallah brother!A tooth breaking response to the so-called 'muwahhideen' here.
They are pretending as if the imams(asws) never taught us to seek their wasila, and as if a thing called dua tawassul and naad-e-ali never existed on the face of the earth.
Jazakallah khair!

 

it's in future tense, talking about judgment day, and it's limited to what Allah wants to show. Plus it has no mention of making duas to others than Allah, while the real back breaking verses against falsehood are the ones that clearly say we should not make duas to any other than God .. in the Quran and hadiths. 

 

And prophet Shuwayb talking to the dead doesn't mean they hear it, because only Allah can make those in the graves hear. Also it doesn't show him making duas to martyred people, which is the whole issue here.

[mina]

There is a hadith where the prophet (pbuh) tells us to greet the ahlul qabr,ppl of the graves with 'ya ayyuhal ahlul qabr' because they hear but can't answer. why should we greet them when they are not able to hear?

Why do we send salawats and salams to the ahlul beit (as) and in moharram when we say repeatedly As -Salamu ala Hussayn wa ala Ali ibn il-Hussayn...and so forth when they don't hear that?

[guest050817]

There is a hadith where the prophet (pbuh) tells us to greet the ahlul qabr,ppl of the graves with 'ya ayyuhal ahlul qabr' because they hear but can't answer. why should we greet them when they are not able to hear?

Why do we send salawats and salams to the ahlul beit (as) and in moharram when we say repeatedly As -Salamu ala Hussayn wa ala Ali ibn il-Hussayn...and so forth when they don't hear that?

 

I think the issue of not hearing isn't the problem with calling out to the imams a.s for help or protection. I have no problem with the belief if Allah swt so wills they can hear.

 

However, the problem i have is, during the time of the imams a.s, someone fifty miles from them in another town or city would not be calling out saying 'Ya Ali Madad' as per my knowledge, because it could be possible the imam a.s was showering, eating, sleeping , grooming his beard, brushing his teeth and so on. It is best to always begin our dua's as we begin anything, with the blessed name of our creator, Allah swt. Why not begin dua's or pleas for help in his name, and then ask him for the sake of or 'by right of' ?

[mina]

I was refering to the post above me.

I replied to you in another thread that a friend of mine whom I haven't seen a long time asked me to help her,whilst I was dreaming.

So if I as a sinful and lowest level muslim could get that 'call' why shouldn't the ahlul beit (as)? And you know not everybody can get their wasila.

The state of mind of those persons is not comparable to ours. They are always awake and have removed the veils which prevent our hearts and minds from actual recognizing the things as they are. That's our problem and has nothing to do with physical needs.

Even now when we are fasting don't you think that our state of mind is different? Of course if we could forget about thirst and our empty stomach we could raise our levels of conscience and recognize things we usually don't even think about.

[peace seeker II]

There is a hadith where the prophet (pbuh) tells us to greet the ahlul qabr,ppl of the graves with 'ya ayyuhal ahlul qabr' because they hear but can't answer. why should we greet them when they are not able to hear?

Why do we send salawats and salams to the ahlul beit (as) and in moharram when we say repeatedly As -Salamu ala Hussayn wa ala Ali ibn il-Hussayn...and so forth when they don't hear that?

 

they can hear if Allah choses to:

 

Indeed, Allah causes to hear whom He wills, but you cannot make hear those in the graves. 35:22

 

we speak to the dead, to the martyrs. we send salawat to them, and in fact our prayers are void unless we do so. actually sending salawat is more than mere lip service. it's an emotion, it's actually sending peace and blessings and positive thoughts. We do this, yes. but we can not guarantee or be sure that each time they hear us or that it is delivered. Speaking to dead or martyred people is not the same as asking them for help. Asking for help is in arabic termed as tista3een like in sura 1:5 .. it is a form of dua .. we are only to make dua to Allah which is clear in the quran. we can only hope that our salawat and speech is heard by those that we want us to hear. But we can be 100% sure each time that Allah hears it. With any creature we can't. Allah does not share His status as hearer of dua .. ultimate, absolute hearer of duas .. with anyone. Actually Allah doesn't share anything with anyone, not just that.

I was refering to the post above me.

I replied to you in another thread that a friend of mine whom I haven't seen a long time asked me to help her,whilst I was dreaming.

So if I as a sinful and lowest level muslim could get that 'call' why shouldn't the ahlul beit (as)? And you know not everybody can get their wasila.

The state of mind of those persons is not comparable to ours. They are always awake and have removed the veils which prevent our hearts and minds from actual recognizing the things as they are. That's our problem and has nothing to do with physical needs.

Even now when we are fasting don't you think that our state of mind is different? Of course if we could forget about thirst and our empty stomach we could raise our levels of conscience and recognize things we usually don't even think about.

 

if you meet the prophet in a dream and you talk to him, then it's not dua. You won't wake up and tell your friend (or us on shiachat) .. alhamdulilah i woke up and remembered i met the prophet and saw him in front of me, then made dua to him .." no, you would say "i saw him and spoke to him" .. In quran we are allowed to ask people we see in front of us for help. it's not supplication when we meet people in any world .. including the dream world or internet. right now i am not doing dua to you. dua is spiritual supplication, like we do in prayer and in mosques to Allah. 

i think you understand the meaning of dua , i'm sure you do. i think most anybody understands this in the muslim world. like when you tell somebody "make dua for me"