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In the Name of God بسم الله

Circular Reasoning Of Twelvers

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faridov

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Some of the brothers have been curious about the Imamah of the Twelve and why I have chosen it as a debate topic. As we can see from my debate with Abu Hadi, the way to prove the Imamah of the Twelve can only be done with the usage of Shia hadiths.

It is impossible to know who the Imams were from the Qur'an, since their names aren't included.

It is impossible to know the Imams from Sunni hadith since there is no evidence of appointment of the Imams in Sunni hadith.

There is no evidence of the Imams from using logic alone, since one needs evidence of appointment to accept their Imamah. One cannot be born in the desert and contemplate the stars, then start believing in the Imams.

The ONLY evidence of the Imamah of the Twelve is through Shia hadith.

This means that if you are a Twelver, then you are following a circular reasoning.

One cannot be a Twelver unless he accepts Twelver hadith sources.

One cannot accept Twelver hadith sources unless he becomes a Twelver.

The smart Shi'ee amongst you will try to throw that question back at me and say: Then then same applies to Sunnis.

The smarter Shi'ee will know that that the fundamentals of the deen according to Sunnis is not based on circular reasoning, since all our fundamentals are explicit in the Qur'an.

Ironically, even Shia sources themselves are extremely questionable and I suggest checking out my site for my reasons why in the article about Sunni vs Shia Hadith Sciences. However, that is another topic for another time.

Please try not to derail the thread.

May Allah guide us all.

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Al-Afasy: Islam is not based on circular reasoning. Ask the thousands of converts that became Muslims after reading the Qur'an. It is ironic that you attack Islam in order to defend Shiasm.

Brother CM: See my article on the hadith of Twelve Caliphs in the Popular Section on my site. I would include a link, but it is not allowed according to SC rules.

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Ask the thousands of converts that became Muslims after reading the Qur'an.

Ask the thousands of sunnis that converted to Shia Islam after their research to find the right path. This includes top Sunni sheikhs and reverts to Islam who first became sunni.

 

I will post you 100+ documentary videos here of Sunnis who became shia. I challange you to post me 1/10 of that where a shia became a sunni. 

Edited by SlaveOfAllah14
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The smarter Shi'ee will know that that the fundamentals of the deen according to Sunnis is not based on circular reasoning, since all our fundamentals are explicit in the Qur'an.

 

(salam) habibi, shlonak ya akhi? I just gotta ask a question -

 

Question: Was the Prophet hood of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) made explicit before his hijra? As in, was his name mentioned in the Holy Qur'an before he made the Hijra? If not, then does that mean that belief in his Prophet Hood was not obligatory before his name was mentioned in the Holy Qur'an explicitly (with no ta'weel) and therefore those who would die before his name was mentioned in the Holy Qur'an without believing in his Prophet hood, would then be excused?

 

(salam)

Edited by al-Ibrahimi
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I'm not knowledgeable at all in these type of differences, and there are certain bases of shia Islam that I don't believe in. However, as any religion, I agree with you on the circular reasoning. However, we have the freedom to join and leave that reasoning, to take distance and judge by the effects.

When I first accepted Islam, it was not because it convinced me intellectually. I was the type of person who felt pity for those who were religious. But I decided to justly give it a try, and judge by the effects and experiences I live within that lifestyle, even knowing everything was based on circular reasoning. And honestly, I found it was worth it, a set of beliefs that was worth following.

I can guess the so called circular reasoning of twelvers isn't any different, as Ahlul Bayt is one of the richest sources of knowledge and wisdom one may find in Islam as a whole, if one happens to give it a try. If it wasn't because of curious people without prejudices who say 'maybe I will learn something from this', religions would die sooner or later.

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Ask the thousands of sunnis that converted to Shia Islam after their research to find the right path.

None of them can provide evidence of the Imamah of the Twelve without a circular reasoning, as I have demonstrated in the past week or so.

@ Al-Ibrahimi: Akhi Al-Kareem, believing in the Prophet peace be upon him during his time was a tangible matter. His prophet-hood was tangible. One did not need to refer to the Qur'an for his name. His existence in front of you means that you do not have to rely upon circular logic.

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@ Al-Ibrahimi: Akhi Al-Kareem, believing in the Prophet peace be upon him during his time was a tangible matter. His prophet-hood was tangible. One did not need to refer to the Qur'an for his name. His existence in front of you means that you do not have to rely upon circular logic.

 

Well likewise, we believe he appointed his successors explicitly and made it clear. Now we just gotta prove it... and I dunno how to. So I will leave from here.

Edited by al-Ibrahimi
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When non-Muslims become Sunnis, it is due to the Qur'an.

 

When non-Muslims become Shias, they start with the Qur'an, and then the details of the 12 Imams are explained to them later on. They do not come up with the idea of 12 Imams through the Qur'an alone. They need to either read Shia books, or have some knowledgeable Twelver explain the concept to them (using Shia books).

 

Whereas the fundamental concept of Sunnis - Tawhid, Prophethood, Prayer, Zakaat, Hajj are all found in the Qur'an. They only need Sunni ahadith to explain the details, not to introduce the entire concept.

 

So yes, believing in 12 Imams can only be done through the books of Twelvers, and this is indeed circular logic.

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Belief in the Qur'an's words is just based on reading it and feeling its raw eloquence and power, as many converts can attest. Even in translation.

 

Any belief or practice that comes from hadith - of any sect - is circular due to the circular nature of the hadith sciences and rijal.

 

You believe in a certain thing/practice and follow a sect because the hadith says so. How do you know the hadith is authentic? You study the narrators' reliability. How are they reliable? If they follow that sect you are following! This goes for Sunnis too.

Edited by ChattingwithShias
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Belief in the Qur'an's words is just based on reading it and feeling its raw eloquence and power, as many converts can attest. Even in translation.

 

Any belief or practice that comes from hadith - of any sect - is circular due to the circular nature of the hadith sciences and rijal.

 

You believe in a certain thing/practice and follow a sect because the hadith says so. How do you know the hadith is authentic? You study the narrators' reliability. How are they reliable? If they follow that sect you are following! This goes for Sunnis too.

 

There isn't a single fundamental concept that Sunnis need their ahadith for. They only need their ahadith to explain the details.

 

Each and every single fundamental concept that Sunnis believe in is explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an.

 

Whereas to believe in 12 Imams you need to accept the Twelver books, and to do this, you need to be a Twelver in essence. That is circular logic.

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There isn't a single fundamental concept that Sunnis need their ahadith for. They only need their ahadith to explain the details.

 

Each and every single fundamental concept that Sunnis believe in is explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an.

 

Whereas to believe in 12 Imams you need to accept the Twelver books, and to do this, you need to be a Twelver in essence. That is circular logic.

The Mahdi is a fundamental concept in Islam.Where is it in the Qur'an?
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If there is no Sunni belief in Imamat, why did successive Sunni caliphs spend so much effort in trying to obtain the allegiance of Shia Imams? 

 

I thought they preferred to oppress and kill them?

 

Regarding Ummayad Caliphs - because al-Hassan (RA) and al-Husayn (RA) had big political influence and were loved by the masses.

 

Regarding 'Abbasid Caliphs - they sought to legitimise their Khilafa by seeking allegiance from the descendants of 'Ali (RA), and this wasn't limited to the Twelver Imams, but all of 'Ali's (RA) descendants (don't forget that al-Hassan (RA) had many descendants, not just al-Husayn (RA), you always seem to forget this). It was a Banu 'Abbas vs Banu 'Ali thing.

 

It is certainly not because they believed their were divinely appointed infallibles.

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It is a fundamental concept for Twelvers, for Ahlul Sunnah it is a matter of ghayb.

The belief in the coming of Mahdi and Issa is part of the Islamic belief and not only as a matter of ghayba.

(Btw even if your fundamentals are all found in the holy Qur'an it's still a circular reasoning.)

Fundamentals cannot derived correctly without ahadith that's what why the Qur'an states in 59:7 that we should accept what the prophet (pbuh) gives us and refrain from what he forbids.

So there is no rule to derive all fundamentals from the Qur'an only,as Allah stated.So how can that be an argument against twelvers?

Edited by mina313
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Salam, 

My humble opinion is that indeed nowhere in the Quran can be found a verse that tells us about the Twelve Imams a.s.

However the quest starts with the acceptance that Allah appoints kings, messengers, prophets and their successors. 

But then the question arises: Then why did He had to appoint Imam Ali a.s. as the successor of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. while Islam was already completed.

The answer is that indeed the revelation was completed but its interpretation wasn't known fully yet. Prophet Isa a.s. is a good example of this when it comes to Bani Israel.

The Taurat was already known but Prophet Isa a.s. came to correct that what was distorted, brought back what was deleted and explained and gave the right explanation of that what was minsunderstood. 

After realizing this the possibility of the Twelve Imams a.s. arises. 

Edited by Iskandarovich
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The belief in the coming of Mahdi and Issa is part of the Islamic belief and not only as a matter of ghayba.

(Btw even if your fundamentals are all found in the holy Qur'an it's still a circular reasoning.)

Fundamentals cannot derived correctly without ahadith that's what why the Qur'an states in 59:7 that we should accept what the prophet (pbuh) gives us and refrain from what he forbids.

So there is no rule to derive all fundamentals from the Qur'an only,as Allah stated.So how can that be an argument against twelvers?

 

The coming of 'Isa (as) and al-Mahdi are matters of ghayb, not 'aqeeda.

 

Regarding the Qur'an - yes, you can call this circular reasoning, but then you are degrading the Words of Allah (swt) down to the level of the books of ahadith. If you are willing to do this just to score some points, then that is your decision.

 

The Prophet (saw) expounded on the fundamentals declared in the Qur'an, he did not introduce new 'aqaid not found in the Qur'an (this is the Sunni belief).

 

The issue with Twelvers and their belief in 12 Imams is the fact that this entire concept is not found in the Qur'an, not found in any books except the books of the Twelvers themselves.

 

So the point is, as stated by Farid in the opening post - you can only believe in the 12 Imams of the Twelvers if you accept that the Twelver books are correct, and you can only accept that the Twelver books are correct if you are already a Twelver.

 

Circular logic.

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Imamah ist from Usool al Madhab and not from Usool al Deen.

If you only follow Quran as ordered by Umar then you are a Muslim and if you follow Quran and Ahl Al Bayt as ordered by Prophet saw than you are a Shia Muslim.

How you put it down is as if we added something to islam. 

In fact we are muslim because we accept that Allah appointed Imam Ali a.s. through Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.

We do not follow persons but we obey Allah by following Imam Ali a.s. and therefore the term shia is just to distinct ourself from other beliefs about islam. 

 

Edited by Iskandarovich
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The coming of 'Isa (as) and al-Mahdi are matters of ghayb, not 'aqeeda.

 

Regarding the Qur'an - yes, you can call this circular reasoning, but then you are degrading the Words of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì down to the level of the books of ahadith. If you are willing to do this just to score some points, then that is your decision.

 

The Prophet (saw) expounded on the fundamentals declared in the Qur'an, he did not introduce new 'aqaid not found in the Qur'an (this is the Sunni belief).

 

The issue with Twelvers and their belief in 12 Imams is the fact that this entire concept is not found in the Qur'an, not found in any books except the books of the Twelvers themselves.

 

So the point is, as stated by Farid in the opening post - you can only believe in the 12 Imams of the Twelvers if you accept that the Twelver books are correct, and you can only accept that the Twelver books are correct if you are already a Twelver.

 

Circular logic.

It's not about degrading God's word when He Himself states that the prophet and His word go together.

So actually denying the prophet's word is denying God.

No believer man and woman have the right to disobey the order of God and his messenger! (Surah Ahzab 33:36)

Anyone who obeys the prophet has obeyed God and those who ignore, you are not responsible for them (and their punishment is by god (Surah Nisa 4: 80)

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The coming of 'Isa (as) and al-Mahdi are matters of ghayb, not 'aqeeda.

 

Regarding the Qur'an - yes, you can call this circular reasoning, but then you are degrading the Words of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì down to the level of the books of ahadith. If you are willing to do this just to score some points, then that is your decision.

 

The Prophet (saw) expounded on the fundamentals declared in the Qur'an, he did not introduce new 'aqaid not found in the Qur'an (this is the Sunni belief).

 

The issue with Twelvers and their belief in 12 Imams is the fact that this entire concept is not found in the Qur'an, not found in any books except the books of the Twelvers themselves.

 

So the point is, as stated by Farid in the opening post - you can only believe in the 12 Imams of the Twelvers if you accept that the Twelver books are correct, and you can only accept that the Twelver books are correct if you are already a Twelver.

 

Circular logic.

But isn't this the case also with concept in sunni ahadith that cannot be found in the Quran as well?

I mean, the belief in the Twelve Imams a.s. cannot be found in the Quran and so is the case with the return of Prophet Isa a.s. and Imam Al-Mahdi.

Do you therefore as a sunni reject these narrations too?

You will say that these beliefs not contradict Quran and that's why there is nothing wrong with believing it. 

Same with the hadith about 'The Ten promised Paradise' which can only be found in sunnih ahaadith etc.

Edited by Iskandarovich
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Furthermore, the Khalif according to our understanding is the inheritor of the prophet's authority on religious matters and a source of guidance for the people of his time. Whether or not he gains access to political authority does not negate his position that as the prophet's Khalifah on earth and that the people can refer back to him for guidance. Similarly, the prophetص, while he was in Mecca before his migration and due to his prosecution by the Mushrikeen could not possess any political authority as he did after establishing the Islamic state in Medina. Yet, just as he was a prophet in Medina having political authority, he was prophethood in Mecca was still the same way without any political authority that his small number of early followers referred back to as a source of guidance. We say the same about the A'immahع. Hence, for example, the famous context within some of these Ahadith which goes along the following: "The matters of the people will continue to progress as long as they are led by twelve men." - can be argued to be applied with the A'immah being the source of guidance for the people to instruct them on how to live accordingly to the Sunnah, regardless if the Imam possess any political authority or not.

 

What would brother Farid say about this Hadith then?

 

"يكون لهذه الأمة اثنا عشر قيماً لا يضرهم من خذلهم كلهم من قريش"

 

أخرجه عن الطبراني في الكبير عن جابر بن سمرة .

Edited by al-Ibrahimi
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I will not be responding to posts outside of the topic. I will only respond to arguments made about external evidences of the Twelve Imams.

It is important to be aware that proving that Sunnism is based on circular logic does not affirm the correctness of Twelver Shiasm. Find yourself a way out of this rabbit hole, then make a thread proving that Sunnism is based on circular logic.

@ baradar jackson:

Your evidence for the Imams is their personalities. These are derived from Shia sources. You can barely find more than a couple of lines of information from your late Imams.

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It is a fundamental concept for Twelvers, for Ahlul Sunnah it is a matter of ghayb.

I don't understand you? Is the Mahdi-concept a part of your belief or no? 

And yes beside that it's a matter of Al-Ghaib just like many Quranic concepts such as 'Judgment Day' but it's however an Islamic concept and part of our belief no matter how you try to categorize it.

 

I will not be responding to posts outside of the topic. I will only respond to arguments made about external evidences of the Twelve Imams.

It is important to be aware that proving that Sunnism is based on circular logic does not affirm the correctness of Twelver Shiasm. Find yourself a way out of this rabbit hole, then make a thread proving that Sunnism is based on circular logic.

 

Brother faridov,

While still a sunni the belief in the Twelve Imams a.s. only became plausible when reading the hadith of the Twelve Caliphs which is an accepted sunni narration. 

I don't know exactly what you mean but if it is what I think then according to the hadith above it is no circular logic anymore. 

Edited by Iskandarovich
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السلام عليكم

Brother Farid. I could argue the same by saying that a person living during the reign of Abu Bakr who refused to give Abu Bakr Bay'ah and recognize him as the Khalifah of the prophet could argue in defence of their position by saying that Allah did not mention his name to be the Khalif of the prophetص. Yet at the same time, you believe that anyone during the reign of Abu Bakr who refused to give him Bay'ah and opposed him became an apostate from Islam which makes such belief in the obligation to give Abu Bakr Bay'ah as a pillar of faith where one could nullify their faith if they rejected it. Now based on your current standards, would you defend the Eman of such person living during the reign of Abu Bakr who rejects to give him Bay'ah based on this reasoning they have?

I'm sure you wouldn't and instead would argue against such person that the essence of Khilafah or the succession of the prophet's authority is established in the Quran with the application of it being in the Sunnah(i.e the Khalif being appointed by the prophet without the need of his name being mentioned in the Quran).

The same can be said for the Shi'i' understanding of Imammah applied as a succession to the prophet's authority. We both agree that Imammah in it's essence and generic form is in the Noble Quran but differ in it's certain attributes. For example, we believe that the Khalif is only appointed by Allah which can arguably be confirmed via the Quran while you believe that the Khalif can be appointed via the Shurah of the people - which there is no Ayah in the Quran that explicitly and directly states that the Khalif can be appointed via the people(Hence you resort to the Sunnah). The point being is, the Shi'i understanding of Imammah(i.e the leader who must be appointed by Allah and never by the people) can be argued to be established in the Quran while it's application(i.e who the Imam is and when they will be the Hujjah on earth) can be found in the Sunnah by the prophet - and this is where the Ayat that orders the obeying of the prophet comes into application.

In summary, the crux of the article's argument is that it tries to disprove the idea that the Hadith of the 12 caliphs cannot be used to refer to the 12 Aimmahع of the Twelver Shi'a. The reasoning and arguments used is based on the Sunni understanding of Khilafah, that is - one of the attributes of the Khalif is to have a political role in governing affairs of the Islamic state and since all of the Imams with the exception of 'Aliع did not possess this role then the Hadith cannot refer to them.

Our response to this put roughly(and InshaAllah someone more knowledgable can add on) and very briefly, is that such reasoning is not objective and cannot be used since it's based on the subjective Sunni understanding of the attributes of the Khalif that is defined within Sunnism being used as an argument against the Shi'a understanding of it. If we are going to be objective in our understanding of the attributes to the Khalif, we refer to the Quran which both; the Imammiya and Sunnis agree on. The Quran does not restrict the Khalif to have a political role and one proof for this is that Allah in the Quran appointed Adam as his Khalifah on earth, and Adam while he was a Khalifah of Allah on earth did not have any political authority over any Islamic state governing the affairs of people.

Furthermore, the Khalif according to our understanding is the inheritor of the prophet's authority on religious matters and a source of guidance for the people of his time. Whether or not he gains access to political authority does not negate his position that as the prophet's Khalifah on earth and that the people can refer back to him for guidance. Similarly, the prophetص, while he was in Mecca before his migration and due to his prosecution by the Mushrikeen could not possess any political authority as he did after establishing the Islamic state in Medina. Yet, just as he was a prophet in Medina having political authority, he was prophethood in Mecca was still the same way without any political authority that his small number of early followers referred back to as a source of guidance. We say the same about the A'immahع. Hence, for example, the famous context within some of these Ahadith which goes along the following: "The matters of the people will continue to progress as long as they are led by twelve men." - can be argued to be applied with the A'immah being the source of guidance for the people to instruct them on how to live accordingly to the Sunnah, regardless if the Imam possess any political authority or not. Indeed, it is a matter of Ghayb for a Sunni now, since according to them, the Mahdi is not present during their time acting as an authoritative figure. However, it will turn into a matter of 'Aqeedah when the Mahdi does emerge during their time, establishes his authority on earth in declaring himself as the Khalifah of the prophet and requests every person to give him Bay'ah. That is, they are obliged to give him Bay'ah and refusing to do so nullifies their Eman(i.e they apostate from Islam and their blood and money become Halal). With that said, let's assume a fictional scenario to understand this better - that is; assuming a person living during the time of when the Mahdi emerges but refuses to give him Bay'ah with the reasoning that his position to authority is not stated in the Quran, let alone his name. Now would you defend the Eman of this person based on the reasoning they give? If you were to answer him from a Sunni perspective, you would not defend him by stating that the proof for the obligation to give Bay'ah to the Mahdi is established in the Sunnah without the need of it being mentioned in the Quran. Therefore you would tell him that he must acknowledge the Mahdi as the leader of his time and the prophet's Khalifah on earth as part of his 'Aqeedah, otherwise his Eman becomes nullified. The same is no different about the A'immahع with their authority being explained in details from the Sunnah alone being sufficient to establish it without the Quran mentioning these details (i.e their names and during what period of time they will become the Khulafah of the prophet) while at the same time; the essence of their authority as Khulafah of the prophet is established in the Quran, and it is.

So basically, they admit the existence of the hadith of 12 leader in sunni sources . Actually in the most authentic hadith book they have.

Muslim Book 020, Number 4480:

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said something which I could not understand. I asked my father: What did he say? He said: He has said that all of them (twelve Caliphs) will be from the Quraish.

Muslim Book 020, Number 4481:

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir b. Samura that the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: This order will continue to be dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. The narrator says: Then he said something which I could not understand, and I said to my father: What did he say? My father told me that he said that all of them (Caliphs) would be from the Quraish.

Muslim Book 020, Number 4482:

It has been reported on the authority of Jabir b. Samura who said: I went with my father to the Messenger of Allah (may peeace be upon him) and I heard him say: This religion would continue to remain powerful and dominant until there have been twelve Caliphs. Then he added something which I couldn't catch on account of the noise of the people. I asked my father: What did he say? My father said: He has said that all of them will be from the Quraish.

I'm not sure what else they want. The evidence was provided . To accept it or reject it is another issue. How do they dare to come and claim that the 12 are not in their books?

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What would brother Farid say about this Hadith then?

 

"يكون لهذه الأمة اثنا عشر قيماً لا يضرهم من خذلهم كلهم من قريش"

 

أخرجه عن الطبراني في الكبير عن جابر بن سمرة .

السلام عليكم bro

I'm not understanding what you're trying to ask here. Can you elaborate?

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