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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Muslim2010

Names Of Partners Beside Allah?

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Names of Partners beside Allah:

 

١٠_٦٦ أَلَآ إِنَّ لِلَّهِ مَن فِى ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَمَن فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ ۗ وَمَا يَتَّبِعُ ٱلَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ شُرَكَآءَ ۚ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا ٱلظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا يَخْرُصُونَ

010:066 Look! To Allah indeed belongs whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth. What do they pursue who invoke partners besides Allah? They merely follow conjectures and they just make surmises.

 

٦_١٠٠ وَجَعَلُوا۟ لِلَّهِ شُرَكَآءَ ٱلْجِنَّ وَخَلَقَهُمْ ۖ وَخَرَقُوا۟ لَهُۥ بَنِينَ وَبَنَٰتٍۭ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍۢ ۚ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥ وَتَعَٰلَىٰ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ

006:100 They make the jinn partners of Allah, though He has created them, and carve out sons and daughters for Him, without any knowledge. Immaculate is He and exalted above what they allege [concerning Him]!

 

The jinns are partners to Allah swt.

 

Quran mentions about the Prophet: saww

 

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ ٱللَّهَ فَٱتَّبِعُونِى يُحْبِبْكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ غَفُورٌۭ رَّحِيمٌۭ

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَٱلرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا۟ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلْكَٰفِرِينَ

 

003:031 Say, ‘If you love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.’ 003:032 Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger.’ But if they turn away, indeed Allah does not like the faithless.

 

The Prophet is to be OBEYED unconditionally to get Allah’s love. Allah swt praises the prophet with the following words:

 

وَٱلنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَىٰ ،مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَىٰ، وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ ٱلْهَوَىٰٓ، إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْىٌۭ يُوحَىٰ

053:001 In the Name of Allah, the All-beneficent, the All-merciful. By the star when it sets:

053:002 your companion has neither gone astray, nor amiss.

053:003 Nor does he speak out of [his own] desire:

053:004 it is just a revelation that is revealed [to him],

 

Do not invoke  any God / Illah for worship beside Allah:

 

١٨_١٤ وَرَبَطْنَا عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ إِذْ قَامُوا۟ فَقَالُوا۟ رَبُّنَا رَبُّ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ لَن نَّدْعُوَا۟ مِن دُونِهِۦٓ إِلَٰهًۭا ۖ لَّقَدْ قُلْنَآ إِذًۭا شَطَطًا

018:014 and fortified their hearts, when they stood up and said, ‘Our Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. We will never invoke any god besides Him, for then we shall certainly have said an atrocious lie.

 

٢٨_٨٨وَلَا تَدْعُ مَعَ ٱللَّهِ إِلَٰهًا ءَاخَرَ ۘ لَآ إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ ۚ كُلُّ شَىْءٍ هَالِكٌ إِلَّا وَجْهَهُۥ ۚ لَهُ ٱلْحُكْمُ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

 

028:088 And do not invoke another god besides Allah; there is no god except Him. Everything is to perish except His Face. All judgement belongs to Him, and to Him you will be brought back.

 

Auliya (not chosen by Allah) are Partners to Allah:

 

إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ عِبَادٌ أَمْثَالُكُمْ ۖ فَٱدْعُوهُمْ فَلْيَسْتَجِيبُوا۟ لَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَٰدِقِينَ

007:194 Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful.

 

أَلَهُمْ أَرْجُلٌۭ يَمْشُونَ بِهَآ ۖ أَمْ لَهُمْ أَيْدٍۢ يَبْطِشُونَ بِهَآ ۖ أَمْ لَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌۭ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَآ ۖ أَمْ لَهُمْ ءَاذَانٌۭ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا ۗ قُلِ ٱدْعُوا۟ شُرَكَآءَكُمْ ثُمَّ كِيدُونِ فَلَا تُنظِرُونِ 

007:195 Do they have feet by which they walk? Or do they have hands by which they strike? Or do they have eyes by which they see? Or do they have ears by which they hear? Say, [O Muhammad], "Call your 'partners' and then conspire against me and give me no respite.

 

قُلْ مَن رَّبُّ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ قُلِ ٱللَّهُ ۚ قُلْ أَفَٱتَّخَذْتُم مِّن دُونِهِۦٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ لَا يَمْلِكُونَ لِأَنفُسِهِمْ نَفْعًۭا وَلَا ضَرًّۭا ۚ قُلْ هَلْ يَسْتَوِى ٱلْأَعْمَىٰ وَٱلْبَصِيرُ أَمْ هَلْ تَسْتَوِى ٱلظُّلُمَٰتُ وَٱلنُّورُ ۗ أَمْ جَعَلُوا۟ لِلَّهِ شُرَكَآءَ خَلَقُوا۟ كَخَلْقِهِۦ فَتَشَٰبَهَ ٱلْخَلْقُ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ قُلِ ٱللَّهُ خَٰلِقُ كُلِّ شَىْءٍۢ وَهُوَ ٱلْوَٰحِدُ ٱلْقَهَّٰرُ 

 

013:016 Say, ‘Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?’ Say, ‘Allah!’ Say, ‘Have you then taken others besides Him for guardians, who have no control over their own benefit or harm?’ Say, ‘Are the blind one and the seer equal? Are darkness and light equal?’ Have they set up for Allah partners who have created like His creation, so that the creations seemed confusable to them? Say, ‘Allah is the creator of all things, and He is the One and the All-paramount.’

 

مَثَلُ الَّذِيْنَ اتَّخَذُوْا مِنْ دُوْنِ اللّٰهِ اَوْلِيَاۗءَ كَمَثَلِ الْعَنْكَبُوْتِ ښ اِتَّخَذَتْ بَيْتًا  ۭ وَاِنَّ اَوْهَنَ الْبُيُوْتِ لَبَيْتُ الْعَنْكَبُوْتِ  ۘ لَوْ كَانُوْا يَعْلَمُوْنَ       41؀29

029:041 The parable of those who take guardians (Auliya) instead of Allah is that of the spider that takes a home, and indeed the frailest of homes is the home of a spider, had they known!

 

وَاِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلٰۗىِٕكَةِ اسْجُدُوْا لِاٰدَمَ فَسَجَدُوْٓا اِلَّآ اِبْلِيْسَ ۭ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ اَمْرِ رَبِّهٖ  ۭ اَفَتَتَّخِذُوْنَهٗ وَذُرِّيَّتَهٗٓ اَوْلِيَاۗءَ مِنْ دُوْنِيْ وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ  ۭ بِئْسَ لِلظّٰلِمِيْنَ بَدَلًا  

And recall when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam"; all of them fell prostrate, except Iblis. He was of the jinn and so disobeyed the command of his Lord. Will you, then, take him and his progeny as your Guardians rather than Me although they are your open enemies? What an evil substitute are these wrong-doers taking  ) 18-50( !

 

Auliya Chosen by Allah swt:

 

اِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللّٰهُ وَرَسُوْلُهٗ وَالَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِيْنَ يُقِيْمُوْنَ الصَّلٰوةَ وَيُؤْتُوْنَ الزَّكٰوةَ وَهُمْ رٰكِعُوْنَ     55؀5

وَمَنْ يَّتَوَلَّ اللّٰهَ وَرَسُوْلَهٗ وَالَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا فَاِنَّ حِزْبَ اللّٰهِ هُمُ الْغٰلِبُوْنَ      56؀ۧ5

 

Only Allah, His Messenger, and those who believe and who establish Prayer, pay Zakah, and bow (before Allah) are your allies (Wali). All those who take Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as their Allies (Wali), should remember that the party of Allah will be triumphant. (5:55, 56)

 

The above verses clarify  that all Other than Allah, The Prophet saww, and Imams from Ahl albayt  as are  Auliya beside Allah and they are partners to Allah swt.

 

What are the Names of the Partners to Allah swt?

 

أَفَمَنْ هُوَ قَآئِمٌ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ نَفْسٍۭ بِمَا كَسَبَتْ ۗ وَجَعَلُوا۟ لِلَّهِ شُرَكَآءَ قُلْ سَمُّوهُمْ ۚ أَمْ تُنَبِّـُٔونَهُۥ بِمَا لَا يَعْلَمُ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ أَم بِظَٰهِرٍۢ مِّنَ ٱلْقَوْلِ ۗ بَلْ زُيِّنَ لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مَكْرُهُمْ وَصُدُّوا۟ عَنِ ٱلسَّبِيلِ ۗ وَمَن يُضْلِلِ ٱللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُۥ مِنْ هَادٍۢ {٣٣}

 

013:033 Is He who sustains every soul in spite of what it earns [comparable to the idols]? Yet they ascribe partners to Allah! Say, ‘Name them!’ Will you inform Him concerning something He does not know about on the earth, or concerning [what are] mere words? Indeed, to the faithless, their scheming is presented as decorous, and they have been barred from the
way; and whomever Allah leads astray, has no guide.

 

٥٣_٢٣ إِنْ هِىَ إِلَّآ أَسْمَآءٌۭ سَمَّيْتُمُوهَآ أَنتُمْ وَءَابَآؤُكُم مَّآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَٰنٍ ۚ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا ٱلظَّنَّ وَمَا تَهْوَى ٱلْأَنفُسُ ۖ وَلَقَدْ جَآءَهُم مِّن رَّبِّهِمُ ٱلْهُدَىٰٓ

 

053:023 These are but names, which you have coined—you and your fathers—for which Allah has not sent down any authority. They follow nothing but conjectures and the desires of the [lower] soul, while there has already come to them the guidance from their Lord.

 

أَفَرَءَيْتُمُ ٱللَّٰتَ وَٱلْعُزَّىٰ، وَمَنَوٰةَ ٱلثَّالِثَةَ ٱلْأُخْرَىٰٓ، 

053:019 Have you considered Lat and ‘Uzza?

053:020 and Manat, the third one?

 

The above verse mentions clearly three (3) names (including Lat, Munaat and Uzza ) are Partners to Allah swt. 

 

Thus to avoid these partners we should obey Allah swt, the Prophet and Imams from Ahl albayt as as given under verses ( like 5:55, 56 and 4:59).

 

The discussion can be concluded by the following verse:

 

٣٨_٢٩ كِتَٰبٌ أَنزَلْنَٰهُ إِلَيْكَ مُبَٰرَكٌۭ لِّيَدَّبَّرُوٓا۟ ءَايَٰتِهِۦ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ أُو۟لُوا۟ ٱلْأَلْبَٰبِ

 

[This is] a blessed Book that We have sent down to you, so that they may contemplate its signs, and that those who possess intellect may take admonition.

038:029 (

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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other (examples) names of partners in the Quran:

 

1 - sun, moon and star (heavenly bodies) mentioned by Sayidna Ibrahim (as) before he was guided away from shirq

 

6:75 - 6:79

 

2 - Messiah (Prophet) son of Maryam 

 

5:17, 4:171, etc

 

3 - idols (statues) like those created by Ibrahim (as) father

 

6:74

 

4 - people (humans .. people of scripture ) among each other 

 

3:64

 

 

conclusion: prophets, other humans, are also mentioned as potential partners in quran. 

 

 

that alone defeats the idea that those chosen by Allah (like Jesus) can not be partners

 

 

 

_____

_____

 

 

furthermore i do not understand 100% the point of this OP:

 

is it saying that making dua to Prophets and Imams is the same as calling upon Allah?

 

is it saying that worshipping Allah is worshipping the prophets?

 

is it saying that Allah shares His power and heavens and earth with Prophets and Imams? (but they are not partners even though they are partners :wacko:  )

 

is it saying that Allah shares His decision in intercession with partners who are actually not partners?

 

if we group together Allah and the prophet and imams, then how can they not be partners?

 

 

anyway, i can ask more questions to clarify, but i'll stop here for now.

 

______

______

 

 

let me say this statement:

 

When we say Ali waly Allah .. and us being waly of one another, does not mean that human waly is in any way related or comparable to al-Waly. 

 

We can not group al-Waly with a waly like Imam Ali. even if we have a verse saying obey Allah plus others .. or verses saying Allah and others are your waly .. still we can not say Allah has a partner or associate in Him being our Waly. That's why there are verses saying that we have no Waly other than Him.

 

 

 

_____

_____

 

furthermore, i feel like addressing the famous verses here

 

 

 

053:001 In the Name of Allah, the All-beneficent, the All-merciful. By the star when it sets:

053:002 your companion has neither gone astray, nor amiss.
053:003 Nor does he speak out of [his own] desire:
053:004 it is just a revelation that is revealed [to him],

 

 

 

 

 


Argument 4 - 53:2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed (ضل)nor has he erred (غوى)

 ما ضل صاحبكم و ما غوى


 

  • in this verse the Prophet is referred to as someone who was astray then guided:

A - ألم يجدك يتيما فآوى

Did He not find you an orphan and give [you] refuge? 93:6


B - و وجدك ضالّا  فهدى

And He found you lost (ضل) and guided [you], 93:7


.. does that not prove that the statement that the prophet never ever strayed (ضل) in his life wrong?

 

  • then the next proof looks at the same word stray / ضل in another verse, where it is mentioned in the same way for all believers :

C - ما يضل به إلا الفاسقين

And He causes to stray (ضل) not except the defiantly disobedient (fasiqeen), 2:26

.. so we can also be sure that this verse does not mean that all non-fasiqs are never mislead ever:


ما ضل
 

Ma dalla 53:2  ( does not err / stray )

 

 

ما يضل

 

ma yudillu  2:26  ( does not cause to err / stray )

 

 

 

  • Verse showing Allah not straying / ضل. Of course nobody can share this absolute non-straying with Allah, as nobody can compare with Allah in any way.

 

D - قال علمها عند ربي في كتاب لا يضل ربي و لا ينسى

[Moses] said, "The knowledge thereof is with my Lord in a record. My Lord does not go astray (ضل) or forgets." 20:52


.. now we can be sure that Allah does not go astray at all, and that none is partner with him in this. In this verse we can take it to the infinite and absolute extent. But this verse is surely not comparable to 53:2, because nobody compares to Allah.

 

  • All who are following Allah's guidance described as following guidance and not straying:

E - قال اهبطا منها جميعا بعضكم لبعض عدو فإما يأتينكم مني هدى فمن اتبع هداي فلا يضل ولا يشقى

[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise - all, being enemies to one another. And if there should come to you guidance from Me - then whoever follows My guidance will neither go astray (ضلnor suffer. 20:123

.. yet again we can not say that all those who follow guidance of Allah never ever go astray in any way, like Allah. At the same time it would be wrong of course to say only Prophets and Imams are followers of Allah's guidance. All believers are guided by Allah in ranks as well.

 

  • The word used for "err" is also used for Adam. So now we have evidence that Prophet Mohamed was straying at one point, and that Adam erred:

F - 20:121 And Adam disobeyed his Lord and erred  (فغوى)

So according to Quran Prophet Adam did err, and saying prophet Mohamed is infallible, and Adam is not, does not make sense, because the Quran tells us not to differentiate between prophets ( 2:285, 3:84, 4:152)




Argument 5: Nor does he speak out of his desire. 53:3  

و ما ينطق عن الهوى

 

  • this is a general statement like the following ones, not to be taken literally:

A - الذين يوفون بعهد الله و لا ينقضون الميثاق

 Those who fulfill the covenant of Allah and do not break the contract 13:20


.. this verse does not mean that "people of understanding" referred to in previous verse, never ever break any contract ever.


B - كنتم خير أمة أخرجت للناس تأمرون بالمعروف و تنهون عن المنكر

You are the best nation produced for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong 3:110


.. again this verse talks about all muslims, and definitely despite the description here, the muslims don't enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong each and every time, without fail.


C - إن الله مع الذين اتقوا والذين هم محسنون

For Allah is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good. 16:128

 

 

.. does this mean that those whom Allah is with always restrain themselves and only ever do good?

 

 

D - بلى من أسلم وجهه لله وهو محسن فله أجره عند ربه و لا خوف عليهم و لا هم يحزنون

 

 4 - Nay,- whoever submits his whole face to Allah and is a doer of good (muhsinun),- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 2:112

 

 

.. so does it mean that those will be rewarded who always do good without ever doing wrong ever?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

so the above shows again there is no partnership with Allah.

 

 

Saying Prophets and Imams etc are not partners, which means we can make dua to them, ask them for help, because Allah gave them authority over His creations, is like saying: 'we may treat them as partners because they are not partners'

 

but again, above was proven that Jesus is partner for some.

 

regards

Edited by peace seeker II

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Auliya Chosen by Allah swt:

اِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللّٰهُ وَرَسُوْلُهٗ وَالَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِيْنَ يُقِيْمُوْنَ الصَّلٰوةَ وَيُؤْتُوْنَ الزَّكٰوةَ وَهُمْ رٰكِعُوْنَ 55؀5

وَمَنْ يَّتَوَلَّ اللّٰهَ وَرَسُوْلَهٗ وَالَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا فَاِنَّ حِزْبَ اللّٰهِ هُمُ الْغٰلِبُوْنَ 56؀ۧ5

Only Allah, His Messenger, and those who believe and who establish Prayer, pay Zakah, and bow (before Allah) are your allies (Wali). All those who take Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as their Allies (Wali), should remember that the party of Allah will be triumphant. (5:55, 56)

The above verses clarify that all Other than Allah, The Prophet saww, and Imams from Ahl albayt as are Auliya beside Allah and they are partners to Allah swt.

Blasphemy!

بل عباد مكرمون

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Auliya Chosen by Allah swt:

اِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللّٰهُ وَرَسُوْلُهٗ وَالَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِيْنَ يُقِيْمُوْنَ الصَّلٰوةَ وَيُؤْتُوْنَ الزَّكٰوةَ وَهُمْ رٰكِعُوْنَ 55؀5

وَمَنْ يَّتَوَلَّ اللّٰهَ وَرَسُوْلَهٗ وَالَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا فَاِنَّ حِزْبَ اللّٰهِ هُمُ الْغٰلِبُوْنَ 56؀ۧ5

Only Allah, His Messenger, and those who believe and who establish Prayer, pay Zakah, and bow (before Allah) are your allies (Wali). All those who take Allah and His Messenger and those who believe as their Allies (Wali), should remember that the party of Allah will be triumphant. (5:55, 56)

The above verses clarify that all Other than Allah, The Prophet saww, and Imams from Ahl albayt as are Auliya beside Allah and they are partners to Allah swt.

Blasphemy!

بل عباد مكرمون

 

I mean to present this statement which is quite clear:

 

The Auliya Other than Allah swt, The Prophet saww and Masomeen as  are considered as Auliya of Shaitan (who are not chosen by Allah swt).

 

The detail as given under this link:

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030308-praying-Allah-and-calling-others/?p=2804469

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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other (examples) names of partners in the Quran:

 

1 - sun, moon and star (heavenly bodies) mentioned by Sayidna Ibrahim (as) before he was guided away from shirq

 

6:75 - 6:79

 

2 - Messiah (Prophet) son of Maryam 

 

5:17, 4:171, etc

 

3 - idols (statues) like those created by Ibrahim (as) father

 

6:74

 

4 - people (humans .. people of scripture ) among each other 

 

3:64

 

 

conclusion: prophets, other humans, are also mentioned as potential partners in quran. 

 

 

that alone defeats the idea that those chosen by Allah (like Jesus) can not be partners

 

The sun, moon and star were mentioned by the Prophet ibrahim to make the people realize that whatever goes down that cannot be God for worship. The people said Messih is Allah but Messiah did not claim it ever. The people took idols for worship. The people took monks as lords who mentioned that Messiah is Allah. The examples are there but messiah did not ever claim himself to be Allah or God for worship.

The Prophets may be potential partners to Allah but they are not Partners to Allah swt Thy has asked the people to follow and obey them.

 

 

furthermore i do not understand 100% the point of this OP:

 

anyway, i can ask more questions to clarify, but i'll stop here for now.

 

 

The idea is clear as mentioned in the verses of Quran like 13:33, 53:23, 53:19 & 53:20. 

Do the names have not been mentioned in these verses?

 

 

 

if we group together Allah and the prophet and imams, then how can they not be partners?

 

 

let me say this statement:

 

When we say Ali waly Allah .. and us being waly of one another, does not mean that human waly is in any way related or comparable to al-Waly. 

 

We can not group al-Waly with a waly like Imam Ali. even if we have a verse saying obey Allah plus others .. or verses saying Allah and others are your waly .. still we can not say Allah has a partner or associate in Him being our Waly. That's why there are verses saying that we have no Waly other than Him.

 

 

The verse 5:55 mentions that Allah , Prophet and Imams are Wali. Does this verse group them? Does this consider them Partners to Allah?

 

The verses (5:51, 7:27, 18:50 ) clearly describe the Shaitan and his progeny and Jews and Christians are all Auliya not from Alllah swt (or Auliya beside him). And believers should not take Auliya other than believers (verse 4:144, 5:55.). This has been clearly described.

 

Regarding the verses of Sura Al-Najam (53:1, 2, 3), these clear verses were revealed when the Pagans accused the prophet being mislead or madness, Allah swt revealed these verses for his clarification and support so any objections on these are considered false accusation..

 

Regards.

Edited by skamran110

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Salam,

Before we continue this discussion I'd like to mention that the example of Ibrahim a.s. of sun and moon worshipping were rethoric examples to make the polytheists think and not a belief of himself a.s.

Ibrahim a.s. is a Prophet and therefore one of the masumeen.

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Salam,

Before we continue this discussion I'd like to mention that the example of Ibrahim a.s. of sun and moon worshipping were rethoric examples to make the polytheists think and not a belief of himself a.s.

Ibrahim a.s. is a Prophet and therefore one of the masumeen.

 

(wasalam)

 

@ Iskandarovic & skamran110

 

the story of Ibrahim is about Ibrahim saying that the sun, star and moon are his Lord, then realizing they are not so. 

 

that's why Ibrahim a.s. said "This is my Lord (Rabb)" .. this is clear straight forward false statement and i would be interested on what you base that there were even polytheists there while he said the statement.

 

same with skamran110 .. what is the basis of this statement:

 

 

 

The sun, moon and star were mentioned by the Prophet ibrahim to make the people realize

 

because they (sun, moon, star) were not only mentioned, but they were referred to as God.

 

( no matter what the supposed context, such a statement is wrong and signifies partnership in Allah's Oneness ) 

 

 

 

were rethoric examples to make the polytheists think and not a belief of himself a.s.

 

if they were not his beliefs at that moment, then why did he say the false statement of "this is my Lord"? without any indication of anyone around. (nor does he correct it until they set upon realization) do you have hadiths showing this, or is this is made-up opinion which contradicts logic of Quran?

 

 

 

The Prophets may be potential partners to Allah but they are not Partners to Allah swt

 

isn't that contradictory statement? fact is that prophets and people (including rightful imams such as Imam Ali ) can be taken as partners. even if they taught the opposite. ( reality is there are no partners, it's just people's illusion )

 

 

The verse 5:55 mentions that Allah , Prophet and Imams are Wali. Does this verse group them? Does this consider them Partners to Allah?

 

The verses (5:51, 7:27, 18:50 ) clearly describe the Shaitan and his progeny and Jews and Christians are all Auliya not from Alllah swt (or Auliya beside him). And believers should not take Auliya other than believers (verse 4:144, 5:55.). This has been clearly described.

 

Regarding the verses of Sura Al-Najam (53:1, 2, 3), these clear verses were revealed when the Pagans accused the prophet being mislead or madness, Allah swt revealed these verses for his clarification and support so any objections on these are considered false accusation..

 

Regards.

 

just because several names are included in a sentence, does not mean that they are comparable or partners in any way. Allah has no partner in His Kingdom, nor any partners in his Waly-hood. He is al-Waly and al-Malik .. 

 

concerning human wilaya like Ali waley Allah … even if we say Imam Ali is our waly, and prophet mohamed is our waly, and our scholars are our waly, and we follow waly faqih, etc etc , it can not be compared or associated to Allah as al-Waly. 

 

like:

 

Indeed, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; He gives life and causes death. And you have not besides Allah any Waly or any helper. Tawba 116

 

Allah is not contradicting Himself of course, and Allah is not lying by referring to human walis while here apparently saying He's the only Waly. The difference is that they can't be compared simply. Just like Allah owns all the heavens and earth, while the quran discusses inheritance of land and property. Reality is that what we own is 100% owned by Allah, and our own mulk (ownership) is not comparable to the ownership of everything by al-Malik.

 

(same with our guarding others. even though we may guard others, actually it's 100% Allah who guards)

 

Regards

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(wasalam)

 

isn't that contradictory statement? fact is that prophets and people (including rightful imams such as Imam Ali ) can be taken as partners. even if they taught the opposite. ( reality is there are no partners, it's just people's illusion )

 

The people considered Messiah as Allah, but Messiah did neither claim this nor Quran mentioned it, that he is a Partner to Allah swt. This is a clear statement.

 

 

just because several names are included in a sentence, does not mean that they are comparable or partners in any way. Allah has no partner in His Kingdom, nor any partners in his Waly-hood. He is al-Waly and al-Malik .. 

 

The above quoted verses limit the quoted names (as 3) for the Partners to Allah whom people have taken as God / Illah for worship beside Allah. 

 

That's why we should obey Allah swt, the Prophet and Imams from Ahl albayat as per verses 5:55, 56 & 4:59 to avoid those 3 partners. This is also very clear statement.

 

concerning human wilaya like Ali waley Allah … even if we say Imam Ali is our waly, and prophet mohamed is our waly, and our scholars are our waly, and we follow waly faqih, etc etc , it can not be compared or associated to Allah as al-Waly. 

 

like:

 

Indeed, to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth; He gives life and causes death. And you have not besides Allah any Waly or any helper. Tawba 116

 

Allah is not contradicting Himself of course, and Allah is not lying by referring to human walis while here apparently saying He's the only Waly. The difference is that they can't be compared simply. Just like Allah owns all the heavens and earth, while the quran discusses inheritance of land and property. Reality is that what we own is 100% owned by Allah, and our own mulk (ownership) is not comparable to the ownership of everything by al-Malik.

 

(same with our guarding others. even though we may guard others, actually it's 100% Allah who guards)

 

Regards

 

Allah swt is Al-Waly not doubt about it. But he has declared the Prophet and Imams also as our Wali (5:55), This does not contradict any principle of Quran.
 
وَاِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلٰۗىِٕكَةِ اسْجُدُوْا لِاٰدَمَ فَسَجَدُوْٓا اِلَّآ اِبْلِيْسَ ۭ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ اَمْرِ رَبِّهٖ  ۭ اَفَتَتَّخِذُوْنَهٗ وَذُرِّيَّتَهٗٓ اَوْلِيَاۗءَ مِنْ دُوْنِيْ وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ  ۭ بِئْسَ لِلظّٰلِمِيْنَ بَدَلًا  50؀

And recall when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves before Adam"; all of them fell prostrate, except Iblis. He was of the jinn and so disobeyed the command of his Lord. Will you, then, take him and his progeny as your Guardians rather than Me although they are your open enemies? What an evil substitute are these wrong-doers taking  ) 18-50( !

 

Allah swt has also made the Shaiatan and his progeny as Auliya beside Allah, and we should not take Unbelievers as our Auliya instead of believers. (4:144)
 
So this makes a clear difference between the Auliya Chosen by Allah swt and those who are Auliya beside him, This difference needs to be recognized for interpretation of Auliya mentioned in mnay verses of Quran.
 
٤٢_٩  أَمِ ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ مِن دُونِهِۦٓ أَوْلِيَآءَ ۖ فَٱللَّهُ هُوَ ٱلْوَلِىُّ وَهُوَ يُحْىِ ٱلْمَوْتَىٰ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَىْءٍۢ قَدِيرٌۭ

.

[shakir 42:9] Or have they taken Guardians (Auliya) besides Him? But Allah is the Guardian, and He gives life to the dead, and He has power over all things

 
Regards
Edited by skamran110

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The people considered Messiah as Allah, but Messiah did neither claim this nor Quran mentioned it, that he is a Partner to Allah swt. This is a clear statement.

 

Allah has no partners, and the idols also never said they are god, nor the sun or moon or star. After all sun moon and star are devoted servants of God too.

 

the reality is there are no partners.

 

wether they are names uza, or are statues, or stars or suns (I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of Allah) they are not actually partners. uzza is no partner, lat is no partner. this statement is false

 

 

 

What are the Names of the Partners to Allah swt?

 

associate no partners with Him

 

even if they partner somebody with God, it does not mean they are partners. So, if we partner Jesus, uzza, the son or an idol .. they are all partners in our head, but not in reality. that's an illusion, and it's called partnership (shirq) with Allah. 

 

 

 

Allah swt is Al-Waly not doubt about it. But he has declared the Prophet and Imams also as our Wali

 

When Allah says He's our only Waly, that means He's the only One. There is no second or third with the One.

 

the term waly when it comes to humans is different. That's why we have different walys .. good ones, bad ones etc.

 

we can not dismiss the clear verses in the quran that say only Allah is our waly (like the last verse you posted), and chose the ones that say we have more than One, as if they are a team. 

 

it's just like a man saying .. i am Karim . (noble, generous) . it's an infinite difference between saying al Karim.

 

anyway, i am not sure where this is going to exactly.

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The Case of Prophet Ibrahim

http://www.al-islam.org/ismat-infallibiity-of-prophets-in-the-quran-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/case-prophet-ibrahim

Even the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir explains it in favor of Prophet Ibrahim. It says that he a.s. explained tawheed to them (his people) and proved to them that the mentioned objects were not gods.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=994&Itemid=61

Edited by Iskandarovich

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^^^ ok the above article does not include Hadiths which makes it a purely my opinion vs their opinion thing.

However, I believe my opinion is more inline with reality. The article claims that:

"In debates, it is quite common to initially accept the view of your opponent in order to lead him to your own view."

Other than the fact that there is no talk of debate, can anybody get me an example of such a "common" debate? A debate where a prophet or imam pretend by stating that an object is God? If it is "common" way to pretend this, and lie, then it should be easy to find a single example. Not only accepting an idea but witness to falsehood. In case of taqya I understand , but this was obviously not taqya , as he (as) declared his guidance publicly.

The part :

"If you read the first part of the passage where Ibrahim is disputing with his own uncle against idol-worshipping and also Allah's statement that “We were showing…so that he might be of those who are sure [of their faith],” it shows that he was a true believer before he engaged in debate with the idol- and nature-worshippers." Does not make sense, because the verse talks about Ibrahim 'becoming' among the certain. Not as one who has always been among the certain. I don't understand why people don't notice this. This article is written by a mystery person without references to Hadiths. It's ok to freestyle with Quran, but it must make sense at least. We can't just add things that don't exist (a supposed debate) or change things (timing of certainty) like that.

"2. Even the passage where he says, “If my Lord had not guided me, then I shall surely be of the people who have gone astray,” is a conditional statement. It says “if” and “then”. And since the first part did not take place, therefore the second part is not relevant."

Let's speak logic , as this is what the mystery author of al-islam.org is doing (unless I missed his name).

To be guided one must be lost first. Even prophet mohamed was lost then guided

As posted above in more detail see post #2

in this verse the Prophet is referred to as someone who was astray then guided:

A - ألم يجدك يتيما فآوى

Did He not find you an orphan and give [you] refuge? 93:6

B - و وجدك ضالّا فهدى

And He found you lost (ضل) and guided [you], 93:7

So saying that somebody was guided is no proof that they never did anything wrong.

Fact is prophet ibrahim stated that heavenly bodies are his Lord. That's wrong by all standards, and there is no proof that this was to disprove anybody, nor does that make sense .

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Fact is prophet ibrahim stated that heavenly bodies are his Lord. That's wrong by all standards, and there is no proof that this was to disprove anybody, nor does that make sense .

How can Prophet Ibrahim a.s. talk about 'my Lord' while he a.s. according to you still seem to have no clue about who his lord really is in the concerning verses?

And then after his statement in full 'Unless my Lord guides me, I will surely be among the people gone astray' and then immediately after that said 'This is my Lord' when he a.s. saw the sun rising and finally right after sunset 'O my people, indeed I am free of what you associate with Allah' doesn't indicate that he a.s. is searching for truth but that he a.s. already found it before he a.s. gave the three examples of star, moon and sun. 

When you read a littlebit further untill verse 83 you will find the following:

 

That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people: We raise whom we will, degree after degree: for Thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.

 

 

Edited by Iskandarovich

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before he said he's free of what they associate he was still searching. He was looking for his Lord and God showed it to him through the heavens. (That's why he said oh lord before he thought his lord is the sun)

It's beyond doubt clear in the Quran in chronology that first he thought the star moon sun are "my Lord", then he realized the truth. After this he went in to tell everyone , not before .

Logically speaking why would anyone say that the sun was his lord if he didn't believe it? Even if it was a discussion, for which there is no evidence anyway. We all know a prophet would never state that a star is his lord, unless he means it. There is no indication he's lying. Just use your logic and paint a picture if this situation with the evidence that's there.

The argument between him and his father is clearly there, and he does not say this idol is my lord either for discussion purposes.

This is one of the clear verses and I urge you to read it again and see how it's straight forward and we can't add things that aren't there.

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Peace

Brother, the tafsir is a science and there are many schools in that science.

Best of schools is tafsir using athar or traditions

التفسير بالأثر

And worst of schools is tafsir by ra'i or opinion

التفسير بالرأي

What you did, is tafsir using your opinion or if we are to be gentle, what you did was tafsir as per zahir or the apparent meaning

But imam ridha was asked about these verses and he gave a diffrent understanding

(79) إني وجهت وجهي للذي فطر السموات والارض حنيفا وما أنا من المشركين : في العيون : عن الرضا عليه السلام أنه سأل المأمون فقال : له يا ابن رسول الله أليس من قولك أن الأنبياء معصومون قال : بلى . قال : فأخبرني عن قول الله عز وجل : ( فلما جن عليه الليل رأى كوكبا قال هذا ربي ) فقال الرضا عليه السلام : إن إبراهيم عليه السلام وقع إلى ثلاثة أصناف : صنف يعبد الزهرة ، وصنف يعبد القمر ، وصنف يعبد الشمس ، وذلك حين خرج من السرب (1) الذي أخفى فيه فلما جن عليه الليل رأى الزهرة قال : ( هذا ربي ) على الأنكار والأستخبار ( فلما أفل ) الكوكب قال : ( لا أحب الافلين ) لأن

الافول من صفات المحدث لا من صفات القديم ( فلما رآى القمر بازغا قال هذا ربي ) على الأنكار والأستخبار ( فلما أفل قال عليه السلام لئن لم يهدني ربي لأكونن من القوم الضالين ) فلما أصبح ( ورآى الشمس بازغة قال هذا ربي هذا أكبر ) من الزهرة والقمر ، على الأنكار والأستخبار لا على الأخبار والأقرار ( فلما أفلت قال ) للأصناف الثلاثة من عبدة الزهرة والقمر والشمس : ( يا قوم إني بريء مما تشركون إني وجهت وجهي للذي فطر السموات والأرض حنيفا وما أنا من المشركين ) وإنما أراد إبراهيم عليه السلام بما قال : أن يبين لهم بطلان دينهم ويثبت عندهم أن العبادة لخالقها وخالق السموات والأرض وكان ما احتج به على قومه ما ألهمه الله وآته كما قال تعالى : ( وتلك حجتنا آتيناها إبراهيم على قومه نرفع درجات من نشاء ) ، فقال المأمون : لله درك يا ابن رسول الله .

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^^^ we are to hold on to thaqalayn, which are quran and hadith. 

 

just like Imam Ali told Malik al Ashtar, we are to read Quran .. and not Tafsir of Quran, then Quran.

 

what people are believing here is that we must use Hadiths first, and then Quran. As if it's safer to use hadiths to understand the Quran.

 

What we are told very clearly on other occasions too, is that hadiths that contradict quran should be discarded. Of course modern shias (with all due respect) will discard Quran verses and change their apparent obvious meaning, because they find hadiths that contradict it.

 

did Imam Ali tell Malik al Ashtar to read his tafsir of verses, then read the hadiths? Here is what he said in one of the most well-known hadiths. i believe it, even though it's nahjul balagha, because it's in line with quran logic, as well as the thaqalayn hadiths. and keep in mind that quran is mentioned as the heaver one. therefore we read quran first, then any hadith.

 

 

 

The way to turn to Allah is to act diligently according to the clear and explicit orders given in His Holy Book and to the turn to the Holy Prophet (s) means to follow those of his orders about which there is no doubt and ambiguity and which have been generally accepted to be correctly recorded.

 

 

 

now, people come and say: "it's haram to take clear verses of Quran the way they are, but it's ok to take hadiths that contradict those clear verses" .. as if the hadiths are more reliable or safe .. especially if some scholar labeled it as 'sahih', then that's a green light to ignore clear verses. 

 

here are hadiths that i believe in, and that will destroy any hadith that contradicts the quran:

 

 

H 197, Ch. 22, h 1

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from al-Nawfali from al-Sakuni from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"The holy Prophet (s.a.), "Over every truth there is a reality and above every valid issue there is light. Whatever agrees with the holy Quran you must follow it and whatever does not agree disregard it."

 

 

 

H 199, Ch. 22, h 3

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from his father from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya al-Halab from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr who has said the following.
"Abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Everything must be referred to the holy Quran and the Sunnah, the noble traditions of the holy Prophet (s.a.) and any Hadith that does not agree with the holy Quran it is a useless statement.’"

 

H22. Ch. 22, h3

 

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn 'Isa from ibn Faddal from Ali ibn 'Uqba from Ayyub ibn Rashid from abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.

 

"Of Hadiths whatever does not agree with the holy Quran is a useless statement."

 

H 201, Ch. 22, h 5

Muhammad ibn ’Isma‘il from al-Fadl ibn Shadhan from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hisham ibn al- Hakam and others from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following.
"The holy Prophet once addressed the people in Mina (a place in Makkah) saying, "O people, whatever comes to you in the form of my Hadith you must see if it agrees with the holy book of Allah then know that I have said it but whatever comes to you that does not agree with the book of Allah then know that I have not said it."

 

 

what i find peculiar is that people never talk about how hadiths contradict with quran. i respect ilm rijal, which checks if narrators are trustworthy, but nobody ever says "oh this contradicts quran".

 

i will go with the above hadiths that make sense, and set quran free from hadiths. Saying that we are not allowed to read Quran independently and understand its clear verses, but it's ok to read hadiths independently and understand those, does not make sense.

 

Now, not only are we to use the Quran verses that are clear as a sledge hammer against any hadith that contradicts it, but also logic.

 

Now, claiming that the prophet would lie and say something is his Lord for discussion purpose does not make any sense, as well as there being no evidence from the quran. just think of it: would a prophet ever give false testimony to shirq consciously? what if he dies right after? do prophets or imams lie like this on purpose, even if it is for a non-existent discussion? answer honestly, and forget about mainstream here for a second.

 

just like people use this verse to prove he was always among the certain, when it's obvious that Allah showed him the skys that he would become among the certain. 

 

And thus did We show Abraham the realm of the heavens and the earth that he would be among the certain 

 

i mean, just with logic! isn't it 100% clear obvious without a doubt that (1) Allah showed Abraham the heavens and earth .. (2) so that he may be among the certain?  

 

it does not say Allah showed him, that the people around him would be among the certain. Or, as some people claim: that Allah showed him, that he may have an argument among the people.

 

This is is something i won't do. I won't sell any verses for sake of a hadith that kills the obvious clear straight forward meaning of quran. i don't mind taking a hadith and believing in it if it's in line with the super-clear verses. 

 

so, yes i judge according to opinion based on Quran .. then hadiths that don't contradict quran, and have solid narrators.

 

 

and i've seen many instances on this site where even proving that a narration is weak will not change people's mind. so we have something that contradicts quran, has weak narrators, and people still believe it.

 

but CM, i wonder just for fun what about this narration above: is it strong or weak according to rijalists?


even though it's worth mentioning that i've experienced rijalists contradicting scholars in "authenticity" of dua ziara for instance. 

 

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction. 4:82


the mentality of 

 

(1) reading hadiths about quran

(2) maybe quran, but you can believe in hadiths that contradict quran

(3) read hadiths

 

 

it's basically turning the thaqalayn into hadiths and hadiths … (instead of quran and hadiths)

 

verses are always more reliable than any hadith /tafsir

 

and what i means by verses, is the clear verses that are self-explanatory and simple.


i read in a hadith that in judgment day the quran will pass by us in the form of a beautiful man, and our judgment will be linked to our relationship to him. I wouldn't want to explain that i discarded clear verses for some human hadiths that directly contradict the verses. everybody is free to do that, and read quran via hadiths, and hadiths via hadiths .. but i won't do that. i 'll read quran via quran, and hadiths via quran. in sha Allah

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sister, 

 

i am very uncompromisingly stubborn about something that contradicts mainstream of today ( but is in line with thaqalayn ):

 

 

 

namely:

 

i read ( 1-  quran ) and ( 2 - hadiths that don't contradict quran )

 

 

unlike people who read:

 

( 1 - hadiths about quran ) , and ( 2 - hadiths )

 

 

 

 

 

put in a different way:

 

 

 

i use quran lens to see hadith

 

 

i don't use hadith lens to see quran

 

 

:)


peace! and the mercy of Allah and His blessings ..

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Prophet Ibrahim a.s. gave us an example of using logic and stages one goes through when investigating the concept of polytheism. 

He is actually stimulating the people to use their reason instead of following him blindly and so we can see that any one who uses reason will come to the same conclusion as reason is a gift and hidayat from Allah. 

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Personally speaking, to me it is clear Prophet ibhrarim a.s is playing devils advocate to refute those who believe those things can be God. I do not believe an ulul-azam prophet, an imam of mankind whose progeny is blessed, an intelligent prophet could commit shirk and have such baseless intelligence.

 

However, coming back to the topic of the thread, are you trying to tell us all the only difference between the shirk of the pagans and what you feel is acceptable is the pagans took Idols as partners to Allah swt, whereas it would be acceptable to ascribe imams a.s as partners to him?

 

I feel it is incumbent of me to speak out, and no doubts will there be posters who will attack me, but is it not apparent just how much ghuluw there is in our communities? Ghuluw only drives people away from the school of ahlulbayt a.s by injecting false doctrines into the madhab.

 

Allah swt has no partners.

Edited by Tawheed313

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However, coming back to the topic of the thread, are you trying to tell us all the only difference between the shirk of the pagans and what you feel is acceptable is the pagans took Idols as partners to Allah swt, whereas it would be acceptable to ascribe imams a.s as partners to him?

 

 

Allah swt has no partners.

 

Brother this is very confusing statement by you.

The simple answer has already been quoted earlier in post no. 1, (as given below):

 

 

Thus to avoid these partners we should obey Allah swt, the Prophet and Imams from Ahl albayt as as given under verses ( like 5:55, 56 and 4:59).
 
The discussion can be concluded by the following verse:
 
٣٨_٢٩ كِتَٰبٌ أَنزَلْنَٰهُ إِلَيْكَ مُبَٰرَكٌۭ لِّيَدَّبَّرُوٓا۟ ءَايَٰتِهِۦ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ أُو۟لُوا۟ ٱلْأَلْبَٰبِ
 
[This is] a blessed Book that We have sent down to you, so that they may contemplate its signs, and that those who possess intellect may take admonition.
038:029 (
 
Regards

 

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Brother Tawheed ,

 

The thing is that to reach true Tawhid we should obey Ahlulbayt and accept their welayat :

 

Surely following Allah - true Tawhid - has its conditions :

 

As we have in hadith selselatol zahab, no one can reach لا اله الا الله expect through testimony to Ahlulbayt's welayat:

 

کَلِمَةُ لا إلهَ إلّا اللّهُ حِصنی فَمَن دَخَلَ حِصنی اَمِنَ مِن عَذابی بِشُروطِها وَ أنَا مِن شُروطِها

 

Or another narration from Imam baqir and Imam Sediq :

 

 

وَلَایَتُنَا وَلَایَةُ اللَّهِ الَّتِی لَمْ یَبْعَثْ نَبِیّاً قَطُّ إِلَّا بِه

 

Our welayat is Allah's and all the Anbiya have been sent through that welayat

 

کلینی، محمد بن یعقوب‏، الکافی، ج1، ص437؛ صفار، محمد بن حسن، بصائرالدرجات، ص75

 

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Quran: "If you are afflicted by hardships in the middle of the sea, it would be an error to call anyone other than Him for help. When God saves you from such difficulties, you turn away from Him. The human being has always been ungrateful."

 

Muhammed Sarwar translation

 

Can Allah swt get any clearer?

 

Should Allah swt, our creator, not be sufficient for us to call upon, rely on, cry to and depend on?

Edited by Tawheed313

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^ Brother you are using Quran verses like Wahabis are.

 

Surely Allah is sufficient. But it doesn't mean when you are seeking wasila for help you mean Allah is not sufficient. It doesn't mean when Prophet Yaqoub's son asked their father and their father accepted their request, They meant Allah was not sufficient.

 

We should see all the Quran verses altogether.

 

الیس الله بکاف عبده

 

وابتغوا الیه الوسیله

 

Can you brother tawheed, answer my questions regarding points above:

 

1. Why seeking wasila (وابتغوا الیه الوسیله) when Allah is sufficient (الیس الله بکاف عبده) ?

 

2. Why didn't Prophet Yaqoub say to his sons " Allah is sufficient, don't call me to ask Allah for your sins , ask Allah directly " ?

 

I think two question above, out of many, can prove that you are not correct in interpretation of word " Sufficient " ?

 

May Allah grant us basirat and marefat.

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Quran: "If you are afflicted by hardships in the middle of the sea, it would be an error to call anyone other than Him for help. When God saves you from such difficulties, you turn away from Him. The human being has always been ungrateful."

 

Muhammed Sarwar translation

 

Can Allah swt get any clearer?

 

Should Allah swt, our creator, not be sufficient for us to call upon, rely on, cry to and depend on?

Salam brother

Reminds of the story where a man in the sea rejected all the help from sailors to save him and said,Allah will help me,I'll wait.

After he died,he asked why Allah didn't help him.Answer is,there were sailors send from God to help you but you rejected.

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Salam brother

Reminds of the story where a man in the sea rejected all the help from sailors to save him and said,Allah will help me,I'll wait.

After he died,he asked why Allah didn't help him.Answer is,there were sailors send from God to help you but you rejected.

 

Walaikumsalam,

 

Dear sister,

 

Allah swt has created the universe and instilled in it a system of division of labour. He gives life and takes death, but through an angel. He granted help to the early muslims in battles by fortifying them at times with angels. It was truly Allah swt who ultimately helped through these things.

 

Indeed, Allah swt also accepts the intercession of whom he permits.

 

However, in almost all the hadiths coming to us from rasullulah s.a.w and our imams a.s we are taught , in times of need, when our lives our in danger, when we fear not to shout 'Ya Ali' , rather, when you are at your weakest, when you fear the most, you should shout 'Ya Allah'.

 

In the middle of the night, alone in ones own room with the stresses of every day life, one should cry  to Allah swt, like a child crying to its mother. The purpose of Dua is to form a relationship with Allah swt, to make oneself able to receive his divine mercy, to make one understand to him we ultimately rely.

 

So supplicate your needs to the ones our Imams a.s taught us to supplicate our needs to, and if he chooses to help you through an angel, a man rescuing you with a boat, accept that help but understand the first name you uttered from your mouth was the name of Allah swt, whom you seek divine help in corporeal and existential as well as all matters.

 

Ask him for the sake of those whose intercession he permits, for the sake of Muhammed and ale muhammed a.s.

 

Kitab Al Kafi - Volume 2

H 3368, CH 55, h 7

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from

‘Uthman ibn ‘Isa from Sama'a from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme

covenant, who has said the following:

 

I have highlighted for you the portion to recite, with the English translation

 

29kvy36.png

 

 

 

“When you are afraid of something say, ‘O Lord, no one is an alternative for You and You are the alternative for everyone of Your creatures, suffice me in such and such matters.’”

 

 

 

 

 

sol4ky.png

 

“In another Hadith the Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has instructed to say this, ‘O the One who suffices in everything and nothing is sufficient for Him in the heavens and earth, suffice me in what is important to me of worldly and the hereafter and bestow al-Salat (favors) upon Muhammad and his family.’

 

 

 

t05fs6.png

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has also said, ‘If anyone feels apprehensive in the presence of a ruler, he should say, “By the help of Allah, I seek conquest, by the power of Allah I will achieve success and through Muhammad, recipient of divine supreme covenant, I turn to (Allah). O Lord, ease up his difficult attitude for me, and soften for me his hardheartedness; You delete what You will, and establish. With You there is the original book.” Also say, ‘Allah is sufficient for me, no one deserves to be worshipped except Allah and I place my trust in Allah. He is the Lord of the Great Throne, through the means of Allah and His power I seek (from Allah) to prevent their means and power (from harming me), I seek prevention by the Lord, who opens up the dawn, against the evil of what He has created, there are no means and no power without Allah.’”

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Brother Tawheed ,

 

The thing is that to reach true Tawhid we should obey Ahlulbayt and accept their welayat :

 

 

Quran: "If you are afflicted by hardships in the middle of the sea, it would be an error to call anyone other than Him for help. When God saves you from such difficulties, you turn away from Him. The human being has always been ungrateful."

 

 

Whenever it is mentioned that we should obey the Prophet and Ahl albayt as, the verses are brought for describing the Tauheed , this is tricky game we are facing from extremists within shias or outside from them. Acceptance of wilayah does not deny Tauheed, Allah swt has chosen the Prophet saww and his Ahl albayt as our Wali, we have not chosen them  ourselves.

 

And we are all muslims.

 

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Whenever it is mentioned that we should obey the Prophet and Ahl albayt as, the verses are brought for describing the Tauheed , this is tricky game we are facing from extremists within shias or outside from them. Acceptance of wilayah does not deny Tauheed, Allah swt has chosen the Prophet saww and his Ahl albayt as our Wali, we have not chosen them  ourselves.

 

And we are all muslims.

 

 

Regards

 

Indeed. 

 

Not only Acceptance of welayah doesn't deny Tawhid but it is a requirement for that.

Br.Tawheed,what about this aya?

"O ye who believe! Fear Allah and search for a Wasila (mediation) towards Him and strive in His path on that hope that you will gain refuge." (Chapter 5 Verse 35)"

 

Yes brother tawheed, what about this ayah when Allah is sufficient ?

 

Is it a contradiction in Quran or you are misinterpreting its verses bro !?

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They might be walys but they are not al-Waly. you guys want to say that prophet mohamed Ali and Allah are al-Waly. 

 

there is an infinite incomparable difference between al-Waly and a waly. nobody seems to want to acknowledge this fact. Or you guys are saying that Allah has partners (shariq)?

 

this verse does not say anything about dua: "Fear Allah and search for a Wasila (mediation) towards Him"

 

how can we say that wasila is dua to ahlulbayt? that is adding something that is not there. As i've said many times, and everybody is ignoring it again, verses 17:56 - 17:57, which actually talk about Wasila and how dua to others than Allah is not part of it. 

 

you see, that is direct evidence in reference to "wasila". verse 5:35 doesn't even talk about dua to start with. 

 

 

for us the people who take partners in their dua to Allah are the extreme ones, so the word "extremist" is very subjective here, and of no use. It's rather a label that is meant to insult and provoke. This will not add to the conversation.

 

acceptance of Wilaya is not guarantee that it's in line with Tawheed. Because if somebody for instance loves the waly Allah more than al-Waly (and doesn't differentiate between them … partnering Allah with others), then that for instance means that officially he accepts wilaya, but his love for Allah is partnered and destroys the oneness.

 

Also believing in wilaya does not mean one believes in making duas to others than Allah. (actually Wilaya means we follow sunnah of al waly Allah .. which is to make dua only to Allah )

 

so, again, can somebody say what those verses are about, where Allah says only to make dua to Him? And that those that don't commit shirq? isn't that scary for those who make "dua" to others than God? To me it would be.

 

Furthermore, people who say Allah shares (yushrik / shirk) His Names with His creations, by saying that Ali Mohamed are His Names, and that Allah shares His Kingdom .. then that is called sharing /partnering /shirk .. of His Names, of His Kingdom. That is just pure logic here. If you feel this applies to you personally, then that is your own conclusion based on your beliefs, and no need to make drama about accusations or labels.


Br.Tawheed,what about this aya?
"O ye who believe! Fear Allah and search for a Wasila (mediation) towards Him and strive in His path on that hope that you will gain refuge." (Chapter 5 Verse 35)"

 

as was mentioned above, the word Wasila is not dua to others (17:56-57) and we can probably say for sure that the only thing it's not is dua to others than Allah .. so how can we go 180 degrees against Quran and take for granted it is just that? very peculiar indeed. We have hadiths describing wasila which is obedience to God .. obviously a means to closeness to God is all that is good, and not "dua to others than Allah", which is clearly prohibited in Quran. 


i want to ask to all the people here on this tread including the OP:

 

are you saying that Allah shares / shirk His Names with others? Are you saying that when Allah says make only dua to Him, He meant that He shares / shirk this position with others? Then why not also worship or pray to ahlulbayt, because Quran says worship only Allah .. so that would mean worship Allah and others .. 

 

so, here in this verse ..

 

Say, "Indeed, I have been forbidden to worship those you invoke (dua) besides Allah ." Say, "I will not follow your desires, for I would then have gone astray, and I would not be of the guided." 5:46

 

"those you invoke beside Allah" does not include Imam Ali for instance? because Imam Ali is Allah or something? The only logic in saying that "beside Allah" does not include Imam Ali, would be to say that Allah is Ali. It makes no sense. don't you guys get scared when you read verses like that? Please give explanation to the above verse 5:46. Does Allah share in His existence and Name such as Allah. Are Ali and ahlulbayt Allah to you? It seems so. Otherwise, how can you explain this verse?

 

قل إنما أدعو ربي و لا أشرك به أحدا

 

 

Say, "Surely I invoke ( make duas to) my Lord, and I do not associate with Him anyone." 72:20

 

please an explanation!! Are Ahlulbayt your Rabb? Your Lord?

Edited by peace seeker II

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Every muslim believes in Making Dua only to Allah swt . This has been quoted many times.

 

But every calling is not Dua to any one other than Allah.  Other than or beside Allah condition applies only if some one is taken as Illah / God for worship other than Allah. No muslim does it .

 

Best wasila are Ahl albayat as for making Dua to Allah. This is a proven fact.

 

We do have many things common in our approach and few are differences

 

Regards..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

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i fully understand the mentality, although i was still hopping to find the hadith used as an argument that "duas to the martyred ahlulbayt is the best wasila" .. to see why you see it as a fact. because there are other hadiths claiming that the best wasila is obedience to God etc.

 

i understand the argument that you are saying it's only shirq if someone calls upon somebody they themselves call "god(s)". I think that is the argument here. Now, that you consider Ahlulbayt as not being gods officially, you think calling upon them spiritually is not a form of "dua" as per Quran.

 

Well, let us see these verses:

 

Indeed, those you call upon (make duas to ) besides Allah are (abd) servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful. 7:194 

 

so, you see according to the above verse, people call upon other than Allah slaves/sevants like ourselves, and so surely the people know this. But if this verse is not enough then let us look at this one:

 

i think we've discussed this one before, but i don't remember if i got a response to this proof

 

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors (bringers of shifa'a) with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him 10:18

 

the above verse shows clearly that people people can "worship" others than Allah, by referring to them as "intercessors with Allah" .. and not as "gods" .. 

 

then, we have Allah Himself in the Quran does not always refer to those partners as gods … but simply as 'partners/associators' . Also partners in dua as well:

 

Then it will be said to them, "Where is that which you used to associate [with Him] 40:73

 

Other than Allah ?" They will say, "They have departed from us; rather, we did not used to invoke (make duas to) previously anything." Thus does Allah put astray the disbelievers. 40:74

 

by the way, if you read the previous verses of the two above verses 40:73 - 74 .. it describes a really bad ending for those guys, including boiling water, fire and shackles around the neck ..

 

it's quite scary and may Allah prevent us from being one of them, and not invoke others than Allah.

 

honestly i hope that our difference is small and that our similarities are many. I believe we have much in common, and that Allah forgives our shortcomings. I know that Allah forgives our mistakes done in ignorance, however for me personally i can not get over how simple and straight forward this is in the quran. And the more i argue and debate this, the more i get convinced. There is so few evidence against it and all the evidence for it. All, except for a few hadiths that go against the majority of hadiths and above all the Quran. We all have to make our own decision and choices .. and arguing about something mainstream with a group of hundreds of millions who accept an idea is kind of like a mission impossible. But i've been doing it for years, and there are some who see it this way too. It's a very easy case to make, especially when considering the word dua in the Quran, and in relation to what dua means (supplication). But anyway, i am interested to see any evidence that speaks against it, including the supposed "fact" that the best wasila is duas to martyred ahlulbayt members.

 

thanks and regards .. have a nice ramadan

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