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In the Name of God بسم الله
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faridov

Debate Invitation

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(salam)

 

I remember reading a hadith from Al-Dhahabi(ra) narrated from Aljuwanyi(ra) reports from ibn abbas (ra)(?): that the Nabi (SAW) said that Imam Ali (as) will be the chief of successors where there will be twelve, in which Imam Ali (as) is the first and the last being Imam Mahdi (AJ) will be the last.

 

This reflects the shia interpretation of the twelve imams, at least in regards to their lineage, the next Imams (as) follow in between Imam Ali (as) and Imam Mahdi (AJ).

 

I cant say this is concrete proof but proving Imammate from Sunni sources is a difficult task especially when there have been incidents in the past (one of which is referenced by video brother thecontendedself posted) where there have been deletions in Sunni hadiths or Alterations to suit the intrepretation of Sunni islam that the twelve Caliphs are relatively unknown as to who they could be leaving a question mark regarding this mutawatir hadith.  Allahu ya3lam.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by kbsquare

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Alsalam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

I'm sure that many of you by know have noticed that the debate between me and Abu Hadi has ended.

For those that are not aware of it, you can find it here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235030534-debate-on-imamah-on-shiachat/

Abu Hadi, may Allah bless his heart, was one of the few with courage to accept to debate me on the topic of the Imamah of the Twelve. Unfortunately, we could not come to terms and after 56 posts, we both decided that it was best to call an end to it.

I thereby extend this debate invitation to the rest of my brothers here on Shiachat. Please prove to me that I am supposed to follow the Twelve Imams that you choose to follow.

My conditions are the same as they were in the past.

- It is a one on one debate.

- I do not require a moderator to approve of my posts.

- The topic is not to be changed to the Imamah of Ali, since I concede this point, for the debate is about the Imamah of the rest of the Imams.

- Any challenger will need an endorsement of two moderators. This rule extends to moderators and admins as well, for they will need two endorsements too.

The debate will take place on Shiachat.

Jazakum Allah khairan on your patience and may Allah guide us all.

Salaam

 

If you accept the Imamah of Ali a.s then i would like to debate with you about the rest 11 p.b.u.t

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I remember reading a hadith from Al-Dhahabi(ra) narrated from Aljuwanyi(ra) reports from ibn abbas (ra)(?): that the Nabi (SAW) said that Imam Ali (as) will be the chief of successors where there will be twelve, in which Imam Ali (as) is the first and the last being Imam Mahdi (AJ) will be the last.

 

plz provide the source with arabic matan

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Guys we need to be serious.

 

Fine, there is hadith that there will be 12 caliphs in his nation. There is hadith that there will be 12 imams in this nation.

 

But straight after this so called proof, you standing face to face with any other group that will pick up 12 names that they preffer.

 

And there is only your assumption against their.

 

We do believe that our beloved prophet  (pbuh) will never keep silence on the matter that can put someone out from the Islam. You guys claim that each and everyone who doesn't believe in the Imamate of 12 shia Imams is disbeliever.

 

 

I am not talking about each and every Imam. Proof Imamate of Hasan al-Askari from hadith regarding 12 Imams. 

Do you have anything on your hands apart from fact that he was nominated by yourself like 11 Imam?

Edited by Abu_Rumaysah

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We do believe that our beloved prophet  (pbuh) will never keep silence on the matter that can put someone out from the Islam.

 

That is based on the false assumption that the hadith sources and religious books contain everything the holy Prophet (pbuh) ever said. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence otherwise. Like that of king Mansur I. In fact, human history, the preIslamic history is full of sad manipulations of Abrahamic religions by the clergy and the monarchs. And history repeats itself.

 

This unconscious assumption that "everything is present in our hadith / religious books" is quite damaging for the spiritual progress of individuals of any organized religion who assume such things and ignore rationality ('aql).

Truth be told, there are no religions on this earth more comprehensive or better than Shia Islam.

Edited by Darth Vader

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That is based on the false assumption that the hadith sources and religious books contain everything the holy Prophet (pbuh) ever said. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence otherwise. Like that of king Mansur I. In fact, human history, the preIslamic history is full of sad manipulations of Abrahamic religions by the clergy and the monarchs. And history repeats itself.

 

This unconscious assumption that "everything is present in our hadith / religious books" is quite damaging for the spiritual progress of individuals of any organized religion who assume such things and ignore rationality ('aql).

Truth be told, there are no religions on this earth more comprehensive or better than Shia Islam.

 

So you preffer to believe in something that doesn't exist in Islamic religious books?

And how do you believe in it? Base on what? Desire? Logic? What is next in this case? Martians created the Earth and inhabitants? 

 

 

Anyway it is good for you to confirm another time, that details of so called believe in12 Imams are not in religious books. 

 

No religion better than shia Islam? What about giving clear evidences for such claims?

 

Let us imagine situation that you guys giving dawah to any illeterate man on the earth. You will tell him he need to believe in 12 Imams. And for sure you would explain them name by name, to avoid any confusion from his side. You would do that.  But Allah didn't meantioned them, prophet (saws) didn't mentioned them. How on the earth we suppose to believe in this so called pillar of shia religion?

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Belief in the 12 Imams (as) is correct, and it is both in Sunni and Shia sources, but since the so called "Sunnism" is man made religion, which accept tyrants as 'Caliphs', and was conrolled by them [tyrants], and made to their own religion, while the Quran makes it clear, that Allah is the one, who appoints the 'Caliph'. You can understand, why there is not so much about the 12 Imams (as) , and so much confusion in Sunni sources. Not to mention, that they feared to become Rafidi and narrate the truth from Ahl al-Bayt (as)!

Ahmad ibn Hanbal:

 

Narrated to me Muhammad ibn Abdullah from Aboo Dawood from Shu'ba who said: "Verily Al-Hakam narrated to us from Abdul Rahman ibn Abi Layli from Alee (a.s) he narrated things that if I narrate them to you, you will dance (i.e. Lataraqqastum), but by Allah [swt] I will never narrate them to you."

 

And narrated to us Mahmoud ibn Ghilan likewise, and he said instead: "You will become Rafidhi (i.e. Lataraffadhtum)."

 

Source: Ilal Wa Ma'rifatul Rijal. Pg. # 354.

Edited by Rasul

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So you preffer to believe in something that doesn't exist in Islamic religious books?

 

If the truth is not to be found in the books with you then you have to search in other books.

In fact, first, your creed should reconcile its doctrine with the noble Quran and make it according to our holy book. Read the verses of khums, ablutions and all the others and try to incorporate its teachings into your religious practices.

 

If you are able to contemplate then you will agree that thats what happens to boats without a rudder to correct its heading. This rudder and navigation control system of the ship of your creed is missing. It has to be none other but a divinely appointed representative of Allah and His holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh). We, the Shia, remained with the ahl al-bayt (as) and we have the guidance and the codex we need.

 

Your buddy, faridov, wants every proof from Sunni texts. That's not going to happen. Already you people have had so many nasibis and political opposition through Islamic history that today you have 48 surviving hadiths from Imam Ali (as) and several thousands attributed to little known last minute Jewish revert like Abu Huraira and a teenage girl who instigated the first civil war among Muslims and who has a whole chapter in the noble Quran (Surah Tehreem) for her condemnation.

 

Clearly, yours is the "other" side. If it possessed hadiths of Imamate and names of 12 Imams then it would not take 1400 years for you guys to realize and solve this issue. In fact, you lot would not have deviated and jumped from aqeedah to aqeedah. From Jabriya to Qadriya to Khawarij to Mutazilla to the four Sunni religions to Wahabi to Salafi to Deobandi to Barelvi to who knows what else.

 

Then most of you with knowledge aren't even sincere with finding the truth anyway. You are all certain that you are on truth. Well... why don't you wait, then? We're also waiting.

Edited by Darth Vader

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Interesting, so you feel a debate is worthy with these people; merely, because of their usage of constant laughter and mockery?

Is the sign of well-learned individual laughter and mockery? What do you hope to gain by debating such an individual? I assure you, someone who is laughing and overtly using gheeba is not listening.

Bro this is not about discussion and or debating. This is about someone or anyone challenging and or threatening your faith and belief. No one said that one should engage in to discussion or get in to debate with anyone. But there has to be and should be some kind of response or reply to the challenge and or threat being made. This is the net and we have audience, viewers, the common and average folk from different schools of thought and belief watching and viewing. Now if you want to stay silent and keep quiet and send the wrong message to the audience/viewers, to the common and average folk then that is down to you. At least back and support those who do respond and reply and if you can't or don't want to then please don't come out with such comments which are not helpful in anyway what so ever.

They support, assist, help and aid each other, they Raleigh around each other and for all the wrong reasons. The Shia can't even do this for all the right reasons. You know that Shias lack in unity and support from their own kind. Very bitter but true. This is not about discussing and debating but about the audience and viewers, it's about the common and average folk and mostly about your own belief and faith. This is not about getting them to listen, to try and convince them and getting them to admit and or agree. This is about you and your Aqeedah. If you feel that weak and light, if you are not that sure about yourself and your Aqeedah then by all means stay silent. But those who feel and think different let them do their duty and job which everyone believes in.

Edited by Ameen

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So you preffer to believe in something that doesn't exist in Islamic religious books?

And how do you believe in it? Base on what? Desire? Logic? What is next in this case? Martians created the Earth and inhabitants? 

 

 

Anyway it is good for you to confirm another time, that details of so called believe in12 Imams are not in religious books. 

 

No religion better than shia Islam? What about giving clear evidences for such claims?

 

Let us imagine situation that you guys giving dawah to any illeterate man on the earth. You will tell him he need to believe in 12 Imams. And for sure you would explain them name by name, to avoid any confusion from his side. You would do that.  But Allah didn't meantioned them, prophet (saws) didn't mentioned them. How on the earth we suppose to believe in this so called pillar of shia religion?

The non Muslims, who ever and what ever they may be, how would you convince them or how would you tell them about Allah and Tawheed when they do not believe in Quran and Hadiths??? How would you convince them that Muhammad (pbuh) is Allah's man (Abd) and the Quran is Allah's book??? What would you say to them???

And the question which you have ran from and failed to respond, can you prove to the Christians from the book of Allah (the bible), the book that both Muslims and Christians believe in that Jesus wasn't crucified??? Can you prove this from the Bible??? If not then why not??? The Bible is also the book of Allah and before Muhammad (pbuh) and the Quran, it was the Bible that applied and was the book of Allah in place. Now why were people left to believe in the crucifixion of Jesus because this is what happened and what they saw and witnessed, for thousands of years until Muhammad (pbuh) and the Quran???

Why didn't Allah mention it in the Bible and made it simpler and easier???

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Abu_Rumaysah

Who do you prefer as your leader? A man chosen by Allah or a man chosen by people? 

The whole Quran is about guidance by those who were chosen by Allah and who did not act on own  authority or that of the majority of the people. 

The question is rather to proof from the quran that there were self-proclaimed leaders who acted on own authority and that of the people. 

And if I have to belief in Twelve Imams appointed by Allah and not by people or in elections or other political means that were mere human and put people in charge then the choice is easily made. 

One thing is for sure, none of your caliphs were appointed by Allah (as caliphs, not imams). And that even counts for Imam Amir al-mumineen a.s. and Imam Hassan a.s. 

 

Edited by Iskandarovich

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