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In the Name of God بسم الله

Will Imam Ali A.s Decide Who Goes To Heaven Or Not

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Salamunalaikum,

 

It seems this is a view held by some shias, and i won't name names.

 

The truth of the matter is, it is a false and corrupt belief. It really needs to be addressed. Those speakers who say these things ought to be prudent and explicitly state what Imam Ali a.s being the divider means, and how this is metaphorical, and not that he literally out of his own will chooses and grants jannah and jahanam.

 

Ali a.s will not be granting jannah and jahanam. It is Allah who will be doing this, and those who he permits to intercede will intercede only by his leave and command.

 

The Prophet and Imams a.s do not have full ilm al ghayb, do not possess the ability to be the most just, the most merciful. How can they then be classed as those who will decide?

 

This is not Qiyas. It's fundamental aqeedah we all agree on.

 

It is solely Allah swt who will be the judge of that:

 

Daleel:

 

Quran: Say, "To Allah belongs [the right to allow] intercession entirely. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. Then to Him you will be returned."

 

 

Ali a.s does not have any power whatsoever to begin deciding who goes to heaven or hell. He obeys the commands of Allah swt, who will permit those he wills to intercede:

 

Quran "On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him"

 
 
This point is emphasized:
 

Quran: "Is he on whom the word of doom is fulfilled (to be helped), and canst thou (O Muhammad) rescue him who is in the Fire?"

 
Do you think Muhammed pbuh replied "No i can't, but Ali a.s can" ?
 
This thread was made because i have seen some shia brothers unfortunately hold such a belief. Our scholars and speakers must take heed at the confusion of some in the community and be very careful with their words.
 
I think speeches like this can cause confusion:
 
Edited by Tawheed313
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Brother I think you got it wrong. People don't literally believe Imam Ali (as) is the judge in Judgement Day, whosoever says this may God help him. I think the following link shows the reason to why Imam Ali (as) is called distributor of Heaven and Hell.

 

http://purifiedhousehold.com/2015/01/19/imam-ali-as-the-distributor-of-the-paradise-and-the-fire/

Edited by al-Ibrahimi
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Brother I think you got it wrong. People don't literally believe Imam Ali (as) is the judge in Judgement Day, whosoever says God help him. For the reason why Imam Ali (as) is called distributor of Heaven and Hell, read the following link:

 

http://purifiedhousehold.com/2015/01/19/imam-ali-as-the-distributor-of-the-paradise-and-the-fire/

 

Dear brother, this was exactly what i was arguing on another thread, having seen this website before. I was making this as a refutation to shias i have heard explicitly say Imam Ali a.s will grant hell and heaven to whomever he wants. That is why i said the divider of heaven and hell is a metaphorical, later than a literal thing, as the following hadith you kindly brought from the link shows:

 

‘I said to Abu Abdullah Ja’far Bin Muhammad Al-Sadiq (as): ‘Why did Ameer Al-Mu’mineen Ali Bin Abu Taleb (as) come to be Distributor of the Paradise and the Fire?’ He said: ‘Because, love for him is faith, and hate for him is Disbelief. But rather, the Paradise was Created for the people of the Imaan (faith), and the Fire was Created for the people of the disbelief. Therefore, he is the Distributor of the Paradise and the Fire, due to this reason. So the Paradise, none shall enter it except for the people who love him, and the Fire, none shall enter it except for the people who hate him’

 

If they intercede, it is only by leave of Allah swt.

Brother I think you got it wrong. People don't literally believe Imam Ali (as) is the judge in Judgement Day, whosoever says this may God help him. I think the following link shows the reason to why Imam Ali (as) is called distributor of Heaven and Hell.

 

http://purifiedhousehold.com/2015/01/19/imam-ali-as-the-distributor-of-the-paradise-and-the-fire/

Edited by Tawheed313
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If I believe the Imam (as) will judge be on behalf of the Divine (like how a Supreme Court judges on behalf of the state), am I a ghali? 

 

I will leave Allah swt to judge that , for he is the best of judges.

 

My belief is only Allah swt has the power , the knowledge, the ability to be the most just and use divine justice and mercy on that day. He will then allow, by his leave having judged, intercession of those whom he permits.

 

Quran “Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain?” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 114] 

 

Quran: "Indeed, We have created the human being upon the best of forms. Then we reduced him to the lowest of the low, except those who believe and do good, for they shall have an unending reward. So who henceforth will give the lie to you about the judgment? Is not Allah the best of Judges? [Sūrah al-Tīn: 4-8]"

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I will leave Allah swt to judge that , for he is the best of judges.

 

My belief is only Allah swt has the power , the knowlege, the ability to be the most just and use divine justice and mercy on that day. He will then allow, by his leave having judged, intercession of those whom he permits.

What's wrong with believing in what's said in Ziyarah Jami'ah al-Kabeera? It's one of the most authentic Ziyarat out there according to some scholars. 

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What's wrong with believing in what's said in Ziyarah Jami'ah al-Kabeera? It's one of the most authentic Ziyarat out there according to some scholars. 

 

I do not affirm or deny it. All i have to say is, on the day of judgement, it is Allah swt who will judge us. He is the one who knows all things, and has full ilm-al ghayb. Only one with complete knowledge can judge oureternal life, not created beings with endowned knowledge.

 

Our reckoning is to Allah swt.

 

He will , then permit intercession only by his leave and his permission.

 

Anything that contradicts this i reject, because it is in direct contradiction with the glorious Quran, which makes it explicit who will do the judging on the day of judgement.

 

This Ziyarah is being used to justify a whole host of things. Here's the technical grading. Note, i am not challenging the ziyarah, just giving you the rijal:

 

 

(bismillah)

 

By merely quoting scholars who have said that the Ziyārah is authentic, does not necessarily means that the narration is authentic. If we analyse the chain of narrators, there are in fact a few deficiencies within the chain, as a number of Majhūl (unknown) narrators are present. Both chains mentioned in al-Ṣadūq's, Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, and ‘Uyūn al-Akhbār are ḍa‘īf (weak). Note, I'm only objecting to the claim that it's authentic, and not the Ziyārah. 

 

 

Wa`asalam

 
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I do not affirm or deny it. All i have to say is, on the day of judgement, it is Allah swt who will judge us. He is the one who knows all things, and has full ilm-al ghayb. Only one with complete knowledge can judge oureternal life, not created beings with endowned knowledge.

 

Our reckoning is to Allah swt.

 

He will , then permit intercession only by his leave and his permission.

 

Anything that contradicts this i reject, because it is in direct contradiction with the glorious Quran, which makes it explicit who will do the judging on the day of judgement.

 

This Ziyarah is being used to justify a whole host of things. Here's the technical grading:

 

So am I going to trust Jaafar al-Shibli or Sheikh al-Sadooq and Majlisi? 

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So am I going to trust Jaafar al-Shibli or Sheikh al-Sadooq and Majlisi? 

 

I do not affirm or deny the ziyarah.

 

All i have to say is, Allah swt will be the one judging on the day of judgement, for he is the best of judges and has full knowledge of all things.

 

The Imams a.s , by his command and permission only, will be given the power to intercede.

 

The belief that the Imams a.s will do all the judging themselves on the day of judgement is a belief i can never hold.

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I do not affirm or deny the ziyarah.

 

All i have to say is, Allah swt will be the one judging on the day of judgement, for he is the best of judges and has full knowledge of all things.

 

The Imams a.s , by his command and permission only, will be given the power to intercede.

 

The belief that the Imams a.s will do all the judging themselves on the day of judgement is a belief i can never hold.

You can believe that sure, but I'll take what Saduq said here.

http://www.sicm.org.uk/index.php?page=suduk/Suduk28

 

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja'far: Our belief concerning the reckoning (al-hisab)is that it is real. Some of it will be undertaken by Allah, the Mighty and Glorious, and some by His Proofs (the Imams). The reckoning of Prophets and Imams, on whom be peace, will be undertaken by Allah the Glorious and Mighty; while every Prophet will be entrusted with the reckoning of his wasi(vicegerent, representative). And the vicegerents (awsiya') will take the reckoning of the whole of their communities. Allah, who is Blessed and Exalted above all, will be witness for the prophets (anbiya') and apostles (rusul);and these (prophets and apostles) will be witnesses for the vicegerents(awsiya').

And the Imams will be witnesses for the people, and this is borne out by His saying: "But how (will it be with them) when We bring of every people a witness, and We bring thee (0 Muhammad) as a witness against these?" [4, 45]. And Allah says: "Is he (to be counted equal with him) who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him reciteth it�.." [11, 20]. And the witness (here referred to) is the Prince of Believers, 'Ali b. Abi Talib. And He says, Exalted is He: "Lo! Unto Us is their return, and Ours their reckoning" [88, 25-26].

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You can believe that sure, but I'll take what Saduq said here.

http://www.sicm.org.uk/index.php?page=suduk/Suduk28

 

 

I don't think this link proves Allah swt will step , pardon the metaphor , to one side and leave the entire process of judgement on the Imams a.s

 

He will be the judge, the one who judge between us, the one to decide whether or not to permit intercession.

 

The Quran is clear in that even the Prophet can't take someone out of hell whom Allah swt has judged to be in it:

 

Quran: "Is he on whom the word of doom is fulfilled (to be helped), and canst thou (O Muhammad) rescue him who is in the Fire?"

 
I have no qualms with messengers or imams a.s being witnesses over us, testifying or what not.
 
But i can never accept them replacing Allah swt as the judge and master of the day of judgement. To be explicit, i do not mean them being witnesses over us, but the fact it will be in their discretion to decide whether or not we enter heaven or hell. Rather, i believe Allah swt will be the one who ultimately judges.
 

Quran “Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain?” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 114] 

 
To clarify, Prophets or Imams being witnesses are fine, but it can only be Allah swt who has the ultimate say over whether one goes to heaven and hell, only by his wisdom, and intercession is only what he allows.
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I don't think this link proves Allah swt will step , pardon the metaphor , to one side and leave the entire process of judgement on the Imams a.s

 

He will be the judge, the one who judge between us, the one to decide whether or not to permit intercession.

 

The Quran is clear in that even the Prophet can't take someone out of hell whom Allah swt has judged to be in it:

 

Quran: "Is he on whom the word of doom is fulfilled (to be helped), and canst thou (O Muhammad) rescue him who is in the Fire?"

 
I have no qualms with messengers or imams a.s being witnesses over us, testifying or what not.
 
But i can never accept them replacing Allah swt as the judge and master of the day of judgement.
 

Quran “Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain?” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 114] 

 

 

You're repeating the same point over and over. Address the quote. 

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I don't think this link proves Allah swt will step , pardon the metaphor , to one side and leave the entire process of judgement on the Imams a.s

 

He will be the judge, the one who judge between us, the one to decide whether or not to permit intercession.

 

The Quran is clear in that even the Prophet can't take someone out of hell whom Allah swt has judged to be in it:

 

Quran: "Is he on whom the word of doom is fulfilled (to be helped), and canst thou (O Muhammad) rescue him who is in the Fire?"

 
I have no qualms with messengers or imams a.s being witnesses over us, testifying or what not.
 
But i can never accept them replacing Allah swt as the judge and master of the day of judgement.
 

Quran “Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain?” [Sūrah al-An`ām: 114] 

 

 

dear brother, I think you are getting in the same problem that Sunni brothers got for the sake of Tawhid.

what they say is that every thing belongs to Allah, he is the only one who has power over the human being, no one could do what He deserves to do and so on.

this way you have to deny the intercession as well . what does it mean to still hold the view of intercession when Allah is all knowing?

your argument is right as the sunni one is also right when you consider a independent existence for Imams opposing the existence of Allah ( god forbidden) who wants to do Godly affairs while it is quit wrong and none of Shia scholars including the one in the movie you posted meant this.

how you would understand these two verses in comparison with each other:

 

39:42 Allah takes the souls at the time of their death

 6:61 when death comes to one of you, Our angels take his soul

 

in one it is saying Allah takes the spirit of man and in the another it is saying angels are getting the soul of man when death comes to him?

 

does it mean that the second is opposing the first is taking the position of God?

 

the same goes with the matter of judging upon the human being. do you think if Allah grant Imam Ali such position it will ruin His glorified state for His servants?

Edited by mahdi servant.01
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It is only Allah swt who will decide if we enter heaven or go to hell, he is the best of judges.

 

If he requests an Imam to judge and use the command and judgement he(Allah swt) feels is best, and intercede only by his permission, than no problem. 

 

If he steps aside and leaves the entire process to the imams a.s to judge themselves, totally, intercede as they will, totally, 

 

I can never beleive that.

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Brother I think you got it wrong. People don't literally believe Imam Ali (as) is the judge in Judgement Day, whosoever says this may God help him. I think the following link shows the reason to why Imam Ali (as) is called distributor of Heaven and Hell.

 

http://purifiedhousehold.com/2015/01/19/imam-ali-as-the-distributor-of-the-paradise-and-the-fire/

 

I agree with this. I haven't looked at the link that you provided but my position on this was always: This is to be taken metaphorically. Whoever has hatred for Ali [a] inside his heart, won't enter paradise - hence, making Imam Ali [a] the divider of heaven and hell on a specific level. Generally seen, there are many hadiths/sayings that can't be taken literally just like there are Quranic verses that aren't to be understood literally- it's not always that easy.

 

On another note, that quote by Sheikh Saduq doesn't say that prophet's [p] and Aimmah [a] will judge, per se, does it? I don't know what the Arabic says, but it says here "reckoning". Allah with his messengers and they with the awsiya and they with their communities (not all of humankind) - I understand this like that: It is said that Allah will ask Isa [a] whether he told his people to take him as a divine entity (God) which he [a] will deny- thus, that will be Allah's reckoning with his servant Isa [a] and same with every other messenger (being asked about their mission) and Imam. Then, the prophet could do the same with his successors, e.g. ask Imam Ali [a] whether he asked the people to accept a man-made system (e.g. caliphate). And the Imam [a] will ask his community (I'd say this refers to his Shia... or maybe also to other Muslims...) something  maybe like whether he ever asked them to worship him (like Nusayris do, for example). This is not really judging but enquiring what these individuals did with the job that had been entrusted to them. And they will be the witnesses over each other (Allah-messengers-awsiya).

 

This is completely different from judging people [on their lives] - their sins, their deeds etc...

 

Mind you, that are just my thoughts after reading this quote - I don't even know if the Sheikh really said this or not, nor had I time to really ponder over this  -_- I might be off. Or not.

 

(wasalam)

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If he steps aside and leaves the entire process to the imams a.s to judge themselves, totally, intercede as they will, totally, 

 

I can never beleive that.

what is wrong with that, guy?

if you totally allow them doing this or partially?

He is still God and this wont lower His position as God of creature yet it will elevate His position of God who leave such works for His sincere servants. so many Ahadith we have which affirm such view in Shia texts.

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what is wrong with that, guy?

if you totally allow them doing this or partially?

He is still God and this wont lower His position as God of creature yet it will elevate His position of God who leave such works for His sincere servants. so many Ahadith we have which affirm such view in Shia texts.

My brother. Christians say exactly the same about Christ. Beware ..

Biblical Jesus will also judge mankind instead of God Himself.

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You can believe that sure, but I'll take what Saduq said here.

 

 

As a poster has already alluded to, what he said does not prove your point to the best of my knowledge.

 

Do you brother, take what Sheikh Sadooq said here as well?:

 

The Imam is born. He also has children. He gets ill and he gets cured. He eats and drinks. He urinates and defecates. He gets married. He sleeps. He forgets and he makes mistakes (1). He gets happy and sad. He laughs and cries. He lives and then dies. He is buried and the people go to visit his shrine. He is resurrected and questioned. He is rewarded and honored. He intercedes. There are two important signs for him: his knowledge and the fulfillment of his prayers. He has heard the news that he gives about the events in the future from his grandfathers from the Prophet of God (s). The Prophet of God (s) has heard them from Gabriel. Gabriel has heard them from the Almighty God. All the eleven Imams after the Prophet (s) were martyred. Some were martyred by the sword - that is the Commander of the Faithful (s) and Al-Hussein (s). The rest of them were poisoned by the disobedient rulers of their time. The martyrdom of the Imams has been a real issue - not the way the boasters and those who believe in turning over the authority believe - May God's Curse Be on Them. They say, ‘In fact, they were not killed. The people thought they were. However, Sheikh Sadooq says, ‘They are liars. May God's Wrath Be upon Them.

*(1) The author has interpreted this in Man La Yahdharohu al-Faqih as follows, “When for some reason God wills the Imam to forget or make a mistake, the Imam himself will immediately inform others about it so that no one gets misled. Of course, this is what the author and his master Ibn al-Valid believe, not all the great Sheikhs. They say forgetting and making mistakes are in contradiction with innocence or “Ismat” which is the criteria for being the Imam. Thus they either interpret or reject all such cases.

Sadooq, Uyun Akhbar al-ReDa, vol 1, commentary on hadith 19:2, p.400

http://www.maaref-fo...glish/index.htm

 

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(bismillah) (salam)

Imam Ali (as) the Distributor of Paradise and Hell

There is a narration about Prophet Muhammad’s (pbuh) High Station (Maqam-e-Mahmood), which you mention

in the Ziyarat of Ashura. It is a part of the Field of Gathering. All the Messengers, saints and righteous people, chief of whom

is Muhammad (pbuh) , would be present there.

It is a lofty pulpit of light having a thousand steps. On the first step is the seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (pbuh)

and on the next one, Lion of God Almighty (Asadullah Al-Ghalib), Ali bin Abi Talib (as) . On all other steps would

be the rest of the Messengers, Prophets, and righteous people according to their status. At the base would be the believers,

who would also gain entry to that high place. In this praised location (Maqaame-e-Mahmood), for which the Holy Prophet prays,

an extraordinarily and extremely handsome angel comes to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and says, “I am Rizwan,

the keeper of Paradise.” He brings with him the key of the gate of Paradise and says, “I have been ordered to hand over the

key to the gate of Paradise to your honor.”

Thereafter, an extremely frightening angel comes up and says, “I am the keeper of hell and I am commanded to hand over

the key of hell to your honor.” The Holy Prophet (pbuh) says, “O Ali (as) ! Take up these keys; the division of

people for entry to paradise and hell is in your hand.” The Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself announces, “I am also

coming and setting on, on the Sirat. Anyone who has permission from Ali (as) can cross the bridge of Sirat happily and luckily.”

If the master does not intercede on the Day of Judgment in our favor, we will take offence against the decorator that he made us ugly.

(Persian couplet)

It is mentioned in an authentic tradition that, on that Day, all would be wailing, “O God! Be merciful to me, save me, save me.”

There would be only one gentleman who would appeal, “O Lord! Save my Ummah, my Ummah (Followers)”, and that person is Muhammad (s).

By: Ayatullah Dastghaib Shirazi

http://www.imamreza....eza.php?id=4855

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Quran: "He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him."

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To our sunni brothers, i am not arguing against the mainstream here, i am arguing against a few incorrect individuals. Fear Allah swt and do not spread it as if these individuals are the ijma.

 

Honestly, some of you people, you are giving our enemies fodder by which to destroy us, and you by your extremeness are turning many away from the path of muhammed and his purified progeny.

 

 

 

Imam Ali a.s has been reported to say:

 

"Nahjul Balagah: Two groups of people will be destroyed on my account: the friend who exaggerates in his friendship and the enemy who dislikes me."

http://www.al-islam....otnote3_dwy04cy


Shaykh Mufeed(one of the greatest shia scholars) said:

And I say that the messengers from humanity of Allah, be He exalted, and His prophets and the Imams from his khulafa are contingent created beings, afflictions are attached to them and pleasures occur for them, their bodies are made to grow by food and decreased by the passing of time, death is put (?) for them, and passing away is permitted upon them. And the consensus of the people of tawhid is upon this doctrine.And those belonging to (the heresy of) tafwid (those who believe Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them) and the categories of the ghulat (the exaggerators of the status of the Imams) have opposed us in it.

 

Shaykh Mufeed:

CHAPTER ON EXCESS AND DELEGATION (AL-GHULUWW WA 'T-TAFWĪD)
Abū Ja‘far says: "Chapter concerning the denial of Excess and Delegation."

ash-Shaykh al-Mufīd says: 'Excess' (al-ghuluww), linguistically means 'exceeding the limit and turning aside from the true goal'. Allãh, the Almighty, says: O, People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion, nor utter aught concerning Allãh save the truth. [4:171]

Hence, He forbade exceeding the limits concerning the belief in the Messiah, and warned against turning aside from the true goal in speech, and declared the Christians' claims about him excess, since they went beyond the limit, as we have explained. The Extremists (al-Ghulãt) among those who outwardly profess Islam, are those who attribute divinity and prophethood to the Commander of the Believers and Imãms of his progeny, peace be upon them, and ascribe to them privileges concerning their status in this world and the world to come, by which they go beyond the limit and turn aside from the goal; hence they are evil-doers and infidels whom the Commander of the Believers *has sentenced to death, and the stake;* also the Imãms, peace be upon them, have branded them with unbelief and departing from the pale of Islam.

[...]

The adherents of the doctrine of delegation (al-Mufawwidah) are a group of extremists who are distinguished from the others by their peculiar claim that though the Imãms are created, originated beings, and not eternal, yet they ascribe to them creation and sustaining. Also, they maintained that Allãh, the Exalted, created them and ceased to create, delegating to them the creation of the world and what lay therein.

[...]

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imãms are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imãms are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abū Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess.

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Bismillah

 

The narration علي قسيم الجنة والنار has appeared in both Shia and Sunni hadith collections. Sunni scholars have also commented on this narration, with some obviously weakening it. 

 

The narration is mustafeedh (has been reported enough not to be a solitary report, but not enough to reach tawattur) and has been quoted with different variations by Kulayni, Suduq, Mufid and Tusi (also including other early scholars, but they probably are quoting from the previously mentioned). 

 

Sunnis have quoted the same reason as the narration mentioned above (No one loving Ali (a) but a believer and no one hating him but a hypocrite). 

 

Stop trying to define you religion based on what others think. 

 

Also, how can you judge whether this belief is mainstream or not? Have you surveyed the Shias? This seems very in line with what most mainstream Shias believe, and i doubt they would have any problems accepting this (looking at what most already accept). 

 

-----

 

I think it's about time i shared this with you br. Tawheed; we probably hold many similar views and beliefs - or at least close, but i really find your way of arguing your positions quite horrendous. I'm hoping by challenging you i can sharpen your skills at research and debate. If you look at some previous threads of the not so far off past, you will see i've already been labelled Muqassar on this site.

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^^ how does the deity become manifest?? Imam sadiq (as) said we are the names of Allah

 

Could you present proof? Essentially, the Imams a.s seem like they have been made to become everything, so much so, what seems to be the only difference between Allah swt and the Imams a.s is that the Imams are created.

 

Grade the hadith.

 

Allah swt has 99 names, the Imams a.s are not the names of Allah swt.

 

Ya Kareem, Ya Raheem...

Bismillah

 

The narration علي قسيم الجنة والنار has appeared in both Shia and Sunni hadith collections. Sunni scholars have also commented on this narration, with some obviously weakening it. 

 

The narration is mustafeedh (has been reported enough not to be a solitary report, but not enough to reach tawattur) and has been quoted with different variations by Kulayni, Suduq, Mufid and Tusi (also including other early scholars, but they probably are quoting from the previously mentioned). 

 

Sunnis have quoted the same reason as the narration mentioned above (No one loving Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã but a believer and no one hating him but a hypocrite). 

 

Stop trying to define you religion based on what others think. 

 

Also, how can you judge whether this belief is mainstream or not? Have you surveyed the Shias? This seems very in line with what most mainstream Shias believe, and i doubt they would have any problems accepting this (looking at what most already accept). 

 

-----

 

I think it's about time i shared this with you br. Tawheed; we probably hold many similar views and beliefs - or at least close, but i really find your way of arguing your positions quite horrendous. I'm hoping by challenging you i can sharpen your skills at research and debate. If you look at some previous threads of the not so far off past, you will see i've already been labelled Muqassar on this site.

 

Walaikumsalam,

 

Dear brother,

 

I made this thread defending the following:

 

1. Allah swt is the only ultimate judge on the day of judgement.

2. The imams a.s can only intercede if he permits - not by their own will.

3. The Imams a.s will not be deciding who goes to hell or heaven, the decision will ultimately be Allah swt's

 

 

Now, if you genuinely feel these three points i have made have been invalid enough for you to warrant such a post against me, feel free to refute them?

 

EDIT: It seems you think i have been trying to disprove the hadith? I affirm love of Ali a.s is imaan and hatred of him is hypocrisy. I affirm he is the divider of heaven and hell, but not literally by choosing who goes to heaven and hell himself - that is only done by the judgement and permission of Allah swt.

 

I think dear brother, you have entered this thread with preconceptions of what i may argue or what i may say without reading what i was actually arguing.

 

Do correct me if i was wrong.

Edited by Tawheed313
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If memory serves me, I read narrations about there being a "Check post" at the bridge of Siraat at the day of Judgment, with the standard of Bani Hashim, the one carried by Abbas and Al-Hussain, waving over it. And there, those with animosity for the Ahl al Bayt (as) shall be recognized and filtered out. 

 

Pretty sure that I've also read it under the exegesis of the following verses:

 

Quran 37:24 "And stop them; indeed, they are to be questioned."

 

102:8 "Then on that day you shall most certainly be questioned about the boons."

 

http://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-17-bounty-denotes-wilayat

 

 

I know its probably haram, shirk, biddah and kufr but I was just curious if this is not also a non-sahih hadith? Forgive my Ghaaliness please, Ayatullah Al-Reviver. :p

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Could you present proof? Essentially, the Imams a.s seem like they have been made to become everything, so much so, what seems to be the only difference between Allah swt and the Imams a.s is that the Imams are created.

Grade the hadith.

Allah swt has 99 names, the Imams a.s are not the names of Allah swt.

I made this thread defending the following:

1. Allah swt is the only ultimate judge on the day of judgement.

2. The imams a.s can only intercede if he permits - not by their own will.

3. The Imams a.s will not be deciding who goes to hell or heaven, the decision will ultimately be Allah swt's

Now, if you genuinely feel these three points i have made have been invalid enough for you to warrant such a post against me, feel free to refute them?

EDIT: It seems you think i have been trying to disprove the hadith? I affirm love of Ali a.s is imaan and hatred of him is hypocrisy. I affirm he is the divider of heaven and hell, but not literally by choosing who goes to heaven and hell himself - that is only done by the judgement and permission of Allah swt.

I think dear brother, you have entered this thread with preconceptions of what i may argue or what i may say without reading what i was actually arguing.

Do correct me if i was wrong.

Your version of Allah doesn't exist

Imams (as) are the names of Allah.....so pray to your God that don't exist

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Now, if you genuinely feel these three points i have made have been invalid enough for you to warrant such a post against me, feel free to refute them?

 

EDIT: It seems you think i have been trying to disprove the hadith? I affirm love of Ali a.s is imaan and hatred of him is hypocrisy. I affirm he is the divider of heaven and hell, but not literally by choosing who goes to heaven and hell himself - that is only done by the judgement and permission of Allah swt.

 

I think dear brother, you have entered this thread with preconceptions of what i may argue or what i may say without reading what i was actually arguing.

 

Do correct me if i was wrong.

 

Bismillah

 

My post was about the narration and it's standing in the Shia and Sunni view. 

 

I actually didn't address a lot of the issues i had with the statements you made in your posts (i read all of them), even your third point is misleading because no one believes the decision of Imams to be in 'ardh' (horizontal) with that of God, but the relationship of their decision and Gods to be in 'tool' (vertical). - Sorry, I can't think of the technical english terms for these two words right now, but i hope i got my point across. 

 

Also, the issue about speakers clarifying what they meant by this narration caught my intention, since the Imams and the Prophet (saw) when saying the narration, didn't seem to clarify what they meant and only did so when questioned - which can be seen by the narrations. 

 

In any case i was just contributing by adding the Sunni view too, and the standing of this narration in terms of how well reported it was. 

 

My comment against you was in response to the various incorrect statements i saw you had made, and the very aggressive definite rulings against people with other views then yourself. 

Your version of Allah doesn't exist

Imams (as) are the names of Allah.....so pray to your God that don't exist

 

?

 

Care to explain?

 

:huh:

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Could you present proof? Essentially, the Imams a.s seem like they have been made to become everything, so much so, what seems to be the only difference between Allah swt and the Imams a.s is that the Imams are created.

 

Grade the hadith.

 

Allah swt has 99 names, the Imams a.s are not the names of Allah swt.

 

Ya Kareem, Ya Raheem...

 

Imam Sadiq Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã:

By Allah! We are the beautiful names of Allah that Allah shall not accept any deed from anyone except through our recognition (Ma’rifa).

-al-Kafi, vol. 1, p. 143, Hadith 4; Mustadrak al-Wasa’il, vol. 5, p. 229, Hadith 5760; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 91, p. 6; Tafsir, Ayyashi, commentary of verse 7:180; Tafsir, Ali Ibn Ibrahim al-Qummi, commentary of verse 7:180; Ta’wil al-Ayat al-Dhahira, p. 194; Tafsir al-Burhan, commentary of verse 7:180.

 

 

For its grading, read the following thread: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234965142-intercession/page-4

 

Its not authentic.

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^Based on what factors is the version in al-Kafi not authentic?

كتاب الكافي الجزء 1 صفحة 143 باب النوادر 4 - الحسين بن محمد الأشعري ومحمد بن يحيى جميعا، عن أحمد بن إسحاق عن سعدان بن مسلم عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله (ع) في قول الله عز وجل: "ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها" قال: نحن والله الأسماء الحسنى التي لا يقبل الله من العباد عملا إلا بمعرفتنا

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^Based on what factors is the version in al-Kafi not authentic?

كتاب الكافي الجزء 1 صفحة 143 باب النوادر 4 - الحسين بن محمد الأشعري ومحمد بن يحيى جميعا، عن أحمد بن إسحاق عن سعدان بن مسلم عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله (ع) في قول الله عز وجل: "ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها" قال: نحن والله الأسماء الحسنى التي لا يقبل الله من العباد عملا إلا بمعرفتنا

 

Read the link I posted bro.

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Read the link I posted bro.

I did bro. The discussion on the page you linked is on the chain found in Tafsir al-Ayashi which I do not disagree with the conclusions that were established on it's weakness. However, I did not see anything discussed on the Sanad of al-Kafi(unless I missed it?) - hence I asked you based on what factors did you assert that the version in al-Kafi is weak when the chain is different and does not contain Muhammed b. Abi Ziyad. Do you mind quoting exactly the relevant part from the thread you linked which you saw implied that this version in al-Kafi is not authentic?

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^Based on what factors is the version in al-Kafi not authentic?

كتاب الكافي الجزء 1 صفحة 143 باب النوادر 4 - الحسين بن محمد الأشعري ومحمد بن يحيى جميعا، عن أحمد بن إسحاق عن سعدان بن مسلم عن معاوية بن عمار عن أبي عبد الله (ع) في قول الله عز وجل: "ولله الأسماء الحسنى فادعوه بها" قال: نحن والله الأسماء الحسنى التي لا يقبل الله من العباد عملا إلا بمعرفتنا

 

Here is the narration with its grading:

 

 

 ٤. الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الْأَشْعَرِيُّ وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيى جَمِيعاً ، عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ إِسْحَاقَ ، عَنْ سَعْدَانَ بْنِ مُسْلِمٍ ، عَنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ بْنِ عَمَّارٍ:عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللهِ عليه‌السلام فِي قَوْلِ اللهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ : ( وَلِلّهِ الْأَسْماءُ الْحُسْنى فَادْعُوهُ بِها ) قَالَ : « نَحْنُ ـ وَاللهِ ـ الْأَسْمَاءُ الْحُسْنَى الَّتِي لَايَقْبَلُ اللهُ مِنَ الْعِبَادِ عَمَلاً إِلاَّ بِمَعْرِفَتِنَا ».

 

4- al-Hussain b. Muḥammad al-`Asharī, and Muḥammad b. Yaḥyā, all from Aḥmad b. Isḥāq, from Sa`dān b. Muslem, from Mu`āwīyah b.`Amār: from Abī ‘Abd Allāh (عليه‌ السلام),  concerning the verse: "And (all) the best Names belong to Allah, so call on Him by them"[7:180], he said: "By Allāh we are the best names, whereby Allāh does not accept from the servants any actions, except those who know them (the names)".

 

Source:

  • al-Kulaynī, al-Kāfī, vol. 1, Book. 3, Ch. 24, N. 4, pg. 351.

     

Grading:

  1. al-Majlisī said this ḥadīth Majhūl (unknown).

     

    --> Mir’āt al-`Uqūl, vol. 2, pg. 122.
  2. al-Bahbūdī said this ḥadīth ḍa‘īf (weak).

    --> Ṣaḥīḥ al-Kāfī, vol.1, pg. 16. 

ًWeak narrators:

  • Sa`dān b. Muslem is Majhūl (unknown), and he there is not explicit Tawthīq for him, and al- Khū’ī only gave him a Tawthīq based upon Tafsīr al-Qumī, and this is evidence is insignificant. The narration is ḍa‘īf (weak).

 

Wa`asalam

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli
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Bismillah

 

The narration علي قسيم الجنة والنار has appeared in both Shia and Sunni hadith collections. Sunni scholars have also commented on this narration, with some obviously weakening it. 

 

The narration is mustafeedh (has been reported enough not to be a solitary report, but not enough to reach tawattur) and has been quoted with different variations by Kulayni, Suduq, Mufid and Tusi (also including other early scholars, but they probably are quoting from the previously mentioned). 

 

 

A typical Rijali sleight of hand there. With no verdict. Leaving people bedazzled and ripe for reprogramming.

 

Thanks for the laughs bro. :D

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