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liightseekeer

Hijab At 9 Years Old?

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Girl becomes Baalig (Puberty age) at 9. Its fiqh.

Ok, it's fiqh

But then again, my main concern here is that this is the required age. There are too many stories to count involving a girl having the hijab forced on her and then eventually falling into non-marital relations out of a parent's desire to keep their daughter from sinning by not wearing the hijab. Obviously, as had been mentioned before, a parent cannot force the hijab on a child; this isn't good for the child psychologically as he/she would be forced to commit to something they may not be very strong about or even know much about to begin with. 

 

Why does this requirement for females to take on this responsibility at such a young age exist? Well, maybe because back during the time of the Prophet (S), an individual girl at 9 years of age wasn't perceived as the typical troublesome child. This is parallel to the evolved status males received when they get to the - at least during this time period - age of puberty.

 

But then again, this could be up for speculation. 

Edited by Pyroturban313

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maybe on this point we shouldnt forget that we do not have a western calendar. i saw muslim families who told their daughters to wear when they became 9 according to western calendar but our moon system is different so she already was 9 years with all her duties long time before . not so long but still she had her duty

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(bismillah)

 

Where do our scholars get the fact and information that 9 is the required age for a girl to wear a hijab?

 

Ok, it's fiqh. 

 

Your statement seems degrading. It's the Sharīa (Islamic law) of the Messenger of Allāh (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). It certainty does not change, for the Halāl (permissible) of Muḥammad is Halāl to the day of judgement, and his Harām (Impermissible) is Harām to the day of judgement. The women becomes Bāligh (reaching pubescent) at the age of nine according to Islām. The following Ṣaḥīḥ (Authentic) or Mu`tabar (reliable) ḥādīth considered an example:

 

 

عَنْهُ ، عَنِ الْحَسَنِ ، عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ ، عَنْ آدَمَ بَيَّاعِ اللُّؤْلُؤِ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ : عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللهِ عليه‌السلام ، قَالَ : « إِذَا بَلَغَ الْغُلَامُ ثَلَاثَ عَشْرَةَ سَنَةً ، كُتِبَتْ لَهُ الْحَسَنَةُ ، وَكُتِبَتْ عَلَيْهِ السَّيِّئَةُ ، وَعُوقِبَ ؛ وَإِذَا بَلَغَتِ الْجَارِيَةُ تِسْعَ سِنِينَ فَكَذلِكَ ، وَذلِكَ أَنَّهَا تَحِيضُ لِتِسْعِ سِنِينَ

 

1- From al-Ḥasan, from  Jafar b. Samāh, from Ādam Baya al-Lu`lu’, from ‘Abd Allāh b. Sinān: from Abī Abd Allāh (عليه‌ السلام), said: "When the boy reaches thirteen years of age, his good and evil deeds are written (recorded) for him, and is punished (for the evil deeds); and likewise if the girl reaches nine years of age, and that is because she begins menstruating at nine.

 

Sources:

  • al-Kulaynī, al-Kāfī, vol. 13, Book 28, Ch. 29, N. 6, pg. 501.
  • al-Ṭūsī, Tahdhīb al-Aḥkām, vol. 9, N. 741, pg. 184.
  • al-`Āmilī, Wasā`il al-Shīa, vol. 19, N. 24772, pg. 365.

Grading:

  1. al-Majlisī said this ḥadīth is Muwaththaq (Reliable).
    -->Mir’āt al-`Uqūl, vol. 23, pg. 103.
  2. al-Bahbūdī said this ḥadīth is Ṣaḥīḥ (Authentic).
    --> Ṣaḥīḥ al-Kāfī, vol. 3. pg. 260.
  3. `Āṣif al-Muḥsinī said the ḥadīth is Mu`tabar (reliable).
    --> Mu‘jam al-aḥādīth al-mu‘tabarah, vol. 8, N. 10999, pg. 391.
  4. al- Khū’ī said ḥadīth is Muwaththaq (Reliable).
    -->al-Tanqeeḥ Fī Sharḥ al-‘Urwat al-Wuthqā, vol. 7, pg. 67-68.
  5. al-Sayed Kāẓim al-Ḥā`rī said the ḥadīth is Muwaththaq (Reliable).
    --> Fiqh al-`Uqūd, vol. 2, pg. 122.
  6. al-Jawharī said ḥadīth is Muwaththaq (Reliable).
    --> Jawāhir al-Kalām, vol. 26, pg. 43.

 

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ أَبِي أَيُّوبَ الْخَزَّازِ عَنْ يَزِيدَ الْكُنَاسِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ الْجَارِيَةُ إِذَا بَلَغَتْ تِسْعَ سِنِينَ ذَهَبَ عَنْهَا الْيُتْمُ وَ زُوِّجَتْ وَ أُقِيمَتْ عَلَيْهَا الْحُدُودُ التَّامَّةُ عَلَيْهَا 

 

 

2- Muḥammad b. Yaḥyā, from `Aḥmad b. Muḥammad, from Ibn Maḥbūb, from Abī Ayūb al-Khazā, from Yazīd al-Kunāasī, from Abī Ja‘far (عليه‌ السلام), said: "If the girl reached nine years of age, orphanhood dissolves from her, and she marries, and the complete Hudūd (The limits ordained by Allāh, if broken, one is punished) is applied upon her...(....).
 
 
Sources:
  • al-Kulaynī, al-Kāfī, vol. 14, Book 30, Ch. 20, N. 2, pg. 71.
  • al-Ṭūsī, Tahdhīb al-Aḥkām, vol. 10, N. 133, pg. 38.
    --> al-Iṣṭṭbsār, vol. 3, N. 833, pg. 237.
  • al-`Āmilī, Wasā`il al-Shīa, vol. 27, N. 34116, pg. 20.
    --> Vol. 1, N. 73, pg. 43

Note: The Sanad (chain of narrators) has some issues. 

 

 

 

 

But then again, my main concern here is that this is the required age. 
 
Rather the age limit ordained by Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ), and not a depending-requirement.
 
 

There are too many stories to count involving a girl having the hijab forced on her and then eventually falling into non-marital relations out of a parent's desire to keep their daughter from sinning by not wearing the hijab.

 

Too many? In your statement there is no specific group described, so you what your implying above, is the generalization of the whole Islamic population, which undoubtedly is based upon your speculative assumption and exaggeration. These circumstances are barely present in most Islamic populations, and rare, since applying the Islamic teachings at young age shapes the individuals guiding principles (Islamic), raising him/her is what's recommended in Islam. Such teachings are mandatory and your definition of forced is delusive. 

 

 

Obviously, as had been mentioned before, a parent cannot force the hijab on a child; this isn't good for the child psychologically as he/she would be forced to commit to something they may not be very strong about or even know much about to begin with. 

 

Fallacy of false cause. Your associating the previous exaggerated premise with one scenario, and implying 'raising' children Islamicaly, is a forcefully approached, task. This is invalid, because the obligatory religious duties are not a negatively reinforced, nor are they recommended to be so. I suggest you desist from answering such topics in the first place. The OP only asked for contextual evidence used by the scholars to justify the teaching, and not an invalid assumption.

 

 

 

Why does this requirement for females to take on this responsibility at such a young age exist? Well, maybe because back during the time of the Prophet (S), an individual girl at 9 years of age wasn't perceived as the typical troublesome child. This is parallel to the evolved status males received when they get to the - at least during this time period - age of puberty.

 

 

Fallacy of hasty generalization. That most women during the prophets (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) era, were perceived as more mature, and not 'troublesome', which reflects on their behaviour, thus, they were more mature. Again, the limits set by Allāh are unchangeable, from the era of his Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and your implication that women were previously more mature is invalid, since whether they are mentally mature or not, bares no relation to a limit set (by Allāh), which is concerned with their reach of pubescence. 

 

 

Wa`aslam 

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli

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Where do our scholars get the fact and information that 9 is the required age for a girl to wear a hijab?

According to many ahadeeth, it's said when the girl hits 9 lunar years or begins menstrual cycles, whichever comes first, she becomes baligh. 

Edited by NaveenHussain

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Do all girls become baligh at the age of 9?

Or does it depend on race and ethnicity or era?

I asked this question at home and my mother and wife said that no it's impossible for a girl to become baligh at the age of 9 and what they said is that it's around 12 or 13. 

 

They also said that girls don't start their menstrual cycles at 9 and they will at 12,13 or 14. Maybe this happens in our families. 

Can somebody shed some light?

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Do all girls become baligh at the age of 9?

Or does it depend on race and ethnicity or era?

I asked this question at home and my mother and wife said that no it's impossible for a girl to become baligh at the age of 9 and what they said is that it's around 12 or 13. 

 

They also said that girls don't start their menstrual cycles at 9 and they will at 12,13 or 14. Maybe this happens in our families. 

Can somebody shed some light?

This is very much related to what your marja says, not your mother. Your mother might if course have checked with hers/your marja and given you the correct answer, but it's up to the individual to check for themselves if in doubt.

According to Ayatollah Sistani for example there is only one condition, regardless of menstruation or not:

Question: When is a girl considered adult from the viewpoint of Sharia?

Answer: She is considered adult at the completion of nine lunar years.

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Ok, it's fiqh

But then again, my main concern here is that this is the required age. There are too many stories to count involving a girl having the hijab forced on her and then eventually falling into non-marital relations out of a parent's desire to keep their daughter from sinning by not wearing the hijab. Obviously, as had been mentioned before, a parent cannot force the hijab on a child; this isn't good for the child psychologically as he/she would be forced to commit to something they may not be very strong about or even know much about to begin with. 

 

Why does this requirement for females to take on this responsibility at such a young age exist? Well, maybe because back during the time of the Prophet (S), an individual girl at 9 years of age wasn't perceived as the typical troublesome child. This is parallel to the evolved status males received when they get to the - at least during this time period - age of puberty.

 

But then again, this could be up for speculation. 

 

First of all, no girl would feel forced up to wear hijaab if she's gotta wearing hijab before 9. I've seen small small girls wearing hijab as a preparation of wearing hijab at 9 so that she couldn't feel the that her parents are bringing something new and forcing her to do hijab, so if you wanna argue on that why are they told to wear hijaab before 9 then it's a commandment of God that a girl must wear hijab at 9 covering her whole body except face, ankles and toes. 

 

Although your words are speaking the language of the so called free western world. You couldn't compare the western thoughts with Allah's commandment. Do you?

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This is very much related to what your marja says, not your mother. Your mother might if course have checked with hers/your marja and given you the correct answer, but it's up to the individual to check for themselves if in doubt.

According to Ayatollah Sistani for example there is only one condition, regardless of menstruation or not:

 

Yes, I know that. I too follow Ayt Sistani and accept this. 

 

I was just saying why theres a contradiction with some other people. 

You're right, she might have given an answer according to her marja. 

 

Thank you for your reply.

Edited by The Light

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No one will like no ruling of any sort, if you force them to do it.

If you force someone to pray, they will dislike it.

If you force someone to stop behind the red light, they will dislike it.

The right option is to inform the person, old or young, about the merits of a ruling and prepare them for it. Then they will embrace it, no matter what.

People never stopped behind a red light, before they were told about the merits it had and shown the order and safety it brings.

Muslims won't perform a quality prayer, unless they know the importance of it, and see the joy it brings to them.

Hijab has exactly the same story. The parents must talk kindly to their daughter, and tell her the security that hijab gives them.

Even before that, at the age when she is too young to talk to her, they must practice hijab with her by giving her beautiful, small pieces of scarves and chadurs.

If you show the beauty of hijab to a young girl, she will never let go of it.

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1- From al-Ḥasan, from  Jafar b. Samāh, from Ādam Baya al-Lu`lu’, from ‘Abd Allāh b. Sinān: from Abī Abd Allāh (عليه‌ السلام), said: "When the boy reaches thirteen years of age, his good and evil deeds are written (recorded) for him, and is punished (for the evil deeds); and likewise if the girl reaches nine years of age, and that is because she begins menstruating at nine.

 

 

This isn't always true though. In fact it's pretty rare that menarche occurs at 9; on average it's around 12-13 (at least in the US; in other countries it can vary slightly). It's not unheard of for it to be as late as 20 years

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This isn't always true though. In fact it's pretty rare that menarche occurs at 9; on average it's around 12-13 (at least in the US; in other countries it can vary slightly). It's not unheard of for it to be as late as 20 years

 

The OP's original question was: "Where do our scholars get the fact and information that 9 is the required age for a girl to wear a hijab?", in reply, the above two narrations were provided as examples, as they are sometimes 'evidently' used, however classical and contemporary scholars have realised the issue with using this (N. 1) as a Dalālah (evident indication), since the beginning time period, is not fixed (note: in the first narration, it can be interpreter as the possible starting mark), and thus other alternative narrations in the situation are used, such as the second narration provided, which essentially indicates that the limit set (by Allāh), is independent. Other reliable narratives indicate similarly, most of which, if not all, are reconcilable.   

 

Wa`asalam  

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli

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After this post I will not continue to argue with Jaafar Al-Shibli. Erroneously denouncing my statements as mere fallacies. 

 

"Too many? In your statement there is no specific group described, so you what your implying above, is the generalization of the whole Islamic population, which undoubtedly is based upon your speculative assumption and exaggeration. These circumstances are barely present in most Islamic populations, and rare, since applying the Islamic teachings at young age shapes the individuals guiding principles (Islamic), raising him/her is what's recommended in Islam. Such teachings are obligatory and your definition of forced is delusive."

 

No specific group described, shall we get into specifics then? I live in Dearborn, MI, otherwise known as the most heavily congregated Muslim city in the States. (Sect, you may ask? Shia Majority) I've seen and heard these awful stories prior to my post; no generalization occurred here. Do you want a name? If so I'd be glad to PM you a name to prove that I'm not generalizing here. (Note the sarcasm) There are too many cases to where women in hijab would wear overly tight clothing and engage in other activities that they - as women wearing the Hijab, and thus carrying on more responsibility - normally shouldn't be involved with.

 

I won't adress any of your other arguments. Stop nitpicking. 

This forum is so backwards, arrogant and disgustingly ignorant. Ban me if you like. I'd be honored

Edited by Pyroturban313

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The OP's original question was: "Where do our scholars get the fact and information that 9 is the required age for a girl to wear a hijab?", in reply, the above two narrations were provided as examples, as they are sometimes 'evidently' used, however classical and contemporary scholars have realised the issue with using this (N. 1) as a Dalālah (evident indication), since the beginning time period, is not fixed (note: in the first narration, it can be interpreter as the possible starting mark), and thus other alternative narrations in the situation are used, such as the second narration provided, which essentially indicates that the limit set (by Allāh), is independent. Other reliable narratives indicate similarly, most of which, if not all, are reconcilable.   
 

Wa`asalam

 

For me, the wording of the 1st hadith can mean 2 things:

1.The start of baligh for women is 9 years old

2. The start of baligh for women is when she's starting to menstruate, which can't be lower than 9 years old

For me, from the wording, no. 2 is closer.

On a side note, considering the problem in its sanad, why we consider the 2nd hadith has explanatory power for the 1st hadith?

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli
Quoted post edited.

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