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Debate On Imamah On Shiachat

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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Peace and blessings be upon the Prophet (صلی الله علیه و سلم) and his Ahlulbayt and his companions.

 

This is in invitation from brother Farid to Imami Shias to debate him on the topic of Imamah on SHIACHAT. The previous invitations (see: Ghadir, Tahrif Quran) were rejected by the Shia and some Shiachat members were asking why not hold the debate here. Therefore, brother Farid has agreed to hold the debate on ShiaChat. He hopes there will be no excuses this time. 

 

I would like quote the statement of Brother Farid (حفظه الله):

 

"Do they expect Allah to judge us on the day of judgment on something that doesn't exist in our sources?"

 

Debate title: Can the Shia prove the Imamah of the twelve from the Sunni sources?

 

Venue: Shiachat.com

 

Can the Admins/Moderators of Shiachat help facilitate the debate? It will be 1 vs 1 debate so only the two debaters will be allowed to post. 

 

Can the Admins/Mods endorse the Shia debater? Endorsement from at least two admins/mods is required. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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...

From Farid: 

 

 

 

The wise brother and Shiachat moderator Mohammed Ali sarcastically said:
 
"I want Farid to debate me on the merits of Muawiyah [la] from shi'a sources. I hope he has the bravery to do this."
 
This brother gets the idea. He knows that this debate as well as proving the Imamah of the Twelve from Sunni sources are both impossible. That is my exact point. Shias should not be jumping up and down thinking that they can debate an issue that cannot be won.
 
I firmly state that it is impossible to provide merits for Mu'awiyah from Shia books. Has my faith been shaken? Will I lose some sleep? Of course not. My deen does not revolve around Mu'awiyah having merits upon the tongues of an infallible.
 
 
Any Sunni that would attempt to debate such a matter would receive a swift smack to the back of the head, from yours truly.
 
I expect Shias to do the same. They should say: No, this cannot be proven from Sunni hadiths, however, what we have in our hadith library is a hujjah upon you! 
 
Inshallah soon the other Shias on Shiachat will realize that this is a case and start to accept reality.
 

 

 

The concept of Imamah has many parts, not all of which can be proven from Sunni sources. 

The fact that Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) explicitly nominated Imam Ali(a.s) as his Successor can be proven from

Sunni sources. If you would like to stick to that one subset of the issue of Imamate then there would be many who would gladly debate you on this. At the same time, there are many here, including myself who have had bad experiences in the past with this.

When we get close to proving this from Sunni sources, the other brother who we are debating either 

A) leaves the discussion or 

B )  begins bringing in irrelevant points or other points regarding Imamate (such as Wilayat Al Taqwiniyat for example) in order to divert and dilute the discussion and to confuse those listening. 

So because of that, we don't have much hope that such a debate would be fruitful. 

 

If you want to have this debate, now would be a good time. 

I am going to request that we close this forum during the Holy Month of Shahr Ramadan Kareem

(If it's not officially closed, at least I will not be participating in it for that time)

We would like this Ramadan to be a month of prayer and reflection, and working toward healing the rifts between brothers, not creating new ones, lol. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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(bismillah)

(salam)

 

Peace and blessings be upon the Prophet (صلی الله علیه و سلم) and his Ahlulbayt and his companions.

 

This is in invitation from brother Farid to Imami Shias to debate him on the topic of Imamah on SHIACHAT. The previous invitations (see: GhadirTahrif Quran) were rejected by the Shia and some Shiachat members were asking why not hold the debate here. Therefore, brother Farid has agreed to hold the debate on ShiaChat. He hopes there will be no excuses this time. 

 

I would like quote the statement of Brother Farid (حفظه الله):

 

"Do they expect Allah to judge us on the day of judgment on something that doesn't exist in our sources?"

 

Debate title: Can the Shia prove the Imamah of the twelve from the Sunni sources?

 

Venue: Shiachat.com

 

Can the Admins/Moderators of Shiachat help facilitate the debate? It will be 1 vs 1 debate so only the two debaters will be allowed to post. 

 

Can the Admins/Mods endorse the Shia debater? Endorsement from at least two admins/mods is required. 

 

 

Important - Update 6/06/2015
 

After considering Moderator Muhammad Ali's request for a rewording, Farid has decided to reword the debate title to: 

Proof of the Imamah of the Twelve

 

See this link here for his response. 

Edited by Abul Hussain Hassani
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Salam so is the debate gonna happen here in Shiachat if not then where?

 

Waiting for agreement on terms of the debate. 

 

The definition of Imamate, for the purposes of this debate, is the role of Leader of the Ummah, in both the religious and secular (Sultanat) sense. The esoteric aspects of Imamate will not be discussed. 

 

If the brother or brothers agree to terms previously stated and to this definition, we can begin the debate. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Update

 

Farid accepts Abu Hadi as a debater. Only rule is that only the two debaters are allowed to post in the debate thread. 

 

Please read Farid's latest message. 

Salam, 

 

What is his user name so we can get started. 

 

Also, if he or you would like me to read any messages, please post them here. Thanks, 

 

Let me explain briefly the methodology that I am using. 

 

1) Logical Proofs

The strongest proofs are those that are based on logic and reason, aql. These are self evident and are not in need of heavy reliance on textual evidence. 

The Holy Quran has constantly asked us to use our aql in order to determine the truth of an issue. 

 

2) Hadith that are Mutawwatir or Tawwatir

Hadith that have been widely reported by both Shia and Sunni narrators with little or no variation in wording. 

 

3) Holy Quran

As we all agree what the Holy Quran is, and we all accept it from cover to cover as authentic and from Allah(s.w.a). 

 

I will confine my discussion to only these three sources. In addition, I will begin with the strongest proof from each of the sources. The reason is that in case the debate goes on for many pages, as it usually does, the readers who would like the most relevant points can get those without reading too much . 

 

If you would like to start with the twelve, first I will prove the Imamate of Imam Ali(a.s)

 

Logical Proof

 

If we want to look at the time of Imam Ali(a.s), and especially the early period directly following the death of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), we need to look at in the context of events in Arabia that directly preceded it. At the time of the death of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) an Islamic Government had been established in Medina and the undisputed Leader of this Government was Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). At the same time, this was a brand new government, having been established 10 years prior, and a brand new system, i.e. Islamic Government, which was unknown before this.

 

The Arabs were exiting from more than 1000 years of a period known as Jahiliyah (time of ignorance).

This period was characterized by idolatry, tribalism, and violent tribal feuds that would last generations. 

In this period, women were considered sub human and had no rights, it was common for children to be buried alive, things such as drinking and gambling were common place, and leadership was inherited from father to son and was based on position within the tribe. There was no concept of Prophethood, no concept of a meritocracy, no concept of rule of law. The tribe was run by the Sheik (old man), who was usually the most elder of the tribe, and he made the rules and laws for the tribe based sometimes on the customs of the days of Jahiliya and sometimes based merely on what he wanted or wished. 

 

Most of the new Reverts to Islam at that time spent the majority of their lives under the system of Jahiliya that was based on tribalism. Many of them had shirts or pants that they wore during the time of Jahiliya and they still wore upon the death of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) had managed to unite the tribes, including the Ansar(consisting of the tribes of Aws and Khazraj) and the Muhajirin( the migrants who migrated from Medina. These were many tribes, one of which was Bani Hashim, the tribe of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and Imam Ali(a.s)). He united them under his leadership and his leadership was based on Divine Command, being chosen by Allah(s.w.a) to lead the people. 

 

Given this context, it makes no logical sense to me why Allah(s.w.a) would instruct the people thru Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) to 'chose whomever you want' to be the Leader of the Ummah. Based on context, logic, and reason, there would only be one outcome of this flawed process and that would be that the Arabs would revert back to the tribal system of Jahiliyya in order to make this selection,(and that is exactly what happened with the appointment of Abu Bakr)  which was the only system that they knew besides the brand new Islamic System which was based on appointment by Divine Order. 

So it makes perfect sense to me that given this situation, Allah(s.w.a) would appoint a Leader to replace Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) upon his death and this leader would be the most qualified to lead the Ummah based on the Absolute and Complete knowledge of Allah(s.w.a). That person was Imam Ali(a.s). 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Salam brother Abu Hadi.

Please open a new thread. If you could make it so that nobody could post in it except for us both. I prefer this section, but if you like we can have it in the Thinker's Discourse.

I am glad that you mentioned that you will bring the strongest proofs first. I too don't want this debate to drag since it will not be beneficial if it became too long to read.

I wish you the best of luck and may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us both.

It has been a long time since I have been here. Be nice, guys. ;)

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Salam brother Abu Hadi.

Please open a new thread. If you could make it so that nobody could post in it except for us both. I prefer this section, but if you like we can have it in the Thinker's Discourse.

I am glad that you mentioned that you will bring the strongest proofs first. I too don't want this debate to drag since it will not be beneficial if it became too long to read.

I wish you the best of luck and may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala guide us both.

It has been a long time since I have been here. Be nice, guys. ;)

Salam Br. 

 

I will hide the other posts. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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You may do as you please. Though, I prefer a new thread. It should be easier than hiding/deleting posts.

Please proceed with your evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve. The burden of proof is upon you, brother.

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I presented my first proof. Waiting for your reply

I will give you some time. 

If you don't wish to reply, I will assume these points are agreed upon and proceed to proof from Hadith

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Your proof for Imamah, simply said, is that an appointment is preferable over a Shura system.

I personally prefer an appointed Imam, especially one that I have access to, so that I could clearly follow what I am supposed to follow. However, simply because it makes things easier and more practical, it doesn't necessarily make it a fact.

Do you have any clear evidences that one is obligated to follow an appointed infallible other than it being more practical than the concept of not having an Imam?

Edit: You see, I would actually prefer getting another prophets to clarify the religion and to fight innovations, instead of Imams, since prophets are superior to Imams of course. However, simply preferring something does not make it a reality.

Edited by faridov
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Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) was the Khatima Nabeyyin (Seal of the Prophets), so having another Prophet is not an option. 

 

If the Imam is appointed by Allah(s.w.a), then it is obligatory to follow him. 

This is self evident to me, but if you want proof. 

 

Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) was an appointed infallible (he was a prophet and also Imam)

We are obligated to follow him

 

If you want an example of an appointed leader who was not a prophet, there is Talut

Holy Quran 2:247

 

...وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا 

 

"Their Prophet said to them: 'Allah hath appointed Talut as king over you.'"

 

The fact that the Holy Quran uses the word 'Malikan(King)' instead of 'Imam' in this case, 

from a practical, functional point of view it is the same thing. The people asked for Allah(s.w.a)

to appoint someone to act as their leader, and Allah(s.w.a) did this thru the Prophet of the time.

 

 

And in the following ayats, 248-249, they are ordered by Talut and they are obligated to follow the orders. 

 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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You and I agree that it is not an option to believe in additional prophets because of the nass (textual evidence). We also agree that it is not an option to believe that the Prophet peace and blessings be upon him is still alive because of the nass.

Once again, it would be preferable to have countless prophets or an immortal prophet, but Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala did not will it. When something preferable goes against the nass or lacks nass one cannot accept it as a reality.

I refuse to believe in the Twelve Imams because I do not find a nass.

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Do you accept Hadith of Ghadeer as textual evidence ? 

If so, I will being with this proof tommorow, InShahAllah. 

(I have moved to Thinkers Discourse and will clean up thread)

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Edit:

 

Ghadeer was an explicit order by the Holy Prophet(p.b.u.h) to follow Imam Ali(a.s) as Leader of the Umma. 

So this is Nass. InShahAllah, tommorow I will explain this proof, if no objections. I have to get back to my real life, for now. Lol. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Nass is the textual evidence (from the Qur'an or the hadith.)

Your logic and my logic hold no weight when going against nass.

You can argue that logical evidences lead to the belief in a benevolent creator, but one needs textual evidences to know what that creators wants (i.e. the pillars of Islam, Shari'ah, etc) from you since you cannot arrive to what He wants through logic and nothing else.

If Allah, praise be to Him, wanted me to believe and follow twelve Imams, then I would need textual proofs of this.

You, being a Shi'ee, have seen such proofs, and thus accepted the Twelve. No Shi'ee was born on an abandoned island and sat down contemplating the stars and ended up with the belief that Allah, praise be to Him, apppointed Ali, Hasan, Hussain, Ali, Mohammed, etc...

Please present to me with those textual proofs.

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Thank you repenter. Please also take a look at another message I get, which says "you can only make 5 posts until Today... This restriction is in place until 05 Oct..."

Abu Hadi: How is Hadith Al Ghadir evidence for the Imamah of the Twelve?

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The Hadith of Ghadeer is the explicit nomination of Imam Ali(a.s) by Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) as his sucessor. 

BTW, this dtebate is being conducted for the common people, not ulema or Rijalists, so I am asking to please refrain from using terms that are overly technical

 

Hadith of Ghadeer

 

Background (from alislam.org)

 

The Farewell Pilgrimage 
Ten years after the migration (hijrah), the Messenger of Allah [peace and blessings be upon him and his Progeny] ordered to his close followers to call all the people in different places to join him in his last pilgrimage. On this pilgrimage he taught them how to perform the pilgrimage in a correct and unified form.

This was first time that the Muslims with this magnitude gathered in one place in the presence of their leader, the Messenger of Allah . On his way to Makkah, more than seventy thousand people followed Prophet . On the fourth day of Dhu'l-Hijjah more than one hundred thousand Muslims had entered Makkah.

 

Date

The date of this event was the 18th of Dhu'l-Hijjah of the year 10 AH (10 March 632 CE).

 
Location

After completing his last pilgrimage (Hajjatul-Wada'), Prophet was leaving Makkah toward Madinah, where he and the crowd of people reached a place called Ghadir Khumm (which is close to today's al-Juhfah).  It was a place where people from different provinces used to greet each other before taking different routes for their homes.

 

Revelation of Qur'anic Verse 5:67

In this place, the following verse of the Qur'an was revealed:

"O Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and
Allah
will protect you from the people ..." (Qur'an 5:67)

The last sentence in the above verse indicates that the Prophet was mindful of the reaction of his people in delivering that message but Allah informs him not to worry, for He will protect His Messenger from people.

 

The Sermon 
Upon receiving the verse, the Prophet stopped on that place (the pond of Khumm) which was extremely hot. Then he sent for all people who have been ahead in the way, to come back and waited until all pilgrims who fell behind, arrived and gathered. He ordered Salman [r] to use rocks and camel toolings to make a pulpit (minbar) so he could make his announcement. It was around noon time in the first of the Fall, and due to the extreme heat in that valley, people were wrapping their robes around their feet and legs, and were sitting around the pulpit, on the hot rocks.

On this day the Messenger of Allah spent approximately five hours in this place; three hours of which he was on the pulpit. He recited nearly one hundred verses from The Glorious Quran, and for seventy three times reminded and warned people of their deeds and future. Then he gave them a long speech.

The following is a part of his speech which has been widely narrated by the Sunni traditionists:

 

Tradition of the Two Weighty Things (thaqalayn)

The Messenger of Allah declared:

 "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by
Allah
) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both,  you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of
Allah
and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)." 

[see also: Hadith al-Thaqalayn: A Study of its tawatur]

 

Acknowledgement of Authority

Then the Messenger of Allah continued: 

"Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?"  

People cried and answered: 

"Yes, O' Messenger of God."

Text (nass) of the Designation

Then followed the key sentence denoting the clear designation of 'Ali as the leader of the Muslim ummah.  The Prophet held up the hand of 'Ali and said: 

"For whoever I am his Leader (
mawla
), 'Ali is his Leader (
mawla
)."

Transmitters of the Ghadir Khumm narration

(as listed by 'Allamah al-'Amini in Al-Ghadir)

  • from the first generation -  110 Companions (sahabah) of the Prophet
  • from the second generation - 84 Successors (tabi'un) who came after the Companions
  • from the third generation onwards - 360 Scholars ('ulama) of the Islamic world, from the first to the fourteenth century AH (seventh to twentieth century CE)

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

 

For more information on transmitters

http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/credibility.asp

 

 

 

Context of Ghadeer

 

Unfortunately, many of our Sunni brother acknowledge this tradition, but want to make this a debate of a word, i.e. the world 'mawla'. Although the word 'mawla' in Arabic has other meanings besides 'leader' if you look in the dictionary, as with all language, this word must be understood in context in order to arrive at the correct meaning. 

 

A few major points

- This tradition of Ghadeer had been preceeded by many other traditions, acknowledged by both Shia and Sunni narrators in which Imam Ali(a.s) was designated as sucessor and Leader after Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), more information about these here

http://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-leadership-sayyid-mujtaba-musavi-lari/lesson-5-rank-ali-indicated-other-sayings-prophet

 

In Addition, 

- The Event of Mubahila, in which Imam Ali(a.s) was acknowledged as the 'Self' of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h)

- The Many Battles in which Imam Ali(a.s) dealt hard blows to the Kufar and came out victorious

- The Marriage of Imam Ali(a.s) to the daughter of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h), Fatima Zahra(a.s) 

- The Ayat of Wilayat, Quran 5:55-56

 

Only Allah is your wali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who say their prayers and offer zakat (even) while prostrating (in prayers). And whoever takes for wali Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, they, indeed, are the party of Allah; they are the ones who shall achieve victory.

 

More information on Tafsir of Ayat Wilayat from Sunni Sources

http://www.najaf.org/english/book/12/40.htm

 

So it was after all of these traditions were said and ayats of Quran was revealed, the culmination of this was the explicit designation (Nass) at Ghadir Khum. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Abu Hadi, you have presented the event of Al Ghadeer as evidence for the Imamah of Ali, may Allah be pleased with him.

However, this is insufficient because even if I were to accept the Imamah of Ali, I would technically be rejecting him since I reject the other eleven Imams.

Al-Sadiq, may Allah's mercy be upon him, said: Whosoever rejects one of the living, then he rejects those that have passed away.

Al Sadooq Ibn Babawaih includes this hadith in Chapter 39 Those that Reject the Qa'im from his book Kamal Al Deen.

This is why I am requesting of proof for all twelve Imams, and not simply for Ali, since accepting the Imamah of Ali alone is like rejecting the Imamah of Ali.

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Salam Br, 

 

If you accept Ghadeer as Nass(explicit designation), please acknowledge this. 

This is an important step in moving on further in the discussion. 

I have to leave for work, we will InShahAllah, continue the discussion tonight 

when I return. 

 

May Allah(s.w.a) guide us all. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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It is not an explicit designation.

For the sake of the argument, let us say that it is, and that Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, is an appointed Imam.

Please provide explicit appointments for the other eleven, since as I have explained, Al Sadiq says: Whosoever rejects a living rejects those that passed away.

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Brother, I am not here to merely argue. 

You said, for the sake of argument, for the sake of argument.

 

You said in the beginning that there is no Nass for Imamate of Imam Ali(a.s)....now you say 'for the sake of argument'

Then I said 'Can the Imam be appointed by the current Imam'....

 

If you do not believe that there is Nass for Imam Ali(a.s), then just say that so we can finish that point. 

This is not a discussion about an abstract scientific topic 

It is not a trivial matter. I am not here to play games. I have much better things I could do with my time. 

 

 

If Imam Ali(a.s) was designated as Imam of the Ummah by Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and you realize this yet do not accept his Imamate (and also others reading this thread), then you are disobeying Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h) and your Akira is on the line. 

 

I am not willing to continue this discussion on a theoretical basis. Either there was Nass or their wasn't. 

Which is it ? 

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Abu Hadi, if you have better things to do with your time than give da'awa then go ahead. Allah forbid that you spend fifteen minutes a day talking to a Sunni about evidences for your faith.

In response to your point, I concede this point in order to prove that the best that any Shia can do is give "evidence" for the Imamah of Ali. However, the theory of having Twelve Imams crumbles upon any request for additional evidence.

I will once again say: I concede this point for the sake of the argument. I am simply "giving you" this point as a freebie even though I do not find your evidence for Ali's Imamah as sufficient. However, if you can prove the appointment of the rest of the Imams, then I will whole-heartedly accept Ali as an appointed Imam as well.

You can start off by providing evidence of the appointment of Al Hasan bin Ali.

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