Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Sea Ocean

Christians, Do U Accept That The God Of The Quran

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Hello Haydar Husayn,

Hello Christianlady, 

 

I will answer them again for you then:

Thank you for taking the time to do so, but I still feel that we are still talking slightly across each other. Perhaps I am not being clear enough, so I will try to do a bit better with this post. 

 

No. According to both the Tanakh (1 Chronicles 17:11-15; Psalm 2:6-7; Psalm 89:26-27; Isaiah 9:5-7) and the New Testament (Matthew 16:16; Luke 1:30-35; Mark 1:1; John 11:25-27), Jesus Christ is the son of the God of the Old Testament (Tanakh).

 

This is not according to me. I didn't write either the Tanakh or the New Testament; I just believe them both to be true, as I trust God's omnipotence in protecting His Word. :)

 

Jesus Christ is also the Word of God (John 1:1-4) but before God placed Jesus in Mary's womb, the Word of God was not incarnated as Yeshua HaMeshiach.

 

Ok, so the Word of God had not yet taken human form, but he was still the second person of the Trinity, was he not? Are you implying that something changed in the nature of the Son of God between his pre-incarnate and post-incarnate forms? Or do you perhaps believe that there was no second person of the trinity prior to the incarnation? To help you understand my confusion, perhaps it would help if I told you that I assume that you are a relatively orthodox trinitarian Protestant. If you are not, perhaps it would be helpful if you outlined any key theological differences you would have with them.

 

No. In the time of Moses, the promise God gave to King David had not yet happened. Why? Because Moses is before David, not after David. In the same way, Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) is after David, not before David. The Christ/Messiah that God promised to King David who would be on David's throne forever had not yet come.

Similarly to above, I am assuming that you believe that the divine nature of Jesus preexisted his incarnation, and it is to that divine nature that I was referring, and obviously not his human form.

 

 

I believe the Trinity doctrine is not necessary to following Jesus Christ. After all, Jesus Christ never commanded his followers to believe God is Triune. :)

Jesus taught to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Wouldn't it be hard to do that if you completely misunderstand the nature of God?

 

 

God's Word (the Word of God) does take on different forms. For example, there is the written Word of God, which Christians believe is the Bible: both the Old Testament (the Tanakh) and New Testament. There is the audible voice of God and the spiritual "voice" of God. Jesus Christ is the Living (Incarnated) Word of God. These are all forms of the Word of God.

Ok, but you haven't addressed the argument I made.

 

 

Muslims also believe yes that there is a written Word of God, which they say is the Qur'an, correct? Do Muslims also believe Jesus is the Word of God? Do Muslims also believe God speaks, and His Spirit leads people?

Muslims don't believe that Jesus is divine, so it's not relevant here. 

 

 

The point you are making is simply a discussion of the Trinity.

 

Maybe the angel Gabriel can help you understand when Jesus Christ came into being Jesus Christ:  (I boldened some.)

 

When Elizabeth was six months pregnant, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a city in Galilee, to a virgin who was engaged to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David’s house. The virgin’s name was Mary. When the angel came to her, he said, “Rejoice, favored one! The Lord is with you!” She was confused by these words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.

 

The angel said, “Don’t be afraid, Mary. God is honoring you. Look! You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great and he will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of David his father. He will rule over Jacob’s house forever, and there will be no end to his kingdom. - Luke 1:26-33 (CJB)

 

The angel Gabriel shows when Jesus (Yeshua) came into being... in the womb of Mary.

 

Before being placed in the womb of Mary, the Word of God was not yet Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach). 

Again, you have completely ignored the argument. You need to explain what about the following you don't agree with:

God has eternally been triune, made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son became incarnate over 2000 years ago as Jesus Christ. The Son and Jesus are the same divine personality. The God of the Old Testament was triune, and as such the Son was also the one who ordered his people to kill, capture slaves, and all the other stuff we are talking about. 

 

 

I do not follow Dan Wallace. I follow Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not abolish/abrogate the law of stoning. Rather, he fulfilled/completed the harsh punishments (including stoning adulterers) when he fulfilled Isaiah 53:

How is the meaning of 'fulfilled' in the sense that you are using it any different from 'abolished' in practice? In any case, you do not follow Jesus, you follow what the Bible says about Jesus. Therefore whether or not a certain passage is actually meant to be in the Bible is relevant, is it not? The fact is that Dan Wallace is a believing conservative evangelical scholar, who has no reason to want to reject such a dearly-loved passage. If even he thinks it's not part of the original, then that should tell you something. And the reason he doesn't think it's original is because it can't be found in the oldest manuscripts.

 

Yes.

  

The fire is eternal. Being destroyed is permanent - no coming back, no second chance. Destruction is permanent. The torture however is not permanent, because that would be eternal life, eternal life being tortured.

Seriously? What would be the point in an eternal fire if people are just going to be destroyed? Why even mention that it was eternal? What about Matthew 25:46?

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Here the punishment is said to be eternal, and juxtaposed with eternal life.

 

You can ask the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) that. I'm not going to argue with my Creator. God killed all of the people of Jericho except for Rahab's family, and God commanded Moses to kill enemies of the children of Israel: both men and women and children.

 

The only reason I believe God exists, is loving and good is because of Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ). God's amazing love is shown through Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus Christ, committing genocide is no longer ok for any reason, because Jesus Christ specifically commanded his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37) and gave us the ultimate example by allowing his enemies to kill him and without killing even 1 of his enemies.

So genocide was ok at one time, but isn't now? Did God change his mind about what was morally acceptable or not? 

 

Muhammad did conquer the Arab tribes, and after Muhammad, his young wife's father Abu Bakr conquered the apostates. After Abu Bakr, Umar did a lot of conquering to spread Islam around the Middle East.

And? This is nothing compared to what was going on in the Old Testament. If you can believe that God can order true prophets like Moses to conquer land, then why would it be a problem for us to believe in another prophet conquering land? You need to have consistent standards. 

 

 

Amen. :) Personally, I don't see conquering one's neighbors as being a very loving thing to do. Do you? For example, I do not think it would be loving of the USA to conquer either Mexico or Canada, even if they believe differently than the majority of Americans do.

So do you accept that God ordered his people to do 'unloving' things? Wouldn't that make God unloving?

 

I accept that the One and Only God commanded His chosen people to do this to others by acknowledging that I do not know the whole picture. What I do know however is that when Jesus Christ came, he commanded his followers to love their enemies, and gave us the Ultimate Example, fulfilling prophecies (such as Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53) while doing so. To follow Jesus, I do not have to understand why God commanded the children of Israel to kill Canaanites. To follow Jesus, I do have to obey him. :)

 

Ok, so what about the description of what will happen when Jesus comes back that we find in the book of Revelation 19?

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Doesn't sound very loving and peaceful to me.  :donno: 

 

 

Jesus obeyed the Father, even when he was begging the Father to let this "cup" pass from him: the crucifixion. However, Jesus said, Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, let not my will but yours be done.”" - Luke 22:42 (CJB)

 

Jesus could have called on angels to kill his enemies, but he didn't. Rather, he obeyed the Father and submitted to his Father's will.

 

Because of this, I cannot say that Jesus Christ wouldn't have agreed to the commands God gave to Moses. However, I can say that Jesus Christ did not kill anyone, but rather commanded his followers to love their enemies and neighbors, and Jesus Christ always obeyed the Father.

Do you regard Jesus as more loving than the Father?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Haydar Husayn,

--- (I hope you don’t mind me commenting on the misunderstanding that comes from the faulty doctrine of trinity.)

Quote from Post 36:
Ok, so the Word of God had not yet taken human form, but he was still the second person of the Trinity, was he not? Are you implying that something changed in the nature of the Son of God between his pre-incarnate and post-incarnate forms? Or do you perhaps believe that there was no second person of the trinity prior to the incarnation?
 
Quote: Similarly to above, I am assuming that you believe that the divine nature of Jesus preexisted his incarnation, and it is to that divine nature that I was referring, and obviously not his human form.
 
Quote from Christianlady:
I believe the Trinity doctrine is not necessary to following Jesus Christ. After all, Jesus Christ never commanded his followers to believe God is Triune.
(You said): --- Jesus taught to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Wouldn't it be hard to do that if you completely misunderstand the nature of God?

Response: --- John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
3 All things were made through Him, (the Word).”

So the Word, (Logos, the creative power of God) was with Almighty God from the beginning.
The Word was the ‘Manifestation of God’ when He came to earth. --- The Word was of 'Divinity' and came down from God to represent God on earth.

It says this in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!


--- However, the Word that came from God was Spiritual and could not be seen by men. --- So God prepared a human body for the Word to dwell in, and to express Himself through.

Notice the wording, --- God gives ‘the Word’ from Himself, --- and on earth God impregnates Mary with a child, Jesus. As above in Surah 3:47.
--- But the Word ‘indwells’ Jesus. The Word doesn’t ‘become’ Jesus, nor does Jesus 'become' the Word.

Jesus was explaining this to Nicodemus in John 3:
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Jesus was human, He was born on earth, He lived on earth, and He died on earth, He was resurrected from the dead to show that with God there is life after death, --- He ascended to Heaven where “He is the High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek,” and “He ever lives to make intercession for us,” (Hebrews).

The Word came from heaven and was ‘in’ Jesus during Jesus’ life on earth. --- After being the ‘Manifestation of God’ through Jesus, --- the Word returned to His former position in heaven with God.

Jesus never said he was God, and Jesus was human --- with the Divine Spirit, 'the Word,' dwelling in Him.

Can you see your own spirit apart from your body? --- Neither could the Word (Logos) be seen apart from being in a body that could be seen.

Jesus did miracles, and created a bird in Surah 3:49, because the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) was in Him.
--- And Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:
3 “Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

--- So, being born of the Spirit and the Word of God gives insight to understand the Scriptures. --- This is why Jesus said, “We must be born again,” --- meaning we must believe in God and follow Jesus teaching, to be “born” Spiritually. Jesus said again in Surah 3:
50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
51 "It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."

Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Haydar Husayn,

Quote: I know that you are not a trinitarian, so most of these arguments are therefore not addressed to you.

Response: --- I realize that and because you refer to them as ‘arguments,’ are they continued just for ‘argument’s sake,’ --- or should there be some conclusions drawn?

Christianlady and others have said that one’s belief in a triune God is not important to one’s salvation.

In our Churches the faulty doctrine of trinity is more of a tradition. --- I meet with Trinitarians every week and we enjoy Christian fellowship.

The one point I was responding to was your question:

“Are you implying that something changed in the nature of the Son of God between his pre-incarnate and post-incarnate forms?”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which Christians are you referring to?

Please qualify yourself when you refer to Christians as the Muslims on this forum might perceive that all Christians agree with what you state.

The Catholic Church states that Muslims believe in the same God as we do. There is no distinction there is only ONE GOD.

 

Then there are those Christians that say the God of Islam is the devil. How many sects do we have to qualify?

 

The majority of actual Christians I know prefer not to talk about it, but when prodded tend to feel negative towards Islam because they know Islam does not agree with Christianity.  Total and absolute ignorance of Islam and don't like what they hear. They hope the Muslims they see aren't terrorists because they know they would die without a defence.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then there are those Christians that say the God of Islam is the devil. How many sects do we have to qualify?

The majority of actual Christians I know prefer not to talk about it, but when prodded tend to feel negative towards Islam because they know Islam does not agree with Christianity. Total and absolute ignorance of Islam and don't like what they hear. They hope the Muslims they see aren't terrorists because they know they would die without a defence.

They are wrong because if they were educated they would know that all three monotheistic religions believe in the same Abrahamic God.

Now how that God applies to the religion theistically is different. But to say it's a different God is to err.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are wrong because if they were educated they would know that all three monotheistic religions believe in the same Abrahamic God.

Now how that God applies to the religion theistically is different. But to say it's a different God is to err.

Then you tell them that. I've been trying for years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Sea Ocean,

Quote from Post 31:
Thank you for taking an interest in this topic. Let me confess from the outset that my knowledge of Christianity is very limited and superficial. I casually read two books on the religion ('An Introduction to Christian Doctrine' and 'Mere Christianity') and listened to two seminars: one given by a Catholic minister and another by a Calvinist which I haven't completed. Also last year I bought three copies of the Bible: a Hebrew version and two Christians versions (KJV & ESV). I still haven't got round to reading them TBH.

Response: --- I would like to give you something to think about in our three religions from Abraham.

While we are thinking in more neutral terms, I want to show how God has guided each Faith, --- as it is written in the Quran, first from Surah 5:
44 “It was We (God) who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in surrender) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto.”

--- So you see that God gave the Torah, the Law of Moses, wherein was GUIDANCE AND LIGHT. --- I emphasize this because God’s guidance led them in surrender and obedience to Him, --- and the ‘light’ refers to the enlightenment of the Scriptures. --- (Centuries later, the Jews became disobedient to the point that God rejected them.)

46 “And in their footsteps We (God) sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.”

--- So the new Covenant that God made with Israel was to send Jesus, with the Gospel Message to the remainder of His people, the Jews, --- and again it says:
“We sent him the Gospel: therein was GUIDANCE AND LIGHT.” --- The same guidance and light, from the same God.
Notice in that verse it says twice that ‘Jesus came, CONFIRMING THE LAW that had come before him.’ --- and at the end, ---' the Gospel, wherein was GUIDANCE AND LIGHT, was the CONFIRMATION OF THE LAW, that had come before him.'

--- (“A guidance and an admonition [caution, or instruction] to those who fear God.”
This last part of the verse speaks to the followers of Jesus and the Gospel):
47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

If Christians fail to live by the LIGHT OF WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED --- (or by His ‘guidance and light,’) --- they are like rebels, --- and rebellion to God leads to judgment.


Then we see that God gave the same ‘guidance and light’ to Muhammad in Surah 42:
52 And thus have We (God) inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. --- But We have made “it” a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path,

Notice this, “You knew not what the Scripture was,” (Muhammad was obviously not a reader) and did not know what Faith was, --- but We (God) have made IT --- (the FAITH to believe, and the LIGHT, or enlightenment of the Scriptures), --- a LIGHT whereby We GUIDE whom We will of Our bondmen. --- (So again, “Guidance and Light.”)
--- “And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.”

This is the acknowledgement that Muhammad was a messenger of God, to lead others to the right path.

And it said the same of Jesus in Surah 3:
50 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.
51 Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.

Now to add this verse again from Surah 5:
48 And unto thee (Muhammad) have We (God) revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher (guardian) over it. So judge between them by that which God hath revealed. --- For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had God willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto God ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

Notice, --- “For each We have appointed a ‘DIVINE LAW’ --- and a ‘TRACED-OUT WAY,” --- (We were never meant to be the same except in Faith in our One God, --- and in obedience to His guidance.)

Notice, --- “So vie one with another in good works.”
--- To ‘vie’ means to compete as in a race, --- each one trying to outdo the other, in doing ‘good works.’


So after our Faith is in God, and we are ‘surrendered to Him,’ --- we are to do His ‘good works.’
--- Our three faiths should be in friendly competition to do 'GOOD,' --- and our fighting should be against our common enemy, Satan, --- rather than against one another. --- Don’t you agree?

Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

--- Our three faiths should be in friendly competition to do 'GOOD,' --- and our fighting should be against our common enemy, Satan, --- rather than against one another. --- Don’t you agree?

Placid

 

Sure, I agree. The world would be in a much better state of affairs had more people adopted this attitude.

Edited by Sea Ocean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

Since you say you don't know a lot about Christianity, but you have some Bibles, I suggest that you start with the King James Bible and read the four Gospel accounts, Matthew Mark, Luke, and John.

There is only one "Gospel Message" and Matthew wrote a first Gospel in Aramaic, a dialect of Hebrew, the local language of the people. --- He was an Apostle and was the 'recorder' for Jesus as they traveled together for 3 1/2 years.

Later the Gospels were written in Greek, the language of Commerce. The first three are called Synoptic Gospels, and perhaps follow the format of Matthew's first Gospel in Aramaic.

Matthew wrote his Gospel in Greek for his countrymen,the Jews.

Peter and Mark were in Rome working with the Roman Christians when Mark wrote his shorter Gospel for the Romans.

Luke was a Greek Historian who wrote for the Greeks and addresses it to 'the most excellent Theophilus, Luke 1:1-4.

The Apostle John wrote his general Gospel many years later and includes other subjects, like Jesus' commandment to love one another, and the subject of the Holy Spirit.

If you read about Jesus directly from the Scripture, it is better than learning about Him from what others write or say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is only one "Gospel Message" and Matthew wrote a first Gospel in Aramaic

.

It's interesting you say that, as many if not all non-catholics and non-orthodox deny this and state Matthew

Wrote the gospel in Greek.

Edited by shreek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aramaic is a dialect of Hebrew and was the common language of the people at that time, but it is referred to here, and in other places, as 'the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew.'

It had to have been written early for Bartholemew to have a copy to take to India. He and Phillip went from Jerusalem to Armenia first, and are named in history as starting Churches there, so that would be from the 35’s to the 40’s. The Greek Gospels were not written till the 60's, were they?

A quote: “Some question as to whether the Gospel of Matthew was first written in Greek or Hebrew. All of our surviving versions are in Greek. But the early Fathers of the Church (Irenaeus, Jerome, Eusebius) tell us that Matthew first wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. Saint Jerome tells us that a Hebrew version of Matthew was still extant in his day at the library in Caesarea and /or Alexandria. Eusebius tells us that Pantaenus the missionary went to India, and was told by the locals that Bartholomew the Apostle had brought the Gospel of Matthew, written in Hebrew, to India in the first century. --- (That was after the Apostles went out from Jerusalem, to take the Gospel Message to other countries.)
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam/Shalom/Peace Haydar Husayn,

 

Hello Christianlady, 
 

Thank you for taking the time to do so, but I still feel that we are still talking slightly across each other. Perhaps I am not being clear enough, so I will try to do a bit better with this post.

 

 

 I'm sorry. No worries.

 


Ok, so the Word of God had not yet taken human form, but he was still the second person of the Trinity, was he not?

 

 

As a literalist, I do not categorize Jesus Christ as being the "second person of the Trinity" because there is no where in the Bible where Jesus says, "I am the 2nd person of the Trinity."

 

I do however believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, because he says so (John 10:36) and confirms he is the son of God (Matthew 16:16-17; John 11:25-27). Gabriel told Mary that Jesus is called the son of the Most High (Luke 1:30-35) and he is proclaimed as the Son of God (Mark 1:1) This fulfills prophecies about him being the son of God (1 Chronicles 17:11-15; Psalm 2:6-7; Psalm 89:26-27; Isaiah 9:5-7).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are you implying that something changed in the nature of the Son of God between his pre-incarnate and post-incarnate forms? Or do you perhaps believe that there was no second person of the trinity prior to the incarnation? To help you understand my confusion, perhaps it would help if I told you that I assume that you are a relatively orthodox trinitarian Protestant. If you are not, perhaps it would be helpful if you outlined any key theological differences you would have with them.

 
 

 

 

 
Ah I see. I am neutral in regards to the doctrine of the Trinity. That is what I mean about being a literalist. If Jesus had said, "I am the second person of the Trinity" then I would most definitely not be neutral about the Trinity doctrine.  So, you can label me as not being a "relatively orthodox trinitarian Protestant." :) I am neutral (not for or against) the doctrine.
 

 

Similarly to above, I am assuming that you believe that the divine nature of Jesus preexisted his incarnation, and it is to that divine nature that I was referring, and obviously not his human form.

 

 

 

The divine nature of Jesus preexisted as the Word of God. The Word of God however takes on different forms, including audible Voice.  It was not until God miraculously placed Jesus in the womb of Mary that the Word of God became Jesus - a human baby, descendant of King David and called the son of God (Luke 1:30-35).

 

I am sorry. If God wills, I hope to respond to the rest of your reply tomorrow. My husband wants attention NOW. :)

 

Peace and God bless you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I belive this is where all the confusion lies.

I won't venture into how or why The word of God is the son of God. Everybody sees this as Jesus. This is why Islam and the Quran is so hard on Christians because there is no way God would have a flesh and blood son.

 

The Gospels are a little deeper than that. If you read for what it says you find Jesus to be human and show emotions for things He did not know. John 11:33,34, and other times He speaks as the Word of God, often followed by one disciple or another asking what He meant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam/Shalom/Peace Haydar Husayn,
 

Jesus taught to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

 

 

Amen! :)

 

 

Wouldn't it be hard to do that if you completely misunderstand the nature of God?

 

 

Yes. That’s why it’s so important for people to study what Yeshua said and did. Yeshua HaMashiach teaches his followers the nature of God, that God is our Father in Heaven. Sadly, not everyone accepts the nature of God being our Heavenly Father and thus have a harder time loving God with all their heart, soul and mind. (As usual, I boldened some in the passages shared below.)

 

“But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.  If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” – Matthew 5:44-48 (NIV)

 

Ok, but you haven't addressed the argument I made.

 

 
The Trinitarian argument? Again, Yeshua HaMashiach did not say that God is Triune and he did not say that he is the second person of the Trinity. What is important to me is what Yeshua HaMashiach did say, that he is the son of God and that God is our Father in Heaven. This is not against the Tanakh, but rather confirms the Tanakh,
 


God has eternally been triune, made up of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son became incarnate over 2000 years ago as Jesus Christ. The Son and Jesus are the same divine personality. The God of the Old Testament was triune, and as such the Son was also the one who ordered his people to kill, capture slaves, and all the other stuff we are talking about. 

 

Who are you quoting please?
 

 

How is the meaning of 'fulfilled' in the sense that you are using it any different from 'abolished' in practice?

 

 

Fulfilled means to have completed. When Jesus died on the cross, he fulfilled the requirement for blood sacrifices and the prophecies in Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. He did not abolish them, but fulfilled them. A cmodern day example is like a student fulfilling the requirements of a class. The student does not abolish the requirements, but rather fulfills them in order to pass the class.

 

In any case, you do not follow Jesus, you follow what the Bible says about Jesus.

 

 

I do follow Jesus, because Jesus is with me, in me via the Spirit of God. The Bible is the Written Word of God, yet Jesus Christ promised his followers the Spirit of God to lead them and remind them of everything he said:

 

 “If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 

 

Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in youWhoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them. – John 14:15-21 (NIV)

 

God inspired some of Yeshua's followers to write through His Holy Spirit. The promise (John 14-16) was fulfilled for Jesus’ disciples at Pentecost (Acts chapters 1-2) and Gentiles began to receive the promise of God’s Spirit leading them too (Acts 10). Even today, people who obey Jesus Christ are receiving God’s gift of the Holy Spirit, which fulfills Joel 3:

 

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions;

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit.

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of HaShem come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of HaShem shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as HaShem hath said, and among the remnant those whom HaShem shall call.

- Joel 3:1-5  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Joel.html

 

 

Therefore whether or not a certain passage is actually meant to be in the Bible is relevant, is it not? The fact is that Dan Wallace is a believing conservative evangelical scholar, who has no reason to want to reject such a dearly-loved passage. If even he thinks it's not part of the original, then that should tell you something. And the reason he doesn't think it's original is because it can't be found in the oldest manuscripts.

 

 

We don’t know, since it’s possible not all the oldest manuscripts have been found. The Dead Sea scrolls for example were not found until 1947. God knows if there are manuscripts older than the Dead Sea Scrolls that have been hidden and have not yet been found. 

 

Seriously? What would be the point in an eternal fire if people are just going to be destroyed? Why even mention that it was eternal?

 

 

Being destroyed is forever. Do you want to be destroyed by eternal fire? I don’t. 
 

 

What about Matthew 25:46?

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Here the punishment is said to be eternal, and juxtaposed with eternal life.

 

 

Again, being destroyed is eternal punishment. Life being tortured forever is still eternal life, though not a happy one. Jesus Christ is not talking about life being tortured forever however, but rather destruction - eternal punishment.

 

Jesus also said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." - Matthew 10:28-30 (NIV)
 

 

So genocide was ok at one time, but isn't now?

 

 

Before Yeshua HaMashiach came, God had commanded the Children of Israel to conquer and take over the land of the Canaanites. So when God commanded the Children of Israel to do so, it was "ok" but when Yeshua HaMashiach came, loving enemies became the "ok" and killing them became "not ok." This makes sense since the enemies of the Children of Israel in Yeshua's time were the Romans. (Before that, the Greeks were their enemies.) Since Yeshua is also the light to the Gentiles - including the Romans and Greeks, Jews should not be killing Gentiles.

 

Did God change his mind about what was morally acceptable or not? 

 

 

No. God has made 2 covenants however – one with the Children of Israel, and a New Covenant, with whoever of the Children of Israel and the Gentiles who follow Yeshua HaMashiach. We are now in the time of the New Covenant, brought to the earth by Yeshua HaMashiach, the Lamb God provided (Genesis 22:8; Isaiah 53; John 1:29; Luke 22:20).

 

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

 

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

- Jeremiah 31:31-34  http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Jeremiah31.html

 

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages

- Isaiah 49:5-8   http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Isaiah49.html

 

 

 

And? This is nothing compared to what was going on in the Old Testament. If you can believe that God can order true prophets like Moses to conquer land, then why would it be a problem for us to believe in another prophet conquering land? You need to have consistent standards. 

 

 

My standard is Yeshua HaMashiach. Moses and King David, both of the Children of Israel, lived before Yeshua HaMashiach came and commanded his followers to love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). Muhammad however lived after Yeshua HaMashiach came and did not always obey Yeshua HaMashiach’s commands to love enemies. (The Crusaders and many people who identify themselves as Christians also sadly disobey Yeshua HaMashiach’s commands to love their enemies, which is a huge tragedy.)

 

 So do you accept that God ordered his people to do 'unloving' things?

 

 

Before Yeshua HaMashiach came, yes God ordered the Children of Israel to kill pagan Canaanites and take over their land.

 

Wouldn't that make God unloving?

 

 

No. God is loving because He allows people to repent. For example, He even sent Jonah to the wicked city of Nineveh so they could repent. Have you ever read the book of Jonah in the Bible? They did repent, and God did not destroy them.

 

Ok, so what about the description of what will happen when Jesus comes back that we find in the book of Revelation 19?

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Doesn't sound very loving and peaceful to me. 

 

 

Agreed. It doesn’t sound very loving and peaceful. However, when Yeshua HaMashiach returns, he comes as King, fulfilling Psalm 2 and the rest of the Messianic prophecies/promises concerning him. That includes fighting the enemies the Children of Israel, his people.

 

Granted, one of the reasons why many Jewish people did/do not accept Yeshua as the Messiah is because he did not fight the Romans. When he returns however, he will destroy all the wicked, no matter their ethnicity/religion, executing the Judgment of God upon the wicked.

 

 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear." - Matthew 13:40-43 (NIV)

 

 

The Muslim idea of Jesus also includes Jesus returning and fighting, does it not? That also doesn’t sound very loving and peaceful, so I understand why Atheists for example have an issue with the idea of Yeshua HaMashiach returning and killing his enemies.

 

As a follower of Yeshua HaMashiach however, it is important for me to obey his commands. He clearly commanded his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37). The first time he came, he gave the Ultimate Example by not killing any of his enemies and instead "was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5).

 

After Yeshua rose from the dead, he told his disciples to stay in Jerusalem until they received the Holy Spirit. When they received the Holy Spirit, they boldly proclaimed the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ and were persecuted for it. Followers of Yeshua HaMashiach are not to persecute, but rather are to endure persecution for his name’s sake.

 


Do you regard Jesus as more loving than the Father?

 

 

No. The reason Jesus is loving is because the Father is loving. The reason God sent Jesus is because He loves people, both Jews and Gentiles:

 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16 (NIV)

 

Are you a Dad? If so, Happy Father’s Day!!! :)

 

Peace and God bless you

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, being destroyed is eternal punishment. Life being tortured forever is still eternal life, though not a happy one. Jesus Christ is not talking about life being tortured forever however, but rather destruction - eternal punishment.

 

Salam Christianlady

 

I don't know if I can agree with you here. You agree that God is the source of our life. In other words, life is a gift and if God ceases to give us life then it cannot be deemed a punishment. But this aside, how does your theory of annihilation account for Divine-Justice if all sinners, regardless of their crime, are perished equally? I don't think eternal torture is anymore just, but I'm interested to know your take given your view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam Christianlady

 

I don't know if I can agree with you here.

 

Salam/Shalom/Peace Sea Ocean,

 

That is fine. Many Christians disagree with me too, but it is important to separate the Greco-Roman ideas of hell from Judaism. Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) is Jewish, not Greco-Roman, and it's important to note what the Tanakh says about "hell." Yeshua HaMashiach fulfills (not abrogrates or abolishes) the Tanakh.

 

 

You agree that God is the source of our life. In other words, life is a gift

 

 

Aye.

 

and if God ceases to give us life then it cannot be deemed a punishment.

 

 

 

Yes it can. Read Genesis 3. Did God promise that Adam and Eve would be tortured forever if they disobeyed him and ate of the forbidden tree, or that they would die?

 

 And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;

  but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, G-d hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'" - Genesis 3

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis3.html

 

Is eternal torture (hell) mentioned here? Nope. Death is.

 

But this aside, how does your theory of annihilation account for Divine-Justice if all sinners, regardless of their crime, are perished equally?

 

 

According to Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ), there are different levels of punishment, depending on what one knows: (I boldened some and put Jesus' words in red.)

 

As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely. - Mark 12:38-40  (NIV) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12&version=NIV

 

The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

 The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." - Luke 12:42-47 (NIV)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12&version=NIV

 

I don't think eternal torture is anymore just, but I'm interested to know your take given your view.

 

 

Understood. Eternal torture is not specifically taught in the Tanakh. Rather, destruction for the wicked is taught. For example:

 

Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb. - Psalm 37:1-2

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Psalms37.html

 

Now, why doesn't Psalm 37:1-2 talk about eternal torture?

 

It is an interesting study - to research and see if eternal torture is taught in the Tanakh. The Tanakh is the foundation of Christianity, since Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) is prophesied about and promised in the Tanakh. Jesus Christ claims (and I believe him) to fulfill, not abolish, the Law and the Prophets: 

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

- Matthew 5:17-18   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat+5&version=NIV

 

Peace and God bless you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is more humane than the God of the Old Testament? I honestly cannot find a single verse in the Quran that equates to the level of inhumanity that is depicted in the following two passages:

 

"And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - Numbers 31:15-18

 

"This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" - 1 Samuel 15:2-3

 

Peace, 

 

Alāhā is echad/ahad [= one] and people have adopted their own particular views about Alāhā. Jews and Muslims believe that Alāhā is not trinity and nothing is like him [= e.g. he's not a man]. I belive that we believe in one Alāhā, but by interpreting some of the scriptures such as ˀewangelīōn [= Gospel, ܐܸܘܲܢ̈ܓܸܠܼܝܲܐ] wrongly, we can't come to common terms. This is the reason why the Qur'an [syr. qeryān] says: 

 

Say: "O people of the Book, let us come to an equal understanding between us and between you; that we serve none except God, and that we do not set up anything with Him, and that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God." If they turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we have submitted [= to God]." (3:64)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Sea Ocean,

 

So I was wondering if you have been doing some reading in the Gospels, or something else?

 

Not yet tbh. Hopefully I'll start when I'm feeling more spiritual. Now though I'm too far removed from every religion. I'm just not in the right state of mind to be reading any holy book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi IjazLinorAhmed:

Quote from Post 56:
Alāhā is echad/ahad [= one] and people have adopted their own particular views about Alāhā. Jews and Muslims believe that Alāhā is not trinity and nothing is like him [= e.g. he's not a man]. I belive that we believe in one Alāhā, but by interpreting some of the scriptures such as ˀewangelīōn [= Gospel, ܐܸܘܲܢ̈ܓܸܠܼܝܲܐ] wrongly, we can't come to common terms. This is the reason why the Qur'an [syr. qeryān] says:

Say: "O people of the Book, let us come to an equal understanding between us and between you; that we serve none except God, and that we do not set up anything with Him, and that none of us takes each other as patrons besides God." If they turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we have submitted [= to God]." (3:64)

Response: --- This is quite a profound statement and you have identified the problem, --- ‘by interpreting some of the Scripture wrongly,’ --- we can’t come to common terms. --- I agree, but to interpret the Scriptures ‘rightly,’ it confirms that there is one God, who is Almighty and Everlasting.

Someone said, “God is of Divine Essence which is beyond Personhood.”
God is beyond our imagination and He said in the second Commandment:
Exodus 20:
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

If we can’t IMAGINE God, then we can’t make an ‘image’ of Him, can we?

Because God cannot relate to us directly, “As His approaching Presence would burn us to a crisp,” --- God has to relate to us through the Word (Logos), His Holy Spirit, or His holy angels, who are servants and messengers of God, is that not right?

An example is when Moses saw the burning bush in Exodus 3:
3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

--- I believe this was the Word (through whom all things were made, John 1:3). --- He created a ‘burning Bush’ as a ‘vessel’ through whom He spoke, to say, “I am the God of --- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” --- So the Word ‘represented’ God, in giving instruction to Moses.


And you used the word, --- ‘Alāhā is echad/ahad [= one].‘ --- Echad meaning ‘one.’

I believe it is used also in connection with Elohim in Deuteronomy 6:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

In the King James, New King James, New International Version, and the New American Standard Version, it makes a distinction in the names of God in this verse.

--- When GOD or LORD is written in Capital letters, they refer to JEHOVAH.
When God or Lord is written with a Capital and small letters, they refer to the plural name of God, Elohim. --- Is that right?

So it would read, “Hear O Israel: The LORD (JEHOVAH) our God (Elohim) is one (echad)
There is only one ALMIGHTY GOD, but He can express Himself through others, like the Word (Logos) --- so together, they are God (Elohim) --- and the two working together are 'one' in harmony and purpose, --- (echad), --- are they not?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue from above with the word ‘echad’ which means ‘one,’

--- But can mean ‘one’ in a plural sense.

When a man and woman get married, it says “They two become one.”

In that sense , they two become one (echad) in union, --- and they become ‘one’ in their children, do they not?

It is also said that an army of 1000 men can be ‘one’ (echad) in purpose.

In explaining above that God, and the Word (Logos) were ‘one’ in harmony, then we can look at other uses of the term.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

--- (If it was the Word who spoke from the burning bush to Moses and said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” --- it is very interesting because, --- the Word was not Almighty God, --- but He could represent God.)

Again it says in John 1:3 “All things were made through Him (the Word.)”

--- Does ‘all things’ include people?

There is a long story behind it in Scripture, but I believe, and agree with Son, that the ‘Word’ is the true Son of God, who was with God, the Father, from the beginning.

There is another sense in which God is called the Heavenly Father, and it says of Him in James 1:

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

When Jesus came as the Savior, Messiah, and Messenger, to the earth, He was CALLED the Son of God, --- because the Word ‘indwelt’ the human body of Jesus, --- And Jesus honored and prayed to “His Father in heaven,” --- And He taught His disciples to pray, “Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed (holy) is Your name.” --- And we pray to our Father in heaven, and our prayers are answered. --- So we know we have this contact with heaven through praying in Jesus’ name.

Another thing about this Heavenly Father, who represented God in heaven, let’s look at Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;

--- Notice how God is written --- God (small letters), meaning Elohim, the plural name for God.

So God, Elohim, said, let Us make man in Our image,

Remember, we established that Almighty God has no ‘IMAGE or LIKENESS,’ --- So the Heavenly Father who is called God, and is “The Father of lights” had to be the One authorized to make Man on earth.

So the heavenly Father, and whoever He was speaking to (and it is understood that it was the Word, who was with God from the beginning), must have had some ‘IMAGE’ --- to make the man like,

--- After God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, it says next:

27 “So God (Elohim) created man in His own image;” --- But notice, it uses Elohim in the singular here, as well as plural other places.

Since all things were made through the Word (Logos, the creative power of God), --- who was with God from the beginning, --- And when God said, “Let us make,” --- the Word was immediately involved to create the body. --- Then it says in Genesis 2:

7 And God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

So if God the Father, and the Word, collaborated to form a man from the dust of the ground --- (God designed, and the Word created), then God ‘breathed in’ His Holy Spirit, and ‘man became a living being (soul.) ‘

And Adam also was CALLED the son of God.

So here we have three Heavenly Personages, involved in the creation of a man, --- and John explains this relationship in 1 John 5:

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one (echad). (Three in harmony).

Placid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue:

I am a little surprised that no one responded, to challenge what I said, --- or at least said I had gone off topic, and wasn’t making sense about the fact that there is one Almighty God, --- but that He uses various Personages to represent His creative power, which brought us all into being.

--- After asking some questions about your conception of God, from what is written in the Quran, and your conception of our individual soul, --- I want to bring it back to the topic, --- “Do you accept the God of the Quran?”


It is proper for Muslims to say, “There is no God but God.” --- That there is one “Almighty God,” --- and that it is wrong to join other gods to Him.

That is true, I agree, --- There can be no other ‘Almighty God,’ because every other being is in subjection to Him.

At different times, --- when Muslims have expressed that there is One God and that He is close to each one of us, --- they have used this verse in Surah 50:
16 It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
17 Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.
18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

--- If we examine these three verses we find out quite a bit about our nature.

16 --- ‘It was We (God) Who created man’
Genesis 1:26 --- Then God said, “Let us make man in our image.”
--- (The first problem was that Almighty God doesn’t have an image, --- so this ‘image’ has to be of Beings that Almighty God has already brought into existence, is that not right?)
--- (The second thing is that God [Elohim] said, ‘LET US’ --- Elohim is a plural name for God so cannot refer to Almighty God.)

16 --- ‘We know what dark suggestions ‘his soul’ makes to him.’
We (God) know --- what dark secrets ‘his soul’ (his inner intellectual being that involves the thinking and reasoning process of the heart and mind), makes to him.
So ‘the soul’ is the secret part of our being that identifies us as US, individually.
--- And if it is secret in each of us, how can God know it?

Let’s say that the jugular is half way between the brain and the heart. --- The brain can represent the ‘intellect,’ and the heart can represent the ‘seat of the emotions.’
--- And if they are ‘secret things’ that ‘his soul’ conveys to his body, who can know them?

And, --- so you know that the Quran is not alone in this, it says the same in 1 Corinthians 1:
11 “For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man’s thoughts except the man’s own spirit within him?”


Now the way the secrets of the mind and heart are revealed from the inner mind, has to be in speech or action through the body, is that not right?

Figuratively, the shoulders are on each side of the jugular, are they not?
With the thought that ‘God is closer than our jugular vein,’ --- what do the next verses say:

17 Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left. --- (Let's assume at shoulder level, close to the mouth.)
18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

--- So here are my questions: --- If the ‘sentinels’ are angels, positioned to hear the speech and see the action of the ‘soul,’ --- do they not record it and convey it to God?

So then it is not God Himself who is close to the jugular is it? --- But special ‘recording angels,' is that not right?

So, the next question is, --- When God says, “We know, --- does the ‘we’ include the angels that are the first to get the information, and record it?

--- Enough for now, I hope you will share some answers.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam/Shalom/Peace Sea Ocean,

 

That is fine. Many Christians disagree with me too, but it is important to separate the Greco-Roman ideas of hell from Judaism. Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) is Jewish, not Greco-Roman, and it's important to note what the Tanakh says about "hell." Yeshua HaMashiach fulfills (not abrogrates or abolishes) the Tanakh.

 

 

Aye.

 

 

Yes it can. Read Genesis 3. Did God promise that Adam and Eve would be tortured forever if they disobeyed him and ate of the forbidden tree, or that they would die?

 

 And the woman said unto the serpent: 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;

  but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, G-d hath said: Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.'" - Genesis 3

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Genesis3.html

 

Is eternal torture (hell) mentioned here? Nope. Death is.

 

 

According to Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ), there are different levels of punishment, depending on what one knows: (I boldened some and put Jesus' words in red.)

 

As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely. - Mark 12:38-40  (NIV) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12&version=NIV

 

The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

 The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." - Luke 12:42-47 (NIV)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+12&version=NIV

 

 

Understood. Eternal torture is not specifically taught in the Tanakh. Rather, destruction for the wicked is taught. For example:

 

Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb. - Psalm 37:1-2

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Psalms37.html

 

Now, why doesn't Psalm 37:1-2 talk about eternal torture?

 

It is an interesting study - to research and see if eternal torture is taught in the Tanakh. The Tanakh is the foundation of Christianity, since Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) is prophesied about and promised in the Tanakh. Jesus Christ claims (and I believe him) to fulfill, not abolish, the Law and the Prophets: 

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

- Matthew 5:17-18   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mat+5&version=NIV

 

Peace and God bless you

 

Amen Amen. This is truth. Just to add...

 

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 

 

 

The destruction by fire leads to death eternally, not eternal life in torment. Eternal life is given to the faithful ONLY.

 

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

 

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

 

Sodom and Gomorrha burned to ashes and are not still burning. The Scriptures point to this as an example of what will happen to the wicked in the end.

 

 

Malachi 4:1-3  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

 

In other words, the wicked will burn up and turn to ash. They will not burn endlessly or else they could not be ashes under the soles of feet. The punishment for the wicked is eternal (death) accomplished through fire. 

Only after the wicked have been burned up completely can this promise be fulfilled. 

 

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Edited by iere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue from Post 60:

I want to go back to the key verse, Surah 50:

16 It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

16 --- ‘We know what dark suggestions ‘his soul’ makes to him.’

We (God) know --- what dark secrets ‘his soul’ (his inner intellectual being that involves the thinking and reasoning process of the heart and mind), makes to him.

So ‘the soul’ is the secret part of our being that identifies us as US, individually.

--- And if it is secret in each of us, how can God know it?

Let’s say that the jugular is half way between the brain and the heart. --- The brain can represent the ‘intellect,’ and the heart can represent the ‘seat of the emotions.’

--- And if they are ‘secret things’ that ‘his soul’ conveys to his body, who can know?

Now the way the secrets of the mind and heart are revealed from the inner mind, has to be in speech or action through the body, is that not right?

Figuratively, the shoulders are on each side of the jugular, are they not?

With the thought that ‘God is closer than our jugular vein,’ --- what do the next verses say:

17 Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

--- So here were my questions: --- If the ‘sentinels’ are angels, positioned to hear and see the speech or action of the ‘soul,’ --- do they not record it and convey it to God?

So then it is not God Himself who is close to the jugular is it? --- But special ‘recording angels,’ is that not right?

So, the next question is, --- When God says, “We know, --- does the ‘we’ include the angels that are the first to get the information, and record it?

--- The two ‘guardian angels' have different roles as it seems one is a ‘guiding angel,’ or a ‘driving angel’ (as we see later), and the other is the 'recording angel' to catch every word, attitude and action.

The first angel is like our 'conscience' that gives us impulses toward ‘right and wrong.’ --- If one constantly chooses wrong, the ‘conscience' is dulled, so the voice isn’t so strong, and the person does more and more wrong.

Is there anyone who has read this in Surah 50 and wants to answer the questions, as you understand them?

--- Because this reveals human nature and the destruction of the sinner, I guess I will continue next to show what distinctive roles the two angels play, so that we understand the two angels that ‘guide’ and ‘record’ on each of us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue from the time of 'choice' to the time of 'judgment,' in Surah 50:

17 Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

18 Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

19 And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"

--- (Oh oh, those who think they will live forever, or at least a little longer are faced with the reality of death. --- The thing they were trying to escape.)

20 And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).

--- (This may be the final Trumpet, but the ‘death knell’ comes for each soul first.)

Then comes the judgment.

21 And there will come forth every soul: with each will be an (angel) to drive, and an (angel) to bear witness.

--- (Now see the role of the two angels, --- the ‘guiding angel’ will now ‘drive’ the soul to the judgment, --- and the ‘recording angel’ will simply have the final record in order to present to the Judge. --- (If there was no repentance and turning to God, the record of sin stands.)

22 (It will be said:) "Thou wast heedless of this; now have We removed thy veil, and sharp is thy sight this Day!"

--- The first angel presents the soul before the Judge.)

23 And his Companion will say: "Here is (his Record) ready with me!"

24 (The sentence will be:) "Throw, throw into Hell every contumacious Rejecter (of God)!

25 "Who forbade what was good, transgressed all bounds, cast doubts and suspicions;

26 "Who set up another god beside God: Throw him into a severe penalty."

27 His Companion will say: "Our Lord! I did not make him transgress, but he was (himself) far astray."

--- This is an interesting interjection by one, or both of the angels, as the first angel said, “I did not make him transgress,” --- perhaps with a note of sentiment from the second angel, --- and then the Judge: ---

28 He will say: "Dispute not with each other in My Presence: I had already in advance sent you Warning.

29 The Word changes not before Me, and I do not the least injustice to My Servants."

--- (The Judge would have seen the previous records and perhaps advised the guiding angel, --- but there was no repentance in the final record. --- So the Judge says, “The Word changes not,” --- the wicked shall be cast into hell.)

30 One Day We (God) will ask Hell, "Art thou filled to the full?" It will say, "Are there any more (to come)?"

--- This goes back to the battle of ‘the righteous’ and ‘the unrighteous,’ after Satan/iblis brought about the fall of Adam and Eve, --- and was cast out, in Surah 7:

16 He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:

17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."

18 (God) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee, - Hell will I fill with you all.

--- We can see how the wicked will be judged for their sin and rejection of God.

And what about the righteous?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And to continue with the ‘guardian angels,’ that ‘guide’ each of us, and ‘record’ everything we do.

--- After they accompany us through the judgment, we come to the 'reward' of the righteous which is revealed in Surah 50:

31 And the Garden will be brought nigh to the Righteous, - no more a thing distant.

32 (A voice will say:) "This is what was promised for you, - for every one who turned (to God) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),

33 "Who feared (God) Most Gracious Unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):

34 "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"

35 There will be for them therein all that they wish, - and more besides in Our Presence.

So here is the reward of the ones who listen to God’s guidance through their ‘guardian angel,’ and turn their lives over to God, --- He will guide us in what to ‘believe,’ and our duty is to be ‘obedient.’

--- After our Faith is secure, God guides us in doing His ‘good works,’ that He calls us to do.

Then, when our life is over, we are led to the judgment, and the ‘recording’ angel will give the good report to the judge.

But it is up to us to make the choice, even while we are young, to follow God’s will for our lives, and not to be led astray by other voices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...