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In the Name of God بسم الله

Change Of Qibla?

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Salam,

Does anyone have proof from shia hadith of the qibla being Mecca? Imams (as) may have used the word "qibla" in hadith however are there any hadith saying qibla is mecca? Because as I'm sure most of you are aware qibla used to be Jerusalem and not Mecca. I do understand the "muslims" changed it however can someone provide any hadith indicating that the qibla is Mecca?

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hadith? theres a Quranic verse....

 

قَدْ نَرَى تَقَلُّبَ وَجْهِكَ في السَّماء فَلَنُوَلِّيَنَّكَ قِبْلَةً تَرْضَاهَا، فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ المسجدِ الحرامِ وحيثُ ما كُنْتُم فَولُّوا وجوهَكُم شَطْرَه،

 

"And from wherever you set off, you shall turn your face towards the Masjid Al-Haram. This is the truth from your Lord and indeed God is not unaware of what you do" 2:149

 

Masjid al haram is the masjid of the Kaba which is in mecca.

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We decreed your former qiblah only in order that We might know the Prophet's true adherents and those who were to disown him. It was indeed a hard test, but not for those whom Allah guided. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:143 )

 

For more details : http://www.al-islam.org/the-message-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/chapter-29-change-qiblah

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Muslims didnt change it. Allah swt commanded Muhammad A.S in the holy quran.

 

Many a time We have seen you turn your face towards heaven. We will make you turn towards a 'qiblah' that will please you. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:144)

 

We decreed your former qiblah only in order that We might know the Prophet's true adherents and those who were to disown him. It was indeed a hard test, but not for those whom Allah guided. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:143 )

 

And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.

 

For each [religious following] is a direction toward which it faces. So race to [all that is] good. Wherever you may be, Allah will bring you forth [for judgement] all together. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

 

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and surely it is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

 

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course. [Quran 2:143-150]

 

http://www.al-islam.org/the-message-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/chapter-29-change-qiblah

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hadith? theres a Quranic verse....

 

قَدْ نَرَى تَقَلُّبَ وَجْهِكَ في السَّماء فَلَنُوَلِّيَنَّكَ قِبْلَةً تَرْضَاهَا، فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ المسجدِ الحرامِ وحيثُ ما كُنْتُم فَولُّوا وجوهَكُم شَطْرَه،

 

"And from wherever you set off, you shall turn your face towards the Masjid Al-Haram. This is the truth from your Lord and indeed God is not unaware of what you do" 2:149

 

Masjid al haram is the masjid of the Kaba which is in mecca.

Masjid Al Haram can be Al Aqsa mosque from where rasool (saw) went to miraj. Quran only mentions masjid Al haram but does not give a location.

Muslims didnt change it. Allah swt commanded Muhammad A.S in the holy quran.

 

Many a time We have seen you turn your face towards heaven. We will make you turn towards a 'qiblah' that will please you. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:144)

 

We decreed your former qiblah only in order that We might know the Prophet's true adherents and those who were to disown him. It was indeed a hard test, but not for those whom Allah guided. (Surah al-Baqarah, 2:143 )

 

And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qiblah, nor can you be a follower of their qiblah, neither are they the followers of each other's qiblah, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.

 

For each [religious following] is a direction toward which it faces. So race to [all that is] good. Wherever you may be, Allah will bring you forth [for judgement] all together. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

 

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and surely it is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

 

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favor on you and that you may walk on the right course. [Quran 2:143-150]

 

http://www.al-islam.org/the-message-ayatullah-jafar-subhani/chapter-29-change-qiblah

None of the quranic verses you provided mention the KAABA as a qibla. Imam (as) says in bihar Al Anwar volume 52 that when imam hujjat (as) comes he will restore the qibla of nuh (as).

With regards to the verse about the qibla being changed this might be talking about something else since there is no mention of specific location in the verse.

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^^ Can you prove it does not imply kaaba? The Kaabah is in the direction of the holy mosque. The hadith you mention, I would need source and proof, and grading from current scholars like ayatollah sistani h.a otherwise dont act like it is hujja upon me.

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Masjid Al Haram can be Al Aqsa mosque from where rasool (saw) went to miraj. Quran only mentions masjid Al haram but does not give a location.

 

 

No, masjid al haram is not al aqsa mosque as you just said in your sentence: aqsa mosque is aqsa mosque, al haram mosque is the one in Mecca, simple straight forward brother.

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^^ Can you prove it does not imply kaaba? The Kaabah is in the direction of the holy mosque. The hadith you mention, I would need source and proof, and grading from current scholars like ayatollah sistani h.a otherwise dont act like it is hujja upon me.

The hadith says kufa used to be the qibla of nuh (as). And when imam (as) comes he will restore the masjid of kufa as it was built during the times of the prophet (saw). So basically the masjid of kufa will be demolished by our hujjat (as) and built anew. The hadith is on page 227 at this link http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/62899227/Bihar-Al-Anwar-Vol-51-52-53-the-Promised-Mahdi-English-Translation-Part-1.

I don't believe in mujtahids so fatwa of sistani does not mean anything to me.

It does not imply the KAABA because it doesn't say the KAABA no? It could be any sacred masjid, it could be my masjid down the road!

[5199] 1 ـ محمّد بن الحسن بإسناده عن علي بن الحسن الطاطري ، عن ابن أبي حمزة ـ يعني محمّداً ـ عن معاوية بن عمّار ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قلت له : متى صرف رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) إلى الكعبة ؟ قال : بعد رجوعه من بدر .

1 – Muhammad b. al-Hasan by his isnad from `Ali b. al-Hasan at-Tatari from Ibn Abi Hamza – meaning Muhammad – from Mu`awiya b. `Ammar from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: When did the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله change to the Ka`ba? He said: After his return from Badr.

[5200] 2 ـ وعنه ، عن وهيب ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أحدهما ( عليه السلام ) ـ في حديث ـ قال : قلت له : إنّ الله أمره يصلّي إلى بيت المقدّس ؟ قال : نعم ، ألا ترى أنّ الله يقول : ( وما جعلنا القبلة التي كنت عليها إلاّ لنعلم من يتّبع الرسول ) الأية !؟ ثمّ قال : إنّ بني عبد الأشهل أتوهم وهم في الصلاة قد صلّوا ركعتين إلى بيت المقدس ، فقيل لهم : إنّ نبيكم صرف إلى الكعبة فتحوّل النساء مكان الرجال ، والرجال مكان النساء ، وجعلوا الركعتين الباقيتين إلى الكعبة فصلّوا صلاة واحدة إلى قبلتين ، فلذالك سمّي مسجدهم مسجد القبلتين .

أبو الفضل شاذان بن جبرئيل القمي في الرسالة الموسومة بـ ( إزاحة العلّة في معرفة القبلة ) عن أبي بصير ، مثله .

2 – And from him from Wuhayb from Abu Basir from one of the two of them عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: I said to him: Allah commanded him to pray towards the Holy House (Jerusalem)? He said: Yes, do you not see that Allah says “and We did not appoint the qibla you were upon, except that We might know who followed the Messenger” al-ayat (2:143). Then he said: The Banu `Abd al-Ashhal came to them while they were in salat, they had prayed two rak`at to the Holy House. So it was said to them: Your Prophet has changed to the Ka`ba. So the women transferred to the place of the men, and the men to the place of the women, and they made the remaining two (rak’at) towards the Ka`ba and prayed a single salat towards the two qiblas. So because of that, their mosque was called the mosque of the two qiblas (masjid al-qiblatayn).

Abu ‘l-Fadl Shadhan b. Jibra’il al-Qummi in the epistle named Izahat al-`Illa fii Ma`rifat ‘il-Qibla from Abu Basir likewise.

[5201] 3 ـ وعن معاوية بن عمّار قال : قلت لأبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : متى صرف رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) إلى الكعبة ؟ قال : بعد رجوعه من بدر ، وكان يصلّي في المدينة إلى بيت المقدّس سبعة عشر شهراً ثمّ أُعيد إلى الكعبة .

3 – And from Mu`awiya b. `Ammar. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: When did the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله change to the Ka`ba? He said: After his return from Badr. And he was praying in Medina to the Holy House for seventeen months, then he reverted to the Ka`ba.

[5202] 4 ـ محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن أبن أبي عمير ، عن حمّاد ، عن الحلبي ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : سألته هل كان رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) يصلّي إلى بيت المقدس ؟ قال : نعم ، فقلت : أكان يجعل الكعبة خلف ظهره ؟ فقال : أمّا إذا كان بمكّة فلا ، وأمّا إذا هاجر إلى المدينة فنعم ، حتّى حوّل إلى الكعبة .

4 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hammad from al-Halabi from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I asked him: Did the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله pray towards the Holy House? He said: Yes. So I said: Would he put the Ka`ba behind his back? So he said: As to when he was in Mecca, then no. And as to when he migrated to Medina, then yes, until he shifted to the Ka`ba.

Again vague hadith. In none of the hadiths it says qibla was the KAABA. The very word qibla is not even used "reverted to KAABA" can mean anything. I'm asking for a hadith which says the qibla used to be Jerusalem and now is KAABA. IS that too much of an ask?

No, masjid al haram is not al aqsa mosque as you just said in your sentence: aqsa mosque is aqsa mosque, al haram mosque is the one in Mecca, simple straight forward brother.

Quran does not say that. Don't get emotional and start randomly posting. I'm asking for proof from Quran or hadiths if you are not learned enough to post keep quiet and read the thread.....

screenshot_quran_com_2015_05_23_02_29_34

Both can not become same other wise same verse will not tell " Al Masjidil haraam " ... " Almajidil Aqsa "

No particular name of a masjid has been used. Only masjid Al haram. This masjid Al haram can be al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. Edited by Syed.
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No particular name of a masjid has been used. Only masjid Al haram. This masjid Al haram can be al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.

 

You need a scholar first to understand concept of Quran then. And as per your discussion you are yourself Scholar so i don't think any of we ordinary people can teach a Scholar. B)  So enjoy whatever you like. Life is short.

 

From Masjidil Al Aqsa to Masjidil Haraam .. that means they are two different. Otherwise verse will become under doubt, and doubting Quran ?

Edited by alirex
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You need a scholar first to understand concept of Quran then. And as per your discussion you are yourself Scholar so i don't think any of we ordinary people can teach a Scholar. B)  So enjoy whatever you like. Life is short.

 

From Masjidil Al Aqsa to Masjidil Haraam .. that means they are two different. Otherwise verse will become under doubt, and doubting Quran ?

Page 227 bihar Al Anwar volume 52 hadith of imam (as) says the qibla of nuh (as) was kufa masjid so it's possible the change of masjid was from kufa to Jerusalem. So the verse is perhaps talking about masjid Al kufa as being masjid Al haram.

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Page 227 bihar Al Anwar volume 52 hadith of imam (as) says the qibla of nuh (as) was kufa masjid so it's possible the change of masjid was from kufa to Jerusalem. So the verse is perhaps talking about masjid Al kufa as being masjid Al haram.

 

Imam (as) said when any hadith clashes with quran ... what to do ?

 

And this is possible you are not able to understand both ? Quran and Hadith. May be both are of different times and for different views.

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I think the proof is very clear. The matter is, your arguing for the sake of arguing. You have made up your mind already, and have a broken system of accepting what YOU think is right. Totally irrational. If the case is you dont accept "fatwas" (which I dont know how it has ot do anything when I am speaking about hadiths), then let me tell you, I dont accept just any pish posh hadith. You would have to prove to me the hadith is true and was indeed said by our Imams. I think im done here.

 

(wasalam)

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I think the proof is very clear. The matter is, your arguing for the sake of arguing. You have made up your mind already, and have a broken system of accepting what YOU think is right. Totally irrational. If the case is you dont accept "fatwas" (which I dont know how it has ot do anything when I am speaking about hadiths), then let me tell you, I dont accept just any pish posh hadith. You would have to prove to me the hadith is true and was indeed said by our Imams. I think im done here.

(wasalam)

Hadith of imams (as) say qibla used to be kufa which was the qibla of nuh (as).

I'm asking you to prove that KAABA in Mecca has been mentioned by our imams (as) as being the qibla? Some hadiths have been posted which imply the prophet (saw) reverted to the KAABA after badr but the word "qibla" is not used in the hadith. Something else could be discussed here? Once again not one user has been able to prove from hadith that we must pray towards qibla. AMAZING!

Edited by Syed.
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(salam)

Wow, you are pretty rude, aren't you? :huh: How about you show better akhlaq, first, and be more patient? Knowledgeable members might not have the time (or desire) to look up hadiths for you right now. Besides, your own argument is "hadiths by Imams say..." - well, which hadiths? How many hadiths? What's the chain of narrators? The Arabic wording? The grading? Until you don't provide all these information, you don't have any proof to back up what you are saying.

Also, the hadiths brother Qaim posted are pretty clear - either, you don't understand them or are willingly ignorant. I mean, why do you expect Allah, for instance, to use the exact words you want to read in the Quran so that you may understand it better? Why not use your own mind to understand implications (which it isn't even, it's pretty clear). Also, what else could the hadiths mean if their content is about praying and in which direction one needs to pray?

Sorry if I offended you but the tone you are using with fellow members who only try to help you is disrespectful - please, be more cautious of such things in the future. Good luck with your question, anyway. Maybe other members will provide you with what you are looking ^_^

(wasalam)

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(salam)

Wow, you are pretty rude, aren't you? :huh: How about you show better akhlaq, first, and be more patient? Knowledgeable members might not have the time (or desire) to look up hadiths for you right now. Besides, your own argument is "hadiths by Imams say..." - well, which hadiths? How many hadiths? What's the chain of narrators? The Arabic wording? The grading? Until you don't provide all these information, you don't have any proof to back up what you are saying.

Also, the hadiths brother Qaim posted are pretty clear - either, you don't understand them or are willingly ignorant. I mean, why do you expect Allah, for instance, to use the exact words you want to read in the Quran so that you may understand it better? Why not use your own mind to understand implications (which it isn't even, it's pretty clear). Also, what else could the hadiths mean if their content is about praying and in which direction one needs to pray?

Sorry if I offended you but the tone you are using with fellow members who only try to help you is disrespectful - please, be more cautious of such things in the future. Good luck with your question, anyway. Maybe other members will provide you with what you are looking ^_^

(wasalam)

All mosques faced Jerusalem in for a long time after the prophets (saw) martyrdom. Read below:

Qibla

According to the Quran, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2:144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.

The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The Amr b. al As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.

Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the Mahgraye (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Kaba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.

Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Quran and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of all mosques. Could it be the Qibla only then shifted to Mecca?

Dome of the Rock

A possible answer as to why early mosques face towards Palestine is found in Jerusalem

In the city centre lies the Dome of the Rock, an imposing structure built by Abd al-Malik in 691 AD. It is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. It seems to have been intended as a sanctuary rather than a mosque, as there is no Qibla and its octagonal design indicates it was used for circumambulation. Muslims believe it commemorates the Miraj, the night Muhammad went up into heaven to speak to Allah and Moses regarding the number of prayers required of believers.

Yet the inscriptions on the walls of the building say nothing of the Miraj but are polemical quranic quotations, aimed primarily at Christians. Perhaps this imposing building was built instead as the early sanctuary of Islam, before the adoption of Mecca. This is logical given Muhammads intention to reclaim the land of his birthright.

Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.

Could it be that the Qiblas of the early mosques were aligned to the Dome of the Rock until the edict of Walid I in the early 8th century?

Nevos inscriptions

The late Yehuda Nevo from Jerusalem University extensively surveyed Arabic rock inscriptions, scattered over the Negev and Syro-Jordanian deserts. His research gives a useful picture of the historical Muhammad from contemporary non-Muslim sources.

In the Arab religious texts from the earliest Sufyani period (661-684 AD) there is a monotheistic creed but a complete absence of any reference to Muhammad. His name is only found on Arab inscriptions after 690 AD. The formula Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is Gods prophet) occurs first on an Arab-Sassanian coin from 690 AD, struck in Damascus. More importantly, the first appearance of the Triple Confession of Faith including the Tawhid (God is one), Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is his prophet) and rasul Allah wa-abduhu (the human nature of Jesus) is in Abd al-Maliks inscription at the Dome of the Rock, dated 691 AD. Before this the Muslim confession of faith cannot be substantiated.

Hence, for a full 60 years after the death of Muhammad, the official Arab religious confession did not include Muhammad in its set formulae. Instead it revealed a monotheistic belief, developing Judaeo-Christian concepts in a particular literary style. When the Muhammadan creed is introduced, during the Marwanid period (after 684 AD) it appears almost overnight as the only form of official religious declaration in formal documents. It seems that Muhammads elevation to the status of universal prophet did not occur until the late 7th century, long after his death.

Taken from isaalmasih.net

Edited by Syed.
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I guess the billions of Muslims who existed the past 1400 years were all wrong. But you came and you enlightened us all. Thank You.

124,000 prophets came majority of all their nations respectively went to hell apart from the nation of hazrat yunus (as). Odds a little stacked against our beloved "muslims" don't you think?

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124,000 prophets came majority of all their nations respectively went to hell apart from the nation of hazrat yunus (as). Odds a little stacked against our beloved "muslims" don't you think?

 

Do you believe Imam Ali (a) was born in the kabah?

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Fellow brothers and sisters,

 

"Syed"s views are strange and un-mainstream to say the least. But what sets us apart from ALL other religions is: you are free to question, and there is nothing wrong with concluding with "I don't know, but I may try and find out". I'm all for asking away, as long as the asking happens without the slightest bit of "you-see-I'm-right-you're-all-stumped".

 

As for the question..... I don't know :) . There is no doubt in my mind that the Ka'ba is a very holy place since it is the centre of Hajj and His Emminence Imam Ali was born inside it. This leads me to believe that it would have had to be the direction for prayer. But I don't have sources.

 

Madzi

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Do you believe Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã was born in the kabah?

Hazrat Ali (as) appeared in the KAABA, if that is why people pray towards the KAABA then I guess that's acceptable, however there is not sufficient proof in hadiths or historical accounts to suggest that the qibla during the time of rasolullah (saw). I've even proven in this thread that the qibla before Jerusalem was kufa not KAABA in Mecca.

Let's not forget, Jerusalem is where rasolullah (saw) went on miraj where he heard Allah speak to him (saw) through the voice of hazrat ali (as). So the greatness of hazrat ali (as) is in every place.

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Let's not forget, Jerusalem is where rasolullah (saw) went on miraj 

 

Can you please quote narrations for the above?

I have seen narration in Tafseer al-Qummi from the Imam's (as) saying that the al-Aqsa mosque referred to in the verse of Mera'aj is NOT 'Bait al-Muqaddas in Jerusalem.

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Can you please quote narrations for the above?

I have seen narration in Tafseer al-Qummi from the Imam's (as) saying that the al-Aqsa mosque referred to in the verse of Mera'aj is NOT 'Bait al-Muqaddas in Jerusalem.

Where do you say it is?

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It says masjid Al haram in hadiths. In hadiths it says the prophet (saw) went from MASJID AL HARAM to MASJID AL AQSA. This is the same situation we find in the Quran where muslims say masjid Al haram is in Mecca yet there is no hadith to suggest that......

Masjid Al Haram could be masjid of kufa which got reverted to Jerusalem. There are hadiths to suggest this.

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@Syed, do you simply not want to face Makka for prayers although you've been given proof from the Quran and from your own Shia Hadith?  

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@Syed, do you simply not want to face Makka for prayers although you've been given proof from the Quran and from your own Shia Hadith?

Have you not been reading the thread? This thread has proven there's no mention of the qibla being in Mecca from the Quran. Also from hadith there's no mention of qibla being in Mecca, just a mention of prophet (saw) reverting to the KAABA which could mean just about anything since neither the words qibla or Mecca are mentioned in the hadith.

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Such an idiotic question can only come from somebody who has no grounding in any reality

Yes Islam encourages asking, but not something stupid like this

Its still unclear what hes saying: is masjid al kufah or masjid ul aqsa your qiblah?

Whether it's jerusalem or kufa is not the point.

The point is the fact that the qibla being KAABA and being located in Mecca has not been mentioned in the Quran or hadith do you not find that worrying?

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