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What Evidence Do The Shia Have For The Existence..

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@investigating.

 

A lot of discussion has already been conducted, Just to conclude my discussion: I again quote

 

1- I am not Quransit as already pointed out in post no. 147. I do believe in the explanation of verses of quran from the hadith of the prophet and the sayings of Ahl albayt. The criterion of hadith is quran.

 

I told you again that I am not even Qur'anist neither I am asking you to become Qur'anist. The Qur'an is silent about the appointment of 12 or any individual from the progeny of Prophet. So making a fundamental article of faith on the basis of dogma backed by your version of Hadith through your interpretation and due to that considering all Non-12er Muslims to be Non-Mumin is nothing more than misguidance. (You will be held accountable to Allah for this)

 

Or at least make a following testification (I will stop bothering you about your dogma of Imamate):

 

I believe that whoever believes in Qur'an commands them to believe and whoever fulfills the criteria of Qur'an of being Mumin is Mu'min (Believer) ...

 

You have a right to believe 12er Shia Muslims to be the highest level of Mu'min but you don't have right to reject all other Muslims from at least the lowest level of being Mu'min if they consider the foundation of their deen based on clear foundation of Qur'an and then consulting their hadith for further explanations. Difference in opinions in regard of Interpretation or authenticity of Hadith should not be deemed as a reason to label between "Momin" and "Non-Momin" as this level of sectarianism is prohibited in Islam.

 

 

 

2- The imamah is well proven in quran unless some one denies its verses.

 

If by Imamah you mean "Leadership" than I have no objection. By that definition "Kingdomship" is also well-proven from Qur'an but that doesn't give this title a divine status unless attributed to the divinely appointed Prophet or Messenger.

 

Can you please show me the verses of Qur'an that:

 

i) Commands us to believe in the Imams sent by Allah in the Ummah or even in previous nations same as Allah commands us to believe in Allah, Angels, Messengers, Books, day of jugement etc. in many different places?

 

ii) That commands us to follow 12 individuals from the progeny of Prophet (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) ....

 

Or at least some concept concluded from following kind of verses:

 

O muhammed ! the world cannot be empty from IMAM… surely I will appoint 12 individuals from your progeny to lead Muslims as I appointed Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] and (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and other Prophets to lead mankind. Tell the people to obey them after you for infact they all are infallibles.. & surely there is a extreme torment for those who disbelieve !!!

"Oh Muslims, be aware that there will be certain Imaams for you after the Prophet from his generation who are appointed by God and you need to follow them"

Oh Muslims, Don’t you know that Allah always send imams for the people to lead them & to tell the right path of ISLAM? Surely those who disbelieve in regard of my appointed IMAMS has clearly gone astray… (sooraeiy imamat :18)

 

“O Muhammed ! say the people to follow the 12 imams which will be from your progeny to whom Allah will guide as he guided ibraham & other imams from his progeny! “ (sooraeiy imamat :12) 

(Allah FORBIDS) 

 

 

 

2- Unfortunately there is not a single HADITH mentioning all 12 names of the leaders whom sunni follow or consider them rightly guided. This is the simple reason we get objections on our 12 imams and immamah..

 

Who says that it is a fundamental article of Islam to know the 12 names of the leaders and to follow them and to believe they are rightly guided? (Why are you imposing your dogma of Imamate on Sunnis brother?)

 

No where in Hadith it says that they are rightly guided.

 

No where in the Hadith narrators confirmed that Prophet confirmed their names.

 

No where in the Hadith it says that they are specifically from Banu Hashim.

 

No where in Hadith it says that 12 Caliphs are divinely appointed.

 

Do you expect Sunni Muslims to base their fundamental article of faith on such a vague Hadith?

 

Caliphate is not the source of guidance for Muslims but the mere management of Muslim affairs (taking scholars as advisers) just like we see the mere management of Iranian nation under the title of Wilayat-e-Faqih. The foundation of guidance is mentioned in Qur'an and then we can refer to Hadith for more details.

 

 

 

3- The authenticity of hadith for names of 12 Imams from Ahl albayat is well proven.Imams are from ahl albaayt and kept pure by the verse of quran (last part 33;33).

 

Every Imamiyah sect has their own version of Ahle-Bait based on their version of Hadith. So just by calling something authentic doesn't make it authentic.

 

The verse (33:33) is not explicit proof to convince other sects of Islam specially the Non-Imamiyahs to accept and believe that Allah appointed 12 individuals from the Progeny of Prophet greater in status than all the past Prophets of Allah.

 

The only rational way around to prove the legitimacy of your sect is to:

 

i) Prove from Qur'an (Furqan-e-Azeem) alone that we need to believe and follow 12 individuals form the progeny of Prophet who are kept away from uncleanliness. 

 

(OR)

 

ii) There must be a divinely appointed leader present to lead Ummah just like Imam Khomeini was present to lead Iranian nation. He must explaining us His positions in the light of verses of Qur’an OR claiming to me that He is the final authority appointed by Allah (a living and talking Qur’an)…

 

------------------------------

 

May Allah guide us all!

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I told you again that I am not even Qur'anist neither I am asking you to become Qur'anist. The Qur'an is silent about the appointment of 12 or any individual from the progeny of Prophet. So making a fundamental article of faith on the basis of dogma backed by your version of Hadith through your interpretation and due to that considering all Non-12er Muslims to be Non-Mumin is nothing more than misguidance. (You will be held accountable to Allah for this)

 

Or at least make a following testification (I will stop bothering you about your dogma of Imamate):

 

I believe that whoever believes in Qur'an commands them to believe and whoever fulfills the criteria of Qur'an of being Mumin is Mu'min (Believer) ...

 

You have a right to believe 12er Shia Muslims to be the highest level of Mu'min but you don't have right to reject all other Muslims from at least the lowest level of being Mu'min if they consider the foundation of their deen based on clear foundation of Qur'an and then consulting their hadith for further explanations. Difference in opinions in regard of Interpretation or authenticity of Hadith should not be deemed as a reason to label between "Momin" and "Non-Momin" as this level of sectarianism is prohibited in Islam.

 

 

If by Imamah you mean "Leadership" than I have no objection. By that definition "Kingdomship" is also well-proven from Qur'an but that doesn't give this title a divine status unless attributed to the divinely appointed Prophet or Messenger.

 

Can you please show me the verses of Qur'an that:

 

i) Commands us to believe in the Imams sent by Allah in the Ummah or even in previous nations same as Allah commands us to believe in Allah, Angels, Messengers, Books, day of jugement etc. in many different places?

 

ii) That commands us to follow 12 individuals from the progeny of Prophet (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) ....

 

Or at least some concept concluded from following kind of verses:

 

O muhammed ! the world cannot be empty from IMAM… surely I will appoint 12 individuals from your progeny to lead Muslims as I appointed Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] and (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and other Prophets to lead mankind. Tell the people to obey them after you for infact they all are infallibles.. & surely there is a extreme torment for those who disbelieve !!!

"Oh Muslims, be aware that there will be certain Imaams for you after the Prophet from his generation who are appointed by God and you need to follow them"

Oh Muslims, Don’t you know that Allah always send imams for the people to lead them & to tell the right path of ISLAM? Surely those who disbelieve in regard of my appointed IMAMS has clearly gone astray… (sooraeiy imamat :18)

 

“O Muhammed ! say the people to follow the 12 imams which will be from your progeny to whom Allah will guide as he guided ibraham & other imams from his progeny! “ (sooraeiy imamat :12) 

(Allah FORBIDS) 

 

 

Who says that it is a fundamental article of Islam to know the 12 names of the leaders and to follow them and to believe they are rightly guided? (Why are you imposing your dogma of Imamate on Sunnis brother?)

 

No where in Hadith it says that they are rightly guided.

 

No where in the Hadith narrators confirmed that Prophet confirmed their names.

 

No where in the Hadith it says that they are specifically from Banu Hashim.

 

No where in Hadith it says that 12 Caliphs are divinely appointed.

 

Do you expect Sunni Muslims to base their fundamental article of faith on such a vague Hadith?

 

Caliphate is not the source of guidance for Muslims but the mere management of Muslim affairs (taking scholars as advisers) just like we see the mere management of Iranian nation under the title of Wilayat-e-Faqih. The foundation of guidance is mentioned in Qur'an and then we can refer to Hadith for more details.

 

 

Every Imamiyah sect has their own version of Ahle-Bait based on their version of Hadith. So just by calling something authentic doesn't make it authentic.

 

The verse (33:33) is not explicit proof to convince other sects of Islam specially the Non-Imamiyahs to accept and believe that Allah appointed 12 individuals from the Progeny of Prophet greater in status than all the past Prophets of Allah.

 

The only rational way around to prove the legitimacy of your sect is to:

 

i) Prove from Qur'an (Furqan-e-Azeem) alone that we need to believe and follow 12 individuals form the progeny of Prophet who are kept away from uncleanliness. 

 

(OR)

 

ii) There must be a divinely appointed leader present to lead Ummah just like Imam Khomeini was present to lead Iranian nation. He must explaining us His positions in the light of verses of Qur’an OR claiming to me that He is the final authority appointed by Allah (a living and talking Qur’an)…

 

------------------------------

 

May Allah guide us all!

Well said and done brother.

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I think Ahlulbayt position is clear enough in Quran for people who sincerely want to submit to the truth and come with a love towards God's chosen ones and are cautious regarding God.

 

I think they are put there in a way that it's meant to be a trial in the same way Adam was a trial, and that people who want to deny and be blind to them will be, while those who want to see the truth regarding them will see it.

 

I think also there is a dark force on the hearts that prevents people from submitting to clear enough verses regarding them.

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I think Ahlulbayt position is clear enough in Quran for people who sincerely want to submit to the truth and come with a love towards God's chosen ones and are cautious regarding God.

 

I think they are put there in a way that it's meant to be a trial in the same way Adam was a trial, and that people who want to deny and be blind to them will be, while those who want to see the truth regarding them will see it.

 

I think also there is a dark force on the hearts that prevents people from submitting to clear enough verses regarding them.

 

Brother the problem is not about recognizing the Ahlel-Bayt ....

 

Each sect has their own version of Ahlebayt whom they consider as their divinely appointed guide based on their version of Hadiths. Even Sunni Muslims who don't believe in divine status of Imamate respect their version of Ahlebayt-e-Rasool (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) and they believe that niether Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) nor his descendants ever recognized any divine status of Imamate attribute to anyone after Prophet Muhammed (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) ...

 

The issue we are addressing here is:

 

i) The divine appointment of 12 individuals from the progeny of Ali (May Allah be pleased with him). We are investigating this issue from Qur'an alone since it is the primary source of guidance (which we both commonly agree) and has the complete basis of our fundamentals with clear explanations. Since the Qur'an is silent about it, we can not consider this concept the fundamental article of faith of Islam. Anyone rejecting this claim should be not be considered Non-Mumin by 12ers otherwise they'd be held accountable to Allah for this.

 

-- (OR) --

 

ii) There must be a divinely appointed Imam to lead Ummah and clarifies their differences based on his divine characteristics, knowledge etc. In that case he'd be considered a talking Qur'an and Hadith, and our 12er Shia brothers should not be a in a need to consult any BOOK compiled and narrated by any fallible human unless it is authenticated by the divinely appointed guide. 

 

When both of the above points do not seem fulfilled than I invite Shia brothers to reconsider their selection of a sect which has no clear basis in Qur'an and in addition to this, it is not even inline with its supposed dogma of divine Imamate which demands divine tangible leadership of infallible without any intervention of fallibles. 

 

Is following fallible narrators, fallible compilers of Hadith books , fallible Ayatullahs and Marjaz EQUAL TO following the current Infallible Imam? (Yes/No)?

Edited by investigating

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All I can do is suggest is reflecting over Quran more sincerely and also with revering Allah with awe of Allah. I think if you fear Allah when reading Quran, Satan will flee, and locks will unfold, and you will see Ahlulbayt status as in the divine appointment of Imams type of Ahlulbayt status there. 

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All I can do is suggest is reflecting over Quran more sincerely and also with revering Allah with awe of Allah. I think if you fear Allah when reading Quran, Satan will flee, and locks will unfold, and you will see Ahlulbayt status as in the divine appointment of Imams type of Ahlulbayt status there. 

 

 

You didn't address any of my issues in my post above. Please show me explicit verses of Qur'an that talks about divine appointment of 12 individuals from the progeny of Ali (May Allah be pleased with him)... How does Qur'an alone help us to believe and follow 12er version of Ahle-bait and how does it negate the Ismaili or Zadiyah version of Ahle-bayt? Also please respond the following question as well:

 

Is following fallible narrators, fallible compilers of Hadith books , fallible Ayatullahs and Marjaz EQUAL TO following the current Infallible Imam (Ahlebayt)? 

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All I can do is suggest is reflecting over Quran more sincerely and also with revering Allah with awe of Allah. I think if you fear Allah when reading Quran, Satan will flee, and locks will unfold, and you will see Ahlulbayt status as in the divine appointment of Imams type of Ahlulbayt status there. 

 

Brother the people are fond of moving in the circles of own wishes instead of pondering on the verses of quran to reach to the status of Ahl albayat, because Satan presents their such actions favorable for them in their eyes.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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You didn't address any of my issues in my post above. Please show me explicit verses of Qur'an that talks about divine appointment of 12 individuals from the progeny of Ali (May Allah be pleased with him)... How does Qur'an alone help us to believe and follow 12er version of Ahle-bait and how does it negate the Ismaili or Zadiyah version of Ahle-bayt? Also please respond the following question as well:

 

Is following fallible narrators, fallible compilers of Hadith books , fallible Ayatullahs and Marjaz EQUAL TO following the current Infallible Imam (Ahlebayt)? 

 

When you accept something from Quran it often opens up doors to other parts.

 

For example if you accept the wage of the message is to love the family of Mohammad, it will be seen that it's the inward central way of appreciating the message and itself described as a path towards God. A question can be raised, how was it a necessary part of the path towards God during the life time of Mohammad and how were believers tried with it. With that respect, the verses about Harun open up doors.

 

If you accept obedience to Ulil-Amr is revealed in context of the great authority of the family Ibrahim being emphasized, turning away from such authority resulting in punishment or believing in such ayatallah emphasized to bring about paradise, obedience to God and obedience to the Messenger emphasized, in this context Ulil-Amr obedience is emphasized a long side that, it becomes clear it's talking about the same divine authority of the family of Ibrahim, the same type that is obedience to God, the same type that is obedience to the Messenger, which all are primarily spiritual but include social and political aspects of life, then the emphasis on the Wilayah of Rasool through out Quran will seen to be inherited to that of the Ulil-Amr.

 

If you accept the chosen ones who inherited the book after it was revealed to Mohammad were not normal people, but special exalted chosen ones, then again other parts will open up.

 

And of these things that will open would be God's words that he gave clear proofs to Bani-Israel but they differed.

 

It would make then rational sense that we too would of be given clear proofs in form of the Sunnah and explanation of Rasool.

 

The number and names of the Imams would of been clarified by Rasool so that these clear proofs exist. The Sunnah thus would number and name the Imams.

 

There being only one set of number for the successors of Mohammad (saw), and there being only one set of names for these twelve successors, uttered by Rasool, they are a proof because Quran calls towards Al-Qurba/Ulil-Amr/Ahlul-Thikr/Ahlelbayt and so these would have to be clarified through the Sunnah.

 

Now if you accept that, then other verifications open up, like what Quran through out has described to be the religion and path to God, it being submitting to God, but not God alone, but through his Messenger, and the way to follow the Messenger, has been described to be love of the family of Mohammad and that is the way to appreciate God and the Messenger for Islam. That has been described to be the way to God. Now other verses show the nature that God has put humanity upon as well as following the creed of Ibrahim, is all the true religion. But essentially it is submission. The Submission has a designation now in the form of twelve Imams.

 

Now the Quran also for some reason states "twelve months" "four of them being sacred" is the true religion.  If you accept the more apparent designations of the Imams, this part will be a verification of the true religion being 12 Imams, with four being named Ali. I can discuss why the name "Ali" is sacred per Quran, but it doesn't mean the other Imams are not holy, just the names implies a sacred emphasis recognition with respect to Quran and Sunnah.

 

However, to me, the fact rationally, the Sunnah would clarify the number of Imams as well as their names, by Rasool, and there being only one number and one set of names, is enough proof that the Twelver Shiism is the right one out of the Shia religions that followed.

 

Regarding your last point, all you have to do is recall that there were Imams who Guide by God's command in the past, like in bani-Israel. Sticking to their teachings one by one was essential to the believers, but at the end, it's always possible for there to be fabrications. However the nation that follows God's appointed leaders and what they attribute to them carries more weight then those who reject them. However, essentially, in the same way Ibrahim was the one to lead people to the station meant for them,  Imam Mahdi is the spiritual guide of this age.  Not following the teachings of the Imams will close doors, while following the teachings of the Imams will open doors, and the vision of the malakut inshallah will take place, upon which Imam Mahdi will be present there in that vision to guide people to their destination.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Brother arguments or questions in reply to defend 12er version of Islam just weakens your creed. Believe me or not.

You nor I can't weaken my creed. It's about belief or disbelief. 

 

Brother all your explanation needs proof from Qur'an same as Qur'an holds proof for Prophethood and Messengership. Believing in Prophethood and Messengership is considered the criteria of salvation unlike believing any other position in Qur'an. Please read how Qur'an deals with Nabuwwah and Risaalah and compare its treatment with the so-called status of Imamate.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the links but I am here to debate. I'm not looking for recommendations. 

The criteria for salvation is that guidance and leadership are connected and always are sent from above. Never by majority of men. History shows us the clear results and diffirences. 

 

Brother the reason Allah starting this verse from "Kuntum" (as a condition) is the very reason that Allah bestowed this collective job of Dawah to this Ummah (for the first time) as a responsibility. It is the very reason that Allah talks about the most important pillar of Imaan at the end of verse in order to make the work of Dawah prominent for this Ummah. 

 

The collective job of Dawah was not present in previous Ummah, and that was the reason Allah kept on sending prophets after one another for their guidance. Yes Dawah in individual capacity was always there since start which revolves around their associates BUT not for entire community/mankind.

 

 

This is not correct. Enjoining good and forbidding wrong was an obligation in the Ummah of Isa a.s. as well as is written in the Holy Quran 5:79:

They used not to forbid eachother from the Munkar they commited. Vile indeed was what they used to do.

 

Caliphate is not the source of guidance for Muslims but the mere management of Muslim affairs (taking scholars as advisers). The foundation of guidance is mentioned in Qur'an and then we can refer to Hadith for more details.

 

 

Caliphate was about succession of Muhammad s.a.w. as Caliph means successor.

So if Caliph means successor (of Muhammad s.a.w.), he would never do things he'd later regret, he would not make mistakes out of ignorance, he would not attack those who were nearest to the Prophet s.a.w. and he would not replace the Maqam Ibrahim back to the place of the pre-Islamic period and if he does then he isn't worth, nor fit, nor capable to be a Caliph (successor) of Our Beloved Prophet MUhammad s.a.w.

A Caliph should be guided by Allah for when the blind leads the blind, that's when you're lost. 

 

 

Which are those Imams mentioned in Qur'an greater in status than other Prophets?

 

 

 

Ehm .. Shiachat is not a representative of my beliefs brother. 

I said that the Imams of the Ummah of Muhammad s.a.w. are higher in status than the Prophets of the past Ummah's and that is because of the status of Our Prophet and His Ummah which is the utlimate, the final, the universal and the definite one. 

That doesn't need further clarification as this is a common belief of Shia and Sunni. 

 

When did I say its about leadership? I just said that it is the first time Allah made the associates of any Prophets as an example to be followed for people after them to get eternal success in hereafter. Just to tell you that many things occurred the first time for this Ummah unlike before.

 

So driving analogy that since Allah had continued divine appointment before Prophet Muhammed (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) and would continue the same after him is a mere assumption if appointment of anyone is not unequivocally establishment in Qur'an.

 

Brother, there were believers in every Ummah, from the Ummah of Adam a.s. 'till Muhammad s.a.w. 

And yes indeed, those who were the first believers from this Ummah are given as an example to follow as belief is above disbelief but just because it is not mentioned in the Quran it doesn't mean that other Prophets a.s. invited people to believe as their first group of believers did and their second and so on.

It's a logical order and not something new or unique. 

 

Last but not least, it is the first time that there is no clear revelation from Allah in his book related to the specific appointment of anyone after Prophet Muhammed (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) due to the sealing of divine status of Prophethood but rather Allah promises the collective dominance of Ummah (Caliphate) based on the condition of their Emaan and Aaamaal in Surah Noor: 55. The divine status are not bestowed conditionally but always unconditionally.  

 

Well it went from bad to worse after the demise of the Prophet s.a.w. Sahaba started to torture, persecute, curse and kill eachother. I don't have to mention the condition of the Ummah today. 

We are all waiting for Imam Mahdi a.s. as he a.s. will restore the Ummah and bring her back to her pure origins as in the time of Muhammad s.a.w. because the latter and the former are guided and how could it be otherwise?

 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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At the end, the Quran is advising towards Taqwa.  It reminds a lot about people stubborn in disbelief in the path of submission chosen by God. Allah [swt] gave his authority to Talut, but then people disputed about him regarding his wealth, and when called to be steadfast in obeying God through him, very few followed the path of submission and were patient. When a King saw that Ibrahim was given authority, he disputed him due to the authority Ibrahim was given. Firon despite 9 clear signs rejected Musa because of the manifest authority he was coming with.

 

The inward of all this is that Satan beautifies the path of opposition to his chosen ones, and the path of submission clarified by God's proofs and arguments and verses. 

 

Some people deny God all together saying he could manifest himself and prove himself if he wanted us to follow him.

 

God is testing our sincerity to him. Every day in Salah we pray to be guided to the path of those who God favored. We then bless Mohammad and the family of Mohammad. Isn't  this a major sign Allah wants us to follow the family of Mohammad? 

 

Allah [swt] talked about the family of Nuh, the family of Ibrahim, the family of Musa and Harun, for a reason. 

 

The word of Taqwa was always via sticking to the chosen ones he ordained. Allah [swt] through his mercy has made this an easy means of achieving his pleasure. 

 

Allah [swt], all he asks as a wage for the message and way of showing gratitude for sending us Mohammad (saw), is to love the family of Mohammad. That would be a path towards Allah, and the reward with Allah is best, and verily Mohammad (saw) is calling us towards a straight path.

 

Allah [swt] knows the hatred and opposition to God's chosen ones, and is advising us, to do away with that, to not disbelieve in their holy station, but instead to love them, to support them, to help them, to follow their commands.

 

He knows if our hearts come with love towards family of Mohammad, we will recognize the beautiful names of God and pray to God with a attentive heart, attached to the light of the Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain and the 9 Imams from Hussain. We would through this love the continuation of the light of the Nabi, and would love the souls that are the soul of the Prophet.

 

He knows everything with the love of the family of Mohammad, the trials therein in the world, the injustice we have to have fortitude with, patience, it all becomes easy, and we will appreciate the message as it was meant to be appreciated. 

 

We will be through this as if we were God's Angels doing sujood to Adam, as if we entered the boat of Nuh, as if we entered the place of Ibrahim, as if we supported Isa.

 

God knew this was the way to continue his trial of submission, and hence was only pleased as Islam as a religion to be continued till the day of judgement, when he clarified the position of Ali, with respect to weighty importance of Quran and Ahlulbayt, on the day of ghadeer. 

 

It was through this, he knew the path towards him would be clear, bright, luminous, and the illumination of Quran is that it manifests the light of the Imams, and through the message of ghadeer, people would come with reflection to the Quran as it ought to be reflected upon and see the Imams appointed for guidance therein.

 

The issue is not that the proofs are not clear enough, the issue really is, is the heart in a state of surrender to God's guidance. 

 

If people want to deny that Mohammad (saw) is the last Prophet for example, they can very well do that according to technicalities and ignoring the obvious message about Mohammad (saw) being the last Prophet. They too could say God could of stated in a more clear decisive way. He could of repeated it through out Quran in different ways, etc, etc. 

 

The truth is God knows how to try us, and we don't know what is better for us. It's upon us to submit and humble our hearts to accepting the truth.

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...........

 

Brother I am really sorry. I could not see your entire post addressing my point:

 

 

How does Qur'an alone help us to believe and follow 12er version of Ahle-bait and how does it negate the Ismaili or Zadiyah version of Ahle-bayt? Also please respond the following question as well:

 

Is following fallible narrators, fallible compilers of Hadith books , fallible Ayatullahs and Marjaz EQUAL TO following the current Infallible Imam (Ahlebayt)? 

 

 

 

I was browsing through forum and came up with one of your post, it is really disappointed to have you seem to have no problem in considering the present book of Allah to be distorted:

 

bKwyUlE.png

 

For a guy like you instead of discussing the Qur'an which we have now, I'd just stick to guidance function of Imamate (i.e. your current) Imam.

 

So I'd like a definite answer of the following question in Yes or No (than we can proceed further):

 

How are you following Ahlelbayt today? Is following fallible narrators, fallible compilers of Hadith books , fallible Ayatullahs and Marjaz EQUAL TO following the current Infallible Imam (Ahlebayt)?

Edited by investigating

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I answered your questions as best I can. I'm not sure what you are not seeing. I don't want to repeat myself so I just suggest re-reading what I wrote. And I do believe Quran is protected, but I don't believe it's a problem of faith to not believe it's protected, just as it wasn't a problem of faith in the past to believe a book was corrupted.  I believe rational reasons do prove that seal of Prophets would have a protected book, but, it's not problematic to believe a revelation has been corrupted when all revelations were corrupted before Quran or not seeing the rational of why Quran would be protected.

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@Skanderbeg

 

I pray sincerely before Allah for your guidance and my guidance as well. Unfortunately even after more than couple of exchange of posts we didn't seem to have come up to any conclusion. Let me try to conclude it. (You have a right to reject it again):

 

i) I asserted that Qur'an is silent about the divine appointment of anyone after Prophet Muhammed (Sallauhu aliahi wasallam). This is enough for me to conclude that Allah didn't continue divine appointment in the Ummah of Prophet (Sallahu alahi wasallam). As for me the primary source of guidance is nothing more than Qur'an. Any group or sect believing any individual or group of individuals to be divinely appointed not backed explicitly by Qur'an is nothing more than sheer misguidance.

 

ii) The source of guidance for Muslims is never Caliphate as I corrected, but you didn't seem to agree with me on this. For me due to our Prophet being the last Prophet (May peace of Allah be upon him), his entire Ummah is HIS representatives on earth based on the conditional of collective job of Dawah bestowed by Allah in Qur'an. Caliphate is a mere management of Muslim affairs (taking scholars as advisers) just like we see the mere management of Iranian nation under the title of Wilayat-e-Faqih. The foundation of guidance is mentioned in Qur'an (not even Hadith) and then we can refer to Hadith for more details.

 

iii) Again if you argue that divine theory of Imamate exists, than I will inquire the its practical application today? How are you following your infallible Imam today? Is following fallible narrators, fallible compilers of Hadith books , fallible Ayatullahs and Marjaz EQUAL TO following the current Infallible Imam (Ahlebayt)?

 

--------------------------------------

 

Brother again if we can't come with any conclusion than lets pray Allah for each other. He will inshAllah show us the path which is most pleasing to HIM.

 

May Allah bless you for your effort to proselytize me to the path which according to you is the most pleasing to Allah.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

@StrugglingForTheLight

 

I answered your questions as best I can. I'm not sure what you are not seeing. I don't want to repeat myself so I just suggest re-reading what I wrote. And I do believe Quran is protected, but I don't believe it's a problem of faith to not believe it's protected, just as it wasn't a problem of faith in the past to believe a book was corrupted.  I believe rational reasons do prove that seal of Prophets would have a protected book, but, it's not problematic to believe a revelation has been corrupted when all revelations were corrupted before Quran or not seeing the rational of why Quran would be protected.

 

This is enough brother for me to refrain myself from discussing you from Qur'an. It won't be beneficial at all. 

 

Moreover, all your explanation of Qur'an doesn't convince a Ismaili Shia Muslim to reject their and accept your version of AhlelBayt. The explicit proofs are without any commentary that could solve the differences and clarifies the concept same as Allah clarified the concept of Tauheed, Risaalah, Akhirah etc.

 

Do you want to discuss with me about the guidance function of your last Infallible Imam? If so, please answer my question in relation to it mentioned in post #162

Edited by investigating

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Here:

Regarding your last point, all you have to do is recall that there were Imams who Guide by God's command in the past, like in bani-Israel. Sticking to their teachings one by one was essential to the believers, but at the end, it's always possible for there to be fabrications. However the nation that follows God's appointed leaders and what they attribute to them carries more weight then those who reject them. However, essentially, in the same way Ibrahim was the one to lead people to the station meant for them,  Imam Mahdi is the spiritual guide of this age.  Not following the teachings of the Imams will close doors, while following the teachings of the Imams will open doors, and the vision of the malakut inshallah will take place, upon which Imam Mahdi will be present there in that vision to guide people to their destination.

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Here:

 

Regarding your last point, all you have to do is recall that there were Imams who Guide by God's command in the past, like in bani-Israel. Sticking to their teachings one by one was essential to the believers, but at the end, it's always possible for there to be fabrications. However the nation that follows God's appointed leaders and what they attribute to them carries more weight then those who reject them. However, essentially, in the same way Ibrahim was the one to lead people to the station meant for them,  Imam Mahdi is the spiritual guide of this age.  Not following the teachings of the Imams will close doors, while following the teachings of the Imams will open doors, and the vision of the malakut inshallah will take place, upon which Imam Mahdi will be present there in that vision to guide people to their destination.

 

I believe Ahlebayt (not only 12 individuals but many other in the list among Prophet's progeny as well) were the practical demonstration of Qur'an and I try to follow them in matters of their patience, ikhlaaq, their connection with Allah (subhanahu wata'aala) and by following Qur'an itself. Brother every Shia sect claims to follow God appointed Imams based on which they deem to be Ahlel-Bayt. So this doesn't universally hold a proof for everyone.

 

Your Hadith narrators compile those teachings after the very occultation of your last Imam. If they compiled them at least at the time of 10 or 11th Imam, it'd would have some weight for 12er Shia brothers.

 

They didn't even bother making the representatives of last Imam to be their source of knowledge when he was in lesser occultation. 

 

The current leadership system of Wilayat-e-Faqih, Marjhs and collection of books compiled under fallible-made system for NON-12ER Muslims are nothing seem to be more than a mean to facilitate KHUMS-BUSINESS for elites of this sect. 

Edited by investigating

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As I stated, the Quran clarifies the family of Mohammad and Imams are chosen and exalted, and to be loved, and obeyed. When we read in Quran that Bani-Israel were given clear proofs with regards to the affair (ie. of submission, the religion), it means we too would be given clear proofs.

 

As Quran calls to them generally, we would need Sunnah to clarify their number and names. That said, there exists only one set of names named by the Rasool as well as one number.

 

Thus these stand as a Hujja (proof). 

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Guys, remember, in Quran, Allah [swt] repeats that disbelievers kept on saying "Why not a sign brought down from his Lord", when there was no shortage of miracles, they wanted some decisive sign that would make everyone certain and "see" the truth clearly. 

 

"I don't see" often is not proof of something not being clear, but, rather that the person is trying to make his denial and disbelief a proof of the matter being unclear.

 

If this was the case, then neither is Quran a Hujja, neither is Allah and his light a hujja, and there is no proof regarding the religion either. 

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Salam brother, 

First and foremost I want to thank you that you offer your precious time and energy to discuss these delicate matters with your Shia brethren.

May Allah guide us all.
 

i) I asserted that Qur'an is silent about the divine appointment of anyone after Prophet Muhammed (Sallauhu aliahi wasallam). This is enough for me to conclude that Allah didn't continue divine appointment in the Ummah of Prophet (Sallahu alahi wasallam). As for me the primary source of guidance is nothing more than Qur'an. Any group or sect believing any individual or group of individuals to be divinely appointed not backed explicitly by Qur'an is nothing more than sheer misguidance.

To believe Muhammad s.a.w. is appointed by Allah does indicate that we have to obey him s.a.w. and those he s.a.w. appointed after him s.a.w.
 

ii) The source of guidance for Muslims is never Caliphate as I corrected, but you didn't seem to agree with me on this. For me due to our Prophet being the last Prophet (May peace of Allah be upon him), his entire Ummah is HIS representatives on earth based on the conditional of collective job of Dawah bestowed by Allah in Qur'an. Caliphate is a mere management of Muslim affairs (taking scholars as advisers) just like we see the mere management of Iranian nation under the title of Wilayat-e-Faqih. The foundation of guidance is mentioned in Qur'an (not even Hadith) and then we can refer to Hadith for more details.

 

i) Islam to me means total submission to Allah without any human interference except in some cases that doesn't affect the limits of Sharia let alone guidance and leadership which as I said it again and again comes from the Above and was, is and never will be a case of the majority of our Ummah or men as a whole. History is our evidence that this lead to a catastrophy for Islam and the Ummah.

ii) It is my belief and conviction that Allah would never pass leadership and guidance to those who are not fit and capable for it but some took it by self-legitimized, private and spontaneous consultations wherein they decided the rules for themselves and history is our evidence that this lead to a catastrophy for Islam and the Ummah.

iii) The Quran is our fundament of belief but the Quran is not sufficient as Umar claimed during the Tragedy of Thursday. And the Ummah went astray indeed as the Prophet s.a.w. already predicted because of the disobedience of some of his Sahaba. 
 

iii) Again if you argue that divine theory of Imamate exists, than I will inquire the its practical application today? How are you following your infallible Imam today? Is following fallible narrators, fallible compilers of Hadith books , fallible Ayatullahs and Marjaz EQUAL TO following the current Infallible Imam (Ahlebayt)? 

 

It's not only about fallibles or unfallibles. It's about obedience and disobedience. When people go astray and follow self-proclaimed leaders and their invented procedures of consultation then the line of narration stops with those people. Anyone who hated Imam Ali a.s. for example shouldn't considered to be a reliable person in a hadith chain wether he or she was fallible or not. 

Our hadith chains consist of the infallibles and those fallibles who followed them in all aspects and manners. Not those who usurped without permission, hated or waged war with the Ahl al-Bayt a.s.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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Walaikumassalam! May Allah bless you and both of us the path which is the most pleasing to HIM let us enjoy the highest level of abode in Firdaus along with our families.

 

 

To believe Muhammad s.a.w. is appointed by Allah does indicate that we have to obey him s.a.w. and those he s.a.w. appointed after him s.a.w.

 

Brother this has to be proven from Qur'an if that appointment is divine in nature like Prophethood.

 

Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe. (12:111)

 

I want the answers of following questions from Qur'an:

  • What is such appointment called?

 

  • If is called "Imamate" than where are the verses of Qur'an that asks to believe and follow that station in the same manner it asked us to follow Prophethood and Messengership?

 

  • Who was that appointee after the Prophet Isa (alahi salam) went into ascension before Prophet Muhammed (s)?

 

  • Where does the Qur'an say "World can not be empty without Imams?" Qur'an doesn't talk about any Imam after Esa (Alayhi Salam).  However Esa (Alayhi Salam) mentions himself as the witness amongst the Israelites because he was the Prophet sent to them. It is puzzling as to why Isa (Alayhi Salam) does not mention any “Infallible Imaam” as the person who kept watch over the Children of Israel after his departure. According to the Shia faith, Isa (Alayhi Salam) did in fact appoint someone to succeed him before he left, yet there is no trace of him neither in this Ayah nor in the other Verses (such as 2:252, 19:37, etc.) that mention the problems that arose after Isa’s (Alayhi Salam) ascension.

 

  • It is of extreme importance to note that when any dignitary or official in this world is addressed, he/she is referred to by the highest rank that he/she occupies.Given this criteria, it is interesting to note that the Holy Quran never addresses Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam) as “Oh Imaam” or “This Imaam”. None of the places where Allah uses the word “Imaam” directly refers to Prophet Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam). Allah explicitly says that Muhammad (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Salaam) is indeed NO MORE THAN His Rasul and Nabi, none of them mention him as an Imaam or anything evensimilar to that.

 

  • If Imamate is the highest level of station elevated after Prophethood than why Ibrahim (as) still called by his lower station of Prophethood in Qur'an?

 

  • What was the role of Ibrahim (as) after he was elevated to the rank of Imamate for the guidance of mankind?

 

  • What are the occurrences mentioned in Qur'an when Allah appointed such non-prophet appointees as Imams?

 

  • How did those appointees present their appointment before their followers?

 

  • Does Qur'an talk about any incident in past when their temporal authoritative positions were snatched? How does Allah present such situation in Qur'an?

 

  • Where does Allah say He'd appoint anyone after Prophet Muhammed

 

  • How many of those will be appointed?

 

  • What methodology we should adopt if an appointed guide goes in occulation?

 

  • What if we don't believe in those appointees? Do we have any Wa'eed in Qur'an like the Wa'eed for disbelieving in messengers of Allah?

 

  • What if we believe in those appointees? Do we have glad-tidings in Qur'an like that of believing in prophets and messengers of Allah?

 

  • What is the ruling for those who snatch the temporal position of those appointees?

 

If you can't present explicit proof from Qur'an to respond my above queries than I am sorry I am obliged to reject such appointment no matter if you bring million of such hadith in favor of it since "Fundamental Article of Faith of Islam" are established from Qur'an. Yes if Qur'an compliments the above queries than we'd investigate the Hadith to know their names and identities for sure.

 

Surah Kahf (18:54-58)

 

18_54.png
 

And We have certainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every [kind of] example; but man has ever been, most of anything, [prone to] dispute.
 

 

18_55.png
 
And nothing has prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from asking forgiveness of their Lord except that there [must] befall them the [accustomed] precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come [directly] before them.
 
18_56.png
 
And We send not the messengers except as bringers of good tidings and warners. And those who disbelieve dispute by [using] falsehood to [attempt to] invalidate thereby the truth and have taken My verses, and that of which they are warned, in ridicule.
 
18_57.png
 

And who is more unjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away from them and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.

 

18_58.png
 
And your Lord is the Forgiving, full of mercy. If He were to impose blame upon them for what they earned, He would have hastened for them the punishment. Rather, for them is an appointment from which they will never find an escape.

 

 

 

It's not only about fallibles or unfallibles. It's about obedience and disobedience. When people go astray and follow self-proclaimed leaders and their invented procedures of consultation then the line of narration stops with those people. Anyone who hated Imam Ali a.s. for example shouldn't considered to be a reliable person in a hadith chain wether he or she was fallible or not. 

Our hadith chains consist of the infallibles and those fallibles who followed them in all aspects and manners. Not those who usurped without permission, hated or waged war with the Ahl al-Bayt a.s.

 

This is merely your claim brother. This claim is not enough to prove the validity of 12er version of Islam. I am amazed why are you having to rely on fallible-rejal system when you have a doctrine of Imamate with you? Simply it doesn't seem applicable for than a thousand of years because of the absence of your Imam.

 

The above claim could stand ONLY against Sunnis if they supposed to believe their list of caliphs to be divinely appointed individuals against your version of divinely appointed Imams. For us Caliphs are never intrinsic authorities just like Imam Khomeini and Khamnei is not considered intrinisc authorities. It is the same as you mentioned:

 

 

except in some cases that doesn't affect the limits of Sharia

 

Our intrinsic authorities are Qur'an and then for details we refer to Hadith and then to the consensus of scholars based on the deductions of Qur'an and Hadith. One can differ after Qur'an but we can not differ based on any fundamental article of faith derived from Hadith or consensus of scholars. That is the very reason you will still find Hadith in our books related to the Love Ali, Husayn and Hassan (May Allah be pleased with them all and let me kiss their feets on the day of judgment). And not only 12, our scholars were in contact with larger group of people from the progney of blessed Ahle-bayt.

 

If you think any Caliphate establish something against Qur'an, it is obligatory for your to reject it! I invite you to

 

Take Qur'an as your Furqa-e-Azeem.

List down the beliefs which Qur'an commands you to believe.

List down the rituals which Qur'an wants you to perform.

List down all the DO's and DONT's from Qur'an.

 

And then consult your 4 books (attributed to your previous Imams) to have more details for those foundation you have found from Qur'an and leave those un-touched which has no clear basis from Qur'an. This is what you'll be asked for on the day of judgement.

 

AGAIN If you find Imamate to be as clear as mentioned in my above queries than let me know I will immediately embrace the Imamate version of Islam.
 

------------------------------------------------------------------

@StrugglingforLight

 

I will inshAllah respond you some other time in detail. To be brief, the verse of Kinship has nothing to do with theory of Imamate. The signs which Kuffars demanded from Prophet was some kind of miracle. Prophet Muhammed was among them which was an enough sign.. I am not asking you for miracle but only the guidance which your 12th Imam is supposed to deliver to the mankind.
 

Edited by investigating

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The issue is God doesn't guide people who disbelieve in God's proofs regarding the path of submission. It's upon them to stop their opposition and turn to God in repentance, and take that step of guidance. Then God will guide them.

 

If you read verses 4:52-59 it reveals the authority of the Ulil-Amr in context of the authority of the family of Ibrahim before the verse, in emphasis to believe in such great authority from God and not turn away from it, in this context emphasis in believing in God's Ayat, in context of obedience to God and obedience to the Messenger within the verse, and with emphasis of obedience to every Messenger after the verse...the context in that divine absolute authority, spiritual authority is included, and it's not talking about governors.

 

In these verses we see

 

1) Comparison to family of Ibrahim authority and contrast to that of the Taghut (false misguiding authority).

2) Comparison to a grace on a certain people with that of the family of Ibrahim.

3) Emphasis to believe in such authority and not turn away from it

4) Link to believing in God's Ayat

5) Obedience to God and the Messenger is emphasized to give even more context to obedience to Ulil-Amr.

6) Emphasis that part of this obedience is to refer all disputes back to God and the Messenger, showing Ulil-Amr always command towards Quran and Sunnah.

 

But of course, I'm sure this has nothing to do with the theory of Imammate. Right.


 

@StrugglingforLight

 

I will inshAllah respond you some other time in detail. To be brief, the verse of Kinship has nothing to do with theory of Imamate. The signs which Kuffars demanded from Prophet was some kind of miracle. Prophet Muhammed was among them which was an enough sign.. I am not asking you for miracle but only the guidance which your 12th Imam is supposed to deliver to the mankind.
 

 

The point is disbelievers have always made demands for more clearer proof no matter how clear the proof is. This is nothing new.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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@StrugglingForTheLight

 

Brother again, why always when it comes to divine status specifies in 12er theory of Imamate, Shia brothers have to add a lot of interpretation to the verses of Qur'an which are open to different interpretations?

 

The message of Qur'an applies to all times perfectly without any flaws.

 

Ulul'Amr are authorities in PLURAL present among believers which negates the very concept of Imamate that there must be ONE Imam at one time. In another place (4:83) it is used in past connotation talking about PLURAL individuals to be consulted at the time of Prophet Muhammed (Sallauhu alahi wasallam)  for the confirmation of news. If it was a divinely appointed authority, it could never have been established during the presence of Prophet (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam). And the last part of the verse that talks about referring to Allah and his Rasool (saw) for final determination nullifies the idea of Ulil'Amr being intrinsic authority again. The clear proof would be:

 

O ye who believe! Obey Allah, Obey Rasool (saw) and descendants of ahlebait-e-rasool after him. If ye differ in anything amongst yourself you should always refer to the descendants of ahlebait-e-rasool, which is the best for final determination if you believe in Allah.

 

When I am asking for clear proof from Qur'an it is because Qur'an says that it is easy, clear, lucid, without any crookedness and detailed explanation for the guidance of mankind. Are you resembling me from disbelievers for asking clear proofs from Qur'an for the fundamental article of my faith?

Edited by investigating

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There can be different interpretations to other things in Quran, for example, the verse stating Mohammad is the Seal of Prophets can be interpreted that he is the seal of their journey, their end destination, as each Prophet is as they are same path. This is what Bahais do for example.

 

Does it mean it's not clear enough because people can interpret differently?

 

Allah [swt] gave context with the authority of Ulil-Amr with

 

1) The great authority (mulk) given to the family of Ibrahim

2) With emphasis in believing in such authority and Ayatallah while disbelieving it and ayatallah resulting in hell.

3) With obedeince to God and the Messenger

4) Obedience to Messengers in general after the verse.

 

It's clear enough. Of course, you are already determined to deny everything related to Ahlulbayt and this is the nature of disbelief, it denies all proofs of the chosen path of submission towards God which in this day and age is Ahlulbayt instead of seeking the truth.

 

In this way, Sunnis, thinking they are saved from being disbelievers, are in clear loss, when they walk the same path as them. They make excuses, like, they do for the ghadeer declaration. But this will not save them on the day of judgement.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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