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What Evidence Do The Shia Have For The Existence..

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My beloved brother in Islam, the proof for "Imam Al-Mahdi" won't make any difference for Mainstream Muslims unless the Imam is present among us to guide us. (This is what Shia theory of Imamate works like)...

 

The hadith of 12 rulers (which doesn't specify them from Banu Hashim) in Sunni tradition won't make them believe that they have to follow an (imaginary and Absent) Imam who has been hidden for more than 1000 years and will come at the end of the world to lead Ummah.

 

Now tell me how could I follow the supposed divine guidance of your 12th Imam today?

you can't and you shouldn't .

He is not your imam. 

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you can't and you shouldn't .

He is not your imam. 

 

Brother, I am really sorry but your comment shows your anger towards my questions.

 

I suppose Prophet Muhammed (May the peace, blessings and mercy of Allah be upon him) was sent for all Mankind and the same theory should be applied to Imamate as well.

 

How the theory of Imamate can be hold as a Hujjah against majority of Mainstream Muslims when:

 

i) Qur'an is silent about the 12 Imams and also silent about the methodology to adopt for guidance in the occultation of last Imam.

 

ii) There is no Imam or direct representatives appointed by Imam in his absence to tell them how to follow the divine guidance of Imamate today?

 

The system of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh, the system of Hadith, the system of Ilm-e-rijaal, historical accounts (both Shia and Sunnis) are eventually managed and created by fallible human beings. How could these be relied without the approval of the present divine authority if we take the Shia theory of Imamate into consideration?

Edited by investigating

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Imam as-Sajjad (as) said:

 

“The light of the Imam in the hearts of the faithful is more brilliant than that of the brilliant day star.”
Al-Kafi, vol. 1, p. 276.

 

It is in this way that the true believer takes guidance from the Imam during the period of his Occultation.

 

 

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ
يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe. (6:125)

وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَيَجْعَلُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ
And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. (10;100)

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا
Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity, O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification. (33:33)


Thus confirming that Al-Rijs / uncleanliness is kept away from the Pure Progeny of the Prophet by Allah swt. Those who are kept away from Ahl albayat include who do not use reason  and those who do not believe in the truth revealed by Allah swt.

 

Regards.

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Brother, I am really sorry but your comment shows your anger towards my questions.

 

I suppose Prophet Muhammed (May the peace, blessings and mercy of Allah be upon him) was sent for all Mankind and the same theory should be applied to Imamate as well.

 

How the theory of Imamate can be hold as a Hujjah against majority of Mainstream Muslims when:

 

i) Qur'an is silent about the 12 Imams and also silent about the methodology to adopt for guidance in the occultation of last Imam.

 

ii) There is no Imam or direct representatives appointed by Imam in his absence to tell them how to follow the divine guidance of Imamate today?

 

The system of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh, the system of Hadith, the system of Ilm-e-rijaal, historical accounts (both Shia and Sunnis) are eventually managed and created by fallible human beings. How could these be relied without the approval of the present divine authority if we take the Shia theory of Imamate into consideration?

actually, the prophet example is good one.

 

Let's say an atheist asked you to "guide" him. He asked you to provide an external evidence that Islam is mandatory for guidance and that there is no other way to make it safely. He demanded a text in which Islam is mentioned thus and where it clearly states that non other than muslims will make it to heaven.

Then he asked you, if Muhammad is the last guide, how he can contact him? In person not through some fallible humans. How he can be certain that the Quran we have today had not been altered while we do have variations in the way it is recited (Qira'at) and claims through history made by companions of Mumhamad (including his second successor and his wife) that Quran was altered?

 

Then he said , if Muhammad is true guide, then how come I am still misguided? I cannot see a way to be guided through him. I want to be guided while I am an atheist then i'll think about conversion.

 

Well, Tuz in that atheists. If he wanted to be guided by Muhammad, he should follow what Muhammad said. If he dose not want to be guided by Muhammad then he will not follow Muhammad.

 

Your case is similar. You don't want to be guided by Imam Mahdi. Those who want to be guided by Him will convert to shia 12er islam and will be guided by him.

 

 

 

The system of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh, the system of Hadith, the system of Ilm-e-rijaal, historical accounts (both Shia and Sunnis) are eventually managed and created by fallible human beings. How could these be relied without the approval of the present divine authority if we take the Shia theory of Imamate into consideration?

 

lol

The conspiracy theory!

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actually, the prophet example is good one.

 

Let's say an atheist asked you to "guide" him. He asked you to provide an external evidence that Islam is mandatory for guidance and that there is no other way to make it safely. He demanded a text in which Islam is mentioned thus and where it clearly states that non other than muslims will make it to heaven.

Then he asked you, if Muhammad is the last guide, how he can contact him? In person not through some fallible humans. How he can be certain that the Quran we have today had not been altered while we do have variations in the way it is recited (Qira'at) and claims through history made by companions of Mumhamad (including his second successor and his wife) that Quran was altered?

 

Then he said , if Muhammad is true guide, then how come I am still misguided? I cannot see a way to be guided through him. I want to be guided while I am an atheist then i'll think about conversion.

 

Well, Tuz in that atheists. If he wanted to be guided by Muhammad, he should follow what Muhammad said. If he dose not want to be guided by Muhammad then he will not follow Muhammad.

 

{[what above you mentioned is for atheists, who dont believe in Quran and Allah, but questioner in muslim ! And not good examples you have given, bcoz there are evidences for Prophet s.a.w that He exists historically ! But there are not evidence of 12th imam's existence, except some letters posted without address proof, that is why he is worried about, i think !]}

Your case is similar. You don't want to be guided by Imam Mahdi. Those who want to be guided by Him will convert to shia 12er islam and will be guided by him.

 

 {[Thanks you cleared that imam mahdi is for only shias, not for all humanity !]}

lol

The conspiracy theory!

lol, ofcourse it was conspiracy by bread & butter seller=qumsi who duped you all !

M/Slm.

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Brother, I am really sorry but your comment shows your anger towards my questions.

 

I suppose Prophet Muhammed (May the peace, blessings and mercy of Allah be upon him) was sent for all Mankind and the same theory should be applied to Imamate as well.

 

How the theory of Imamate can be hold as a Hujjah against majority of Mainstream Muslims when:

 

i) Qur'an is silent about the 12 Imams and also silent about the methodology to adopt for guidance in the occultation of last Imam.

 

ii) There is no Imam or direct representatives appointed by Imam in his absence to tell them how to follow the divine guidance of Imamate today?

 

The system of Wilayat-e-Faqeeh, the system of Hadith, the system of Ilm-e-rijaal, historical accounts (both Shia and Sunnis) are eventually managed and created by fallible human beings. How could these be relied without the approval of the present divine authority if we take the Shia theory of Imamate into consideration?

The Holy Quran shows us clearly how Allah works and that His ways never changed. Yet you claimed that after the departure of Muhammad s.a.w. Islam suddenly changed and became a human affair based on elections and ijtihad. 

What is more in line with the Islam of the Quran? Imamate or Caliphate? Divine guidance of appointed ones or ijtihad of scholars with the title of Imam?

Man on the horse .. I know you're too smart to overlook this.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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actually, the prophet example is good one.

 

Let's say an atheist asked you to "guide" him. He asked you to provide an external evidence that Islam is mandatory for guidance and that there is no other way to make it safely. He demanded a text in which Islam is mentioned thus and where it clearly states that non other than muslims will make it to heaven.

Then he asked you, if Muhammad is the last guide, how he can contact him? In person not through some fallible humans. How he can be certain that the Quran we have today had not been altered while we do have variations in the way it is recited (Qira'at) and claims through history made by companions of Mumhamad (including his second successor and his wife) that Quran was altered?

 

Then he said , if Muhammad is true guide, then how come I am still misguided? I cannot see a way to be guided through him. I want to be guided while I am an atheist then i'll think about conversion.

 

Well, Tuz in that atheists. If he wanted to be guided by Muhammad, he should follow what Muhammad said. If he dose not want to be guided by Muhammad then he will not follow Muhammad.

 

Your case is similar. You don't want to be guided by Imam Mahdi. Those who want to be guided by Him will convert to shia 12er islam and will be guided by him.

 

 

lol

The conspiracy theory!

 

Brother your example doesn't relate at all with the guidance function of Imam of the present time.

 

We don't have a notion that there should always be a Prophet till day of judgement to guide mankind. Prophet Muhammed (saw) is a historical icon even praised by non-Muslims. One of the best signs he left is still with us today, l.e. Qur'an. When the atheist is invited to Islam, we'll present him Qur'an and how it is compatible with Modern Science even today.

 

In contrary Shia brothers insist to believe in dogma that there should always be a divine leader present to lead mankind. And Allah can not leave mankind without divine leadership. So where has been the divine leader now for more than 1000 of years? Did he leave any sign of miracle (like Prophet left Qur'an) or any tafsir, book of Hadith or Fiqah or any direct representatives to establish his divine leadership for billions of people living today and have passed so far? Shia Muslims had no leadership system up to the Iranian revolution and the system of Welayate Faqih that is the leadership system in the current Iran is nothing but a man made system in which people elect certain scholars to elect a leader for them.

 

Who authorized your scholars to elect a fallible leader in absence of your Imam?

 

 

 

Your case is similar. You don't want to be guided by Imam Mahdi. Those who want to be guided by Him will convert to shia 12er islam and will be guided by him.

 

Again this doesn't seem rational. How can I convert to 12er Islam without following the Imam of my time? If following fallible ayatullahs, books narrated and compiled by fallible people and relying on fallible (self-proclaimed) companions of your Imam is what the 12er Shia islam is all about than I am sorry I am not interested a bit.

 

How can I believe a sect which is not even in accordance with the very basis of its own theory of Imamate (the theory that differentiates them from mainstream Islam)? If some one becomes a Shia these days, nothing will be changed for him in terms of guidance. He/she will combine the prayers and attend ceremonies for Hussain and pay Khums to scholars and rub his feet in ablution and start a debate over Internet by a user name like Ex-Sunni but nothing in terms of being directed by a divine Imam. So what? Shia says it is obligatory to know the Imam of your time, but from the so-called Imam of their time what do they know? Anything more than his name and the fact that he will not come out till near the end of the world? So is it all about knowing a name rather than actual guidance?

 

 

 

Imam as-Sajjad (as) said:

 

“The light of the Imam in the hearts of the faithful is more brilliant than that of the brilliant day star.”

Al-Kafi, vol. 1, p. 276.

 

It is in this way that the true believer takes guidance from the Imam during the period of his Occultation.

 

 

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ

يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe. (6:125)

وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَيَجْعَلُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. (10;100)

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity, O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification. (33:33)

Thus confirming that Al-Rijs / uncleanliness is kept away from the Pure Progeny of the Prophet by Allah swt. Those who are kept away from Ahl albayat include who do not use reason  and those who do not believe in the truth revealed by Allah swt.

 

Regards.

 

 

Brother the hadith has nothing to do with the guidance function of present Imam for those who are not born in 12er Shia family. Also the verses of Qur'an doesn't talk about the methodology to adopt during the occultation period. So it seems irrelevant sorry.

 

Also please post full hadith in arabic with narrators. I want to read its context. 

 

 

The Holy Quran shows us clearly how Allah works and that His ways never changed. Yet you claimed that after the departure of Muhammad s.a.w. Islam suddenly changed and became a human affair based on elections and ijtihad. 

What is more in line with the Islam of the Quran? Imamate or Caliphate? Divine guidance of appointed ones or ijtihad of scholars with the title of Imam?

Man on the horse .. I know you're too smart to overlook this.

 

Brother Skanderbeg, so what's your justification of the Wilaayat-e-Faqih in which certain scholars elect the fallible leader? (The current leadership system in Iran)? Is it more inline with theory of Imamate or the fact that there should have been a present Imam to fulfill the Hujjah of guidance for Humanity today?

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Salam brother on the horse, 

We take our knowledge from those who were divinely appointed and not from those who organised or/and were elected in a spontaneaous invented election at a certain place and time by humans. 

Scholars and their leadership are from another degree. The thing that matters is who do they (scholars) take as their guides and source of knowledge. 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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Salam brother on the horse, 

We take our knowledge from those who were divinely appointed and not from those who organised or/and were elected in a spontaneaous invented election at a certain place and time by humans. 

Scholars and their leadership are from another degree. The thing that matters is who do they (scholars) take as their guides and source of knowledge. 

 

May peace be on you.

 

Scholars and their leadership are from another degree? Can you please throw some light on how the present Imam explains such degree of leadership? Did your Imams allow scholars to do the election of their leadership system themselves during occulation? Do you have textual proofs for that?

 

And please describe the source of knowledge of your scholars? Are they in direct correspondence with your present Imam?

Edited by investigating

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Don't think, feel! It is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory. Do you understand? 

 

Brother please stop being philosophical and tell us the textual proofs for your Imams allowing scholars to be elected in leadership during the occulation of your present Imam.

 

And please describe the source of knowledge of your scholars? Are they in direct correspondence with your present Imam?

 

Or do tell me If these questions are hurting you, I will quit contributing in this thread.

Edited by investigating

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Brother please stop being philosophical and tell us the textual proofs for your Imams allowing scholars to be elected in leadership during the occulation of your present Imam.

 

And please describe the source of knowledge of your scholars? Are they in direct correspondence with your present Imam?

 

I actually don't care as long the fundament (the guides and source of the knowledge of the scholars) is right the rest doesn't matter or better said is irrelevant to me.

It's maybe not a bad idea to check your fundament (those your sect consider to be authorities and sources of knowledge) as well.

After that you can go deeper and concentrate on the details of scholarschip etcetera.

 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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I actually don't care as long the fundament (the guides and source of the knowledge of the scholars) is right the rest doesn't matter or better said is irrelevant to me.

 

Brother that's what I am inquiring? Who are the guides and source of knowledge of your scholars? Are they in direct correspondence with your present infallible leader? Yes or No?

 

All of the Islamic Sects (Sunnis, Zaidyahs, Bohras, Aga Khanis etc.) claim to follow the best source of knowledge that is Allah (Qur'an) and his Rasool (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) through their preferred and relied chain of transmitters and interpreters.

 

We are not debating if Prophet Muhammed and his AhlelBayt are the right source of guidance or not. No sects debate on that either. Every Shia sect ultimately has their own list of Imams who they claim to be Ahlelbayt and even Sunnis have their own version of people a part from Ahle-Kitha who they include under this title. So your supposition that your scholars claiming to deem your version of Ahlelbayt to be their source of Guidance is enough for you to believe on them doesn't hold a bit of weight against the Non-12er Muslims. 

 

To conclude with your statement I must say that you are blindly following fallible leaders (going against your own theory of Imamate which demands divine guidance from Infallible Imam) to satisfy your inner-soul of following Ahlel-Bayt same like other Shia Sects are doing.

 

Again, do tell me If my questions are hurting you, I will quit contributing in this thread.

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From Alkafi:

 

H 495, Ch. 13, h 1

Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn Mirdas who has said that Saffron ibn Yahya and al-Hassan ibn Mahbub have narrated from abu Ayyub from abu Khalid al-Kabuli who has said that he asked Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) about the meaning of the words of Allah e following. "Those who believe in him, honor and help him, and follow the light which is sent down to him, will have everlasting happiness." (7:157) The Imams (a.s.) said, "O abu Khalid, I swear by Allah that it is the Imams from the family of the Holy Prophet (s.a.) up to the Day of judgment who are called light in the above verse. They, I swear by Allah, are the light of Allah whom He sent down. It is they, I swear by Allah, who are the light of Allah in the heavens and in the earth. O abu Khalid, I swear by Allah, that the light of the Imams (a.s.) in the hearts of the true believers is more bright than the light of the sun in the midday. They, I swear by Allah, give light to the hearts of the true believers and Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, may block such light from reaching the hearts of whoever He may will, thus their hearts remain dark. O abu Khalid, no one would believe in our Divine authority except that Allah will cleanse his heart. Allah will not cleanse the heart of a person until he or she will acknowledge our Divine authority and live in peace with us. When one lives in peace with us Allah will safe guard him against the severity of the day of recockning and grant him security against the great terror on the Day of Judgment"

 

 

We get the guidance from the light of imam as mentioned in above tradition.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Salam

 

Read this Du'a: http://www.duas.org/allahummaarrifni.htm

 

It talks about asking God to guide us upon the straight path by the hands of Imam Mahdi, and to make us know our Imam and make us look towards him in a clear decisive proof manner while the proof, light, manifestation all belongs to God. It also asks God to guide all believers with the hands of Imam Mahdi.

 

In Quran it talks about Ibrahim being made an Imam for humanity, but we know he was already a leader and guide in the general sense. So what it meant is a comprehensive guide and leader to the journey to God, one who accompanies the travellers to God and this position of Ibrahim in reality was the Qibla of the heart of believers for he was the face of God by which the friends of God direct themselves to and turn to. And this leadership position continued in his offspring and it's not simply that of words but that of showing the way inwardly. The Quran also says every people will be called with a witness from themselves, and in another verse talks about being called with an Imam from themselves.

 

Remember while the "sign" to bring certain asked for, is "unseen" and "for every people there is a guide", ultimately, "who Allah misguides, there is no Guide" and "who Allah gives no light to, has no light".

 

Yaqoub was likened to be the Sun in the dream of Yusuf.

 

The way to the malakut is to look hard within ourselves and ask God to help us with the command "will they not look towards the malakut of the heavens and the earth, and of what Allah has created...". We know Ibrahim saw the malakut and then attained certainty as a result, and the same can happen with us.

 

The light is close by to those who seek it and help is close by to those who sincerely submit and believe in God's Ayat and ask for his divine help.

 

Those who denies God's Ayat (including that of Imams appointed by him), God has promised he will not guide them nor will they enter paradise.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Brother that's what I am inquiring? Who are the guides and source of knowledge of your scholars? Are they in direct correspondence with your present infallible leader? Yes or No?

 

 

The guides and source of knowledge of our scholars were those who were guided by Allah as He is the One who appointed them. The Twelve Imams a.s.

And not those who opposed them a.s., persecuted them a.s., threatened them a.s. or killed them a.s. wether it be the father of his wive, the one who claimed that he s.a.w. was delirious in the incident of Black Thursday or even his wife himself. 

Islam judges people by their deeds and doesn't know diplomatic immunity. 

 

All of the Islamic Sects (Sunnis, Zaidyahs, Bohras, Aga Khanis etc.) claim to follow the best source of knowledge that is Allah (Qur'an) and his Rasool (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) through their preferred and relied chain of transmitters and interpreters.

 

 

 

This is not just a matter of personal preference. We should try to find out which chain is the golden chain. The chain of Allah.

 

We are not debating if Prophet Muhammed and his AhlelBayt are the right source of guidance or not. No sects debate on that either. Every Shia sect ultimately has their own list of Imams who they claim to be Ahlelbayt and even Sunnis have their own version of people a part from Ahle-Kitha who they include under this title. So your supposition that your scholars claiming to deem your version of Ahlelbayt to be their source of Guidance is enough for you to believe on them doesn't hold a bit of weight against the Non-12er Muslims. 

 

 

 

First of all, who is we?Second of all I don't know about you but as long I study this subject it is in fact all about the right source of guidance.

From Sunni perspective the funny thing is that they believe leadership and guidance are two separate things and therefore indeed it's not strange that you put it the way you did as it is founded on a fallacy.

 

To conclude with your statement I must say that you are blindly following fallible leaders (going against your own theory of Imamate which demands divine guidance from Infallible Imam) to satisfy your inner-soul of following Ahlel-Bayt same like other Shia Sects are doing.

 

 

As I told you before I'll tell you again. Maybe I should state it in diffirent wording to make it more comprehensible to you. 

The right source of guidance should be the fundament of your belief as they are the mediators of knowledge and the living examples of the application of islam in life in its pure form.

The scholars are the house that is built on this fundament. The fundament should be strong and not weak as it is the fundament that makes the house strong. 

On the other hand one can build a beautiful castle but when its foundation is sand or muddy waters the building will collapse and not stand firm. 

That is why one should check its foundation first and later concentrate on the house itself.

 

 

Again, do tell me If my questions are hurting you, I will quit contributing in this thread.

 

 

 

You are free to think, believe and do what you want. 

 

 Are they in direct correspondence with your present infallible leader? Yes or No?

 

First of all I do believe in the Hidden Imam a.s. Second of all I don't know with who he a.s. is in contact and with who he a.s. is not in contact. 

Third of all, I don't know if those who he a.s. made contact with have the permission to reveal this.

Last of all, why do you want to know it as you're already have your anwsers ready. But ridiculing the matter is not an argument.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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@Skanderbeg,

 

Let me clarify you first that neither I am defending Sunnism nor am I inviting Shia brothers to embrace Sunnism.  So your point of attacking Sunnism to prove it wrong in order to prove Shia'ism right shows the very weakness of your creed.. Proving Sunnism wrong won't make you right. Therefore, please focusing on defending 12er version of Shia religion instead of countering others.

 

The guides and source of knowledge of our scholars were those who were guided by Allah as He is the One who appointed them. The Twelve Imams a.s.

 

Thank you for your clear answer. What's the divine proof of this claim? Simply because your scholars claim to be the followers of your supposed divinely guided Imams made you to believe on them? Christian scholars used to claim the same with respect to considering Jesus (peace be upon him) to be their source of Knowledge, do we accept that?

 

The mere claim of fallible people or your (fallible) consideration for them having been guided by 12 Imams doesn't hold a least of authority unless the claim is confirmed by your Infallible Imam himself. Brother at least first try to prove your religion according to the theory of your own religion which rejects direct reliance on fallible people before countering and attacking others (sects of Islam).

 

 

The right source of guidance should be the fundament of your belief as they are the mediators of knowledge and the living examples of the application of islam in life in its pure form.

 

All of your explanations related to your fallible scholars have no weight for me unless made by an Infallible himself.

 

Who is the best person to tell and make ordinary mankind understand the right source of Guidance? Fallible Scholars, books narrated and compiled by fallible human beings or your present Infallible Imam?

 

 

 

This is not just a matter of personal preference. We should try to find out which chain is the golden chain. The chain of Allah.

 

Who is the best person to judge for us what the golden chain is? We fallible humans or your present Infallible Imam?

 

 

 

The scholars are the house that is built on this fundament. The fundament should be strong and not weak as it is the fundament that makes the house strong. 

On the other hand one can build a beautiful castle but when its foundation is sand or muddy waters the building will collapse and not stand firm. 

That is why one should check its foundation first and later concentrate on the house itself.

 

Are we not inquiring the foundation of our time. That is the present infallible imam?

 

The point is if you had an infallible imam today divinely leading you, I'd not be wasting my time posing these questions to you. Maybe your Imam could by his divine characteristic, taqwa, karamaat or extra ordinary knowledge of Islam convince us to believe that he is our divine leader. It is then after Hujjah of Allah could be declared against us if we were take to the dogma of imamate into consideration.
 
The dogma suggests the presence of infallible guidance till Qiyamah but ironically we still have to choose the fallible source (books written and compiled even after the occultation of your 12th imam by fallible people) to follow the deen of Islam? The practical implement of dogma of Imamate seems failed at least for more than 1000 years! Sorry
Edited by investigating

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The dogma suggests the presence of infallible guidance till Qiyamah but ironically we still have to choose the fallible source (books written and compiled even after the occultation of your 12th imam by fallible people) to follow the deen of Islam? The practical implement of dogma of Imamate seems failed at least for more than 1000 years! Sorry

 

Just a repetition of foolish statements without any understanding of the facts.

 

Already quoted with the following verses that the people like these are kept away from imams who are from Ahl albayat.

 

مَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ

يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe. (6:125)

 

وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَيَجْعَلُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. (10;100)

 

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity, O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification. (33:33)

 

Thus confirming that Al-Rijs / uncleanliness is removed /kept away from the Pure Progeny of the Prophet by Allah swt. Those who are kept away from Ahl albayat include who do not use reason  and those who do not believe in the truth revealed by Allah swt.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Just a repetition of foolish statements without any understanding of the facts.

 

Already quoted with the following verses that the people like these are kept away from imams who are from Ahl albayat.

 

مَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ

يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe. (6:125)

 

وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَيَجْعَلُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah , and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason. (10;100)

 

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا

Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity, O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification. (33:33)

 

Thus confirming that Al-Rijs / uncleanliness is removed /kept away from the Pure Progeny of the Prophet by Allah swt. Those who are kept away from Ahl albayat include who do not use reason  and those who do not believe in the truth revealed by Allah swt.

 

Regards

 

Brother considering your analogy from above verses of Qur'an we've driven to the conclusion that all of those a part from 12er Shia Muslims are "Al-Rijs" (Unclean people) who are kept away from the pure progeny of the Prophet (i.e. 12 individuals), hence, they could not understand/be-guided by the present infallible imam.

 

This (Al-Rijz)  is amazed by such conclusions! :mellow: I don't know what to say more.

 

 

 

 

 

Those (people filled with Al-rijz) who are kept away from Ahl albayat include who do not use reason  and those who do not believe in the truth revealed by Allah swt.

 

All of my conversation is based on a sound reason. The reason that make you different from Mainstream Muslims.

 

  • Is it unreasonable to ask how to follow the guidance of present infallible Imam without any intervention of fallibles.
  • Is it unreasonable to ask who gave authority to elect a leader under the concept of Wilayat-e-Faqih when leadership based on election is considered crime according to Shia religion based on divine concept of Imamate?

     

  • Is it unreasonable to inquire the authenticity of texts most attributed to 5th or 6th by fallible narrators which have not yet confirmed by your present infallible imam?
  • Is it unreasonable to inquire the source of knowledge of 12er version of Islam. Whether it is from their supposed infallible or not?

 

========================================================================

 

If you think these foolish and unreasonable questions by an Al-Rijz Human (who is kept away from Ahlelbayt) have been responded quite well by our Shia brothers than please ask thread's moderator make this thread pinned or sticky so that our Shia members could read those responses and get more firm in their faith!

 

Can you please do that favor for me?

Edited by investigating

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Are we not inquiring the foundation of our time. That is the present infallible imam?

 

The point is if you had an infallible imam today divinely leading you, I'd not be wasting my time posing these questions to you. Maybe your Imam could by his divine characteristic, taqwa, karamaat or extra ordinary knowledge of Islam convince us to believe that he is our divine leader. It is then after Hujjah of Allah could be declared against us if we were take to the dogma of imamate into consideration.
 
The dogma suggests the presence of infallible guidance till Qiyamah but ironically we still have to choose the fallible source (books written and compiled even after the occultation of your 12th imam by fallible people) to follow the deen of Islam? The practical implement of dogma of Imamate seems failed at least for more than 1000 years! Sorry

 

Even though the current Imam a.s. is in occultation we still have the knowledge inherited from the Prophet s.a.w. and the other eleven infallible Imams a.s. 

Your deception is to make us believe that there is fallibility in our system while it is about the infallible source and not about the fallibles who passed the knowledge and do not claim to be representatives or successors of the Prophet s.a.w.

The misconception is that those (all the Sahaba and secondly the Ahl Al-Bayt a.s.) who you consider and believe to be the bridge between the Prophet s.a.w. and your scholars were one big happy family all holding fast on one rope and had no diffirences of opinion or even fueds or wars to the extent that they cursed eachother wishing eachother the worst in dunya and even akhira. 

The narrations of all those people are your second source after the Quran made compatible with eachother under the authority of unjust rulers.

Now, do you want to make me believe that this bridge and secondairy source is reliable?

 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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Even though the current Imam a.s. is in occultation we still have the knowledge inherited from the Prophet s.a.w. and the other eleven infallible Imams a.s. 

 

 

I want a proof of this claim brother? Who are the transmitters of that knowledge? Is the transmission based on the chain of your infallible Imams from Ali (ra) to the son of Hassan Askari (ra)? Yes or No? If the answer is NO, then the theory of following infallible get drowned right away!

 

Your deception is to make us believe that there is fallibility in our system while it is about the infallible source and not about the fallibles who passed the knowledge and do not claim to be representatives or successors of the Prophet s.a.w.

 

Prophet Muhammed (Sallauhu alaihi wasallam) is best infallible source deemed by every rational sect of Islam.

 

It is the chain leading to that resource makes them different from each other.

 

Shia theory of Imamate suggest that in every age there is an infallible imam to lead mankind. If this is the case than we don't even need any chain. What infallible Imam is uttering should be considered the words of Allah and his Rasool (Salallauhu alahi wasallam) and the words of all the previous Imams in chain.

 

 

 

The misconception is that still those (all the Sahaba and secondly the Ahl Al-Bayt a.s.) who you consider to be the bridge between the Prophet s.a.w. and your scholars were one big happy family all holding fast on one rope and had no diffirences of opinion or even fueds or wars to the extent that they cursed eachother wishing eachother the worst in dunya and even akhira. 

The narrations of all those people are your second source after the Quran. Now, do you want to make me believe that this bridge and second source is reliable as it is as contradictory as burning water?

 

I told you before and telling you again:

 

Neither I am defending Sunnism nor am I inviting Shia brothers to embrace Sunnism.  So your point of attacking Sunnism here to prove it wrong in order to prove Shia'ism right shows the very weakness of your creed.. Proving Sunnism wrong won't make you right. Therefore, please focus on defending 12er version of Shia religion instead of countering others.

Edited by investigating

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I want a proof of this claim brother? Who are the transmitters of that knowledge? Is the transmission based on the chain of your infallible Imams from Ali  (ra) to the son of Hassan Askari  (ra)? Yes or No? If the answer is NO, then the theory of following infallible get drowned right away!

 

 

We got their knowledge from their students ofcourse. Who else? We don't have a time-travel machine.

Second, the knowledge of all the Imams a.s. complement eachother. 

 

Shia theory of Imamate suggest that in every age there is an infallible imam to lead mankind. If this is the case than we don't even need any chain. What infallible Imam is uttering should be considered the words of Allah and his Rasool (Salallauhu alahi wasallam) and the words of all the previous Imams in chain.

 

 

 
Didn't had the Prophet s.a.w. students who he s.a.w. sent out to diffirent regions and people?

You talk as if any muslim wether he lived in Abbysinia or the North of As-Sham had the opportunity to talk with and be taught by him s.a.w.  personally 

If that is your point when it comes to the Imams who were in most cases locked or isolated from the masses by the rulers of their time then it's the most silly argument on SC I read till now.

Neither I am defending Sunnism nor am I inviting Shia brothers to embrace Sunnism.  So your point of attacking Sunnism here to prove it wrong in order to prove Shia'ism right shows the very weakness of your creed.. Proving Sunnism wrong won't make you right. Therefore, please focus on defending 12er version of Shia religion instead of countering others.

 

 

Yeah, that old tactic of throwing stones safely from behind a wall. If you're really so noble and brave than you just tell us straight up what your belief is but you hide it. Why? Because of the weakness of your own creed maybe?

Edited by Skanderbeg

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Shia proves the existence of Imam Mahdi (sa) by necessity of the existence of the Representative of Allah on the earth at any time.

In the same way that Imam has the duty of guiding men outwardly, the Imam also bears the function of "Walayah” and the internal guidance of human.

The divinely appointed Imam directs human’s spiritual life and orients the inner aspect of human action toward God. Clearly, his physical presence or absence has no effect in this matter. Imam is the representative of Allah (Khalifatullah) on the earth, and is His vice-regent.

He is the connection between the heavens and the earth, and is appointed by Allah as the intermediate for the rest of creatures. His existence is always necessary even if the time has not as yet arrived for his outward appearance and the universal reconstruction that he is to bring about.

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì wished the inhabitants of the earth not to be able to live without the existence of His representative on the earth, the same way that Allah wished our body not to be able to survive without blood.

But the authority of Imam is not only restricted over a group of people but also covers every other creatures.

Also, according to the verse of the Quran, there is a Guide for each time, as the verse 13:7 testifies, then my question is: Who is this guide today?

بَقِيَّتُ اللَّـهِ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

The above verse is another proof for the fact that there exists one individual at each era who is spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) on the earth to maintain the cause of faith and he is the Imam of that age, and this position was never vacated so long as the earth carries even one human being.

This, in fact, is a doctrine of Shi’a Muslims that a "Proof (Hujjah) of Allah” should always exist on earth for earth to continue its function as a living place for human being.

This implies that Allah never left the human on the earth without His representative. At the time of the prophets, the Hujjah were the prophets. Now that there will be no prophet after Prophet Muhammad, the Hujjah is his living Ahlul-Bayt at each era till the day of resurrection. The necessity of the existence of a Hujjah on the earth follows that this world will end when the last Imam passes away.

Edited by Mirkhalil

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Brother considering your analogy from above verses of Qur'an we've driven to the conclusion that all of those a part from 12er Shia Muslims are "Al-Rijs" (Unclean people) who are kept away from the pure progeny of the Prophet (i.e. 12 individuals), hence, they could not understand/be-guided by the present infallible imam.

 

This (Al-Rijz)  is amazed by such conclusions! :mellow: I don't know what to say more.

 

When the clear verses of Quran makes persons speechless they try to twist its meaning which is not uncommon here.  :D

 

 

  • Is it unreasonable to ask how to follow the guidance of present infallible Imam without any intervention of fallibles.
  • Is it unreasonable to ask who gave authority to elect a leader under the concept of Wilayat-e-Faqih when leadership based on election is considered crime according to Shia religion based on divine concept of Imamate?

     

  • Is it unreasonable to inquire the authenticity of texts most attributed to 5th or 6th by fallible narrators which have not yet confirmed by your present infallible imam?
  • Is it unreasonable to inquire the source of knowledge of 12er version of Islam. Whether it is from their supposed infallible or not?

 

 

1- The guidance function of Imams is not finished in his occultation. the light of Imam is brighter in the heart of believers (post  no. 120.)

 

2.  The answer to the consultation by Ulemam and Fuqaha has been clearly explained in post no. 64 & 66. Just re-quoted here:

 

The response for following fuqaha and ulema is already given in post no. 64, sr no. 3. They are to be consulted for religion in the occultation of 12 imam as per sayings of imams. This certainly corresponds to your own statement given below:

    " It is the Shia theory of Imamate which suggests following the deen through infallible without the intervention of fallible authorities (unless the authority is made clear by the divine Imam himself)".

 

3.  There is no need to re-confirm the sayings of other imams by the 12 th imam. As per hadith in our sources, the hadith of the imams are the sayings of the prophet.

 

4.  The sources of knowledge are from Quran, hadith and the sayings of Imams. The guidance to the hearts of believers is provided by the imam and this function is not discontinued in occultation. (post no. 120)

 

All these repeated statements have been responded many times in this thread yet we get same statements for getting an answer, showing that the answers of truth are not under-stable by those are kept away from Ahl albayat (ie Imams).

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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We got their knowledge from their students ofcourse. Who else? We don't have a time-travel machine.

Second, the knowledge of all the Imams a.s. complement eachother. 

 

 
Didn't had the Prophet s.a.w. students who he s.a.w. sent out to diffirent regions and people?

You talk as if any muslim wether he lived in Abbysinia or the North of As-Sham had the opportunity to talk with and be taught by him s.a.w.  personally 

If that is your point when it comes to the Imams who were in most cases locked or isolated from the masses by the rulers of their time then it's the most silly argument on SC I read till now.

 

May Allah bless you brother with the best of HIS guidance. Please pray the same for me.
 
Brother I am least concerned to scrutinize the fallible students of 5th and 6th Imams unless the infallible Imam of my time confirms their authenticity. To follow 12er version of Islam, I would rather tend to avoid Sunni pattern of Islam which revolves around the concept of Ilm-Rijaal and their standard of Hadith sciences which also includes comparing the prophetic texts from different chains to check how much they complement each other.
 
Why did you need to follow the Sunni pattern of Islam when you have doctrine of Imamate with you? If relying on fallible chain to follow infallible is the criteria than the need of infallible leader to lead mankind as per theory of Shia Imamate gets drowned right away.
 
At the time of Prophet (Salallauhu alaihi wasallam), he was tangibly present around people exhibiting his best of virtues and reciting the holy verses of Qur'an. The students who he sent was under his supervision. There was no need for any kind of compiled book or Hadith when Prophet Muhammad (Sallaauhu alahi wasallam) was alive. He was himself a talking Qur'an and Hadith. The same course of pattern should be applied during the era of next divinely appointed individual after Prophet Sallauhu alaihi wasallam if take Shia theory of Imamate into consideration. The students of first were only supposed to deliver message of Islam under the very supervision of the Imam of their time. 
 
Now you'd argue that our present Imam is occultation by the will of Allah, therefore, now you need to consult the traditions of your previous Imams narrated through their students. Brother again I'd not object you if:
 
There is consensus among Shia scholars that present Imam authenticated any book of Hadith attributed to previous Imams, formulated an election-based leadership system for the current mass of his Shia like that of Wilayaat-e-Faqeeh or/and approved any Tafsir of Qur'an left for utter guidance in his absence.
 
How can I be convinced to embrace 12er version of Islam which is not even inline with its own theory of Imamate?
 
 

 

Yeah, that old tactic of throwing stones safely from behind a wall. If you're really so noble and brave than you just tell us straight up what your belief is but you hide it. Why? Because of the weakness of your own creed maybe?

 

 

Brother if you consider my questions as an attack to your religion than you'd surely feel an urge to counter-attack me back. Please don't consider it an attack but a questions post by an Ignorant to discover the truth of 12er version of Islam.
 
I think I should consider myself as a guest on "SC" particularly posting questions in a thread which has nothing to do with a "Shia/Sunni Debate"... If you think you are good at explaining Sunnis on how wrong they are in their claim to follow Prophet Muhammed (saw) through their version of Sahabah and AhlelBayt than you can join SunniForum to do so. I am really not interested to defend Sunnism here. (I am sorry)

 

When the clear verses of Quran makes persons speechless they try to twist its meaning which is not uncommon here.  :D

 

 

 

 

1- The guidance function of Imams is not finished in his occultation. the light of Imam is brighter in the heart of believers (post  no. 120.) --> No Guidance for disbelievers?

 

2.  The answer to the consultation by Ulemam and Fuqaha has been clearly explained in post no. 64 & 66. Just re-quoted here:

 

The response for following fuqaha and ulema is already given in post no. 64, sr no. 3. They are to be consulted for religion in the occultation of 12 imam as per sayings of imams. This certainly corresponds to your own statement given below:

    " It is the Shia theory of Imamate which suggests following the deen through infallible without the intervention of fallible authorities (unless the authority is made clear by the divine Imam himself)".  --> Which present scholars have been authorized by your Imams to guide you in their absence? Please give some texual proofs .. I am still waiting for Shia textual proofs that lets your scholar to choose leaders through election.

 

3.  There is no need to re-confirm the sayings of other imams by the 12 th imam. As per hadith in our sources, the hadith of the imams are the sayings of the prophet. --> We don't need re-confirmation of the saying of your Imams but the confirmation of the credibility of those fallible humans who narrated them.

 

4.  The sources of knowledge are from Quran, hadith and the sayings of Imams. The guidance to the hearts of believers is provided by the imam and this function is not discontinued in occultation. (post no. 120) ... Please read above responses

 

All these repeated statements have been responded many times in this thread yet we get same statements for getting an answer, showing that the answers of truth are not under-stable by those are kept away from Ahl albayat (ie Imams). --> I could not find the answers I am sorry.

 

Regards

 

Brother I am apologetic to say that your repeated responses don't answer any of my questions. These have been responded before as well. You can read my response to brother @Skandarbeg. It covers the reply of almost all of your responses made above. May Allah bless you with the best of HIS guidance. (Pray the same for me please).

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Brother I believe you're sincere.

Your question however is not easy to understand, (I can't find the coremeaning/point of it) so I'll try to anwser you according to the best of my abillity and the knowledge I have in time.

 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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May Allah bless you brother with the best of HIS guidance. Please pray the same for me.
 
Brother I am least concerned to scrutinize the fallible students of 5th and 6th Imams unless the infallible Imam of my time confirms their authenticity. To follow 12er version of Islam, I would rather tend to avoid Sunni pattern of Islam which revolves around the concept of Ilm-Rijaal and their standard of Hadith sciences which also includes comparing the prophetic texts from different chains to check how much they complement each other.
 
Why did you need to follow the Sunni pattern of Islam when you have doctrine of Imamate with you? If relying on fallible chain to follow infallible is the criteria than the need of infallible leader to lead mankind as per theory of Shia Imamate gets drowned right away.
 
At the time of Prophet (Salallauhu alaihi wasallam), he was tangibly present around people exhibiting his best of virtues and reciting the holy verses of Qur'an. The students who he sent was under his supervision. There was no need for any kind of compiled book or Hadith when Prophet Muhammad (Sallaauhu alahi wasallam) was alive. He was himself a talking Qur'an and Hadith. The same course of pattern should be applied during the era of next divinely appointed individual after Prophet Sallauhu alaihi wasallam if take Shia theory of Imamate into consideration. The students of first were only supposed to deliver message of Islam under the very supervision of the Imam of their time. 
 
Now you'd argue that our present Imam is occultation by the will of Allah, therefore, now you need to consult the traditions of your previous Imams narrated through their students. Brother again I'd not object you if:
 
There is consensus among Shia scholars that present Imam authenticated any book of Hadith attributed to previous Imams, formulated an election-based leadership system for the current mass of his Shia like that of Wilayaat-e-Faqeeh or/and approved any Tafsir of Qur'an left for utter guidance in his absence.
 
How can I be convinced to embrace 12er version of Islam which is not even inline with its own theory of Imamate?
 
 

 

Brother if you consider my questions as an attack to your religion than you'd surely feel an urge to counter-attack me back. Please don't consider it an attack but a questions post by an Ignorant to discover the truth of 12er version of Islam.
 
I think I should consider myself as a guest on "SC" particularly posting questions in a thread which has nothing to do with a "Shia/Sunni Debate"... If you think you are good at explaining Sunnis on how wrong they are in their claim to follow Prophet Muhammed (saw) through their version of Sahabah and AhlelBayt than you can join SunniForum to do so. I am really not interested to defend Sunnism here. (I am sorry)

 

 

Brother I am apologetic to say that your repeated responses don't answer any of my questions. These have been responded before as well. You can read my response to brother @Skandarbeg. It covers the reply of almost all of your responses made above. May Allah bless you with the best of HIS guidance. (Pray the same for me please).

 

The problem I have with your question is that as you are not a Shia muslim, in the sect you follow now (whatever that may be) you don't demand confirmation from Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. as while from Shia muslims you demand confirmation (physical and alive as I am now talking to you here on SC) from the Twelfth Imam a.s. 

How can you be a muslim at all if what you ask isn't possible in both (current sunni and shia) circumstances?

You see, It's really a kinda weird question in my perception. Correct me if I'm wrong but I need to know this to answer/help you.

 

Edited by Skanderbeg

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May Allah bless you with best of HIS guidance. I really admire the kindness you have put in your response later. I am sorry to respond you late. I am too busy with my affairs to concentrate on this.

 

The problem I have with your question is that as you are not a Shia muslim, in the sect you follow now (whatever that may be) you don't demand confirmation from Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. as while from Shia muslims you demand confirmation (physical and alive as I am now talking to you here on SC) from the Twelfth Imam a.s.

 

Brother you are comparing the guidance function of Prophethood with Shia theory of Imamate. No sect believes that Prophet Muhammed (Salallauhi alaihi wasallam) has to be alive till the Day of Judgment with his divine leadership till Qiyamah. I think your question needs some illustrative clarification. First of let’s recall what I am demanding (listing the points in priority):

 

i)   The first and best priority is to have a present tangible divine leadership guiding and judging on matters Ummah differs. The way a sane person despite of his differences could not deny the exhibited leadership of Khomeini or Khamnai (even if that person never meet them personally) today in Iran, the same way we could not have denied the supposed leadership of present Imam if such leadership exists today.

 

(OR)

 

ii)  If for the sake of conciliating the absence of present Imam we accept that he is in occultation by the will of Allah than it’d be reasonable to check if Shia scholars take their religion from the sources of those representatives of Imam who claimed to be in direct contact with him during lesser occultation. There is no consensus among Shia scholars to back such claim.

 

(OR)

 

iii)  If even this never happened than I being a Shia (If I were) would check the source of infallibility of the source of knowledge attributed to the Imams of previous times. Here Shia scholars adopted the Sunni pattern of Islam based on Ilm-Rijal which simply implies:

Analysis of opinions of fallible persons to analyze the authenticity and credibility of fallible persons collected in a book compiled by fallible human! (Which doesn’t make sense if Shia Muslims are under the divine leadership of Imamate).

 

Last but not least, if there were clear verses of Qur’an (which we both deem the primary source of Guidance) talking about 12 Imams with their identity and the criteria of salvation to believe and follow them with closer to the same weight as the Qur’an holds for Prophet and Prophethood, I’d blindly follow the 12er version of Islam considering that whatever course of knowledge existed today in relation to it must be by the will of Allah.

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May ALLAAH bless you for your reply again. None of your presented verse of Qur'an has anything to do with the guidance function of your 12th Imam. 

 

It is not explicit enough for Sunni Muslims, Zaidiyahs, Ismailis or Bohras to embrace 12er Shia version of Islam. The explicit proof would be either:

 

i) The theory of Imamate as Shia holds with respect to 12 Imams and course of guidance to be adopted in the occulation of last Imam should be present in Qur'an unequivocally.

 

OR

 

ii) There must be 12th Imam present to lead mankind globally just like Imam Khomeini of Iran was present to lead Iranian nation physically and tangibly. (No one of us despite of the differences even object his leadership even though most of us never met him personally).

 

Regards

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No one wants you to accept the faith about Imam Al Mahdi.( It is only with Allah permission that the person can  believe in the truth. it is nto even  the authority of the prophet saww).

 

Indeed, mankind is in loss,Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. (103:2, 3)

.

The verses of quran mentions that the believers should believe first to get the guidance  before their actions are acceptable but you want to drive the wheel in opposite direction, thats why you are found moving in circles just to increase the number of posts on your credit in the forum. The same has already been detailed for you in many posts given in this thread..

 

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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The verses of quran mentions that the believers should believe first to get the guidance  before their actions are acceptable 

 

What I am commanded to believe? (Lets find out the answer from Qur'an):

 

Quran (Surah Nisa: 136)

 

O you who believe! 

 
Believe in Allâh,  
His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), 
the Book (the Qur'ân) which He has sent down to His Messenger
the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), 
 
and whosoever disbelieves in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

 

These are the only basis of beliefs mentioned in Qur'an which seems lesser in status than Imamate except believing in Allah. No where does the Qur'an order us to believe in 12th Imam who'd go in occultation for more than 1200 years.

 

And please read Surah Al-Mominoon (Chapter # 23) which gives us the characteristic to adopt in order to be a True Momin. I could not find a single characteristic which demands us to believe in Imamate of 12 Imams as hold by 12er Shia Muslims.

 

 

but you want to drive the wheel in opposite direction, thats why you are found moving in circles just to increase the number of posts on your credit in the forum. The same has already been detailed for you in many posts given in this thread..

 

Brother I am repeating the direction of guidance which I tend to adopt:

 

i) Either Qur'an gives the explicit proof (which is common source) of the concept of 12th Imam in occultation as hold by 12er Shia Muslim.

 

OR

 

ii) 12er Shia Muslims could claim that the source of their knowledge is taken from no one but from their present 12th Imam.

 

OR

 

iii) Or could claim that there is no intervention of fallible people from the knowledge taken from previous infallible Imams and THAT KNOWLEDGE could prove the authorities of current Shia Marjas and the election-based leadership system of Wilayat-e-Faqih

 

OR 

 

iv) At least, they could claim that their source of knowledge has been taken even from the representatives of present Imam during his lesser occultation. Then we'd scrutinize the status of that knowledge from Qur'an.

 

If you can't fulfill any of above claims than the 12er Shia Dogma of Imamate will be proved UNAPPLICABLE and choosing a sect based on UNAPPLICABLE & BASELESS DOGMA is nothing more than a sheer misguidance! (Sorry)

 

Regards

Edited by investigating

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May ALLAAH bless you for your reply again. None of your presented verse of Qur'an has anything to do with the guidance function of your 12th Imam. 

 

It is not explicit enough for Sunni Muslims, Zaidiyahs, Ismailis or Bohras to embrace 12er Shia version of Islam. The explicit proof would be either:

 

i) The theory of Imamate as Shia holds with respect to 12 Imams and course of guidance to be adopted in the occulation of last Imam should be present in Qur'an unequivocally.

 

OR

 

ii) There must be 12th Imam present to lead mankind globally just like Imam Khomeini of Iran was present to lead Iranian nation physically and tangibly. (No one of us despite of the differences even object his leadership even though most of us never met him personally).

 

Regards

But brother, 

You don't believe in just Allah, Muhammad s.a.w. and the Quran but you believe in the interpretation of islam through the Ahlus Sunna Wal jamaa.

Which was established by people who founded it on their own authority and thereby downplayed and tried to eradicate anything and all that opposed their view. 

Just as you need an example from the Quran for Imamate for us it is nothing but the Quran which tells us all the time that Allah is the only authority and that His appointees are the only ones fit and able to rule in a just and right way and to guide mankind so to be blessed and be prosperous.

The strange thing in Sunni Islam if you'd ask me is that while the Quran stresses involvement of Allah continually and that only the intervention of Allah creates just and righteous civilisations and people, Sunnism preaches the exact opposite. At one hand it claims to follow Allah, Muhammad s.a.w. and the Quran while on the other hand it admits that it caliphate was a straight up mess with tyrants and dictators which could equal the Tudors in drama and tragedy.

This is a contradiction which leads me naturally to Shia Islam as the only possible option.

Edited by Skanderbeg

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If you can't fulfill any of above claims than the 12er Shia Dogma of Imamate will be proved UNAPPLICABLE and choosing a sect based on UNAPPLICABLE & BASELESS DOGMA is nothing more than a sheer misguidance! (Sorry)

 

Regards

 

 

1- The religion is based on the quran and the hadith of the prophet. just quran is not sufficient alone until it is taken along with the traditions of the prophet and Imams from ahl albayat.

 

2- For us this is sufficient  in the light of quran and hadith that we are the followers of the Religion of Ibrahim. yes others may agree or disagree on the basis of the permission granted by Allah swt for them to believe or not.

 

The link can be seen for information.

 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031965-quran-for-religion-of-ibrahim/?p=2829543

 

3. All the assumptions (in post no. 138) have nothing to do with the established and proven criteria based on the quran, the traditions of the prophet and sayings of Imams from Ahl albayat, These are just mere qiyas.

 

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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