Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Arabismo

What Evidence Do The Shia Have For The Existence..

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

As-Salamu alaykum

Even before I converted to Islam I had immense respect for Islam and muslims, Allah and His Book, the Quran. 

Now I look back and I am so thankful for that because I believe that it was the first step to salvation. 

Never exclude things beforehand. 

Edited by Iskandarovich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As-Salamu alaykum

Even before I converted to Islam I had immense respect for Islam and muslims, Allah and His Book, the Quran. 

Now I look back and I am so thankful for that because I believe that it was the first step to salvation.

Thats a cool story and all but not really relevant to what i am asking for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just a story. It's an eye-opener that can give each of us many anwsers. Objectivity is the key. I didn't ask myself why Islam is the truth but why it could not be the truth and then logic starts to work. It's a kind of attitude.

I hope Allah will give you the right anwser.  


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just a story. It's an eye-opener that can give each of us many anwsers. Objectivity is the key. I didn't ask myself why Islam is the truth but why it could not be the truth and then logic starts to work. It's a kind of attitude.

I hope Allah will give you the right anwser.

Thank you my eye opening friend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam,

 

Evidence include:

The prophet Muhammad صل الله علیه و آله و سلم and our Imams علیهم السلام have said that he atfs will have a long occultation (= long life). We have been promised 12 Imams but he (the 12th Imam) atfs hasn’t yet come.

 

An important evidence for the long life of our Imam atfs is the long life of the prophet Noah PBUH (As mentioned in Qur'an, he PBUH was a prophet for 950 years, and we don't know how many years he had been living among his Ummah before becoming a prophet). All Muslims agree about this.

 

Another evidence: The fact that Jesus Christ PBUH is still alive and will return (he PBUH is still alive for more than 2000 years). This is also believed by our Sunni brothers.

 

Also several people with long lives (1000s of years) have been mentioned by name in Bible and Torah.

 

Additionally, according to history, there have been many people with long lives (from 100s to 1000s of years).

 

There is another important evidence in Qur’an (Al-Saffat, 143-144) which says a human can potentially live until Qiyammah (Day of Resurrection) if Allah swt wants.

 

And had he (= Younus PBUH) not been of those who glorify God, he would have surely tarried in its belly (= belly of the whale that swallowed Younus PBUH) till the Day of Resurrection.

فلو لا انه کان من المسبحین، للبث فی بطنه الی یوم یبعثون (صافات 143 و 144)

 

So if God wants, a human can live till the Day of Resurrection.

 

Point: these evidence are not all of the evidence for his existence, but I think they should be enough for those seeking the truth.

 

Your brother,

Right-seeker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam,

 

Evidence include:

The prophet Muhammad صل الله علیه و آله و سلم and our Imams علیهم السلام have said that he atfs will have a long occultation (= long life). We have been promised 12 Imams but he (the 12th Imam) atfs hasn’t yet come.

 

Please bring this hadith from the Prophet Muhammad. that he said the Mahdi would  have a long occultation .

 

 

 

An important evidence for the long life of our Imam atfs is the long life of the prophet Noah PBUH (As mentioned in Qur'an, he PBUH was a prophet for 950 years, and we don't know how many years he had been living among his Ummah before becoming a prophet). All Muslims agree about this.

 

I could say that Henry Olsen has been hiding in a cave for 2000 years and he is alive and the evidence is the long life of Noah. This is no evidence there exists a man today of that age even for argument sake let say its plausible for someone to live that long today.

 

So sadly you brought me no evidence for the existence of your Mahdi.

 

 

 

Please bring the evidence here rather than refering me to books or links.

 

 

the fact that you can ask such a question proves his existence, the mercy of :Allah swt.

How exactly does my question prove his existence?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

 

Dear brother, 

 

I took these from another site and other pages of shiachat and I couldn't find the first hadith from the english version of Muslim, so I think these are the from the arabic sources. 

Anyone that thinks the references are not right, please correct them.

 

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that, "whoever dies without knowing the imam of his time, dies the death of ignorance(meaning kufr). 

(Muslim 3:239, Hadith 1851).

 

In the book of Mudstadrak al hakim, there is the hadith of thaqalayn where Rasuallah (pbuh) says that "I leave behind two weighty things, the Quran and Ahlul bayt", then the prophet  (pbuh) continues and says that "they(meaning the Quran and Ahlul bayt (as)) will never be separated until they come back to me at the pool of Kauthar". (Mostadrak al-Hakim 3:10)

 

From the above hadith, we can say that if Imam Mahdi (as) is not alive today, then there is a separation between the Quran and one of the members of Ahlul bayt (as), while the messenger of Allah, says that they will never be. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

 

Dear brother, 

 

I took these from another site and other pages of shiachat and I couldn't find the first hadith from the english version of Muslim, so I think these are the from the arabic sources. 

Anyone that thinks the references are not right, please correct them.

 

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that, "whoever dies without knowing the imam of his time, dies the death of ignorance(meaning kufr). 

(Muslim 3:239, Hadith 1851).

 

In the book of Mudstadrak al hakim, there is the hadith of thaqalayn where Rasuallah (pbuh) says that "I leave behind two weighty things, the Quran and Ahlul bayt", then the prophet  (pbuh) continues and says that "they(meaning the Quran and Ahlul bayt (as)) will never be separated until they come back to me at the pool of Kauthar". (Mostadrak al-Hakim 3:10)

 

From the above hadith, we can say that if Imam Mahdi (as) is not alive today, then there is a separation between the Quran and one of the members of Ahlul bayt (as), while the messenger of Allah, says that they will never be. 

 

(salam)

 

Dear brother, 

 

I took these from another site and other pages of shiachat and I couldn't find the first hadith from the english version of Muslim, so I think these are the from the arabic sources. 

Anyone that thinks the references are not right, please correct them.

 

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that, "whoever dies without knowing the imam of his time, dies the death of ignorance(meaning kufr). 

(Muslim 3:239, Hadith 1851).

 

In the book of Mudstadrak al hakim, there is the hadith of thaqalayn where Rasuallah (pbuh) says that "g". (Mostadrak al-Hakim 3:10)

 

From the above hadith, we can say that if Imam Mahdi (as) is not alive today, then there is a separation between the Quran and one of the members of Ahlul bayt (as), while the messenger of Allah, says that they will never be. 

What do these ahadith have to do with the existence of your mahdi?

 

The first hadith does not imply there is an Imam at all times and there are ahadith where the prophet point out times where there are no leaders. 

 

As for the second hadith lets for argument sake say its sahih. Never separted does not mean in anyway that there will always be a leader on earth from Ahlu Bayt this is a extreme interpretation loaded with all kinds of bias. They will never be separated could refer to their teachings which a much more ratinal interpretation containing less presuppositions. Either way i asked for evidence for the current existence of the Mahdi and so far no shi3i has really brought any evidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do these ahadith have to do with the existence of your mahdi?

 

The first hadith does not imply there is an Imam at all times and there are ahadith where the prophet point out times where there are no leaders. 

 

As for the second hadith lets for argument sake say its sahih. Never separted does not mean in anyway that there will always be a leader on earth from Ahlu Bayt this is a extreme interpretation loaded with all kinds of bias. They will never be separated could refer to their teachings which a much more ratinal interpretation containing less presuppositions. Either way i asked for evidence for the current existence of the Mahdi and so far no shi3i has really brought any evidence.

Inshallah other knowledgable brothers will bring more evidence.

 

The first hadith 100% relates to the existence of the imam in occultation. 

 

Who is the imam of your time, then?

 

The hadith clearly says that whoever doesnt know the imam of their time and dies, will die a death of ignorance. 

Neither does it say in the first hadith that there will not be leaders/imams/khalifa in some times. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Inshallah other knowledgable brothers will bring more evidence.

 

The first hadith 100% relates to the existence of the imam in occultation. 

 

Who is the imam of your time, then?

 

The hadith clearly says that whoever doesnt know the imam of their time and dies, will die a death of ignorance. 

Neither does it say in the first hadith that there will not be leaders/imams/khalifa in some times. 

When it comes to ahadith, you dont look at one and only one ahadith. You try to understand a hadith without another hadith.

 

When the Prophet was asked about what would happen when there were no Imams he didnt say there will never be such a time he replied

 

Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman:

The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state  Sahih BukhariVolume 9, Book 88 Hadith nr 206 http://i-cias.com/textarchive/bukhari/088.htm

 

Likewise the first hadith you posted is conditional to when there is an Imam on earth. The hadith does not say there will always at all times be an imam. So please dont cherry pick ahadith that suits you the best from our book and 

 

So the first hadith has nothing to do with your Mahdi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When it comes to ahadith, you dont look at one and only one ahadith. You try to understand a hadith without another hadith.

 

When the Prophet was asked about what would happen when there were no Imams he didnt say there will never be such a time he replied

 

Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman:

The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state  Sahih BukhariVolume 9, Book 88 Hadith nr 206 http://i-cias.com/textarchive/bukhari/088.htm

 

Likewise the first hadith you posted is conditional to when there is an Imam on earth. The hadith does not say there will always at all times be an imam. So please dont cherry pick ahadith that suits you the best from our book and 

 

So the first hadith has nothing to do with your Mahdi

 

 

Firstly, I have to clarify that what matters for Shias is Shia sources. We believe Shia is on the right path and is the true Islam. When you accept Shia islam, you will accept 12 Imams who are the Ahlul Bait of the prophet صل الله علیه و آله وسلم. According to Qur'an, Ahlul Bait are free from any uncleanness, so they will not say/do anything against or non-compatible with Islam. Ahlul Bait have told us in numerous hadiths that the 12th Imam will have a long occultation. Ahlul Bait have also quoted hadiths from Muhammad صل الله علیه و آله و سلم in which he (PBU him and his Ahlul Bait), has promised a long occultation for the 12th Imam atfs. But because you don't believe in our sources, it makes no sense to me to bring reference for you from our sources. But these ahadeeth are enough for us Shias to believe in his existence, occultation and his return.

 

Shia also don't believe in those hadiths narrated in Sunni sources but not in Shia sources, so please don't expect us to accept this hadith from Sahih Bukhari which is not a reference for us.

 

The best way to communicate is to bring those hadiths narrated in both Sunni and Shia sources and/or to bring evidence from Quran. The hadith which says that whoever doesn't know the imam of their time and dies, will die a death of ignorance, has been narrated by Sunni and Shia and is considered by both to be Sahih. This hadith clearly says that there must be an Imam in any time. And we Shias believe, based on our authentic sources, that the Imam of our time is Mahdi atfs who is among Ahlul Bait and from Quraysh. This is enough for us.

 

Now who's your Imam? Is your Imam among Quraysh as Shia and Sunni hadiths say? Is he among Ahlul Bait? If not, when is your Imam expected to be born? How can you realize that he has been born? When is he supposed to come?

 

To summarize, we believe in our Imams a.s as much as we believe in our prophet صل الله علیه و آله وسلم. They have promised the 12th Imam and he will return soon Insha Allah.

Edited by Right-seeker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a pointless question, not designed to get answers.

 

The Shia's faith in the twelve Imams rest on the existence of the eleven preceding Imams, which rests on that that first Imam and Khalifah of Rasulullah s.a.w.s. was Ameer al Momineen Ali bin Abi Talib a.s.

 

Once you realize the fact that Imam Ali a.s. was the first khalifah and imam for the ummah, and follow the chain of succession after him, you will end up with the conclusion of the existence of the 12th Imam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly, I have to clarify that what matters for Shias is Shia sources. We believe Shia is on the right path and is the true Islam. When you accept Shia islam, you will accept 12 Imams who are the Ahlul Bait of the prophet صل الله علیه و آله وسلم. According to Qur'an, Ahlul Bait are free from any uncleanness, so they will not say/do anything against or non-compatible with Islam. Ahlul Bait have told us in numerous hadiths that the 12th Imam will have a long occultation. Ahlul Bait have also quoted hadiths from Muhammad صل الله علیه و آله و سلم in which he (PBU him and his Ahlul Bait), has promised a long occultation for the 12th Imam atfs. But because you don't believe in our sources, it makes no sense to me to bring reference for you from our sources. But these ahadeeth are enough for us Shias to believe in his existence, occultation and his return.

 

Shia also don't believe in those hadiths narrated in Sunni sources but not in Shia sources, so please don't expect us to accept this hadith from Sahih Bukhari which is not a reference for us.

 

The best way to communicate is to bring those hadiths narrated in both Sunni and Shia sources and/or to bring evidence from Quran. The hadith which says that whoever doesn't know the imam of their time and dies, will die a death of ignorance, has been narrated by Sunni and Shia and is considered by both to be Sahih. This hadith clearly says that there must be an Imam in any time. And we Shias believe, based on our authentic sources, that the Imam of our time is Mahdi atfs who is among Ahlul Bait and from Quraysh. This is enough for us.

 

Now who's your Imam? Is your Imam among Quraysh as Shia and Sunni hadiths say? Is he among Ahlul Bait? If not, when is your Imam expected to be born? How can you realize that he has been born? When is he supposed to come?

 

To summarize, we believe in our Imams a.s as much as we believe in our prophet صل الله علیه و آله وسلم. They have promised the 12th Imam and he will return soon Insha Allah.

Several presuppositions

1. You presuppose 33:33 refers to those you call ahlu bayt.

2. You presuppose 33:33 means causing to be absolute sinless.

3. You presuppose that the meaning of the hadith about Imam and Jahiliyya is that there will always be an imam present.

As your friend above brought the exact same hadith i explain to him

When it comes to ahadith, you dont look at one and only one ahadith. You try to understand a hadith without another hadith.

 

When the Prophet was asked about what would happen when there were no Imams he didnt say there will never be such a time he replied

 

Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman:

The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state  Sahih BukhariVolume 9, Book 88 Hadith nr 206 http://i-cias.com/textarchive/bukhari/088.htm

 

Likewise the first hadith you posted is conditional to when there is an Imam on earth. The hadith does not say there will always at all times be an imam. So please dont cherry pick ahadith that suits you the best from our book and 

 

So the first hadith has nothing to do with your Mahdi

Now it seems what you are saying is that the only reason you believe in the existence of the 1000+year old Mahdi is because you have some narrations that mention there are 12 imams. Other than this you have nothing. Now on these narrations i have to ask

1. How do you know they are sahih

2. Can you mention to me any book that can be reliably dated to a date predating the death of Hasan al Askari

This is a pointless question, not designed to get answers.

 

The Shia's faith in the twelve Imams rest on the existence of the eleven preceding Imams, which rests on that that first Imam and Khalifah of Rasulullah s.a.w.s. was Ameer al Momineen Ali bin Abi Talib a.s.

 

Once you realize the fact that Imam Ali a.s. was the first khalifah and imam for the ummah, and follow the chain of succession after him, you will end up with the conclusion of the existence of the 12th Imam

No the shia sects are in the 10s and 10s all accepting Ali as the first. Some rejected Baqir others rejected Sadiq others said it stoped with Musa some followed Ismail.

So what you said does not even remotely touch on what i am asking for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we safely say that some leaders such as the revered an honourable Ayatullah Imam Khomeni and the current leader Ayatullah Imam Khamenei are both Seyyids from the lineage of the Ahlul Bayt, from which line of decent would either of these two great men of our time come from as we know Imam Mahdi az zaman is in occultation mode at the moment so he being the only male child at that time in the house of Imam Hassan Al Askari (a.s) and he then vanished as claimed without a wife or children, so is their a possibilty that Imam Hassan Al Askari (a.s) had a brother who was not one of the claimed 12/13 in line of Imamate, could these great leaders with titles of Seyyeds be the benefactors of his brother Imam Jafar (a.s)in terms of decendancy and could this lineage be existing from the only true lineage adopted by the marriage of Imam Ali (a.s) and the beloved daughter of our Prophet Bibi Fatima Az Zahra (s.a).

So in order of a complete circle of life to unfold the blessings of Ahlul Bayt would have also vanished with al Qaim, if these leaders claim they are from Alhul Bayt then why look further than your nose for the Imam of our time, can not the Imam be given to those who call themselves Seyyed e gharana e Mustafa e Muhammed (saw)e Fatima az Zahra e Imam Ali Murtaza mushkil khusha......And so on

The Mahdi of the Shiat is the reflection of absolute mythology based on a supernatural figure like Superman rather than one which is realistic and likened to the compatibility of Asadullah Imam Ali (a.s).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

No the shia sects are in the 10s and 10s all accepting Ali as the first. Some rejected Baqir others rejected Sadiq others said it stoped with Musa some followed Ismail.

So what you said does not even remotely touch on what i am asking for.

 

It completely answers your question.

I have chosen to follow a line of khulafa and aimmah which start from Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. to Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. based on proofs that I rely on and trust. I don't care what others believe, as I believe them to be astray, whether they strayed from the very beginning like those who we call Ahlus-Sunnah, or later on, like Zaidis and Ismailis.

Teachings from this chain of leadership tells us in very clear terms and by way of countless riwayat, and consensus, such that I have no doubt, that there is the twelth Imam born to Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. thus proving his existence and that he is the Imam of the current time. That proves it for me.

 

Sheikh Sudduq a.s. put it very well:

كل من سألنا من المخالفين عن القائم (عليه السلام)، لم يخل من ان يكون قائلاً بامامة الائمة الاحد عشر من آبائه (عليهم السلام) او غير قائل بامامتهم.

فان كان قائلا بامامتهم لزمه القول بامامة الامام الثاني عشر لنصوص آبائه الائمة (عليهم السلام) عليه باسمه ونسبه واجماع شيعتهم على القول بامامته وانه القائم الذي يظهر بعد غيبة طويلة فيملأ الارض قسطاً وعدلا كما ملئت جوراً وظلماً

وإن لم يكن السائل من القائلين بالأئمة الأحد عشر (عليه السلام) لم يكن له علينا جواب في القائم الثاني عشر من الأئمة (عليهم السلام) وكان الكلام بيننا وبينه في إثبات إمامة آبائه الأئمة الأحد عشر ع

Those who question us amongst the opponents (i.e. the Sunnis) about the al-Imam al-Qaaim a.s., then there are two possibilities: either one believes in the eleven preceding Imams from his ancestry, or he does not believe in their imamah.

If he believes in their Imamah, then it is necessary to believe in the twelth Imam due to the nusoos (specificiation) of the eleven Imams upon him, by his name and his lineage and the consensus of their Shias in believing him to be the Imam, and that he is the al-Qaaim who is prophecised to appear after a long occultation and then fill the earth with justice whereas it was filled with oppression and injustice.

If he does not believe in Imamah of the eleven Imams a.s. then we are not obliged to answer him about the 12th Imam a.s., and the discussion between us and him will be about proving the Imamah of the 11 preceding Imams a.s.

 

Then Sheikh Sudduq continues to explain this through an example: if a Jewish person asks us why the Zuhr Asr and Isha prayers are 4 rak'at and Maghrib is 3 rak'ah and Fajr is 2 rak'ah, then we are not obliged to answer this question, but we say to him: you deny the nabuwwah of the Prophet s.a.w.s. who taught us these prayers and their numbers of rak'aat, and our discussion should be on proving and establishing nabuwwah of the Holy Prophet s.a.w.s. So if it is then proven that he was indeed a messenger from God and brought a new final shariah, then it will be necessary on the Jew to accept his teachings on the prayers and everything else.

The same thing applies here to the question of establishing the Imam of the 12th Imam and his existence - if you become satisfied that Imam Ali a.s. was the first Imam, and then that Imam Hasan a.s. was the second Imam, and then that Imam Husain a.s. was the third Imam...  and so on, until the eleventh Imam, then you will have to accept the teachings of all these 11 imams which includes the foretelling of the twelth Imam, the al-Qaaim a.s., who is the son of Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s.

 

In other words, the doctrine of the Twelth Imam amongs the Shias is not an independently acquired belief, but is based and founded on the belief on other elements, i.e. the 11 preceding Imams and the Prophet s.a.w.s., so a question cannot be posed about it unless the foundations of it are at least accepted by all parties concerned in the discussion.

 

Hence, the question is a silly and illogical one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It completely answers your question.

I have chosen to follow a line of khulafa and aimmah which start from Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. to Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. based on proofs that I rely on and trust. I don't care what others believe, as I believe them to be astray, whether they strayed from the very beginning like those who we call Ahlus-Sunnah, or later on, like Zaidis and Ismailis.

Teachings from this chain of leadership tells us in very clear terms and by way of countless riwayat, and consensus, such that I have no doubt, that there is the twelth Imam born to Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. thus proving his existence and that he is the Imam of the current time. That proves it for me.

Sheikh Sudduq a.s. put it very well:

كل من سألنا من المخالفين عن القائم (عليه السلام)، لم يخل من ان يكون قائلاً بامامة الائمة الاحد عشر من آبائه (عليهم السلام) او غير قائل بامامتهم.

فان كان قائلا بامامتهم لزمه القول بامامة الامام الثاني عشر لنصوص آبائه الائمة (عليهم السلام) عليه باسمه ونسبه واجماع شيعتهم على القول بامامته وانه القائم الذي يظهر بعد غيبة طويلة فيملأ الارض قسطاً وعدلا كما ملئت جوراً وظلماً

وإن لم يكن السائل من القائلين بالأئمة الأحد عشر (عليه السلام) لم يكن له علينا جواب في القائم الثاني عشر من الأئمة (عليهم السلام) وكان الكلام بيننا وبينه في إثبات إمامة آبائه الأئمة الأحد عشر ع

Those who question us amongst the opponents (i.e. the Sunnis) about the al-Imam al-Qaaim a.s., then there are two possibilities: either one believes in the eleven preceding Imams from his ancestry, or he does not believe in their imamah.

If he believes in their Imamah, then it is necessary to believe in the twelth Imam due to the nusoos (specificiation) of the eleven Imams upon him, by his name and his lineage and the consensus of their Shias in believing him to be the Imam, and that he is the al-Qaaim who is prophecised to appear after a long occultation and then fill the earth with justice whereas it was filled with oppression and injustice.

If he does not believe in Imamah of the eleven Imams a.s. then we are not obliged to answer him about the 12th Imam a.s., and the discussion between us and him will be about proving the Imamah of the 11 preceding Imams a.s.

Then Sheikh Sudduq continues to explain this through an example: if a Jewish person asks us why the Zuhr Asr and Isha prayers are 4 rak'at and Maghrib is 3 rak'ah and Fajr is 2 rak'ah, then we are not obliged to answer this question, but we say to him: you deny the nabuwwah of the Prophet s.a.w.s. who taught us these prayers and their numbers of rak'aat, and our discussion should be on proving and establishing nabuwwah of the Holy Prophet s.a.w.s. So if it is then proven that he was indeed a messenger from God and brought a new final shariah, then it will be necessary on the Jew to accept his teachings on the prayers and everything else.

The same thing applies here to the question of establishing the Imam of the 12th Imam and his existence - if you become satisfied that Imam Ali a.s. was the first Imam, and then that Imam Hasan a.s. was the second Imam, and then that Imam Husain a.s. was the third Imam... and so on, until the eleventh Imam, then you will have to accept the teachings of all these 11 imams which includes the foretelling of the twelth Imam, the al-Qaaim a.s., who is the son of Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s.

In other words, the doctrine of the Twelth Imam amongs the Shias is not an independently acquired belief, but is based and founded on the belief on other elements, i.e. the 11 preceding Imams and the Prophet s.a.w.s., so a question cannot be posed about it unless the foundations of it are at least accepted by all parties concerned in the discussion.

Hence, the question is a silly and illogical one.

Thanks, great points. I agree totally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several presuppositions

1. You presuppose 33:33 refers to those you call ahlu bayt.

2. You presuppose 33:33 means causing to be absolute sinless.

3. You presuppose that the meaning of the hadith about Imam and Jahiliyya is that there will always be an imam present.

These presuppositions are facts to Shias (based on proper reasoning). If you want, you can open a new thread about this for me and my brothers and sisters to explain to you why.

As your friend above brought the exact same hadith i explain to him

Your explanation was from Sahih Bukhari which has no place in our minds and is not a reference for us.

Now it seems what you are saying is that the only reason you believe in the existence of the 1000+year old Mahdi is because you have some narrations that mention there are 12 imams. Other than this you have nothing.

With the same reason (a number of narrations) Muslims believe Jesus Christ Pbuh is alive and has a long life and will return, we believe (based on our narrations) that Mahdi atfs is alive, has been given by Allah swt a long life, and will return.

Now on these narrations i have to ask

1. How do you know they are sahih

2. Can you mention to me any book that can be reliably dated to a date predating the death of Hasan al Askari

1.we have numerous rijalists and they confirm what is or is not Sahih.

2.I'm not sure about this (that there is book written before the start of Mahdi atfs occultation), but I know that even Quran was compiled after the death of the prophet Muhammad صل الله علیه و آله و سلم. The whole time period that our Imams lived before occultation was around 250 years, I guess, during which, Imams and Shia were under the harshest pressures from let's say bad guys. But I don't think there is a different status with Sunniism. Sunnis narrate hadiths only from the prophet Pbuh, but none of their books were written at the time of the prophet, but after his death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we safely say that some leaders such as the revered an honourable Ayatullah Imam Khomeni and the current leader Ayatullah Imam Khamenei are both Seyyids from the lineage of the Ahlul Bayt, from which line of decent would either of these two great men of our time come from as we know Imam Mahdi az zaman is in occultation mode at the moment so he being the only male child at that time in the house of Imam Hassan Al Askari (a.s) and he then vanished as claimed without a wife or children, so is their a possibilty that Imam Hassan Al Askari (a.s) had a brother who was not one of the claimed 12/13 in line of Imamate, could these great leaders with titles of Seyyeds be the benefactors of his brother Imam Jafar (a.s)in terms of decendancy and could this lineage be existing from the only true lineage adopted by the marriage of Imam Ali (a.s) and the beloved daughter of our Prophet Bibi Fatima Az Zahra (s.a).

So in order of a complete circle of life to unfold the blessings of Ahlul Bayt would have also vanished with al Qaim, if these leaders claim they are from Alhul Bayt then why look further than your nose for the Imam of our time, can not the Imam be given to those who call themselves Seyyed e gharana e Mustafa e Muhammed (saw)e Fatima az Zahra e Imam Ali Murtaza mushkil khusha......And so on

The Mahdi of the Shiat is the reflection of absolute mythology based on a supernatural figure like Superman rather than one which is realistic and likened to the compatibility of Asadullah Imam Ali (a.s).

So your a 12er shiite who do not believe in the Mahdi and somehow the imama belongs to the sayyids? Unsure what your trying to say mate.

 

 

 

It completely answers your question.

I have chosen to follow a line of khulafa and aimmah which start from Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s. to Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. based on proofs that I rely on and trust. I don't care what others believe, as I believe them to be astray, whether they strayed from the very beginning like those who we call Ahlus-Sunnah, or later on, like Zaidis and Ismailis.

Teachings from this chain of leadership tells us in very clear terms and by way of countless riwayat, and consensus, such that I have no doubt, that there is the twelth Imam born to Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. thus proving his existence and that he is the Imam of the current time. That proves it for me.

 

So you have no objective evidence that there is a 1200 year old Man hiding somewhere and this Man happens to be the 12th Imam rather.

Seeing as you were either born into shiism or adopted it later as it happens to be the most popular version of Shiism at this time you reached the conclusion that version of the many is correct and that the linage this imamhood this version of shiism gives out is the correct one. From this you use the books of this version of shiism and in this book there happen to be some narrations attributed to those you consider Imams and they tell you there will be a figure who will live this long.

 

In other words you have no objective evidence for his existence and the only "evidence" you have are a few narrations from your own books.

 

As for what you posted on Saduq, i would say that is very laughable. If a Jew asks you about the amount of rakat his asking you about something you believe the Divine has decided and that alone answers his question. As for the "existence" of your 12th imam it doesnt only have an theological aspect as the number of rakat do it also has a historical aspect and the fact that it does have a historical aspects pretty much refutes your entire post and makes your post silly and "illogical" as you said., and seeing as there is absolutely no historical evidence for this mahdi we can take steps towards the probability of his non existence taking in factors such as.

1.14 Sects sprung out after Hasan al Askaris death If he really had a son that he appointed as a Mahdi this would have been common knowledge among his followers which we clearly can see from the number of sects that sprung out that was not the case.

2. There are sources that point out that Hasan Al Askari never had a son.

 

Taking these two points into consideration a more rational conclusion instead of saying that there is a 1200year old hiding leader in a cave whose birth was kept a secret is simply that those who decided to stay with the linage of Hasan Al Askari invented a mythological figure and invented narrations which they attributed to the Prophet and the previous leaders, the evidence for this is also we cannot find in any book that can be dated to a period before hasan al askaris death.

 

 

These presuppositions are facts to Shias (based on proper reasoning). If you want, you can open a new thread about this for me and my brothers and sisters to explain to you why.

As your friend above brought the exact same hadith i explain to him

Your explanation was from Sahih Bukhari which has no place in our minds and is not a reference for us.

Now it seems what you are saying is that the only reason you believe in the existence of the 1000+year old Mahdi is because you have some narrations that mention there are 12 imams. Other than this you have nothing.

With the same reason (a number of narrations) Muslims believe Jesus Christ Pbuh is alive and has a long life and will return, we believe (based on our narrations) that Mahdi atfs is alive, has been given by Allah swt a long life, and will return.

Now on these narrations i have to ask

1. How do you know they are sahih

2. Can you mention to me any book that can be reliably dated to a date predating the death of Hasan al Askari

1.we have numerous rijalists and they confirm what is or is not Sahih.

2.I'm not sure about this (that there is book written before the start of Mahdi atfs occultation), but I know that even Quran was compiled after the death of the prophet Muhammad صل الله علیه و آله و سلم. The whole time period that our Imams lived before occultation was around 250 years, I guess, during which, Imams and Shia were under the harshest pressures from let's say bad guys. But I don't think there is a different status with Sunniism. Sunnis narrate hadiths only from the prophet Pbuh, but none of their books were written at the time of the prophet, but after his death.

 

As for the rising of Isa. Muslims do not believe he is alive here on earth, they also do not believe that he has an active task they also base this belief from the Quran and is an interpretation which almost all sects agree on, also the difference is that the birth of jesus is not doubted by any sect. As for the case of your Mahdi who is supposedly living here on earth you are not able to bring any objective sources for his existence other than a few narrations in your books.

 

As for the Rijalist issue.  Sunnis have their own rijalists who happen to authenticate material that pretty much show the belief of your sect are contradictory to what the prophet said. Why should one take what the shia rijalists said in the first place over what the sunni rijalists who have authenticated material that say the mahdi would not be born untill the end of times?

 

As for the second point.

 

We are not disputing the existence of the Prophet. The reason i asked for a book that contain a narration of a hiding Mahdi(and there is no such book) is because as i said the belief was invented after the death of hasan al askari and the evidence for this is the absence of the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For Allah (SWT)'s sake, stop saying that Imam Mahdi (as) is in a cave. He has more freedom than we do. No shias believe that he when into an occultation in a cave, this is the sunni propaganda. 

 

Look Arabismo, my brotherly advice,

 

If you want to learn and find evidence that shia islam is correct or if you want to research about it, then the concept of the hidden imam is not the right place for you start. It's the last thing you wanna do your research. Now, you need to look into the concept of imamah in the religion of Islam and you need to learn whether the messenger of Allah (pbuh) did appoint a successor or not and who are they and even in the most sahih books of ahlu sunnah, bukhari or muslim, there is a hadith which says that Rasuallah (pbuh) said that "there will be 12 khalifas/successors after me"

When you start to understand that, the rest will automatically flow with it. 

 

Now, it's like your taking something out of a context and not fully understanding the origin of the concept. Believe me, not matter how much hadith or verses of the Quran we bring, you will not believe. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mahdi(atfs) is the name given to the Imam of the time.

We can therefore rephrase the question:

What evidence do the shia have for the existence of their Mahdi?

 as

What evidence do the shia have for the existence of the Imam of the time?

 

This is very primary to our beliefs and has been elaborated by our Holy Imams(as) in the first chapter of part 4 of usul e kafi.

that is: Part 4 The Book about People with Divine Authority

Chapter 1 The necessity of the presence of Divine Authority among the people.

Link to this resource:

 

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Al-Kafi.pdf

 

I request the learned participants to kindly go through this chapter.

Finally Allah is THE HADI.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

So you have no objective evidence that there is a 1200 year old Man hiding somewhere and this Man happens to be the 12th Imam rather.

Seeing as you were either born into shiism or adopted it later as it happens to be the most popular version of Shiism at this time you reached the conclusion that version of the many is correct and that the linage this imamhood this version of shiism gives out is the correct one. From this you use the books of this version of shiism and in this book there happen to be some narrations attributed to those you consider Imams and they tell you there will be a figure who will live this long.

 

In other words you have no objective evidence for his existence and the only "evidence" you have are a few narrations from your own books.

 

Your condascending tone indicates that you are only here to argue for the sake of argument.

 

Firslty, whether a person is born into Shi'ism or adopts the faith later on, that is besides the point.

Secondly, in matters of faith, certain core elements rest upon one another, and that is clear in Tawheed and Nabuwwah and Qiyamah etc. We will only believe in Jiinns described by the Holy Quran if we believe the Holy Quran to be a book of truths, and we will only believe it to be a book of truths if we believe in the Allah s.w.t being its author, and that the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. was his chosen messenger to bring us this book.

Thirdly, we have objectively decided that Imam Ali a.s. was the first Imam and then objectively decided that each of the subsequent 10 imams were the Imams after him respectively. Then after the 11th imam, based on hundreds of reports from the previous Imams whom we objectively decided to believe in, we believe that there was the 12th Imam born and he is to go into a long occultation, all of this prophecised by the Imams who we objectively decided to follow.

Fourthly, there is not a "few" narrations, as I mentioned already, they are in such number from the Imams as a whole that one cannot deny it after the acceptance of the fact that those 11 figures are the Imams.

 

 

As for what you posted on Saduq, i would say that is very laughable. If a Jew asks you about the amount of rakat his asking you about something you believe the Divine has decided and that alone answers his question. As for the "existence" of your 12th imam it doesnt only have an theological aspect as the number of rakat do it also has a historical aspect and the fact that it does have a historical aspects pretty much refutes your entire post and makes your post silly and "illogical" as you said., and seeing as there is absolutely no historical evidence for this mahdi we can take steps towards the probability of his non existence taking in factors such as.

1.14 Sects sprung out after Hasan al Askaris death If he really had a son that he appointed as a Mahdi this would have been common knowledge among his followers which we clearly can see from the number of sects that sprung out that was not the case.

2. There are sources that point out that Hasan Al Askari never had a son.

 

The Jew could ask that question in two ways: he could ask you to prove it to him, or he could ask you to prove it for ourselves from our own sources as per our beliefs.

If its the first, then that is the type of question you are asking.

If its the second, then we have countless narrations that prove what you are asking, of course none of which that you accept because you do not trust those sources.

 

You say its a matter of history, but we say its primarily a matter of theology.

But history is a funny thing. History does not tell us many things and confuses many things up, like the number of offspring a historic personality has, their names, their ages, etc. We find many such debates when we look into history, including the history of Islam and the key figures of Islam. And there are many things history does not know at all. Why is this? Because of the fact that history is related through fallible people, it is distorted by political propaganda, and a long passage of time makes certain historical facts lost to all. Any student of history knows this. Therefore history is not everything.

 

Yes, there was confusion amongst some people as to what happened after the death of Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s., due to the birth happening in secrecy and under house arrest, but the overwhelming number of believers in the 11 preceding Imams knew the truth, and few had become astray due to ignorance or opportunism, such that these other parties died out pretty quickly and it was clear to all Shias, based on the trusted companions of Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. and the teachings of all the preceding Imams that proved the existence of the 12th Imam.

There is always such confusion at crucial times. Indeed, even after the Prophet s.a.w.s. passed away, the Sunnis say that some people became astray, some started believing in false prophets and became murtadd, some refused to give Zakat, some became the Shias of Ali a.s. etc. but majority followed Abu Bakr which was the correct line (according to the Sunnis). Does this disorder and confusion negate what you believe to be the truth?? Of course not

Similarly, the Shias faced this issue at the death of the 11th Imam, but those who opposed the correct line had no backing from the sources of Shiaism and became extinct. The temporary existence of these groups does not take away the fact that on investigating the teachings of the Ahlul-Bayt a.s. in an objective manner, one would see the existence of the 12th Imam as the son of Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s. and all the other elements of his existence that we believe in.

And it is clear from the historians who count the number of sects after the demise of the 11th Imam a.s. that it was 12er faith that was overwhelming majority, and these other 13 or so groups were extremely fringe groups, so simply looking at the number 14 and thinking that the whole population of Shias divided equally into 14 groups is not the case at all.

 

In the end, you will want to believe that he does not exist, but this line of questioning does not refute anything for us, as we have our "objective" beliefs, just as you do.

 

Many have come to believe in the 12 Imam of the Shias, but they have never started their investigation on the 12th imam of course, although it is the only faith that fulfills the prophecy of there being 12 khulafa and leaders after the Prophet s.aw.s. . They started their researtch with the going-ons of Saqifa and the acts of the companions and saw who was the first khalifah of the Prophet s.a.w.s. from there, and pursued the line of leadership from there.

 

You find this "mythological" just as we find Abu Bakr's, Umar's and Uthman's greatness mythological.

 

So lets talk about Saqifah, because thats where the story really starts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ArabisMo well I do not subscribe to any sect whether Shia or Sunni, I am a Muslim and a follower of the final messenger, I do not promote any particular brand of Islam as they are many, However, I do believe in Allah's eventual guide for humanity leading to the end time but I have a reservation on a 1150 year old Mahdi and also have a view that he will be born through existing Ahlul Bayt by the permission of Allah (swt) and given immense assistance and protection for Him to complete the final showdown between good and bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

بِسْم الله الرحمن الرحيم

The evidence for himع and the Imammate of the rest of the A'immahع is established from both; the Quran and the Ahadith.

From the Quran, one evidence for establishing the authority of the 12 A'immahع including Imam Al-Mahdiع is in Surat An-Nur, Ayah 55; where Allahس promises the establishment of a successive authority or Khilafah to be made after the prophetص for every generation.

"Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession [to authority] upon the earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them [therein] their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, [for] they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that - then those are the defiantly disobedient."[An-Nur, 55]

As for the nature of the Khilafah and what form it takes(e.g whether the Khalif is chosen by Allah or the Shura of the fallible people), this must be understood through the context that Allahس uses in how He defined it in the Quran based on the Ayat that mention the nature and attributes of the Khalif and Khilafah in general. By reading the Quran and at the same time collectively examining the Ayat where Khalif or Khilafah are discussed, one acquires an understanding that Allahس emphasizes on the idea that the Khalif is strictly only divinely chosen by Him and never by the fallible people. Although there is no room to cover all those Ayat, but one example to get a general understanding of this is from Ayah 30 in Surat Al-Baqarah:

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." [Al-Baqarah,30]

In Kamal Al-Deen, Shaykh Al-Saduq Ibn Babawyhر gives a thoughtful explanation on this Ayah and how it is clear evidence for affirming that the Khalif is only chosen by Allah and never by the people. Here is a rough translation to a part of his discussion from Kamal Al-Din:

"The Khalifa(successive authority) before the creation:

And verily when Allah Tabaraka Wata'ala says in his wise book: "And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority". So Allah exalted is He started with the Khalifa before the creation(of humanity) and this affirms that the wisdom behind the Khalifa is much more eloquent than the wisdom behind the creation. And based on that, He started with it first and verily Allah is Al-Hakim(wise) and the wise starts with the important and critical matters first before the general and less critical. And this is also a confirmation to the saying of Al-Sadiq Ja'far bin Muhamed ع where he states:"The Hujjah is before the creation, with the creation and after the creation". And If Allah created humanity devoid of a Khalifa, he would have exposed them to destruction and this would not have prevented the corrupted from spreading his corruption..."

Rest can be found here: http://alkafeel.net/islamiclibrary/hadith/kamal/kamal/02.html#2

Another critical message that can be learned from the Ayah is that when Allahس announced to the Angelsع that he will create a man(Adamع) and divinely appoint him to be His Khalif on earth, He did not take into consideration the saying of the Angels on this matter nor what they thought and especially when they showed a slight objection where they said; (Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?). Instead, Allahس responded to them by saying (Indeed, I know that which you do not know) and further ordered them to make Sujood to Adamع. Hence, this in essence shows the great rank of the Khalif and that he is only chosen by Allah and none of his creation has a saying in his appointment. Moreover, the Angels who Allah created as infallible and are more superior than the fallible humans and Jin, even they had no saying on the appointment of a Khalif so how can one after understanding this message of this Ayah claim that the less superior and fallible humans have the complete authority in choosing the Khalif via a Shura of the last and best prophet and messenger sent to humanity? Asserting this would lead one to indirectly assert that it would conflict with the Divine Wisdom of Allah because had appointing a Khalif via the Shura of the people been valid, then Allah would have mentioned it to make it clear for the humanity and especially after emphasizing on how critical it was that the infallible Angels had no saying in choosing the Khalif. At the same time, no where in the Quran does Allahس state that the creation can appoint the Khalif in an way or form and the only emphasis He makes when mentioning the Khalif in the Quran is that the Khulafa are always divinely appointed by Him. Furthermore, Allah states that he made the Quran to be clear and included every critical aspect of faith in it without leaving anything out of it ("And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy) and since everything that is discussed in the Quran on Khilafa portrays a message that the Khalif is always only appointed by Allah and does not mention anywhere that he is appointed by the people, then by that we affirm from the Quran that the Khalif is always divinely appointed by Allahس. Hence the Shura of the people or any other foreign and deviant method not established clearly in the Quran used to appoint someone to be the Khalif is not acknowledged and negated.

With that being said, after understanding the nature of Khalifa and the Khalif from the Quran to be that the Khalif is only divinely appointed and never by the creation, then that can be applied to understand the Hadith of the 12 Khulafa. That is, the 12 Khulafa that the prophetص prophesied must be divinely appointed by Allah and they are none other than the 12 Imamsع with the 12th being Muhamed bin Al-Hassanع as the Imam and Hujjah of our time.

As for the proof that they are the 12 Khulafa including that of Imam Al-Mahdiع, then this can be confirmed via historical evidence through the numerous Ahadith that mention them and affirm their divinely appointed leadership. Here are a couple of good places to start:

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/qiyam

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027523-12-imams-as-mentioned-by-name-saheeh/?p=2764169

When it comes to ahadith, you dont look at one and only one ahadith. You try to understand a hadith without another hadith.

When the Prophet was asked about what would happen when there were no Imams he didnt say there will never be such a time he replied

Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman:The people used to ask Allah's Apostle about the good but I used to ask him about the evil lest I should be overtaken by them. So I said, "O Allah's Apostle! We were living in ignorance and in an (extremely) worst atmosphere, then Allah brought to us this good (i.e., Islam); will there be any evil after this good?" He said, "Yes." I said, 'Will there be any good after that evil?" He replied, "Yes, but it will be tainted (not pure.)'' I asked, "What will be its taint?" He replied, "(There will be) some people who will guide others not according to my tradition? You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of some others." I asked, "Will there be any evil after that good?" He replied, "Yes, (there will be) some people calling at the gates of the (Hell) Fire, and whoever will respond to their call, will be thrown by them into the (Hell) Fire." I said, "O Allah s Apostle! Will you describe them to us?" He said, "They will be from our own people and will speak our language." I said, "What do you order me to do if such a state should take place in my life?" He said, "Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam (ruler)." I said, "If there is neither a group of Muslims nor an Imam (ruler)?" He said, "Then turn away from all those sects even if you were to bite (eat) the roots of a tree till death overtakes you while you are in that state Sahih BukhariVolume 9, Book 88 Hadith nr 206 http://i-cias.com/textarchive/bukhari/088.htm

Likewise the first hadith you posted is conditional to when there is an Imam on earth. The hadith does not say there will always at all times be an imam. So please dont cherry pick ahadith that suits you the best from our book and

So the first hadith has nothing to do with your Mahdi

This story has been reported in Bukhari, Muslim and some of the Sunans. All of their chain of narrators eventually narrow down only to Hudhayfa as it's first narrator. In other words, there is no other Sahabi other than Hudhayfa who has reported this incident, hence making report to be Ahad. Ahad narrations especially for critical matters related to 'Aqeedah are not beneficial for knowledge and never lead to certainty, hence it is discarded and cannot be used as evidence. This is especially considering when there are other soundly established Qara'in when examined collectively clearly give an understanding to the Hadith to mean that the Imam is for every time. For example:

Ahmad bin Hanbal: Narrated to us Aswad bin 'Amir, he said: Narrated to us Abu Bakr, from 'Asim, from Abi Saleh, from Mu'awiyia: Allah's messenger said: "Whoever dies without an Imam dies the death of Jahilyah. [Musanad Ahmad, part 28, page 88]

Grading and commentary of the Muhaqiq: Saheeh Leghayrehe(authentic due to other factors strengthening it). And this Isnaad is Hassan due to 'Asim-and he is Ibn Bahdalah. And the rest of it's narrators are trustworthy and the narrators of Bukhari and Muslim except for Ibn 'Ayash who is only by Muslim. And this has been narrated by Ibn Abi 'Assim in (Al-Sunnah-1057), and Abu Ya'lah(7357), and Ibn Habban(4573), and Al-Tabarani in Al-Kabir(769/19) from from Abi Bakr bin 'Ayash with this Isnad.

https://ia802605.us.archive.org/26/items/waqmsnda/msnda28.pdf

Notice the "without an Imam" in the context of the narration. This is clearly speaking in the absolute sense with the Imam existing in every time. I don't think it's necessary that I need to emphasize that this Hadith is in our books as well.

Another example is from "Khasa'is Amir Al-Mu'imeen by Al-Nasa'i(Same author of the Sunan)":

Al-Nasa'i: Narrated to us Muhammad bin Muthana, he said: Narrated to us Yahya bin Hammad, he said: Narrated to us Abu 'Awanah from Sulayman(Al-A'mash), he said: Narrated to us Hubayb bin Abi Thabet from Abi Tufaylر from Zayd bin Arqamر, he said: When Allah's messengerص returned from Hujjat Al-Wada', and stopped at Ghadir Khum, he said: ((It's as if I have received the call and I answered it-and that I am leaving among you two weighty things, one greater than the other; the book of Allah and my progeny('Itrah) so look at how they will be left with you after me. And they will not separate from each other until they reach me at the fountain on day of Judgement)). Then he said: ((Verily Allah is my Mawla, and I am the Mawla of every believer)). Then he grabbed the hands of 'Ali and said: ((So who ever I am his Mawla then 'Ali is his Mawla. O Allah support those who support him and oppose those who oppose him)). Then I asked Zayd: "Did you hear it from Allah's messenger?". He said: "There is no one there who did not see and hear it with their eyes and ears". [Al-Khasa'is, page 96]

Grading and commentary of the Muhaqiq: Saheeh. It's narrators are all trustworthy from the narrators of the Shaykhayn(Bukhari and Muslim) except for Hubayb bin Abi Thabet who is a Mudallis but has been followed(eg. due to his high position and trustworthiness, he is not examined as the other less reliable but trustworthy Mudaliseen like Sulyaman Ibn Mehran Al-'Amash where such narrator's Hadith would be rejected when he uses <'An> instead of <Hadathana> or <Akhbarana> from the narrator he narrates the Hadith from).

http://ia801801.us.archive.org/13/items/WAQ26057/26057.pdf

The Tarjama of Hubayb bin Abi Thabet can be found here from Siyar 'A'lam Al-Nubala by Al-Dhahabi: http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?ID=843&bk_no=60&flag=1

The Noble Quran and the progeny not being separated from each other until the Akhira can only mean that they are left as two authorities that the Muslims must stick to in taking their religion from. Hence, this affirms that an Imam from the progeny of the prophetص must exist at every time for every generation until the final hour.

Edited by Al-Hassan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(...) and also have a view that he will be born through existing Ahlul Bayt by (...)

:huh:

There is no existing Ahl-ul-Bait apart from Imam Mahdi but since you don't believe in al-Qaim's existence, then there's no existing Ahl-ul-Bait (for you). Descendents of Aimmah [a] are not part of the Ahlul-Bayt just as direct children of them hadn't been (except the next Imam [a]) - that is simply absurd.

Correct me if I got anything wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let resurrect this thread (Keep getting banned)   I will only reply to relevant posts

 

 

 

Mahdi(atfs) is the name given to the Imam of the time.

We can therefore rephrase the question:

What evidence do the shia have for the existence of their Mahdi?

 as

What evidence do the shia have for the existence of the Imam of the time?

 

This is very primary to our beliefs and has been elaborated by our Holy Imams(as) in the first chapter of part 4 of usul e kafi.

that is: Part 4 The Book about People with Divine Authority

Chapter 1 The necessity of the presence of Divine Authority among the people.

Link to this resource:

 

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Al-Kafi.pdf

 

I request the learned participants to kindly go through this chapter.

Finally Allah is THE HADI.

 

 

 

So your saying the evidence for the existence of your Mahdi is simply narrations from your books?

 

 

 

Secondly, in matters of faith, certain core elements rest upon one another, and that is clear in Tawheed and Nabuwwah and Qiyamah etc. We will only believe in Jiinns described by the Holy Quran if we believe the Holy Quran to be a book of truths, and we will only believe it to be a book of truths if we believe in the Allah s.w.t being its author, and that the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.s. was his chosen messenger to bring us this book.

Yes you are right however Jinns, angels and such are not material. We cannot come in contact with them. As for your Mahdi who is supposedly your leader is a Man, since he is a man he had to be born, if he walked among men he had to have been seen. What we are asking for is simply if there is any evidence for his existence, these Narrations come from books that were written after this supposed Mahdi went into hiding and therefore they could easily have been fabricated by those shia who believed in the Imama of Hasan al Askari.

 

 

 

we have objectively decided t

 

 

 

 

prophecised 

Prove that he was prophesied by bringing me a source that can reliable be dated before his birth.

 

 

 

they are in such number from the Imams as a whole that one cannot deny it after the acceptance of the fact that those 11 figures are the Imams.

Sure name me how many narrations there are and mention to me how many of these narrations were authenticated by Majlisi then give me a reason as to why it is impossible for these narrations to have been fabricated after the time this Mahdi was supposedly born.

Also these narrations have to be clear cut and not vague.

 

 

The Jew could ask that question in two ways: he could ask you to prove it to him, or he could ask you to prove it for ourselves from our own sources as per our beliefs.

 

I guess you did not understand anything from my post and how a Theological topic is different than an historical one.

 

 

 

 Because of the fact that history is related through fallible people, it is distorted

 

Earlier you said

 

, they are in such number from the Imams as 

 

 

Do these ahadith in "such number" contain fallible men or not in their chain?

 

 

Yes, there was confusion amongst some people as to what happened after the death of Imam Hasan al-Askari a.s., due to the birth happening in secrecy and under house arrest

 

If there was a prophecy of the number of Imams and who could have been imam after Hasan al Askari there would never have been any confusion and the "birth happening in secrecy" wouldnt even be relevant because people would known from the Prophecy that he had a son. Yet we can see that after Hasan death 14 sects came up which i would say is evidence that there never was a Prophecy or a concept of 12 Imams.

 

 

 

, but the overwhelming number of believers in the 11 preceding Imams knew the truth

Prove that the overwhelming number believed that Hasan al Askari had a son and that he was the Imam 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From the Quran, one evidence for establishing the authority of the 12 A'immahع including Imam Al-Mahdiع is in Surat An-Nur, Ayah 55; where Allahس promises the establishment of a successive authority or Khilafah to be made after the prophetص for every generation. 

"Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them succession [to authority] upon the earth just as He granted it to those before them and that He will surely establish for them [therein] their religion which He has preferred for them and that He will surely substitute for them, after their fear, security, [for] they worship Me, not associating anything with Me. But whoever disbelieves after that - then those are the defiantly disobedient."[An-Nur, 55]

Dont see any evidence for either your mahdi existence or imama in that verse.

 

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." [Al-Baqarah,30]

Succesive authority in this verse refers to Mankind as a whole and not one Imam. Still i see no evidence for the existence of your mahdi

 

In Kamal Al-Deen, Shaykh Al-Saduq Ibn Babawyhر gives a thoughtful explanation on this Ayah and how it is clear evidence for affirming that the Khalif is only chosen by Allah and never by the people. Here is a rough translation to a part of his discussion from Kamal Al-Din: 

This is your subjective shi3i tafsir and really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. 

 

 

As for the proof that they are the 12 Khulafa 

As i replied to your friend above.

 

If there was a prophecy of the number of Imams and who could have been imam after Hasan al Askari there would never have been any confusion and the "birth happening in secrecy" wouldnt even be relevant because people would known from the Prophecy that he had a son. Yet we can see that after Hasan death 14 sects came up which i would say is evidence that there never was a Prophecy or a concept of 12 Imams.

 

 

This story has been reported in Bukhari, Muslim and some of the Sunans. All of their chain of narrators eventually narrow down only to Hudhayfa as it's first narrator. In other words, there is no other Sahabi other than Hudhayfa who has reported this incident, hence making report to be Ahad. Ahad narrations especially for critical matters related to 'Aqeedah are not beneficial for knowledge and never lead to certainty, hence it is discarded and cannot be used as evidence. This is especially considering when there are other soundly established Qara'in when examined collectively clearly give an understanding to the Hadith to mean that the Imam is for every time. For example: 

The Hadith of Jahiliyya is also Ahad which you used therfore your argument of ahad does not really hold.

 

The rest of your post regarding Ghadir Khum is really not relevant to the topic at hand. Sadly nothing in your post dealt with the existence of your 12th Mahdi.

 

 

If you honestly want evidence you'd make a concious effort to go through material that relates directly to the issue you're asking about. The fact you just disregard what we offer you due to it being in the format of a book or links illustrates you are either being lazy or you're not actually serious about this topic. Get up and go do the research yourself. Life isnt always handed out to us on a silver platter.

As you are a Mod here i dont have to tell you that this is ShiaChat and not ShiaCopyPaste. I am here to talk and have discussion with shia not to throw links back and forth if i wanted to read articles i would go to Google. 

 

As for what i want, i simply want to see some clear cut evidence for his existence just as i told your friend

 

Sure name me how many narrations there are and mention to me how many of these narrations were authenticated by Majlisi then give me a reason as to why it is impossible for these narrations to have been fabricated after the time this Mahdi was supposedly born.

Also these narrations have to be clear cut and not vague.

 

What we are asking for is simply if there is any evidence for his existence, these Narrations come from books that were written after this supposed Mahdi went into hiding and therefore they could easily have been fabricated by those shia who believed in the Imama of Hasan al Askari.

 

 

The red part should give you a good indication of what evidence would look like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What evidence do the shia have for the existence of their Mahdi?

 

What evidence do you have for the presence of the Devil / shaitan as representative of the evil forces?  i need to get it first to go ahead with the discussion.

 

If you believe the Devil is present then how you can neglect the presence of representative of Allah for guidance of people ie Imam of the present time?

 

The way of Allah is not changed.  Does Allah leave his creatures without any guide?

 

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wrote this in the other thread too. I'll write it again.

 

Why do the ahlu sunnah believe in the Dajjal being alive since the time of holy prophet(saww)?

Even you say he's locked up in chains in an island. 

 

First answer why do you believe in such things, then come and point your finger at us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...