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An Atheist Can Go To Heaven

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Whether you guys agree or disagree it doesn't matter at all. Allah (Swt) makes the final judgement. Why do people think their personal opinions matter in topics of religion? At least study a little so you can provide us with proofs.

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Whether you guys agree or disagree it doesn't matter at all. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì makes the final judgement. Why do people think their personal opinions matter in topics of religion? At least study a little so you can provide us with proofs.

I agree with this.  We will all be judged one day based on our deeds, and maybe for some Allah will decide that their good deeds outweigh their disbelief in Him.  In the end, it is all up to Him.

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And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. {3:85}

 

 

Whether you guys agree or disagree it doesn't matter at all. Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì makes the final judgement. Why do people think their personal opinions matter in topics of religion? At least study a little so you can provide us with proofs.

 

It's called having a say, the "personal opinion" is made after some one has researched the topic, obviously. 


And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. {3:85}

 

So I re-watched the video and I understand his sentiments now. Yes, I agree about the mustad'afeen.

 

 

It's called having a say, the "personal opinion" is made after some one has researched the topic, obviously. 

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Those who die as Atheists and Hypocrites are fuel for the fire. So what if they are "nice"? The question is not whether or not they are nice. The question is --- and the same applies to us for we may be hypocrites --- what is the BASIS for for them being nice.

When I am nice to others at work, am I nice to them because I love God who has created everyone? If I am not nice to people for the sake of my love for God then what for am I being nice? Most likely it is because if I am not nice or good to others, they won't be nice to me! Now isn't this selfish at its core? It may "appear" good. But it is nothing but sheer hypocrisy. This is called Atheism.

And we are no different than all those atheists out there when we are heedless of God. Yes, they may be better than us because at least they are not hypocritical about their belief in God. Of course, I speak about myself first and foremost.

Take care

Ma'salama

Ethereal

Edited by eThErEaL

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Having interacted with atheists, 

 

Some seek the truth but have been misguide by people around them, and are given distorted views of God and arguments, and hence deviate away. There may be some who are open to change if they are given a convincing argument admist this confusion, who openly go and seek and strive , debate, are genuinly open minded.

 

How many atheists after truly continuing and searching have converted to Islam or theism? They exist, and had they died before converting, we need to leave judgement to Allah swt.

 

No matter what we think or have opinion for, the final judgement is only Allah swts. I read a hadith in Al Kafi and will post it soon inshAllah.

Edited by Tawheed313

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Having interacted with atheists, 

 

Some seek the truth but have been misguide by people around them, and are given distorted views of God and arguments, and hence deviate away. There may be some who are open to change if they are given a convincing argument admist this confusion, who openly go and seek and strive , debate, are genuinly open minded.

 

How many atheists after truly continuing and searching have converted to Islam or theism? They exist, and had they died before converting, we need to leave judgement to Allah swt.

 

No matter what we think or have opinion for, the final judgement is only Allah swts. I read a hadith in Al Kafi and will post it soon inshAllah.

salam

 

This is a matter of principles... not really about judging any particular individual.  The principle is very clear and simple.  Anyone who dies without knowing God will not be saved.  Having said that, there are definitely cases where people call themselves Atheists but are in fact theists because they have such a profound understanding of God that they don't even like to call what they understand "God".  Many Buddhists will deny God or will say they are not concerned about God's existence.  But this is because they are just talking about a "god" in our imgainations that they don't believe in.  Who knows, maybe Chomsky is this way.  Allahu Alim.  And on the other hand a person could be calling himself a "Muslim", or a "Christian", but they have no knowledge of God whatsoever.  So we certainly canot judge any particular individual, let alone ourselves.  All we can do is talk about principles.  And the principle is that anyone who dies not knowing God is not going to be saved!   :)

Edited by eThErEaL

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salam

 

This is a matter of principles... not really about judging any particular individual.  The principle is very clear and simple.  Anyone who dies without knowing God will not be saved.  Having said that, there are definitely cases where people call themselves Atheists but are in fact theists because they have such a profound understanding of God that they don't even like to call what they understand "God".  Many Buddhists will deny God or will say they are not concerned about God's existence.  But this is because they are just talking about a "god" in our imgainations that they don't believe in.  Who knows, maybe Chomsky is this way.  Allahu Alim.  And on the other hand a person could be calling himself a "Muslim", or a "Christian", but they have no knowledge of God whatsoever.  So we certainly canot judge any particular individual, let alone ourselves.  All we can do is talk about principles.  And the principle is that anyone who dies not knowing God is not going to be saved!   :)

 

 

Walaikumsalam,

 

Some people may openly say something, but in their hearts it may be different. You may get a confused person who says he is convinced an is an atheist, but his heart says different, he may struggle,debate, try to find the right view, be good to all, and i am not saying he can enter jannah, only that Allah swt will judge us all, he is the the ultimate of all judges, we should agree anyone who prefers or knowingly rejects Islam due to arrogance, hate, or blamable reasons, will (if Allah swt wills) Go to hell if so Allah swt wills.

 

I leave all judgement to him.

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The dilemma is both the theist and atheist think they are on the path of truth. Neither one has proof, only what they accept to be proof in their own minds. Anyways, carry on working for the atheists while questioning and telling them they will burn in hell. The irony.

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According to Rajabali, the key is 'struggle'. 

 

So a 'struggling' athiest is equivalent to a 'struggling' Shia because in principal both are unsure of their beliefs and both can get into heaven.

 

 

I disagree.

 

Atheism is not only the lack of belief in the existence of a deity due to uncertainty, that's agnosticism. Adopting an atheistic stance is a conscious choice to believe there isn't one.

 

Why should a human that makes a sincere conclusion regarding his/her beliefs be punished? 

 

If a person 'knowingly' rejects a belief then an argument can be made regarding consequences.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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The Sayateen attack hearts of all humanity. One of the proof of Iblis and his forces existing despite the light of God in creation and his name present with in them, is the existence of Atheists. 

 

When a person becomes awaken to the guidance of God and it has come to them, and prefers the sorcery cast by the Sayateen of Jinn and humans, and prefers that darkness over the light, or prefers the Taghut's authority over that of Allah's authority and guidance of his representatives, he becomes worthy of Allah's wrath.

 

The Quran has a concept of mustafeen which don't mean they are just weak people, but rather people who didn't have the power of receiving the guidance of God to either reject it or believe in it.

 

Some of these people maybe be punished if they are evil, but God is forgiving and will forgive people if they weren't unjust and were upon a middle course although not in the state of the righteous obviously.

 

We have many hadiths on this, and the Quran shows a distinctions in Suratal Fatiha from mislead people and those who God's wrath is upon. In a sense, it's only those who God's wrath is upon that God misguides, while those astray in the other sense include people who are good and are guided to goodness, but aren't awake of the Haq of Ismallah and state of the Suratal Amsal husna and are not guided to the light of God.

 

Atheists can be mustafeen, but I find many of them do hate God and don't want God to exist, and that even when they are aware of proofs of God turn away from them. God will judge who hates him and hates his light justly and he will reward the good confused people with mercy and grace. 

 

Shirk is when you knowingly associate with God, as when Quran is looked at holistically, this is the image that comes forth from it.

 

And there is good people among all religions, that is why God condemns people who say no one will enter heaven except he is of this religion or that religion. 

 

The real religion is the nature of God that he has put humanity upon, and people adherence to that although not perfect are judged by what degree they are of it.

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The only heaven that matters to an individual is the one that exists in their belief system and the criteria your belief system has for getting there.

 

So whether an atheist will get to Muslim heaven or not will have no significance to an atheist, just as whether or not we will make it to Hindu heaven carries no meaning for us.

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Since I know many on this thread wont bother to read the article, I will post it here.

 

Question: We know of many people around the world who are not Muslims or Shi`a but are nevertheless individuals of good conduct; for example, non-Muslims are responsible for many inventions. Is it right that they all deserve to be punished in Hell because they are not Muslims?

 

Brief Answer

 

Those who do not believe in Islam can be classified into two groups:

 

1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has reached and who have understood its truthfulness. However, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group deserves to be punished in Hell.

 

2. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Qasir’ (lit. ‘inculpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has not reached, or it has been presented to them in a very incomplete and untruthful manner. Such people will attain salvation if they are truthful to their own religion.

 

Detailed Answer

 

Islam is a simple and accessible religion and it is easy to find out its truthfulness by means of the two guiding authorities that have been given to mankind: the ‘outer’ guiding authority, that is, Allah’s prophets and saints, and the ‘inner’ one, that is, the intellect.1

 

Islam is in complete opposition to the concept of religious pluralism because this concept is based on the principle that different beliefs are equal and that Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews etc. all have the same rank and status. According to religious pluralism, no proof exists for the invalidity of any belief because the truth is unattainable and religion is a relative and completely personal affair. Not only are its truths and real substance unattainable and every person takes from it whatever he or she personally understands, but furthermore, there are numerous truths and many correct paths to salvation and deliverance.

 

Such views are inconsistent with the religion of Islam, which is comprised of a set of fundamental beliefs and practical, legal and ethical laws and principles. Islam does however give concessions to those who are far from its reality. This can be better understood when we consider that there are two groups of people who do not believe in Islam:

 

1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’) and who are obstinate non-believers. That is, Islam has reached them and they have understood its truthfulness; however, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group of non-believers deserves to be punished in Hell because despite having known the truth, they have chosen with their own free will to reject Islam. These non-believers, even though they may be of good conduct, could have attained salvation but instead have closed the path to salvation themselves as they have covered the truth and are rebellious and obstinate in relation to it. As a result, they have chosen their own predicament.

 

2. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Qasir’ (lit. ‘inculpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has not reached, or it has been presented to them in a very incomplete and untruthful manner; so for example, they think that Islam has the same status and rank as the religions of India and China and at the most, Judaism and Christianity. This group of non-believers, whether they live in the most remote parts of the world or in the most civilized, will not be subject to the punishments of Hell because they are not blameworthy for their lack of belief, and punishment is only for blameworthy sinners.

 

Unfortunately, there is so much propaganda against Islam that free thinking and seeking the truth has been taken away from many people in a way that they cannot distinguish truth from falsehood. The fact is that despite making significant material progress, contemporary man has regressed spiritually. The main cause of this is the ‘World Arrogance’—the superpower enemies of Islam—with its propagandist and deceptive media system that in full force tries to change and distort the truth. Therefore, many people, even in the most civilized of places, have remained unaware of the true message of Islam and of the enlivening Ahlul Bayt (ع) school of thought. Worse still, incorrect and unrealistic information about Islam is given to them in a way that a religion of mercy, love and justice is portrayed as a religion of violence, oppression and injustice.

 

In conclusion, from the point of view of Islam, those who have not heard about the true message of Islam and are not blameworthy with regard to this will attain salvation if they are truthful to their own religion. This religion must be based on the ‘fitrah’2—man’s primordial, innate nature—and so the followers of such a religion, for example, abstain from lying and committing crimes against humanity. This rule is also applicable to the Ahlus Sunnah to whom the truthfulness of Shi’aism has not been explained correctly.

  • 1. al-Kafi, v.1, p.25, no. 22
  • 2. Fitrah: Allah says in the Qur`an, “The divine nature by which Allah has created mankind” (30:30). Therefore, the fitrah in every person is the root of all spiritual matters and goodness. Imam Rida (ع) has said, “And it is by means of the fitrah that His proof is substantiated” (al-Saduq, al-Tawhid, pg. 35. That is, whatever Allah has as argumentation is of no use without the fitrah. By this explanation, it becomes evident why in the terminology of Islamic philosophers and theologians the fitrah is referred to as the origin of all spiritual matters and goodness, in contrast to tabi’ah (nature), which is referred to as the origin of all material and instinctive matters. Man is a being of free will that continuously chooses the path of the fitrah or the way of tabi’ah, and it is with this free will that he determines his life in the Hereafter, as indicated in the famous hadith: “The World is a plantation for the Hereafter.”

http://www.al-islam.org/faith-and-reason-ayatullah-mahdi-hadavi-tehrani/question-13-non-muslims-and-hell

Edited by Ethics

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An Atheist going to Heaven?

If you remain committed to the definitions of "atheist" (a person who rejects God and hereafter) and heaven (a place promised to the believers in God and hereafter) then the above sentence is paradoxical.

And if you change the definitions, then yes, 2×2 can be 5 with a different set of definitions.

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I believe you are misunderstanding the term used by the hajj. What is struggling? How does one struggle in faith? By getting into debates? By crying for the truth? By proactively searching and examining everything? By praying? By rejecting half halfheartedly? What is to struggle? What is to be a mustadifeen? An oppressed? What I am saying is, struggling is different for everyone. It is when one is open minded, free from arrogance and ignorance, proactively and justly seeking the truth. Only the person and Allah swt will know how hard they sought the truth. To question Allah's guidance is childish, because you fail to hold your own self liable. Always trying to find an excuse to get out of judgement. IF one believes in Allah, first and foremost, one understands, there is not one whom Allah swt guides, except that which WANTS to be guided. It is not to say, Allah is not all guiding, but it is to say, when does the self reject guidance, at what point?

 

I believe I sense some anger with the 2 exclamation points in the end, but what faith are you talking about? The TRUE faith? Then certainly not.

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Can we continue this topic I'm enjoying it and want more :confused:

is everyone's view still the same or have they changed?

maybe members that haven't posted their own opinions yet can put theirs in.

Edited by HumanForLife

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20 hours ago, HumanForLife said:

Can we continue this topic I'm enjoying it and want more :confused:

is everyone's view still the same or have they changed?

maybe members that haven't posted their own opinions yet can put theirs in.

Here's an interesting question.

Who rejects a belief consciously and deliberately while knowing it is true? 

Seriously. Do you personally know a non-Muslim or ex-Muslim who has done so? I don't.

If we are judged purely by intention, does this not mean most of humanity will be entering heaven?

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35 minutes ago, Chair Pundit said:

Who rejects a belief consciously and deliberately while knowing it is true?

@Chair Pundit

An interesting Quote by Thomas Nagel, A famous atheist philosopher,

‘I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God and, naturally, hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that’

Edited by HumanForLife

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Possibly Nagel ideas stem from the fact that he does not trust God or Gods behavior. Most humans make statements based on evidence. I think disbelief stems from the unequal hierarchy that God has created based on his on whims, which the human thought will eventually disapprove of.

 

side note : Never read his works, I am speculating based on the quote.

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Even these elaborations are going to be bias based on a persons on intellectual and experiential disposition.

Human minds are based on accumulation, which gives a purpose to living. Religion, disapproves of such extreme notions, and pushed man towards the accumulation of deeds for the greater accumulative element. The game that we are all living, has a hierarchy, it is the only way, it can function, where, there are going to be unequal rights, no matter how one taints it. Whether it be , with the ideas of theistic tests, to test of faith to natural selection regarding survival of the fittest. The atheist initial thought process that brings the onset of disbelief comes from the idea that the higher power that proclaims protection and love to neglecting many of its creations or allowing some of its creations to be unjust to its creations. This is the typical idea which is discussed by most atheists. An unjust world.

A simple example : If a parent has two children, but favours the one with the better genetic or intellectual prowess, the one without, would feel neglected and would eventually lose their faith and respect for the parent. There may be an element of love through some fortunate good times or for the care given to them, which they return through reciprocity. Even theists who were given hard times by their parents, state that because of GOD, they respect the elder, but the hate never dissipates.

We want God to be something special and great and to some "he" is, to most "he" isn't. But whose responsibility is it, that  we/they think like this.

 

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I know that there are a variety of christians with varying ideas on this concept.  From my perspective, which is commonly held by other protestants around me, atheists can get into heaven.

 

Things to consider,

Chair pundit: "Who rejects a belief consciously and deliberately while knowing it is true?  "

The truth is, probably less than 1% of people on earth.  We just dont reject things that we find true, because if we think theyre true, we believe them.

Now, beyond this, consider scenarios where people were not taught of Christ (coming from a christian perspective), and may have had an ill experience with other christians.  I use the hypothetical...

Lets say there in history were christian slave owners, who ruined the life and family of people who were not aware of Christs salvation.  If someone approached a slave and asked them if they knew of Christ dying for our sins and their salvation, they could only really associate Christianity with the people who had ruined their lives.

There are countless hypothetical you could play with that in history certainly occurred plenty of times where people are given wrong impressions and/or do not understand Christ and therefore reject truth.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we go further, Christ is known to provide what is essentially infinite grace.  Now, obviously im not going to get into a philosophical debate here, but, given this thought, it would not be graceful to annihilate anyone in the above scenario who never really had a "fair" chance in life to come to learn or discover Christ.  The whole  "catch" in Christianity is that Christ died for our salvation from situations just like this one. He takes the weight of our shortcomings, our ignorance and failures, and he delivers us from our own corruption essentially.

Many catholics have ideas related to purgatory, and some may claim that people are saved in part through their actions rather than souly on beliefs (for this reason).

Beyond catholocism, there are protestants that believe that the grace of Christ extends in ways that would save those and provide fairness, grace and salvation for all those who made efforts to discover Him or to know Him.

I'd be happy to expand on this with scripture, but i cant imagine too many here are interested in reading beyond this...

Edited by iCambrian

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And again, you will find variation in beliefs from Christians, just as you will with Muslims. Its really a matter of interpretation. My thoughts are commonly held by many, and likewise i know many who would say just the opposite.

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On 5/12/2015 at 6:44 PM, Tawheed313 said:

Having interacted with atheists, 

 

Some seek the truth but have been misguide by people around them, and are given distorted views of God and arguments, and hence deviate away. There may be some who are open to change if they are given a convincing argument admist this confusion, who openly go and seek and strive , debate, are genuinly open minded.

 

How many atheists after truly continuing and searching have converted to Islam or theism? They exist, and had they died before converting, we need to leave judgement to Allah swt.

 

No matter what we think or have opinion for, the final judgement is only Allah swts. I read a hadith in Al Kafi and will post it soon inshAllah.

those people whom Islam never reached or it only reached to them in a corrupt form (i.e people`s innovations and false beliefs made it impossible for them to believe in Islam). then such people will be given another fair chance on the day of judgment because Allah will never be unjust to anyone in the least degree, for his Justice is absolute, he is the most just and the most wise. 

Now i`m not sure whether you will accept this hadith or not but the evidence for this belief is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

According to another report, he said: “Whoever enters it, it will be cool and safe for him, and whoever does not enter it will be dragged to it.” (The hadeeth was reported by Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan, and deemed saheeh by al-Albaani, Saheeh al-Jaami’, 881).

but as far the answering in this video is concerned then it is wrong in the case of a person  whom Islam reached  in it`s perfect form without any corruption but still that person chose to reject Islam because of his personal views & wishes in life and kept on looking elsewhere. then in such a case that person will fail the test because he failed to meet the basic criteria for passing the test of free will.

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6 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’

But no messenger physically came to me, either.

If an absent Prophet of the past was not sufficient for the man as a reason to accept belief, why should it be for us?

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7 hours ago, Student_of_Deen said:

but as far the answering in this video is concerned then it is wrong in the case of a person  whom Islam reached  in it`s perfect form without any corruption but still that person chose to reject Islam because of his personal views & wishes in life and kept on looking elsewhere. then in such a case that person will fail the test because he failed to meet the basic criteria for passing the test of free will.

What is perfect to one is imperfect to another. This "basic criteria" does not exist by virtue of the fact that it's not basic at all.

Are personal views not developed on the basis of belief?

It is not possible to believe in that which one cannot believe. It sounds tautological, but it's clear that those of religious persuasion haven't grasped this basic logic. 

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