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A Vital Question For My Sunni Brothers/sisters

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walaykumsalaam, hmm this is a very good question.  the only time i heard about this was in passing during lecture. as i remember it, it is wrong to take this hadith literally.  i will ask about this question.

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1. If Allah swt created space and movement, why would he be subject to the very creation he himself created?

2. If he created space , why would he himself be limited to a location in space and be able to move from area x to area y, was he also limited before creating it, and if he wasn't why then subject himself to limitations?

3. Why would Allah swt require movement, when he is free of all need?

4.  Could he still be God and be limited by time and distance and space - attributes he himself created?

 

1) - I didn't get first question. Honestly. Please paraphrase. 

2) You making great mistake in understanding of this hadith. You comparing our movement from one place to another with this report which speaks about Allah. Don't compare Creator with creation.

3) Who said He need movement? 

4) No. Time, Space and distance these all are for creation not for Creator.

 

Key points in understanding of such reports and verse from Quran where stated that He made istiwa ala Arsh: 1) Believe in them. 2) Don't alternate their meanings. 3) Don't compare. 4) Don't ask how? 

 

Asking how is pure heresy.

 

Some benefits to add to discussion. 

Ibn Qawlaveyh al-Qummi author of Kamil Az Ziyarat (p 142), that he himself authenticated, narrated:

 

حدَّثني أبي ـ رحمه الله ـ عن سعد بن عبدالله ، عن محمّد بن عيسى بن عُبيد اليقطينيِّ ، عن محمّد بن سِنان ، عن أبي سعيد القَمّاط عن ابن أبي يَعفور ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : بينما رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم في منزل فاطمة عليها السلام والحسين في حِجره إذ بكى وخرَّ ساجداً ، ثمَّ قال : يا فاطمة بنت محمّد! إنَّ العليَّ الأعلى ترائي لي في بيتك هذا في ساعتي هذه في أحسن صورة وأهْيَأ هَيئة ، وقال لي : يامحمّد أتحبّ الحسين؟ فقال : نعم ؛ قُرة عيني ورَيحانتي وثمرة فؤادي ؛ وجلدة ما بين عيني ، فقال لي : يا محمّد ـ ووضع يده على رأس الحسين عليه السلام ـ بورك من مولود عليه بركاتي وصلواتي ورحمتي ورضواني ؛ ولعنتي وسخطي وعذابي وخزيي ونكالي على مَن قَتَلَه وناصَبَه وناواه ونازَعَه ، أما إنّه سيّدُ الشّهداء مِنَ الاُوَّلينَ والآخِرينَ في الدُّنيا والآخرَة ـ وذكر الحديث ـ »

 

 

“One day in the house of hazrat Fatima Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, the Messenger of Allah (s) took imam Huseyn Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in his arms. Suddenly he cried and made prostration. Some time later, the hazrat said: ‘Oh Fatima! Oh Muhamad’s daughter, The Most High in this hour, in this house has shown Himself to me in the most beautiful form and the best manner and said: ‘Oh Muhammad! Do you love Huseyn?’ I said: ‘ He is my eye’s light, my sweet-scented plant, fruit of my soul and leather between two of my eyes’.

Then, he put his hand on Huseyn’s blessed head and said: ‘Oh Muhammad, may this newly born kid, upon whom are My blessing and greeting, mercy and pleasure, be blessed. My anger, curse and punishment, humiliation and disgrace will be upon his killer, also upon person who hates him and goes against him. Know that he is the leader of the first and the last martyrs in this world and the hereafter and the leader of the youth among the creation in the Paradise’.”

 

So in accordance to shia report, Allah visited house of Fatima. And you guys also narrated:

 

Sayyed ibn Tawus in his “Farhat al-Qariy” (p 102) from Yunus ibn Abu Wahb al-Qasriy:

 

دخلت المدينة فأتيت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) (فقلت: جعلت فداك اتيتك ولم أزر أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام)) ، قال: بئس ما صنعت، لولا أنك من شيعتنا ما نظرت إليك، ألا تزور من يزوره الله مع الملائكة، ويزوره الأنبياء، ويزوره المؤمنون!.

I entered to Madina and come to Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) and said: May I be your ransom, I came to you and didn’t visit to Commander of Faithful (alaihi salam) (1) (Imam) said: What a bad thing you did, if you wouldn’t be from our shias, we wouldn’t look at you. You didn’t visit the one, whom Allah with his angels visits, and visits prophets, and visits believers!

 

This report you can find in Kamil az-Ziyarat (p 89), Toose Tahzib (6/20); Mufid Mazar (p 20).

 

So Allah visited house of Fatima, and He use to visit grave of hz Ali.

Edited by Abu_Rumaysah

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^ Except that Kamil az-ziyarat (a book that I personally have never heard of) totally has the same level of authenticity to the Shias that Bukhari does to the Sunnis.

 

On topic, it’s a simple question. If you want to twist the meaning and give it your own interpretations that's just fine. But you still have to answer a very simple question. Does God change or move? Yes or no?

Yeah sure if I ask a Christian whether God is three he'll come up with all sorts of similar apologetic claims about how there's actually more to that than just the number three. But again that's just a simple yes or no question so please don't be like the Mushrikeen.

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The narration is Weak (Da'eef) due to Muhammad b. Sinān.

 

 

 

 

 

This narration is also  Weak (Da'eef). In addition to other deficiencies, the main narrator is Majhool (unknown). These two narrations have been graded by Āṣif al-Muḥsinī [ha], in his work: Mashra`ah Bihār al-Anwār:

 

  1. Grading: Weak (not reliable).

    -->Mashra`ah Bihār al-Anwār, Vol. 1, pg. 436.

  2. Grading: Weak (not reliable).

    -->Mashra`ah Bihār al-Anwār, Vol. 1, pg. 462.

 

In addition, both these narrations are not interpreted in a literal sense by the scholars who mentioned them. Nor do we endorse any attribute that limits Allāh. 

 

(salam)

No brother. Kāmil al-Ziyārat is not considered authentic in terms of every chain present. The author yes, had made the claim that what he mentions is considered reliable. However, scholars have taken his word, only in authenticating his Shuyūkh (teachers). This includes al-Khūī [r.a] and other prominent scholars. 

 

Excellent,

 

It is disingenuous of our dear brother to quote hadiths when he has debated me before and knows our position and Ijmah and actual sahih hadiths opposes the idea Allah swt can ascend or descend, more less daef hadiths. 

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Salamun Alaykom

If someone wants to know the most reliable sources of Shia Islam in addition to Holy Quran, they are four books (each with several volumes) with highest reliability to we Shias.

1. Kafee by Kolaynee

2. Man La Yahdharohu Al-Faqih by Sadooq

3. Tahzeeb by Toosee

4. Istibsar by Toosee

Wassalam

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Peace be with you,

 

To my dear sunni brothers and sisters in Islam, what is your view with regards to the concept of Allah swt literally moving, and how do you think that is logically tenable and inline with the doctrine of tawheed?

 

Here is the hadith, and i look forward to a cordial and respectful dialouge on it:

 

Bukhari:

1145( Abu Hurairah)

“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

 

Points of contention:

 

1. If Allah swt created space and movement, why would he be subject to the very creation he himself created?

2. If he created space , why would he himself be limited to a location in space and be able to move from area x to area y, was he also limited before creating it, and if he wasn't why then subject himself to limitations?

3. Why would Allah swt require movement, when he is free of all need?

4.  Could he still be God and be limited by time and distance and space - attributes he himself created?

 

 

 

Our Imams a.s ofcourse have adressed this, and the following is the shia position:

 

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

If God wills could he 

1. Subject himself to the creation he himself created?

2. Limit himself to a location.

3. Move

4. Stay God while he limits himself.

 

I be looking forward for you answer.

^ Except that Kamil az-ziyarat (a book that I personally have never heard of) totally has the same level of authenticity to the Shias that Bukhari does to the Sunnis.

 

 

A shi3i who have never heard of Kamil az ziyarat is like a sunni who has never heard of Fath ul bari. 

 

The author of the book said all the shuyukh are thiqa and Khoei did hold the view some point of his life that the entire book is authentic.

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Peace be with you,

 

To my dear sunni brothers and sisters in Islam, what is your view with regards to the concept of Allah swt literally moving, and how do you think that is logically tenable and inline with the doctrine of tawheed?

 

Here is the hadith, and i look forward to a cordial and respectful dialouge on it:

 

Bukhari:

1145( Abu Hurairah)

“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

 

Points of contention:

 

1. If Allah swt created space and movement, why would he be subject to the very creation he himself created?

2. If he created space , why would he himself be limited to a location in space and be able to move from area x to area y, was he also limited before creating it, and if he wasn't why then subject himself to limitations?

3. Why would Allah swt require movement, when he is free of all need?

4.  Could he still be God and be limited by time and distance and space - attributes he himself created?

 

 

 

Our Imams a.s ofcourse have adressed this, and the following is the shia position:

 

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

Well...It could be just a way of making a point clear. Allah swt hears all and always and everywhere, hence 'He comes down' emphasizing His Mercy on us.

Always open to forgive Hamdoulilah;D

 

Still tho even if the hadith does not fit in tawheed after cross examination it goes into the bin ofcourse. I think 99 precent of the Sunni believe that Allah swt is free of need and is not limited by anything. 

Edited by Dutch002

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Well...It could be just a way of making a point clear. Allah swt hears all and always and EVERYWHERE, hence 'He COMES DOWN' emphasizing His Mercy on us.

Always open to forgive Hamdoulilah;D

 

 

 

The above statement is contradictive, if as you claim that: Allah swt is "EVERYWHERE"  then why dose Allah swt needs to descend? Try to articulate your point without contradicting yourself?

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Peace be with you,

 

To my dear sunni brothers and sisters in Islam, what is your view with regards to the concept of Allah swt literally moving, and how do you think that is logically tenable and inline with the doctrine of tawheed?

 

 

 

The crux of the doctrine of tawheed is to believe in oneness of Allah swt & to recognize HIS essence & attributes with no partner's or peers. This is what we are required to follow. The discussion of Allah's ability is not related to tawhid. Just like belief of the Prophet Mohammad [saw] being the final messenger is the requirement to enter in Islam, his personal attributes & characteristics may not be he same in the understanding of every muslim & the latter is not an issue to be questioned by Allah swt. 

 

 

Any hadith which negates the Quranic decisions is to be thrown away irrespective of its isnad. 

 

 

“There is nothing like Him, and He is the All‑Hearer, the All‑Seer” [42:11]

 

 

I think the verse is clear that No one can be like Allah swt in whatever form He is & Allah swt hears & see's everything. Now arguing that how he does it & when he does it is not what we should be discussing. Its useless.

 

 

 

 

Some benefits to add to discussion. 

Ibn Qawlaveyh al-Qummi author of Kamil Az Ziyarat (p 142), that he himself authenticated, narrated:

 

حدَّثني أبي ـ رحمه الله ـ عن سعد بن عبدالله ، عن محمّد بن عيسى بن عُبيد اليقطينيِّ ، عن محمّد بن سِنان ، عن أبي سعيد القَمّاط عن ابن أبي يَعفور ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام «قال : بينما رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم في منزل فاطمة عليها السلام والحسين في حِجره إذ بكى وخرَّ ساجداً ، ثمَّ قال : يا فاطمة بنت محمّد! إنَّ العليَّ الأعلى ترائي لي في بيتك هذا في ساعتي هذه في أحسن صورة وأهْيَأ هَيئة ، وقال لي : يامحمّد أتحبّ الحسين؟ فقال : نعم ؛ قُرة عيني ورَيحانتي وثمرة فؤادي ؛ وجلدة ما بين عيني ، فقال لي : يا محمّد ـ ووضع يده على رأس الحسين عليه السلام ـ بورك من مولود عليه بركاتي وصلواتي ورحمتي ورضواني ؛ ولعنتي وسخطي وعذابي وخزيي ونكالي على مَن قَتَلَه وناصَبَه وناواه ونازَعَه ، أما إنّه سيّدُ الشّهداء مِنَ الاُوَّلينَ والآخِرينَ في الدُّنيا والآخرَة ـ وذكر الحديث ـ »

 

 

“One day in the house of hazrat Fatima Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, the Messenger of Allah (s) took imam Huseyn Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in his arms. Suddenly he cried and made prostration. Some time later, the hazrat said: ‘Oh Fatima! Oh Muhamad’s daughter, The Most High in this hour, in this house has shown Himself to me in the most beautiful form and the best manner and said: ‘Oh Muhammad! Do you love Huseyn?’ I said: ‘ He is my eye’s light, my sweet-scented plant, fruit of my soul and leather between two of my eyes’.

Then, he put his hand on Huseyn’s blessed head and said: ‘Oh Muhammad, may this newly born kid, upon whom are My blessing and greeting, mercy and pleasure, be blessed. My anger, curse and punishment, humiliation and disgrace will be upon his killer, also upon person who hates him and goes against him. Know that he is the leader of the first and the last martyrs in this world and the hereafter and the leader of the youth among the creation in the Paradise’.”

 

So in accordance to shia report, Allah visited house of Fatima. And you guys also narrated:

 

Sayyed ibn Tawus in his “Farhat al-Qariy” (p 102) from Yunus ibn Abu Wahb al-Qasriy:

 

دخلت المدينة فأتيت أبا عبد الله (عليه السلام) (فقلت: جعلت فداك اتيتك ولم أزر أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام)) ، قال: بئس ما صنعت، لولا أنك من شيعتنا ما نظرت إليك، ألا تزور من يزوره الله مع الملائكة، ويزوره الأنبياء، ويزوره المؤمنون!.

I entered to Madina and come to Abu Abdullah (alaihi salam) and said: May I be your ransom, I came to you and didn’t visit to Commander of Faithful (alaihi salam) (1) (Imam) said: What a bad thing you did, if you wouldn’t be from our shias, we wouldn’t look at you. You didn’t visit the one, whom Allah with his angels visits, and visits prophets, and visits believers!

 

This report you can find in Kamil az-Ziyarat (p 89), Toose Tahzib (6/20); Mufid Mazar (p 20).

 

So Allah visited house of Fatima, and He use to visit grave of hz Ali.

 

 

 

Instead of clarifying the true position of a muslim on the issue, u start a never ending debate by bringing forward hadith from their books allowing more confusion to grasp the mind of the viewers. Its like "ok you scratch my back i'll scratch yours" & since u believe that Bukari & Muslim are "sahih" u have no chance to talk abt the isnad of the hadith the op has quoted so the burden is upon u not them as they dont believe that Kamil al ziyarat is "sahih".

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The author of the book said all the shuyukh are thiqa and Khoei did hold the view some point of his life that the entire book is authentic.

 

(bismillah)

 

Sayed al-Khūī [r.a] retracted his view on the Tawthīq (approvals) of all the narrators in Kāmil al-Ziyārāt to only the authors Mashāyikh (teachers) that he (the author) narrates directly from in the book. The retraction of his Fatwā was in 1988. (link). A Number of his students (e.g., al-Muhsinī) have also testified. It also possible that he retracted his position on Tafsīr al-Qummī somewhere closer to his death, if we take al-Mīlanī's Testification for granted. 

 

Wa`aslām

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli

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Our Imams a.s ofcourse have adressed this, and the following is the shia position:

 

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

 

 

I read somewhere the statement of Imam Malik [rah] regarding the narration from Sahih Bukhari.  He said, "The Istiwaa (Allaah’s Rising Over His Throne) is ma’qool (known); the 'how' is majhool (inconceivable); belief in it is wajib (obligatory); asking about it is bid’ah (an innovation); and I  fear that you are not anything but an innovator.' Then he commanded that the man be removed.”

 

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal [rah] explained it by saying that it is Allah's [swt] Rahmah that descends.  If we approach the narration literally, it speaks of descent but nothing about ascension.  If Allah [swt] was descending physically, then He must also ascend (or return to His Original position), naudhibillah.  But we see that that is not the case which rejects the notion that Allah [swt] descends physically, naudhibillah.  Hence, the explanation that His Rahmah descends is substantiated.

 

In other hadiths, as mentioned in this video, it is said that an angel is sent down, similar to what you have quoted.

 

To sum it all up, we believe in the descent but we do not know the "how" of it.  It is also acceptable to believe that His Rahmah descends or He [swt] sends down an angel.  What is not acceptable is to believe that Allah [swt] descends physically, naudhibillah.

 

Edited by muslim720

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The above statement is contradictive, if as you claim that: Allah swt is "EVERYWHERE" then why dose Allah swt needs to descend? Try to articulate your point without contradicting yourself?

Who says that Allah swt needs to descend? Do you have problems with reading? Descending is a figure of speech. Meaning it could be angels that descent or a creation made by Allah swt since He only has to say 'Be' and it is. However this is not the case i think. This hadith has all the traces of being a reminder that Allah swt is everywhere and you can always ask forgiveness. Edited by Dutch002

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I read somewhere the statement of Imam Malik [rah] regarding the narration from Sahih Bukhari.  He said, "The Istiwaa (Allaah’s Rising Over His Throne) is ma’qool (known); the 'how' is majhool (inconceivable); belief in it is wajib (obligatory); asking about it is bid’ah (an innovation); and I  fear that you are not anything but an innovator.' Then he commanded that the man be removed.”

 

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal [rah] explained it by saying that it is Allah's [swt] Rahmah that descends.  If we approach the narration literally, it speaks of descent but nothing about ascension.  If Allah [swt] was descending physically, then He must also ascend (or return to His Original position), naudhibillah.  But we see that that is not the case which rejects the notion that Allah [swt] descends physically, naudhibillah.  Hence, the explanation that His Rahmah descends is substantiated.

 

In other hadiths, as mentioned in this video, it is said that an angel is sent down, similar to what you have quoted.

 

To sum it all up, we believe in the descent but we do not know the "how" of it.  It is also acceptable to believe that His Rahmah descends or He [swt] sends down an angel.  What is not acceptable is to believe that Allah [swt] descends physically, naudhibillah.

 

I think this is why it is important to study Bukhari/Muslim hadiths before giving any judgement, for example in that hadith, there were  people at that time who understood it wrongly and thus was thinking it means physical decending. Alhamdulillah that both sunni and shias agree that is wrong.

If Sunnis have hadith that says it dosen't means physical decending [well Qur'an is enough], then i don't know what is wrong with the bukhari hadith. Even in Qur'an it contradict the thinking that Allah [swt] change or move.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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I think this is why it is important to study Bukhari/Muslim hadiths before giving any judgement, for example in that hadith, there were  people at that time who understood it wrongly and thus was thinking it means physical decending. Alhamdulillah that both sunni and shias agree that is wrong.

If Sunnis have hadith that says it dosen't means physical decending [well Qur'an is enough], then i don't know what is wrong with the bukhari hadith. Even in Qur'an it contradict the thinking that Allah [swt] change or move.

 

Dear brother,

 

There are some who take it literally i.e Allah swt descends, and it is key to not ask how. They state 'we merely believe in it'. The important thing is, such groups do not rule out the literal meaning and simply accept. That's the danger with those who falsely stated it is Allah swt who descends, because it left the ahlul-sunnah in quite a mess as to how to inteprete it, and therefore you had the emergence of salafi's, humbalis, hanafi's, etc, though rightly so, there are many groups who rule out its literal meaning, and others who state it meant an angel descends - like what the shia view is.

 

A pristine example of why the ahlulbayt a.s was needed.

 

Dr Ninowy is an extremely 'moderate' sunni in my own view.

Edited by Tawheed313

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I think this is why it is important to study Bukhari/Muslim hadiths before giving any judgement, for example in that hadith, there were  people at that time who understood it wrongly and thus was thinking it means physical decending. Alhamdulillah that both sunni and shias agree that is wrong.

 

 

Hadiths are not as easy as copy-pasting.  We do not agree that the hadith is wrong.  We believe the descending occurs but how it occurs is known to Him.  Just like when He will settle all our accounts in a short amount of time in the Hereafter; just like He can hear all our prayers simultaneously.  So the descending happens.  Whether He sends an angel or His Rahmah descends or any other explanation, we hear and we obey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear brother,

 

1.  There are some who take it literally i.e Allah swt descends, and it is key to not ask how. They state 'we merely believe in it'. The important thing is, such groups do not rule out the literal meaning and simply accept.

 

2.  That's the danger with those who falsely stated it is Allah swt who descends, because it left the ahlul-sunnah in quite a mess as to how to inteprete it, and therefore you had the emergence of salafi's, humbalis, hanafi's, etc, though rightly so, there are many groups who rule out its literal meaning, and others who state it meant an angel descends - like what the shia view is.

 

3.  Dr Ninowy is an extremely 'moderate' sunni in my own view.

 

4.  A pristine example of why the ahlulbayt a.s was needed.

 

 

1.  Anyone who takes it literally is outside the fold of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

 

2.  What you consider to be "quite a mess" is actually a testimony of tolerance of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah because in spite of small fiqh differences, we are all under the same umbrella.  Now if you are not included under that umbrella, it spells "quite a mess" for you.  Hanafis, Shafis, Malikis and Hanbalis are all Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah and we are free to follow whichever madhhab.  Can you say that about Zaidis and Ismailis?

 

3.  Truth be told, Sheikh Ninowy is seen as an "innovator" because he - as someone else eloquently put it - has political Aliyid tendencies but not Aliyid beliefs.

 

4.  The Zaidis and Ismailis - plus the other infinite number of Shia branches - would say the same.  But who is to say that you have the monopoly on Ahlul Bayt [ra]?

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Hadiths are not as easy as copy-pasting.  We do not agree that the hadith is wrong.  We believe the descending occurs but how it occurs is known to Him.  Just like when He will settle all our accounts in a short amount of time in the Hereafter; just like He can hear all our prayers simultaneously.  So the descending happens.  Whether He sends an angel or His Rahmah descends or any other explanation, we hear and we obey.

 

I said "physical" descending, that what we both disagree. Our Imam described what was the correct belief, which we both agree. But the nature of that hadith can tell you that there were people who believe in literal meaning.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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بِسْم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Here is an interesting response by Imam Al-Redhaع where he gives the correct understanding to the Hadith. The explanation given for it by the Imamع is to some extent similar to the one the that the Asha'ira and Matureedis give to it, like how Dr. Ninowy gave in that video. This is recorded in Al-Tawhid by Shaykh Al-Saduq Ibn Babawyhر, which can be found here: http://www.aqaed.com/book/135/twhid1-11.html#twh35

ROUGH TRANSLATION(I apologize in advance for any mistranslations):

Section: Rejecting that Allah can be (limited) to space, time, movement, navigation, descending and ascending.

Al-Saduq: Narrated to us Ali bin Ahmed bin Muhamed 'Imranر, he said: narrated to us Muhammed bin Haroon Al-Sufi, he said: Narrated 'Ubayd Allah bin Musa Abu TuraAl-Ruwayani, from 'Abd Al-'Adhim bin 'Abd Allah Al-Hassany, from Ibrahim bin Abi Mahmood, he said: I said to Al-Redhaع: "O son of Allah's messenger. What do you say about the Hadith that the people narrate from Allah's messengerص were he said the following: (Verily Allah descends every night onto the sky of the Dunyah)"? Heع said: "May Allah curse those who distort the words from their original meaning! By Allah, Allah's messenger did not say that. But rather, Allah's messengerص said the following:

(Verily Allah exalted He is descends an Angel to the sky of the dunya every night when one third of the night remains, and on the start of the night of Jum'ah and then the angel calls out; "Is there anyone supplicating so that I can grant him(what he asks for)? Is there any repenter that I can repent for? Is there anyone seeking forgiveness that I can forgive?..." and he continues to call out until Fajr. And when Fajr arrives, he returns back to his place in the realm of the heavens). This has been narrated to by my father, from my grandfather from Allah's messengerص". [Hadith #7]

7 - حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن محمد بن عمران الدقاق رضي الله عنه، قال:

حدثنا محمد بن هارون الصوفي، قال: حدثنا عبيد الله بن موسى أبو تراب الروياني، عن عبد العظيم بن عبد الله الحسني، عن إبراهيم بن أبي محمود، قال: قلت للرضا عليه السلام: يا ابن رسول الله ما تقول في الحديث الذي يرويه الناس عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم أنه قال: إن الله تبارك وتعالى ينزل كل ليلة إلى السماء الدنيا؟ فقال عليه السلام:

لعن الله المحرفين الكلم عن مواضعه، والله ما قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم كذلك، إنما قال صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: إن الله تبارك وتعالى ينزل ملكا إلى السماء الدنيا كل ليلة في الثلث الأخير، وليلة الجمعة في أول الليل فيأم فينادي هل من سائل فاعطيه؟ هل من تائب فأتوب عليه؟ هل من مستغفر فأغفر له؟ يا طالب الخير أقبل، يا طالب الشر اقصر، فلا يزال ينادي بهذا حتى يطلع الفجر، فإذا طلع الفجر عاد إلى محله من ملكوت السماء، حدثني بذلك أبي عن جدي، عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم

Here are also other related Ahadith from Al-Tawhid but under a different section.

Section: Meaning of Allah's saying(The beneficent one who is on the Throne established-Taha, Ayah 5).

Narrated to us Muhamed bin Al-Hassan bin Al-Walidر, he said: Narrated to us Al-Hussayn bin Al-Hassan bin Aban, from Al-Hussayn bin Sa'id, from Al-Nadhar bin Suweed, from 'Asim bin Hamid, from Abi Baseer, from Abi 'Abdillah Ja'far bin Muhamed Al-Sadiqع, he said: "Who ever claims that Allah Glorious and Exalted is He, is from a thing, or inside a thing, or on top of a thing, then he has certainly disbelieved."I said: "Explain further". He said:" I mean a thing containing him, or touching Him or passing by Him."[Hadith 5]

5 - حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رحمه الله قال: حدثنا الحسين بن الحسن بن أبان، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن النضر بن سويد، عن عاصم بن حميد، عن أبي بصير، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام، قال: من زعم أن الله عز وجل من شئ أو في شئ أو على شئ فقد كفر، قلت: فسر لي، قال: أعني بالحواية من الشئ له، أو بإمساك له، أو من شئ سبقه.

And in another narration, he said: "Who ever claims that Allah is from a thing, he made him..(Muhdithan?). And who ever claims that He is inside a thing, then he has limited Him. And who ever says that he is on top of a thing, then he described Him to be carried"[Hadith 6]

6 - وفي رواية أخرى قال: من زعم أن الله من شئ فقد جعله محدثا، ومن زعم أنه في شئ فقد جعله محصورا، ومن زعم أنه على شئ فقد جعله محمولا.

Narrated Muhammed bin Musa bin Al-Mutawakulر, he said: Narrated Abd Allah bin Ja'afar, from Ahmed bin Muhamed, from Al-Hassan bin Mahboob, he said: Narrated to me Muqatil bin Sulayman, he said: I asked Ja'far bin Muhamedع on Allah's saying(The beneficent one who is on the Throne established). He said: "He established his authority over everything(i.e over all creation including the Throne according to most Tafsirs). And it cannot be said that a thing is closer to Him than another thing"[Hadith 7]

7 - حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل رحمه الله قال: حدثنا عبد الله بن جعفر، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، قال: حدثني مقاتل بن سليمان، قال:

سألت جعفر بن محمد عليهما السلام، عن قول الله عز وجل: (الرحمن على العرش استوى) فقال:

استوى من كل شئ، فليس شئ أقرب إليه من شئ

And from this Isnad(the one above), from Al-Hassan bin Mahboob, from Hamad, he said: Abu Abdilah Ja'far bin Muhamed Al-Sadiqع said:" Verily one has lied to claim that Allah Glorious and Exalted is he, is from a thing, inside a thing or on top of a thing."[Hadith 8]

8 - وبهذا الإسناد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن حماد، قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: كذب من زعم أن الله عز وجل من شئ أو في شئ أو على شئ

Who says that Allah swt needs to descend? Do you have problems with reading? Descending is a figure of speech. Meaning it could be angels that descent or a creation made by Allah swt since He only has to say 'Be' and it is. However this is not the case i think. This hadith has all the traces of being a reminder that Allah swt is everywhere and you can always ask forgiveness.

To sum it all up, we believe in the descent but we do not know the "how" of it. It is also acceptable to believe that His Rahmah descends or He [swt] sends down an angel. What is not acceptable is to believe that Allah [swt] descends physically, naudhibillah.

Brothers, I'm assuming that you both are Ash'aris? The Salafiya oppose your interpretation of the Hadith and understand it in the literal sense that Allahس Himself descends to the sky, not His angels nor his mercy, Na'uthobillah. This opinion was held by almost all of their scholars including Ibn Taymiyah, Ibn Al-Qayim Al-Jawzi, Ibn Kathir, Albani, Ibn Baaz and Ibn Uthaymeen. At the same time, the Asha'ira and others staunchly opposed them on this and their methodology in understanding the Ayat on Sifat Allah to always be literal, so I'm curious as to what your input on this is.

"The rising of Allaah over His Throne, which means that He Himself is High and above the Throne, is of a special nature which befits His Majesty and Might. No one knows how it is except Him.

This was proven in the saheeh Sunnah, where it is narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that Allaah descends during the last third of the night. It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Our Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when the last third of the night remains, and He says, ‘Who will call Me that I might answer him, who will ask of Me that I might give him, who will ask My forgiveness, that I might forgive him?’” (narrated by al-Bukhaari, Kitaab al-Tawheed, 6940; Muslim, Salaat al-Musaafireen, 1262)

According to Ahl al-Sunnah, the meaning of this descent is that Allaah Himself comes down to the lowest heaven in a real sense, as befits His Majesty, and no one knows how that is except Him"

Full article: http://islamqa.info/en/12290

وعليكم السلام

Edited by Al-Hassan

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Infact, despite brother in the ahlul-sunnah wal jamaah dissociating themselves from limiting Allah swt to time , space, dimension, they have had a fierce battle between logic, their fitrah, and what can never be reconcilable in their hadiths. That's why we see mass confusion, different views, as well as very dangerous views held.The ahlul-sunnah need to distance themselves from the salafi's, and then acknowledge their hadiths can never reconcile with aql, and , as strange as it seems, join the path of the ahlulbayt a.s

 

You get  many , many views, each group within the ahlul-sunnah fighting one another.

 

The true sunni's will definitely reject the salafi ideas but they still run into big problems.

 

Here's an example

 

I recommend this link: http://www.central-mosque.com/index.php/Beliefs/is-Allah-everywhere-or-is-he-on-his-throne.html

The scholar in the link affirms Allah swt is outside of time, and space, and is unlike anything else. However, in order to affirm that we need to rule out that Allah swt is literally above the throne. The respected scholar gives three positions he considers valid. Option B, is contradictory. If you affirm Allah swt is without direction, outside of time, space, - which we all should affirm, we can not in the same breath say he is literally above the heavens but we must not ask how. Those two statements are contradictory. It's like a Labour Candidate saying they argue for the poor an middle class, but they also want big tax breaks on the millionares and cut benefits on those that are disable and nee it, but we must not ask how, if you follow me dear brother?

You see, i believe we humans all inside us know tawheed. It's part of our fitrah, we know Allah swt is so transcendent. But then there's the problem of hadiths, which in my view, had caused even the likes of extremely intelligent scholars such as Ibn Taymiyyah to digress.


I guess i've cleared up my own views as a reply to your question, inshAllah i'll make another thread in the future and present the more nuanced views in the ahlul-sunnah.

Option A. Consigning their meanings and details completely to the knowledge of Allah. This position, known as tafwid, was chosen by the majority of early scholars (salaf), and by far the best and safest approach.

b

Option B. Affirming their literal meanings (tathbit) – with emphatic rejection of a similitude between Allah and His creation – and then consigning the modality (kayfiyya) of such texts to the knowledge of Allah. This position, chosen by scholars such as Imam Ibn Taymiya, can be risky for an average believer.

C

Option C Interpreting such texts figuratively in a manner that befits Allah. This is known as ta'wil, and was chosen by some later scholars.http://www.central-mosque.com/index.php/Beliefs/is-Allah-everywhere-or-is-he-on-his-throne.html

Edited by Tawheed313

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It's pretty strange , look at the view of salafi's:

 

http://islamqa.info/en/13491

 

 

 

 

And another salafi website arguing against the sunni's that perform tafwid - something shias' dont do either, but there's so much infighting

 

Tafwid literally means to relegate, or to entrust someone with something. It is found in the ayah, “…my affair I commit (ufawwidu) to Allah…” (40:44).

For the scholars of kalam it means to relegate the meanings of the Attributes of Allah without explaining them or discussing them. This was unknown to the early scholars and doesn’t seem to have appeared until the time of al-Shahrastani, Ghazali, and Razi (d. 547, 505, and 612AH respectively).

They made tafwid because of the false conviction that the Attributes could not be understood in a literal manner or it would lead to anthropomorphism, and the realization that the early scholars of Islam had never been exposed to the Aristotelian logic and cosmology upon which they based this conviction.

This led them to say that the earlier generations had no knowledge of the Sifaat and that they were “too pious and holy” to understand them, and thus made tafwid, whereas the ‘refined’ and ’sophisticated’ scholars of kalam came to make it more academic.

To make tafwid is to basically say the Attributes of Allah are like random letters, i.e. when Allah says He has a “yadd” (hand) He may as well just have said “Alif Laam Meem” because we don’t know what it means and we ‘relegate’ it to Allah. This is in direct contradiction to what Imam Maalik said, that isitiwaa is KNOWN but the kayf (how) is unknown. When one makes tafwid he says the meaning is also unknown. And this is what is meant by the copious narrations from the early scholars which all basically say in regards to the narrations of Allah’s Attributes, “pass them on as they have come, we believe in them, and narrate them, without any kayf.”

If Imam Maalik’s narration was in support of tafwid he would have never said istiwaa is known and the kayf is unknown. He wouldn’t need to specify the kayf if the meaning was also unknown (as is the case in tafwid).

Ibn Taymiyyah said in al-’Aql wan-Naql,

 

http://www.saheefah.org/2007/12/01/the-dangers-of-tafwid/

Edited by Tawheed313

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"I am very newly from the Jahiliyya, and now Allah has brought Islam," and he proceeded to ask about various Jahiliyya practices, until at last he said that he had slapped his slave girl, and asked if he should free her, as was obligatory if she was a believer. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) requested that she be brought, and then asked her, "Where is Allah?" and she said, "In the sky (Fi al-sama)"; whereupon he asked her, "Who am I?" and she said, "You are the Messenger of Allah"; at which he said, Free her, "for she is a believer" (Sahih Muslim, 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956.

 

 

http://wayofthesalaf.com/pdf/en/hadeeth-muawiyyah-in-al-hakam-answering-nuh-haa-meem-keller.pdf 

Edited by Tawheed313

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(bismillah)

 

Sayed al-Khūī [r.a] retracted his view on the Tawthīq (approvals) of all the narrators in Kāmil al-Ziyārāt to only the authors Mashāyikh (teachers) that he (the author) narrates directly from in the book. The retraction of his Fatwā was in 1988. (link). A Number of his students (e.g., al-Muhsinī) have also testified. It also possible that he retracted his position on Tafsīr al-Qummī somewhere closer to his death, if we take al-Mīlanī's Testification for granted. 

 

Wa`aslām

I know he retracted his view thats why i said 

 

 Khoei did hold the view some point of his life

 

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If God wills could he 

1. Subject himself to the creation he himself created?

2. Limit himself to a location.

3. Move

4. Stay God while he limits himself.

 

I wonder why the OP ignored my questions  :donno:

No. Read the Ahadith I posted above.

Also, Allah Himself states in Surat Al-An'am that His creation cannot perceive Him in anyway.

"Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives[all] vision; and He is the subtle, the Aquitanted."[Al-An'am:103]

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No. Read the Ahadith I posted above.

Also, Allah Himself states in Surat Al-An'am that His creation cannot perceive Him in anyway.

"Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives[all] vision; and He is the subtle, the Aquitanted."[Al-An'am:103]

Post the hadith you think answers my 4 questions here.

As for Allah being perceived by vision. I ask you the Question. If Allah wills can he be perceived by vision or not?

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Post the hadith you think answers my 4 questions here.

As for Allah being perceived by vision. I ask you the Question. If Allah wills can he be perceived by vision or not?

Thats like saying If Allah wills can he create another Allah?  Its a nonsensical question.

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Thats like saying If Allah wills can he create another Allah?  Its a nonsensical question.

It easy to assert something is nonsensical. Please tell me why is it a nonsensical question

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1.  The Salafiya oppose your interpretation of the Hadith and understand it in the literal sense that Allahس Himself descends to the sky, not His angels nor his mercy, Na'uthobillah.

 

2.  This opinion was held by almost all of their scholars including Ibn Taymiyah, Ibn Al-Qayim Al-Jawzi, Ibn Kathir, Albani, Ibn Baaz and Ibn Uthaymeen. At the same time, the Asha'ira and others staunchly opposed them on this and their methodology in understanding the Ayat on Sifat Allah to always be literal, so I'm curious as to what your input on this is.

 

 

1.  Which is why the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah is opposed to the Salafis.  I wonder how active you are in the ummah.  For example, I take time to visit Shia mosques as often as I can.  I have made it a ritual because I want to be involved in the affairs of the ummah.  Many of the mosques in the Washington DC area have started active programs to counter Wahabi/Salafi infiltration.

 

2.  You have been misinformed because the first name in your list is that of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] whom I consider to be one of the most misunderstood and misused scholar.  Leaving Ibn Baaz, Albani and Ibn Uthaymeen aside - since they do not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Ibn Kathir [rah] al-Jawzi [rah] and Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] - I can assure you that Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] rejected this notion. 

 

"Ibn Taymiyyah says, 'As for the nuzool that is not of the type of the nuzool of the (created) bodies of the servants, then it is not impossible that it occurs at the same time for a great number of the creation … and this is like His reckoning of His servants on the Day of Judgement, He will reckon all of them within a single hour, and all of them will be alone with Him, just like a man is alone with the moon on a clear night, and He will make him affirm his sins, and that one being reckoned will not see that He is reckoning others besides him'.

And then Ibn Taymiyyah brings ahaadeeth in this regard, and he also mentions the hadeeth of Allaah responding ot the servant when he recites al-Faatihah in the prayer, so Allaah says, 'My servant praised me' and so on, and this is to every one who prays, at the same time, and likewise Allaah sees everyone all at the same time, and he provides for everyone all at the same time, so likewise, the nuzool – if we remove that presumption of 'kayf' that is prohibited which is that the nuzool is like that of the created bodies – then we are not subject to this doubt, and then we are able to affirm it for Allaah without tashbeeh and tamtheel and without any caution in that.

And in all of this there is sufficiency for the believer who affirms what Allaah affirmed for Himself without takyeef and without ta’teel and without tamtheel'."

 

As far as Albani is concerned, he authenticated the hadith and agreed with the statement of Imam Malik [rah] (posted below), not the notion of physical descent.

 

"The Istiwaa (Allaah's Rising Over His Throne) is ma'qool (known); the "how" is majhool (inconceivable); belief in it is wajib (obligatory); asking about it is bid'ah (an innovation); and I  fear that you are not anything but an innovator." Then he commanded that the man be removed."

 

Here is the link:  http://www.salafitalk.net/st/printthread.cfm?Forum=%208&Topic=9603

 

The position of Ibn Uthaymeen is also made clear.  In a nutshell, Ibn Uthaymeen asked for us to believe in the unseen and that which we cannot perceive or comprehend.  He did not substantiate "physical descent".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I am very newly from the Jahiliyya, and now Allah has brought Islam," and he proceeded to ask about various Jahiliyya practices, until at last he said that he had slapped his slave girl, and asked if he should free her, as was obligatory if she was a believer. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) requested that she be brought, and then asked her, "Where is Allah?" and she said, "In the sky (Fi al-sama)"; whereupon he asked her, "Who am I?" and she said, "You are the Messenger of Allah"; at which he said, Free her, "for she is a believer" (Sahih Muslim, 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956.

 

 

http://wayofthesalaf.com/pdf/en/hadeeth-muawiyyah-in-al-hakam-answering-nuh-haa-meem-keller.pdf 

 

 

"In this connection, a hadith has been related by Malik in his Muwatta' and by Muslim in his Sahih, that Muawiya ibn al-Hakam came to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and told him, "I am very newly from the Jahiliyya, and now Allah has brought Islam," and he proceeded to ask about various Jahiliyya practices, until at last he said that he had slapped his slave girl, and asked if he should free her, as was obligatory if she was a believer. The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) requested that she be brought, and then asked her, "Where is Allah?" and she said, "In the sky (Fi al-sama)"; whereupon he asked her, "Who am I?" and she said, "You are the Messenger of Allah"; at which he said, Free her, "for she is a believer" (Sahih Muslim, 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1403/1983, 1.382: 538).

 

Imam Nawawi says of this hadith:  This is one of the "hadiths of the attributes," about which scholars have two positions.  The first is to have faith in it without discussing its meaning, while believing of Allah Most High that "there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him" (Qur'an 42:11), and that He is exalted above having any of the attributes of His creatures.  The second is to figuratively explain it in a fitting way, scholars who hold this position adducing that the point of the hadith was to test the slave girl: Was she a monotheist, who affirmed that the Creator, the Disposer, the Doer, is Allah alone and that He is the one called upon when a person making supplication (du'a) faces the sky--just as those performing the prayer (salat) face the Kaaba, since the sky is the qibla of those who supplicate, as the Kaaba is the qibla of those who perform the prayer--or was she a worshipper of the idols which they placed in front of themselves? So when she said, In the sky, it was plain that she was not an idol worshipper (Sahih Muslim bi Sharh al-Nawawi. 18 vols. Cairo 1349/1930. Reprint (18 vols. in 9). Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1401/1981, 5.24).

 

It is noteworthy that Imam Nawawi does not mention understanding the hadith literally as a possible scholarly position at all.  This occasions surprise today among some Muslims, who imagine that what is at stake is the principle of accepting a single rigorously authenticated (sahih) hadith as evidence in Islamic faith (`aqida), for this hadith is such a single hadith, of those termed in Arabic ahad, or "conveyed by a single chain of transmission", as opposed to being mutawatir or "conveyed by so many chains of transmission that it is impossible it could have been forged".

 

Yet this is not what is at stake, because hadiths of its type are only considered acceptable as evidence by traditional scholars of Islamic `aqida if one condition can be met: that the tenet of faith mentioned in the hadith is salimun min al-muarada or "free of conflicting evidence". This condition is not met by this particular hadith for a number of reasons. First, the story described in the hadith has come to us in a number of other well-authenticated versions that vary a great deal from the "Where is Allah?--In the sky" version. One of these is related by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih with a well-authenticated (hasan) chain of transmission, in which the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) asked the slave girl, "'Who is your Lord?' and she said, 'Allah'; whereupon he asked her, 'Who am I?' and she said, 'You are the Messenger of Allah'; at which he said, 'Free her, for she is a believer'" (al-Ihsan fi taqrib Sahih Ibn Hibban, 18 vols. Beirut: Muassasa al-Risala, 1408/1988, 1.419: 189)."

 

To sum it up, only one version of the hadith comes with the question "Where is Allah" while all the other narrations come with the question, "Who is your Lord".

Edited by muslim720

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Asak

Brother muslim720 also ibn taymiyah listed merits of all 11 imams of shiites in his book and praised mujaddids and also shaikh abdul qadir ! Which others dont bother to highlight. The only thing he used harsh words were for the sake of refutations ! Which bothers most.

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Asak

Brother muslim720 also ibn taymiyah listed merits of all 11 imams of shiites in his book and praised mujaddids and also shaikh abdul qadir ! Which others dont bother to highlight. The only thing he used harsh words were for the sake of refutations ! Which bothers most.

 

 

Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] was a genius.  I borrowed a book titled, "Ibn Taymiyya and his times" (authored by a non-Muslim) from a friend and I cannot go beyond the first few pages.  His arguments are so heavy that one cannot read and understand one page in one sitting.  He is truly misunderstood and highly abused (his works at least).

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No. Read the Ahadith I posted above.

Also, Allah Himself states in Surat Al-An'am that His creation cannot perceive Him in anyway.

"Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives[all] vision; and He is the subtle, the Aquitanted."[Al-An'am:103]

If vision cannot percieve Him than why are we having a discussion right now...

We cannot grasp the idea on how Allah swt descends so why speculate on it? And even if Allah swt Himself descends, He is God and capable of anything. You are subjecting Allah swt to time and space which is wrong on so many levels. 

Edited by Dutch002

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1. Which is why the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah is opposed to the Salafis. I wonder how active you are in the ummah. For example, I take time to visit Shia mosques as often as I can. I have made it a ritual because I want to be involved in the affairs of the ummah. Many of the mosques in the Washington DC area have started active programs to counter Wahabi/Salafi infiltration.

2. You have been misinformed because the first name in your list is that of Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] whom I consider to be one of the most misunderstood and misused scholar. Leaving Ibn Baaz, Albani and Ibn Uthaymeen aside - since they do not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Ibn Kathir [rah] al-Jawzi [rah] and Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] - I can assure you that Ibn Taymiyyah [rah] rejected this notion.

"Ibn Taymiyyah says, 'As for the nuzool that is not of the type of the nuzool of the (created) bodies of the servants, then it is not impossible that it occurs at the same time for a great number of the creation … and this is like His reckoning of His servants on the Day of Judgement, He will reckon all of them within a single hour, and all of them will be alone with Him, just like a man is alone with the moon on a clear night, and He will make him affirm his sins, and that one being reckoned will not see that He is reckoning others besides him'.

And then Ibn Taymiyyah brings ahaadeeth in this regard, and he also mentions the hadeeth of Allaah responding ot the servant when he recites al-Faatihah in the prayer, so Allaah says, 'My servant praised me' and so on, and this is to every one who prays, at the same time, and likewise Allaah sees everyone all at the same time, and he provides for everyone all at the same time, so likewise, the nuzool – if we remove that presumption of 'kayf' that is prohibited which is that the nuzool is like that of the created bodies – then we are not subject to this doubt, and then we are able to affirm it for Allaah without tashbeeh and tamtheel and without any caution in that.

And in all of this there is sufficiency for the believer who affirms what Allaah affirmed for Himself without takyeef and without ta’teel and without tamtheel'."

As far as Albani is concerned, he authenticated the hadith and agreed with the statement of Imam Malik [rah] (posted below), not the notion of physical descent.

"The Istiwaa (Allaah's Rising Over His Throne) is ma'qool (known); the "how" is majhool (inconceivable); belief in it is wajib (obligatory); asking about it is bid'ah (an innovation); and I fear that you are not anything but an innovator." Then he commanded that the man be removed."

Here is the link: http://www.salafitalk.net/st/printthread.cfm?Forum=%208&Topic=9603

The position of Ibn Uthaymeen is also made clear. In a nutshell, Ibn Uthaymeen asked for us to believe in the unseen and that which we cannot perceive or comprehend. He did not substantiate "physical descent".

I assumed you were Ash'ari. In what I have seen from most Ash'ari sources, almost all showed a strong critical view towards not only the Salafis, but Ibn Taymiyah as well. For example:

https://taymiyyun.wordpress.com/2014/05/17/ibn-taymiyya-affirms-limits-for-Allah-in-the-six-physical-directions/

If vision cannot percieve Him than why are we having a discussion right now...

We cannot grasp the idea on how Allah swt descends so why speculate on it? And even if Allah swt Himself descends, He is God and capable of anything. You are subjecting Allah swt to time and space which is wrong on so many levels.

Again. We do not believe that Allah Himself descends as discussed in the previous posts so your statements are not a Hujjah upon us, hence why we have disagreements on Tawheed.

Moreover, It is forbidden to discuss the "Hows" and the "Whys" on issues that are related to Allah's Divine Attributes. That is, when Allah informs us about His Divine Attributes or also that the Noble Quran is His speech when it comes to the issue of whether it's created or uncreated, we then accept to believe in them just the way they are and do not go beyond that in questioning how or why they are in such way.

However it's a completely different case when a group of people calling in the name of Islam come out and preach an interpretation of His attributes that is conflicting and deviant from it's correct form in which He originally established it to be. In such case, it's not a matter of "why are we having a discussion if we can't grasp Him..", or something similar along those lines. Instead, it's more of defending the correct form of these teachings against deviant beliefs that try to hijack and distort them.

Edited by Al-Hassan

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