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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Are Shi'a Kuffar?

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Amina

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(bismillah)

 

(salam) everyone,

 

I've repeatedly come across the accusations against shi'a and heard us being called kuffar (unbelievers). It is all over Internet, in the books and in the news.

 

And yet it only needs one shi'a book to be read (by a takfeeri) to see that we recognize Allah te'ala's Unity (tawheed), the unseen worlds, the divine books, the messengers  (as), that we pray, pay zakat, make pilgrimage, fast in the Month of Ramadhan etc. We share the pllars of the faith (except that we have additional Imamate), so why are we considered unbelievers? What exactly do we not believe in, that make us kuffar? (I mean, the recognition of the 4 "khulafa' al rashideen" is not a part of the shahadah, is it? We are called "rafidheen" for refusing the first three caliphs, but is a rafidhi automatically a kafir? It is not logical and does not stand the judgement by the religious laws, so it cannot be that.)  

 

Pick any Qur'an from any shi'a home or mosque and you'll see it is the same as that our Sunni brothers read.

 

And yet I have just yesterday seen a documentary called "British jihadi brides", in which we are again accused of "changing the tawheed" and have been compared to pigs.

 

So can anyone please explain what exactly we are accused of? What exactly is the difference between the Sunni and the Shi'a tawheed?  

 

Why are we not just a fifth school of thought beside the 4 major Sunni ones, but are excluded from Islam entirely? Even though we share the same tawheed? (or do we - I am completely confused...)

 

Jazakum Allah te'ala khayran,

 

Amina

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(bismillah)

 

(salam) brother,

 

In this program that I saw we are definitely called kuffar who "changed the tawheed" and this attitude comes from the takfeeri preachers on the Internet.

 

I have also heard that our prayer at the tombs of Ahlul bayt  (as) is the "essence of unbelief" ('ayn ul kufr) by a prominent Sunni cleric on al Jezeera.

 

So it definitely is NOT about the successors of the Prophet  (pbuh) only, but has to be something else, since tens of millions of Sunnis, many of them intelligent, well-read and educated, are ready to believe it and to consider it a thawab to kill us, and even to be enough for a reason to travel to Shaam and join the IS.  

 

And it would not happen if it were a mere bida'a. 

 

(wasalam) 

 

Amina

Edited by Amina
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The word Shia means sect, which has been condemned by the Holy Quran. The main reason why shias are said kafir is because of their takfir on the sahabas & mother of believers. Than comes the issue of tahrif of Quran which is a disputed topic. This belief which is held by your top classical scholars like Kulyani, Mufeed, Majlisi & many more. To deny the authenticity of the Holy Quran means you make the whole of Islam controversial. & Allah swt knows the best.

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The word Shia means sect, which has been condemned by the Holy Quran. The main reason why shias are said kafir is because of their takfir on the sahabas & mother of believers. Than comes the issue of tahrif of Quran which is a disputed topic. This belief which is held by your top classical scholars like Kulyani, Mufeed, Majlisi & many more. To deny the authenticity of the Holy Quran means you make the whole of Islam controversial. & Allah swt knows the best.

Shia does NOT mean sect. It means follower of a person or a group.
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In this program that I saw we are definitely called kuffar who "changed the tawheed" and this attitude comes from the takfeeri preachers on the Internet.

 

I always wonder what part of Tawheed we ever changed according them? If these people read Tawheed  teached by Ahlulbait [a], they will realize they are wrong.

Edited by Dhulfikar
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(bismillah)

 

(salam) brother Gespato,

 

Only that, since you mentioned it, there are similar unauthenticated so-called ahadeeth in Sunni books in which a young Prophet's  (pbuh) wife tells how she fell asleep and a goat ate a piece of parchment on which some Qur'anic revelation was written down, causing it to be lost forever.

 

These fabricated "ahadeeth" can be found in all sects (or rather, schools of thought) in Islam, and no one believes in them or considers them authentic.

 

My point is, since hundreds of thousands from all over the world are ready and willing to kill, burn and decapitate people in the so-called Islamic khaliphate, I sincerely doubt it is only because someone prefers Imam Ali  (as) over Abu Bakr. That would be too grotesque, so it has to be something else that provokes such rage and bloodthirst in so many young people.

 

And I want to know what it is. 

 

(You might say, as a Shi'a I have the right to know why somebody is so keen on chopping my head off!)

 

Kindest regards,

 

Amina

Edited by Amina
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(salam)

 

 

 

So can anyone please explain what exactly we are accused of?

 

 

 

Too much to list, actually. Just read the post above mine (two posts above) and you'll see what stupidities people spread about Shia Islam without even understanding it.

 

 

What exactly is the difference between the Sunni and the Shi'a tawheed?

 

 

Not really sure, if I'm honest. As far as I am aware, Sunnis believe Allah has human attributes, e.g. he has a body and will be seen on the Day of Judgment. Shia believe that Allah is not confined by time and space, He is everywhere at the same time, omnipresent, all hearing, all seeing, unlike anything or anyone. He is all-knowing, He is eternal.

 

In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful
[shakir 112:1] Say: He, Allah, is One.
[shakir 112:2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.
[shakir 112:3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.
[shakir 112:4] And none is like Him.

 

 

Why are we not just a fifth school of thought beside the 4 major Sunni ones, but are excluded from Islam entirely?

 

 

Sister, no one can exclude you from Islam. Some idiots might do takfir on you and call you kafir even though you've said the Shahada - but they are not Allah and only Allah knows what is in your heart and whether your beliefs are right or wrong. I have always wondered why so many Sunnis think it's necessary to do takfir on Shia, I mean, you'll seldom find a Shia (authority) do the same. My conclusion: If you're afraid of something or you yourself are doubtful of your faith and not sure whether what you believe is right or wrong, the need arises to assure yourself. How better to do it than degrade another madhab? If you're doubtful of your own beliefs then it's much easier to point with your finger at another believe and say "They are wrong, I am right". Human minds work strangely.

 

 

So it definitely is NOT about the successors of the Prophet   (pbuh) only, but

 

 

But mainly. We point out the faults in personalities the Sunnis regard highly and don't shy away from judging them according to their deeds - even if you do so objectively, without insulting, many Sunnis will take it as an insult. But pointing out wrong from right is what our faith demands us to do, so... 

 

 

 

 

 

has to be something else, since tens of millions of Sunnis, many of them intelligent, well-read and educated, are ready to believe it and to consider it a thawab to kill us, and even to be enough for a reason to travel to Shaam and join the IS.  

 

@italics: I doubt that, sister ;) Anyone who thinks that killing another human being (without provocation!), raping women and killing innocents is good and will bring them "thawab" is far from intelligent. Actually, there might be something seriously wrong with them- the problem here lays within them not us. It's happened throughout history, hasn't it? The best of example is Karbala; why did Yazeed order Hussain's (as) murder and why did other "Muslims" join in? Because he had reasons? Yes, one of those reasons: his fear to lose his regime to Hussain (as) (and his hatred for Aale-Muhammad, the same his forefathers had) so he ordered a most horrible sin. And his army: personal greed, money, whatever. Every terrorist today follows in the footsteps of Yazeed and his army. What they do is inexcuseable. Maybe it's fear what makes so called sheikhs do takfir on innocent Shias throughout the world- the desire to hide the truth as have many before them tried.

 

I don't think you'll find any satisfactory answer to your questions, sister. We can find reasons for their intense hatred (though, it's mostly Wahabis/Salafis, isn't it?) but trying to understand it and what they do... it's hard because just look what IS is doing- it's inhuman and at the end, they will be judged for each and every of their deeds in this world.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Noor al-Batul
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،السلام عليكم

gespato (nice name...), how's the chicken?

 

Z5uj2t.jpg

Jokes aside, please don't parrot off what you've read from some place on the internet. Verify it and try to understand it. Otherwise you come across as very insincere. I could go on how some Sunni scholars believed in tahreef and say that it isn't enough to declare takfeer upon someone, but it's an unproductive discussion that doesn't help anyone. There will be mischaracterizations of Sunni beliefs and of Shia beliefs and both will be treated as a monolith.

 

Amina, focusing on why others think your faith is wrong won't help you unless you want to look at the best of their arguments to strengthen your faith in the Truth. And a good portion of the mainstream Sunni clerical establishment take us as Muslims nowadays. The major reason though that some of the laity do not is because ignorance in conjunction with a willingness to remain obstinate in their views and/or a lack of access to a proper source to remove misconceptions (in my opinion, best would be a devout Shii living nearby).

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Only that, since you mentioned it, there are similar unauthenticated so-called ahadeeth in Sunni books in which a young Prophet's  (pbuh) wife tells how she fell asleep and a goat ate a piece of parchment on which some Qur'anic revelation was written down, causing it to be lost forever.

 

 

 

walaykum salam,

 

 

where did you read that she was asleep while the goat ate the manuscripts? & the hadith does not state the verses were only written on those manuscripts. The event took place after the death of the Holy Prophet. The Quran had been compiled in the form of book at that time.

 

 

& the hadith you r saying is fabricated is not really fabricated according to your scholars. It is a muwattir hadith.

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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

I understand all your replies, but my question is still open: What have I done to a, say, young, educated, intelligent and believing young girl in Britain, so that she is ready to leave her family, school and fiends, go to IS, join their khaliphate, marry a "worrior" and hang a kalashnikov on her shoulder, ready to shoot me if I cross her path and she discovers I am a shi'ite?

 

She has been listening to an Internet preacher, who declared me a kafir. But WHY???

 

I am ever closer to go to those sites and listen to them myself, because I truly do not understand why this is happening...

 

And honestly, I do not understand how we shi'a are shrugging it all off, without wanting to know exactly what crimes are we accused of!

 

Salams.


(bismillah)

 

And here we go again: did she or didn't she, what has she said or done fifteen centuries ago - amidst all those goats, gossip and succession stories that we chew over and over again, people are dying and being decapitated - how tired I am to hear about those stories and futile arguments that never end...

 

BUT WHY ARE THEY KILLING US??!!

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Amina
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Sister, we can't answer you this question - you'll have to ask those people, themselves and personally, I doubt it's such a good idea to go near them. And honestly whatever the reasons are, they won't ever explain nor excuse the actions.

 

As to why many Shias shrug it off, well... We are not accused of any crimes, to begin with. Misconceptions are spread about us and obviously, people who don't know anything about Shia and are gullible (intellect doesn't matter here much; though, as a side note: many "psychopaths" etc... are quite intelligent people; what they lack is humanity) will believe whatever they are told. Why they don't investigate themselves, who knows? But is that our fault? Are we obliged to go to every terrorist and try to clarify that his views on us are wrong? Not much use. Those people are ignorant, they don't want to learn anything from us- maybe they are people filled with hatred and let this hatred out by killing innocents. Maybe Shaytan has too tight a grip on them that they are blinded to anything rational - blinded to humanity. You can't make the blind see nor can you make the deaf hear.

 

The main root of the problem are not the laymen who go off into foreign countries to shed innocent blood (they might be offered money to do so, given false promises and it might not even have much to do with religion) but those who manipulate them and instigate them killing innocents. What are their reasons to spread hatred? Wanting to stop a unity? Hiding the truth? Fear? Greed? I don't know and honestly, I don't care much. There might be reasons but they are irrelevant looking the crimes. May Allah punish each and every of these people severely.

 

I understand that you want to know, to some extent, but I don't think it is possible to understand the motivation of such people. If you come across someone who truly wants to learn, then take that opportunity and give them the answers they are seeking. But if you meet people who already have a preconceived opinion about you and your faith and won't listen to you, at all (like IS), don't bother with them.

 

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

But if those who preach hatred and who directly commit those terrible crimes are all psychopaths, as you suggest, then how do they manage to instill such religious fervor and such intense hatred in these youngsters from the West, so that they are willing to abandon everything they loved and cherished hitherto and throw themselves into the fangs of the IS, driven by the sole wish to kill as many Shi'a as possible?

 

As a mother of a teenage girl, I have to know the reasons - not because I am afraid my daughter would suddenly become a takfeeri bride, but because these young people all have parents and families - heartbroken, destroyed and shamed for having a son or a daughter who chose to become lunatic killers of anything that is remotely Shi'a.

 

So what arguments they use to villify us so? What are we to them that they are denying us the life and the very right to breathe? I mean, they are hardly saying: we are psychopaths, so let's kill some Shi'a! They must have something strong to sell, if all those thousands are running to Shaam to decapitate us!!

 

Maybe we should ALL watch some of those videos, just to be informed?

 

Doesn't it bother anyone?

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Amina
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We are Kafir to the concept of Rashidun Caliphs and Sunnies are Kafir to the concept of Velayat.

Being a Kafir is not necessary bad !

In some Duas we say to Ahlul Bait that we are believers to what they believe and we are Kafir to what they are Kafir to.

Kafir is not necessary mean out of Islam however Wahhabies are using this to say Shias are out of Islam.

Twlever Shias are known for what Wahhabies call as Rafdh.


 They must have something strong to sell, if all those thousands are running to Shaam to decapitate us!!

 

The only thing that they have sold is their brains !

We should teach our children to use their brains.

That is it.

 

They do not know their enemy, Jews are their enemies; however they claim Shias are Jews or even worse !!!!!

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I'm not saying that those who instill this hatred are psychopaths, per se. I was just trying to explain something - so called psychopaths, many criminals etc... are educated and quite intelligent, as well, but this won't be of any use if someone has no humanity inside of them or is not capable to distinguish between right and wrong. Besides, we don't really know much about those people who leave their country to join IS, do we? We don't know anything about their life conditions, what their families are like, whether they themselves have some problems. What I'm trying to say: Take Hitler. He used the situation in Germany back then to manipulate the population and quite successfully so. Maybe these 'leaders' do the same with some people- use thei conditions to manipulate them. Many IS terrorists are converts, I believe- maybe they were approached by the wrong people and got brainwashed, who knows? Though, really, if I were a non-Muslim and would encounter Muslims who promote killing innocents, I'd never even dream of converting...

Point is: the human psyche is rather complex. We never know with 100% certainty what's going on inside someone else even if it's a loved one. I can't understand youths from the West joining IS as much as I can't understand a student suddenly going on a school shooting spree and killing other students.

Your questions are valid - I, too, have wondered why it's so hard to "live and let live". But this world does't work like this- people in power would do a lot to gain more power even if it means killing innocents; that's exactly what's happening. Materialistic values, greed, power, money - they are far more important to them than the lives of innocent humans, as sad as that sounds. You can't look for human reasons where there are none.

And honestly? I'm not interested in watching these videos. I'll be informed- so, what? What will I do with that information? Would it make a change for any of these terrorists? Promoting your own beliefs is far more important than to ponder over other's hatred. Showing how beautiful your beliefs are will be of more use and people who are truly interested will listen and understand. If I ever have children, I'd make sure to instill values and morals in them, teachings of the Ahlul-Bayt, to raise them such that they can distinguish between good and bad- at least, that's what I will try doing.

Wa salam.

Edited by Noor al-Batul
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W/s

Due to taqiyyah which is usul al deen of shias ! Many sunnis used to worry of, even if a decent shia meets they used to be cönfused, bcoz of cursing of sahaba and ummuhatul mominat they guess how can shias respect us whereas one of the imam said disaccosiate from our enemies=nasabis ! Shias & sunnis cant fight alongside with others bcoz it again reminds taqiyyah and stabbing from behind of feroz lulu=baba shaja'ad'deen to umar ! Cant marry bcoz of mutah usul al deen and ruling of sodomy with wives ! These all things were hidden but now popped up due to todays media and social networking system, so those sunni guys were brained washed by few fatwas of muftis of their personal interests. And also revenging hadith of last imam, which they have taken as myth imaginary dajjalic etc; and how can he be our imam ! Many things have been confused. This is only my observation and opinion. Shias are not kuffar

J/a.

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(bismillah)

 

(salam) sister,

 

But knowing those arguments against our school of thought would help you be prepared for the discussion, wherever and whenever it occurs - with your future children, with your Sunni neighbours, with the Shi'a friends wavering in their faith, with the wrong accusations in the mass media that need to be answered and refuted - simply everywhere!

 

Wasn't Aba 'Abdillah  (as) ready to die for  just that - to defend and promote the true Islam against evil doers and deviators, who stained and distorted the true faith?

 

So how can it not interest or even not bother me - isn't this the exact time where we need to be like Hussain  (as) and fight the false Islam those lunatics spread?

 

And lure all those youngsters into death and killing by falsifying the truth about Ahlul bayt  (as) and their followers?

 

How can that leave us indifferent, when our sacred personalities are being insulted and their deeds and lives distorted?

 

:excl:  :excl:  :excl:

 

(wasalam)


W/s
Due to taqiyyah which is usul al deen of shias ! Many sunnis used to worry of, even if a decent shia meets they used to be cönfused, bcoz of cursing of sahaba and ummuhatul mominat they guess how can shias respect us whereas one of the imam said disaccosiate from our enemies=nasabis ! Shias & sunnis cant fight alongside with others bcoz it again reminds taqiyyah and stabbing from behind of feroz lulu=baba shaja'ad'deen to umar ! Cant marry bcoz of mutah usul al deen and ruling of sodomy with wives ! These all things were hidden but now popped up due to todays media and social networking system, so those sunni guys were brained washed by few fatwas of muftis of their personal interests. And also revenging hadith of last imam, which they have taken as myth imaginary dajjalic etc; and how can he be our imam ! Many things have been confused. This is only my observation and opinion. Shias are not kuffar
J/a.

 

Salam brother,

 

I must be stupid or something, but I didn't understand what you wanted to say exactly, sorry...

 

Can you simplify it a bit for me?  :no:  :no:  :no:

 

Regards,

 

Amina

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But that's what I said, isn't it? To promote our belief, to show a clear distinction between right and wrong. If you want to know their "arguments" just browse through SC- you will find plenty^^ Maybe that's why I'm not interested in such hateful videos? Because I've already come across many of their arguments. But if you ask me: If you know your madhab well enough, you don't need to read throuh all the arguments of the opponents to be able to answer your kids or other Sunnis ;) The best way to be prepared is to gain as much knowledge about your faith as you can.

And that's what people are already doing: Promoting our beliefs. Trying to clear misconceptions. Actively, so. Those people who want to listen, will listen, and those who don't want to, never will. Imam Hussain did what he had to do and what was right- our 'leaders' today try to do what they can, those fighting IS are risking their lives, giving their lives to do so, but not everyone can go down this path. Each and everyone has to find their own path to do something good for Islam.

And about discussions: Only possible if the ones you're discussing with are open-minded and can do some reflexion. What I have seen of terrorists, I doubt they'll even listen to you - same goes for people who support IS and honestly believe such videos- try discussing with them, it's useless - they have preconceived opinion about us and won't want to believe anything you tell them; I know what I'm talking about. But keep in mind, that most Sunnis are not like that- hateful, that is. Of course, you can try to do something for your community, for the youths living there - that's also something, isn't it? If you think that you can change the view of young people upon Shia Islam, then you should try to do so.

Wa salam.

Edited by Noor al-Batul
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(bismillah)

 

Well, I have just seen two videos on youtube; one is about some Saudi shaykh who is introduced as an expert on ahadeeth about Ahlul bayt (as) and who claims that Al Hussein  (as) didn't intend on revolution at all, but wanted to go back home when his supporters in Kufa failed him, but was prevented to do so and was forced to fight and die. So, no revolution in Karbala according to him.

 

The second video was from a channel called "Revealing Shia" or "Shia revealed", in which a young shaykh reads from Du'a Al Faraj, and calls it "shirk", as the Shi'a have, according to him, started worshipping Ahlul Bayt (as) and who, again according to him, believe that Ali  (as) is the Creator, the Giver or rizq, the One who gives life, the One who takes life, etc. etc.

 

But that argument doesn't surprise me much, as I read (and not only once) here on SC some of us who claimed that Allah te'ala has indeed given Imam Ali (as) all those powers (a'udhu billah) and that he, and not Allah te'ala Himself; are now "ruling the world"...

 

Well, that was my search for reasons why takfeeris call us kuffar so far...

 

Not something for those with week hearts, definitely.

 

(wasalam) 

 

Amina  

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Well, I have just seen two videos on youtube; one is about some Saudi shaykh who is introduced as an expert on ahadeeth about Ahlul bayt (as) and who claims that Al Hussein  (as) didn't intend on revolution at all, but wanted to go back home when his supporters in Kufa failed him, but was prevented to do so and was forced to fight and die. So, no revolution in Karbala according to him.

 

 

Al Hussain (may Allah be pleased with him) was indeed betrayed by the kufans who were in his caravan which was on its way to damascus. If you are really interested in the history of karbala than ponder upon the fact that karbala comes on the way to damascus & NOT kufa. So its confirmed that al Hussain wanted to give his allegiance to yazeed after he saw what happened to muslim bin aqeel. Why would yazeed want to kill al Hussain without knowing what al Hussain wanted? He was 700 miles away from karbala, & if yazeed really had hatred for the family of Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) why did he spare zain ul abideen & umme kulthum & bibi zainab? Bibi zainab spent the rest of her life in damascus do you know that? Why would she stay where the killer of al Hussain lived?

 

Sister the story of karbala was first written by abu mukhanaf lut bin yahya who was a liar.

 

 

The second video was from a channel called "Revealing Shia" or "Shia revealed", in which a young shaykh reads from Du'a Al Faraj, and calls it "shirk", as the Shi'a have, according to him, started worshipping Ahlul Bayt (as) and who, again according to him, believe that Ali  (as) is the Creator, the Giver or rizq, the One who gives life, the One who takes life, etc. etc.

 

 

 

Not just dua al faraj there are many other duas in the shia religion which promote shirk to the highest level.

 

 

But that argument doesn't surprise me much, as I read (and not only once) here on SC some of us who claimed that Allah te'ala has indeed given Imam Ali (as) all those powers (a'udhu billah) and that he, and not Allah te'ala Himself; are now "ruling the world"...

 

 

 

Had Allah swt given Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) such powers he would have never failed on earth. He failed to protect his wife from killed by Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) in an extremely brutal way as they say, he failed to grab fadak from  the confiscators (as they say), he failed to run his khilafa in a peaceful manner, a civil war broke out & thousands died & than he was sadly killed by the own member of his group who rebelled & turned into a khawarji.

 

No call me a nasibi.

Edited by gespato
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Who cares? (Their) sects appeared some 300 years after the Prophet (pbuh). And they go against and ignore many clear Quranic commandments, from ablutions to khums. They don't follow the sunnah either, nor in worship or conduct or war not even during urination. When it comes to innovations they take the world cup with things like nikah jihad and taraweeh. So who cares really whatever the takfiris have to say. If they murder us then still they murder themselves because no one is going to live forever except the shaheed / martyr they make.

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All the claims can be refuted, I guess. If you have questions about something specific, I'd suggest that you maybe open a separate thread for them?

 

 

Well, I have just seen two videos on youtube; one is about some Saudi shaykh who is introduced as an expert on ahadeeth about Ahlul bayt (as) and who claims that Al Hussein  (as) didn't intend on revolution at all, but wanted to go back home when his supporters in Kufa failed him, but was prevented to do so and was forced to fight and die. So, no revolution in Karbala according to him.

 

If you listen to people like gespato, you might get confused (though, any Shia who knows even the basics of his madhab would roll his eyes; by the way, ever looked at a map?) - honestly, how can any Muslim insult Imam Hussain (as) in such a way?  :no: The man who'd "rather die on his feet than live on his knees (as a slave)", giving his bayat to Yazeed- sure  :dry: Anyone who's ever bothered to educate themselves about Karbala knows that the Imam welcomed martyrdom with open arms and happily so; giving bayat to Yazeed was out of question for him, his family and his followers. And I wonder what kind of hadiths this shaykh has used as his sources? Umayyad fabrications? Anyway, no need to wonder about such things; opponents will try to lower the status of the Ahl-ul-Bait wherever they can, obviously.

 

As I mentioned above, you can open new threads for your questions if something really bothers you and you're not able to find answers. Like, about Hussain's (as) revolution movement- there are books written on that, actually I'm reading one myself (and seriously, if anyone has ever read the Imam's (as) speeches etc... when he was on his way to Kufa, they'd never doubt his intentions). A quote I find catching from said book (Imam Husayn's Revolution: An Analytical Review by Yusuf Fadhl): "The Muslims had apparently got used to the un-Islamic rule of the Umayyads as time passed by. Their resistance slackened and some people began adjusting themselves to the new conditions. Hence, the revolutionary spirit of Islam began to disappear gradually from Muslim's lives and thoughts. Therefore, a new stimulant to their souls was necessary to activate their lives and try to restore Islamic conduct to the society." Whether there had been a "real" revolution in the sense we understand today or not doesn't matter, the movement was there, the spirit of revolution was there and is still present till date- which says everything, doesn't it?

 

I'd also recommend "Lahoof - Sighs of Sorrow" regarding the events of Karbala.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Noor al-Batul
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All the claims can be refuted, I guess. If you have questions about something specific, I'd suggest that you maybe open a separate thread for them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As I mentioned above, you can open new threads for your questions if something really bothers you and you're not able to find answers. Like, about Hussain's (as) revolution movement- there are books written on that, actually I'm reading one myself (and seriously, if anyone has ever read the Imam's (as) speeches etc... when he was on his way to Kufa, they'd never doubt his intentions). A quote I find catching from said book (Imam Husayn's Revolution: An Analytical Review by Yusuf Fadhl): "The Muslims had apparently got used to the un-Islamic rule of the Umayyads as time passed by. Their resistance slackened and some people began adjusting themselves to the new conditions. Hence, the revolutionary spirit of Islam began to disappear gradually from Muslim's lives and thoughts. Therefore, a new stimulant to their souls was necessary to activate their lives and try to restore Islamic conduct to the society." Whether there had been a real revolution or not doesn't matter, the movement was there, the spirit of revolution was there and is still present till date.

 

 

 

 

Everything can be refuted even Islam. Its just about the perception. That is why atheists exist.

 

 

If you listen to people like gespato, you might get confused (though, any Shia who knows even the basics of his madhab would roll his eyes; by the way, ever looked at a map?) - honestly, how can any Muslim insult Imam Hussain (as) in such a way?  :no: The man who said he'd "rather die on his feet than live on his knees", giving his bayat to Yazeed- sure  :dry: And I wonder what kind of hadiths this shaykh has used as his sources? Umayyad fabrications? Anyway, no need to wonder about such things; opponents will try to lower the status of the Ahl-ul-Bait wherever they can, obviously.

 

 

 

There is a narration recorded from your Imam Baqir by many historians . I have read it in " spirit of Islam" by Justice Ameer Ali. The narration states that Imam Baqir said that Hussain presented three condition to Ibn saad during his meeting with him . One of Hussain Ra proposal was that "let me go to yazid and let me give my hand in his hand ( pledge of allegiance) and lets see what he decides then". 

So if it was a battle of Haq and Batil and not a political dispute then why Hussain Ra gave that option and why did he decide to step back from the "noble" cause of bringing an end to the "unjust" rule of yazeed?

 

& one can easily point the double standards of your so called "intellect" by asking if such narrations can be fabrications of ummayads why cant "maqtal e hussain" (written by abu mukhanaf) be a fabrication? any ideas?

 

 

You dont take your wives & childrens to revolution & most of all you dont ride on camels when you go to a revolution or a war. Historians have confirmed that al Hussain's caravan was on camels NOT horses. All the sahabas in Makkah & Madina warned Hussain not to go kufa.

 

 

The battle took place in karbala which comes in the way from makkah to damascus & NOT Kufa , So why was Hussain Ra going towards damascus? Please remove your emotions while debating on history.  Maqtal e Hussain is the most biased book on karbala , full of myths, fairy tails and contradictions.Especially the sermons of Hussain Ra, like Ibn saad would sit silent and allow Al Hussain to deliver sermons in the battle field.

Edited by gespato
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 All the sahabas in Makkah & Madina warned Hussain not to go kufa.

 

Instead of helping son of Muhammad PBUH against corruption they advised him not to go to Kufa ! how brave and logical !! Logic of Jew Yazid !!!

Those so called Muslims, should be ashamed and they are ashamed.

Edited by maes
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@gespato, is there any praise worthy hadiths about your yazeed r.h in sahih'een ! But iam aware there are bunch of hadiths in praise of Hussain r.a on both sides, which nobody even kuffar dont denies. Dont bring the hadith of awwal jaish al gazwa'tul kustuntunya, he was enjoyin with his wife & slaves in drunked condition reciting unislamic poetries ! while mujahideens were struggle there, and it was not awwal'een gazwa. Dont try to make one of a prince of paradise a worldly lay man like yazeed, theres a diffèrece of tabaq & 7th sky between them. And fear Allah if you feels even animals are loyal towards there masters, why dont one be loyal to our great master Muhammad s.a.w who said I'am from Hussain and Hussain is from Me !

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Instead of helping son of Muhammad PBUH against corruption they advised him not to go to Kufa ! how brave and logical !! Logic of Jew Yazid !!!

Those so called Muslims, should be ashamed and they are ashamed.

 

 & that includes Abdullah Ibn Jaffar and Abdullah Ibn Abass Ra & also Mohammad ibn al hanafiyya (son of Ali)... poor u

 

 

@gespato, is there any praise worthy hadiths about your yazeed r.h in sahih'een ! But iam aware there are bunch of hadiths in praise of Hussain r.a on both sides, which nobody even kuffar dont denies. Dont bring the hadith of awwal jaish al gazwa'tul kustuntunya, he was enjoyin with his wife & slaves in drunked condition reciting unislamic poetries ! while mujahideens were struggle there, and it was not awwal'een gazwa. Dont try to make one of a prince of paradise a worldly lay man like yazeed, theres a diffèrece of tabaq & 7th sky between them. And fear Allah if you feels even animals are loyal towards there masters, why dont one be loyal to our great master Muhammad s.a.w who said I'am from Hussain and Hussain is from Me !

 

 

I know you want to derail the topic by bringing in such questions. We are discussing the event of karbala, open your eyes.

 

 

 

I'm not a fan of Yazid, but I must say that the so called history of Islam is corrupted by liars and kaddabs. Hypocrites, kuffar, the enemies of Islam made up stories and spread them. All they sought was division of Muslims and weakening of the centre of Islam i.e Khilafah. Or perhaps they wanted political power or wealth through these efforts. It's very much like journalism now a days. Rumours become breaking news. It's very difficult if not impossible to tell the truth from the falsehood. Also, if you don't like a person rather hate him, you have to do his character assassination. And it's so shameful, there's so much dirty character assassination been done on part of those who hate Yazid. Was Yazid worse than Abu Jahl or Abu Lahb? Do you see any such narrations that Abu Jahl had sex with camels, drunk with women had sex with them or Abu Lahb was fond of boys,Only a satanic dirty mind can fabricate such filthy accusations upon a man who was at least Muslim (Yazid). You may hate Yazid because he killed your imam (for the sake of argument), ok now leave him alone, let Allah decide this matter, why ruin your aakhirah? Why every year, the whole year round you curse him, dirty your tongue, filthy your mind?

 

 

even the Christians don't accuse the so called murderers or enemies of their god jesus of being fond of boys or animals, Astaghfirullah. Fear Allah, stop following shayateen.

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"Maqtals" are not the only source for the history of Karbala, brother. And this has nothing to do with emotions- Hussain (as) never intended to give bayat to Yazeed; he refused it plainly on the battlefield when offered and that's a fact. He never intended to do so, as you claim, he made his intentions clear in Medina (and to the governor who wanted him to pledge allegiance to Yazeed) and he made it clear when going for Mekka and later, to Kufa (which they had been on the way to though, their way was blocked and they were pushed toward Karbala- never thought that this would be a disputable angle). You can refuse to believe it, that's not my problem. As for his sisters and wife and children: if this all was about politics, I doubt they would have accompanied him. But they did and we have to thank them that today, we know what transpired in Karbala and afterward.

 

As for your narration from Imam Baqir (as) - source, chain and rating, please. Just because a narration is attributed to an Imam doesn't mean it's true especially if it contradicts many others (authentic ones).

 

Anyway, we're off-topic. @sister Amina: Were the answers in this thread to any help of you?

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 & that includes Abdullah Ibn Jaffar and Abdullah Ibn Abass Ra & also Mohammad ibn al hanafiyya (son of Ali)... poor u

 

 

 

 

I know you want to derail the topic by bringing in such questions. We are discussing the event of karbala, open your eyes.

[ u guessed wrong i dont wanna derail topic but u r doing so read the title of topic whatever, its better u open ur mind !

 

 

I'm not a fan of Yazid,[yeah its seems clearly] but I must say that the so called history of Islam is corrupted by liars and kaddabs. Hypocrites, kuffar, the enemies of Islam made up stories and spread them. All they sought was division of Muslims and weakening of the centre of Islam i.e Khilafah.[khilafa ofcourse] Or perhaps they wanted political power or wealth through these efforts. It's very much like journalism now a days. Rumours become breaking news. It's very difficult if not impossible to tell the truth from the falsehood. [i agree]Also, if you don't like a person rather hate him, you have to do his character assassination. And it's so shameful, there's so much dirty character assassination been done on part of those who hate Yazid. Was Yazid worse than Abu Jahl or Abu Lahb? Do you see any such narrations that Abu Jahl had sex with camels, drunk with women had sex with them or Abu Lahb was fond of boys,[what i asked u for and what you are saying, forget abu lahab hadiths about ur yazeed whom u dont like !] Only a satanic dirty mind can fabricate such filthy accusations upon a man who was at least Muslim (Yazid).[according to our 4 sunni imams he was fasiq murtad so ask ur neo petro-shaikhs first] of You may hate Yazid because he killed your!!!imam [your or our Hussain r.a](for the sake of argument), ok now leave him alone, let Allah decide this matter, why ruin your aakhirah?[not your say our aakhirah dont be like kufis]! Why every year, the whole year round you curse him, dirty your tongue, filthy your mind?

I dont used to curse whom Allah has accursed ! Iam sunni not shia for ur info, mind ur language plz ! It shows who is filthy.

 

even the Christians don't accuse the so called murderers or enemies of their god jesus of being fond of boys or animals, Astaghfirullah. Fear Allah, stop following shayateen.

astaqfirullah so u r followhng christians ! MaazAllah fear Allah come towards islam then do dawah, satanic argument !

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The word Shia means sect, which has been condemned by the Holy Quran. The main reason why shias are said kafir is because of their takfir on the sahabas & mother of believers. Than comes the issue of tahrif of Quran which is a disputed topic. This belief which is held by your top classical scholars like Kulyani, Mufeed, Majlisi & many more. To deny the authenticity of the Holy Quran means you make the whole of Islam controversial. & Allah swt knows the best.

 

This is silly. The word Shi`a is also mentioned positively in several places (such as 37:83, the Shi`a of Ibrahim). As for cursing the sahaba, that depends on what your definition of sahabi is. Sunnis believe that a sahabi is simply one who has been in the presence of the Prophet and died a Muslim. Our criteria for companionship is outlined in 48:29, which necessitates being forceful against disbelievers and merciful towards believers. The crimes of those you revere involve rape, burning people alive, usurping wealth and property, and misusing Islam for political purposes. As for tahreef, it is opposed almost unanimously by our modern scholarship, as well as classical scholars like Saduq, Tusi, and Murtada. Mufeed's opinion on tahreef is disputed, because the authorship of Masa'il as-Sarawiyya is disputed. However, he says in Awa'il al-Maqalat that the majority of Shi`a did not uphold tahreef.

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Gestapo

How and when did Imam Hussayn(as) die,when karbala is a myth.What do your narrations say?

And how could people like Mukhtar ath-Thaqafi and some others revolt against the Ummayad dynastie (and reportedly they rose up in revenge for the Imam)which you can find in different sources,if Karbala is a myth?

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The Quran is clear. Unjust will go to hell, the good will go to heaven. Those who obey God and his Messenger are the true believers, those who disobey God and his Messenger are not. True belief comes out of believing in the worthiness of goodness and the pleasure of Allah, that is why God knows believers will be forgiven, because when they do evil, they repent from it at close hand and don't let their evil make their faith disappear. This is repeated through out Quran,  for true faith in the signs of God is only to those who hearts are awe struck by the majesty of God, and who when reach increase in remembrance in signs of God, truly prostate to Allah.

 

True submission to God means you follow the light inwardly and not just outward acts, let alone being a murderer. 

 

Outward acceptance of Islam means nothing except that we deal with people by their outward acceptance in the Shariah.  But a person who is clearly unjust like Yazeed, it's obvious he has no faith in Allah's signs and glory. 

 

Suratal Lahab is a manifestation of how Allah specifically hates the leaders of the enemies of his chosen ones.  Despite expanding his compassion and mercy through his name, they perished as they failed to respect the sanctity of his names, and act against his expansive grace mercy and blessings. They opposed his guides and nothing they did would avail them to the least.

 

Government was never meant to be for anyone or a monarchy. It was meant for those who are most honorable, just, knowledgeable and wise among humans. 

 

Ahlulbayt being the chosen ones who had authority of God were most fit for government but the Quranic verses in general can be interpreted that at the very least those with knowledge and wisdom should rule, and justice being the goal, should not be a sinner as Quran has forbid obedience to the sinners or mischief makers or the wasteful. 

 

Yazeed was part of the Taghut.


Those who understand the justice the Quran came with and was aimed at establishing, they know what Imam Hussain rose for and stood for. 

 

Those blind to the beauty of the Quran are naturally blind to the beauty of path of Hussain (the beautiful one), such are those blind to the beautiful names of God and path of God, as Allah says "God commands towards justice and forbids evil and indecency" and after emphasizing to him belong the beautiful names, "And from whom we created are a people who guide by the truth and thereby yadeloon (do justice, spread justice, set things justly)".

 

Allah is Justice. Those who hate justice and those who rise up for it and kill them, are the murderers of Prophets, and it's as if they killed all Prophets.

 

 

 

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This is silly. The word Shi`a is also mentioned positively in several places (such as 37:83, the Shi`a of Ibrahim). 

 

Actually its not. 37:83 does not mention the word shia positively nor does it take it negatively. Its ur silly way of explaining things as usual. 

 

37:83 says And indeed, among his(Noah's) kind was Abraham.

 

 

Its referring to Abraham alone & not the shia of ibrahim.

 

 

What he is referring to the verses which condemn the shia in a different sense just as these verses state:

 

 

6_159.png

 

 

Surely those who divide the religion into sects and identify themselves as a sect, O Muhammad, you have nothing to do with them. Their case will be called to account by Allah Himself, He will inform them as to what they did.

 

 

Ur identity is shia i.e sect so the verse is definitely condemning u guys.

 

Our criteria for companionship is outlined in 48:29, which necessitates being forceful against disbelievers and merciful towards believers. The crimes of those you revere involve rape, burning people alive, usurping wealth and property, and misusing Islam for political purposes. 

 

 

 

again a silly argument on which the viewers can laughs all day. Lets analyse ur statement shall we?

 

what makes man a disbeliever? anyone who rejects the orders of Allah swt & the Prophet (& ur imams) is indeed a disbeliever.

 

 

Khalid bin waleed raped women according to u rafidha, & ur first imam & his loyal companions just watched. They were never forceful against Khalid. 

 

Abu Bakr confiscates fadak from fatima & still no response from Ali & his companions.

 

Umar & Uthman  misused islam for polictical reasons according to u guys & still Ali & his companions witnessed such tragedy & remained silent instead of being forceful.

 

Umar threatens to burn the house of Fatima & kills Mohsin the unborn child & injures fatima badly & Ali failed to protect his wife.

 

 

So i guess niether Ali nor his shia fulfill the criteria of being a companion according to 48:29. #sad

 

 

As for tahreef, it is opposed almost unanimously by our modern scholarship,

 

 

 

Opposed under the influence of taqiyyah & nothing else. Its is the core belief of the tashayyu that the Quran which the Qaim will bring along with himself is different from the one they have. Please dont be afraid in telling the truth, this is a twelver shia forum.

 

 

 

 

as well as classical scholars like Saduq, Tusi, and Murtada. 

 

 

 

 

U want me to quote the names of the 30 classical shia scholars who believed in tahrif to put one the heat?

 

 

Mufeed's opinion on tahreef is disputed, because the authorship of Masa'il as-Sarawiyya is disputed. However, he says in Awa'il al-Maqalat that the majority of Shi`a did not uphold tahreef.

 

 

 

*Sigh* who says its disputed? ur modern scholars?

 

 

As for awail al maqalat can u translate the highlighted part of the page below?

 

 

 

tahreef-27.jpg

Edited by Invoker
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To know what Islam is and what separating from the religion is, we should think about Bani-Israel.

 

Bani-Israel were sent Musa and Harun initially. Then following them were a succession of Messengers. 

 

Consequently, we see those who followed each Messenger, were believers, and were of the one cause of God and his Messengers. They were those who truly were followers of Musa. 

 

The same is true of a leader appointed by God. For example, Talut. Allah wanted to test those who were truly of Talut and those who were not. He tested them with a river. Those who followed Talut and were of Talut, were on the path of submission to God and were believers per Quran. The majority of them drank from it and were not of the believers. But the minority didn't separate from the religion of God, it was the majority that did.

 

The Quran emphasizes "Talut and those with him" "God tests you with a river, so who drinks of it is from me and those who don't drink are not from me". Naturally those not of Talut, were not of Musa as well.

 

Consequently, obeying the 12 rightly guided successors of the Rasool, and sticking to their Sunnah, is what is sticking to path of God and religion of God. 

 

The rope of God is always joined with a rope from humans "except by a rope from God and a rope from humans". 

 

The Prophet told us he is leaving us two weighty things, Quran and his family. Those who don't hold on to Quran and his family, are separating from the light brought down and true religion. 

 

Ahlulbayt are even in Salah, to the extent that without recognizing the family of Mohammad, one is heedless in their Salah and their Salah is incomplete, just as part of Salah was recognizing the chosen ones in the past. Those who rejected Isa for example cannot be keepers of the connection, because accepting the chosen representatives of God is part of the connection, that is why the family of Mohammad are in Salah.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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Actually its not. 37:83 does not mention the word shia positively nor does it take it negatively. Its ur silly way of explaining things as usual. 

 

37:83 says And indeed, among his(Noah's) kind was Abraham.

 
Wa-inna min sheeAAatihi la-ibraheem, means literally That "Abraham was a follower of Noah" or " "And most surely Abraham was among the Shi’a of him (i.e., Noah)
 

 

Transliteration

Wa-inna min sheeAAatihi la-ibraheem
Sahih International
And indeed, among his kind was Abraham,
Muhsin Khan
And, verily, among those who followed his [Nuh's (Noah)] way (Islamic Monotheism) was Ibrahim (Abraham).
Pickthall
And lo! of his persuasion verily was Abraham
Yusuf Ali
Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.
Shakir
And most surely Ibrahim followed his way.
Dr. Ghali
And surely of his sect indeed was Ibrahim (Abraham)

 

Ibn Kathir:

(And verily, among those who followed his ways was Ibrahim.) means, he was one of the followers of his religion. Mujahid said, "He was following his path and his way.''

 

He was the follower of Noah. Shia't of Noah.

 

 

Surely those who divide the religion into sects and identify themselves as a sect, O Muhammad, you have nothing to do with them. Their case will be called to account by Allah Himself, He will inform them as to what they did.

 

 

Ur identity is shia i.e sect so the verse is definitely condemning u guys.

 

 

That is just your wishful thinking, but your scholars refer that to the sects of Islam, and Ahlul sunnah wal jamaaha is one of the sect. 

 

 

 

divide the religion into sects and identify themselves as a sect,

No. Inna allatheena farraqoo deenahumwakanoo shiyaAAan, which means they they divided their religion and became sects.  Its funny from all the translations you just suddenly pick Farook Malik translation to please your mentality. 

Edited by Dhulfikar
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