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Mimz93

Battle Of Looking Into Shiism

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Hello,

I am a sunni Muslim and I have started to research more and more about Shiism due to my partner being a shia Muslim. I have found that I believe many things but lately have been having my friends warn me about continuing my relationship with a shia Muslim. Why is it that so many sunni people despise shias ? They keep saying things like they are like a cult and to stay away from Shiism. It saddens me to have Muslims saying this about other Muslims. I am so confused on what to do and which path to take. There are so many differences between sunni and Shia that it is more challenging for me to know what to do

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We're all alone in the end, my friend.

 

Everyone's path is a customized one, a collection of what they know and experience.  Yours will be a unique one, just like everyone else's here.  Use your intellect and heart, and determine what is right for you.  I would go for whatever gives you the most peace of mind, in the true, authentic sense. 

 

You might worry how the outward expressions will be seen by others, but internal belief is your own private sanctuary that nobody else can enter. 

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Don't listen to a what they say follow the truth in your heart inshallah, seek guidance from us. We are here to help you and always will be don't listen to people.. follow what is going to make you closer with God.

May God bless you and inshallah guide you.

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Hello,

I am a sunni Muslim and I have started to research more and more about Shiism due to my partner being a shia Muslim. I have found that I believe many things but lately have been having my friends warn me about continuing my relationship with a shia Muslim. Why is it that so many sunni people despise shias ? They keep saying things like they are like a cult and to stay away from Shiism. It saddens me to have Muslims saying this about other Muslims. I am so confused on what to do and which path to take. There are so many differences between sunni and Shia that it is more challenging for me to know what to do

 

Peace be with you,

 

I advise you to engage in unbiased research and learn from all sides in order to make an informed decision. It may be confusing and you may also be wondering where to start. I advise you to reflect on the most important concept in Islam - the concept of Tawheed.

 

Here are some cross-comparisons i made in my own journey to find the truth:

 

Bukhari is from our brothers and sisters in the ahle sunnah. Al Kafi is from the Shia school, though Al Kafi's hadiths must each be individually scrutinised and not considered a 'sahih'.

 

Shias and Sunnis differ on their concept of Allah swt. As you can see , this difference has arisen from who we take our hadiths from,and who we believe preserved his Sunnah,

 

 

Contention one: Can we see Allah swt, comprehend him or limit him in our knowledge?

 

Bukhari

9.530:

The Prophet said, "You will definitely see your Lord with your own eyes."

9.531:

Allah’s Apostle came out to us on the night of the full moon and said, "You will see your Lord on the Day of Resurrection as you see this (full moon) and you will have no difficulty in seeing Him."

 

Al Kafi

H 261, Ch. 9, h 10- Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

"I asked Imam abul Hassan al-Rida (a.s.), about Allah if He can be described (defined in words). The Imam (a.s.) said, "Have you not read the Quran?" I replied, "Yes, I do read the Quran." He then said, "Have you not read the words of Allah, the Most High, "No mortal eyes can see Him, but He can see all eyes. He is All-kind and All-aware." (6:103) I replied, "Yes, I have read them." The Imam (a.s.) said, "Do they know the meaning of the eyes?" I replied, "Yes, they do." The Imam (a.s.) said, "What is it?" I replied, " It means seeing with the eyes." Then the Imam said, the Awham(mentioned above) of the heart is far greater comprehensive in knowledge than eye-witnessing. It is not able to comprehend Him but He comprehends all things.

 

(One paragraph taken from the hadith) H 253, Ch. 9, h 2  Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "How can a person who brought such messages to all creatures and told them

that he has brought such messages from Allah and called them to Allah by His commands and said, "The eyes can not comprehend Him." (6:103) "They can not limit Him through their knowledge." (20:110) "There is nothing similar to Him." (42:11), then he would say, "I saw Him with my own eyes? I did limit Him in my knowledge and that He is similar to a man? Should you not be ashamed of yourselves? Even the atheist have not said that the Prophet first brought one thing from Allah and then announced from Him other things contrary to the first."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Contention two- Does Allah change states, or undergo change?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

Al Kafi

H 313, Ch. 16, h 4 – Graded Sahih by Alama Majlisi

The Imam said, "There is nothing in the universe, but that is subject to annihilation, alteration, change, decay, transition from one color to another, from one shape to another and from one quality to another. They increase, decrease and change from decrease to increase, except He, Who is the Lord of the worlds. He alone is eternal and in one state. He is the first, before every thing and the last eternally. His attributes and names do not change as they do in the case of others. A man at one time is dust, at other time flesh and blood, then turns into decaying bones and finally becomes dust. A piece of date  at one time is raw, at another time ripe, mature and then it dries up. With every change, the names and attributes also change. Allah, the Majestic, the Glorious is different from all such things."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Contention three: Does Allah swt have a form?

 

Bukhari:

"...What keeps you here when all the people have gone?' They will say, 'We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship,' and now we are waiting for our Lord.' Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation..."

 

 

Al Kafi:
Graded Muwathaq

He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: I heard Hisham b. al-Hakam narrate from you that Allah has a body, supported by light, His recognition is necessary and He bestows this [knowledge] upon whom He wills from the creation. So he عليه السلام said: Glorified be He, whom no one knows how He is except Himself. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. He cannot be limited, nor can He be felt, nor can He be moved, nor can He be comprehended [by sight, nor by] the senses, nor can He be contained in anything, nor does He have a body, nor does He have a form, nor a figure, nor a confine. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 278)

 

 

 

 

Contention : Does Allah swt move position?

 

Bukhari:

1145( Abu Hurairah)

“The Lord (Allah swt) descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

 

Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih by alama majlisi

 ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.

He said: ‘May Allāh curse (la`na) those who distort the words from its place, by Allāh, the Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I conclude with the following excerpt of a hadith:

 

He said: A man came to Abu’l Hasan ar-Rida عليه السلام from beyond the Balkh river and said: I will ask you a question, if your answer to me is the same as that which is with me [i will accept your cause]. So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Ask whatever you wish. So he said: Inform me about your Lord, when did He come into being? And how is His state? And upon what thing does He rely? So Abu’l Hasan عليه السلام said: Allah تبارك وتعالى was there before there was a “there”, and He was being before there was a “how”, and His reliance is upon His power. So the man rose to him and kissed his head, and said: I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and that `Ali is the deputy of the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and the succeeding upholder of what the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله established, and that you are the righteous Imams and the successors after them. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 233) Graded SAHIH by Alama Majlisi

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Tawheed it is sad you use hadiths from the Imams to discredit words of the Prophet. There is nothing with with hadiths you quoted from the Prophet. Also the distortion that God descends is that what is meant by God's descending is Angelic presence in the heart. And this is not just on Angel, but many Angels in different places and locations. Imam Retha was discussing how they distorted the meaning. We have another hadith that regarding that  (God descends every night), Imam Jewad says you should know God's descent is not like the descent of his creatures, and that he is not closer to one place rather another. 

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Tawheed it is sad you use hadiths from the Imams to discredit words of the Prophet. There is nothing with with hadiths you quoted from the Prophet. Also the distortion that God descends is that what is meant by God's descending is Angelic presence in the heart. And this is not just on Angel, but many Angels in different places and locations. Imam Retha was discussing how they distorted the meaning. We have another hadith that regarding that  (God descends every night), Imam Jewad says you should know God's descent is not like the descent of his creatures, and that he is not closer to one place rather another. 

 

Dear brother, peace be with you,

 

It is the ijma in the shia school of thought that:

 

1. We will never be able to see Allah swt literally, in the sense we see him with our own two eyes.

2. Allah swt has no form, no confine, no shape

3. Allah swt does not change form or shape

4. He does not descend or ascend in the literal sense, even if you add the clause 'descending in a way he see's fit'. It is not a literal ascension as our brothers in the ahle sunnah believe.

 

This is the Ijma , fortified by sahih hadiths, scholars, and the like.

 

This is the first and foremost in importance with regards to the pillars of islam- Tawheed, and no-one ought to distort it.

 

EDIT: Just to add the last hadith was a hadith from Muhammed pbuh. In addition, the Ahlulbayt a.s are the preservers of his Sunnah and their knowledge is the knowledge of the Sunnah and the true teachings of Islam. Muhammed pbuh left the Quran and the Ahlulbayt a.s

Edited by Tawheed313

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Dear brother, peace be with you,

 

It is the ijma in the shia school of thought that:

 

1. We will never be able to see Allah swt literally, in the sense we see him with our own two eyes.

2. Allah swt has no form, no confine, no shape

3. Allah swt does not change form or shape

4. He does not descend or ascend in the literal sense, even if you add the clause 'descending in a way he see's fit'. It is not a literal ascension as our brothers in the ahle sunnah believe.

 

This is the Ijma , fortified by sahih hadiths, scholars, and the like.

 

This is the first and foremost in importance with regards to the pillars of islam- Tawheed, and no-one ought to distort it.

 

EDIT: Just to add the last hadith was a hadith from Muhammed pbuh. In addition, the Ahlulbayt a.s are the preservers of his Sunnah and their knowledge is the knowledge of the Sunnah and the true teachings of Islam. Muhammed pbuh left the Quran and the Ahlulbayt a.s

Salam I agree with all the points, but the hadiths you posted don't contradict it. It's discussing his "Signs". The highest signs are so closely related to God's essence, that Imams said "till the eyes of our hearts penetrate the veils of light and reach the source of grandeur". Here there is only truth of Allah, although Allah is above being seen, cannot be comprehended, and doesn't have a form, the Signs here is so linked to his essence, that the Imams stated "it's the source of grandeur".

 

Remember it's Imam Ali who said "O who pointed/guided to his essence by his essence"

 

We have to understand, the day of judgement according to Quran is when Allah will come out. Still some people will be veiled from their lord on that day.

 

His Shin is mentioned in Quran, but is a metaphor. Allah will unveil his shin, but this isn't literally.

 

Also Sunnis don't take that literally.

 

It's wahabis that do. The only thing Sunnis miss in Tawheed is they think Allah willy be fully seen on the day of judgement when Allah is above comprehension, sights, and imagination.

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Hello,

I am a sunni Muslim and I have started to research more and more about Shiism due to my partner being a shia Muslim. I have found that I believe many things but lately have been having my friends warn me about continuing my relationship with a shia Muslim. Why is it that so many sunni people despise shias ? They keep saying things like they are like a cult and to stay away from Shiism. It saddens me to have Muslims saying this about other Muslims. I am so confused on what to do and which path to take. There are so many differences between sunni and Shia that it is more challenging for me to know what to do

 

Salam Sister,

 

The main reason of apprehension from Sunni's against the Shia, is not in fiqh or minor items of the religion, but it is in Usul of Deen. In the perspective of the Sunni's, Shiaism has an additional element of the belief of 12 divinely appointed Imams in their Usul of Deen. This causes the Sunni's to see the Shia as having added to the original fabric of the religion and that is what makes them uncomfortable. In their view, Shiaism is a deviation. Their main argument obviously, is that their is no direct and explicit mention of the concept of 12 divinely appointed Imams anywhere in the Quran which would signify it as an Usul of Deen.

 

Hope this helps.

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Reflection of God's verses can go a long way:

 

 
 
Say: No wage do I ask for it except the love of (my) near relatives.
Verily God chose Adam and Nuh and the family of Ibrahim and the family of Imran above the worlds.
O Nuh verily he is not of your family, verily his conduct is other then righteous.
Say: No wage do I ask for it except that who wants to, to take a path to his Lord.
Say: Whatever wage I asked of you it is for yourselves, verily my wage is with God.
These are they whom God guided therefore (Mohammad) follow their guidance. Say: No wage do I ask for it that it is only a reminder/remembrance to the nations/worlds. 
Or do you ask them a wage, then verily the wage of your Lord is better and he is the best of those who provide sustenance. And verily you call them to a straight path.
And you do not ask them a wage for it except that it be a remembrance/reminder to the worlds.
God only desires to keep the uncleanness away from you O people of the household and purifies you a thorough purification.
How does he have authority over us when we have more right to authority and has not been given abundance in wealth? Verily God has chosen him above you, and made him superior in knowledge and physique, and God gives his authority to whom he pleases, and God is encompassing with his grace, knowledgeable. 
Then we inherited the book to those whom we chosen of our servants
Obey God and obey the Messenger and those who possess the authority from you
Therefore ask the family of the reminder if you do not know
Peace be upon the family of Yaseen
Say: If you love God, then follow me, God will love you and forgive your sins.
Or do the envy the people for what God has given them out of his grace? Then verily we gave the family of Ibrahim the book and the wisdom, and we gave them a great authority.
And on the day we will call from every a people a witness from themselves
And on the day we will call every human with it's Imam
And we made them Imams who guide by our command
So guard (with regards to your duty to) God and obey me. Verily God is my god and your god so worship him, this is a straight path.
So follow me, verily this is a straight path.
Verily we believed in the Lord of the world. The Lord of Musa and Harun.
You two and those who follow you both will be the victorious
Peace be upon the servants that God has chosen
And from who we have a created are a people who guide by the truth and by it do justice

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Proof?

 

No where in the translated verses is mentioned "oh those who have believed (mumineen), believe in Allah SWT, the Prophet (pbuh), the Imams, the angels, the books and etc...."

Edited by islam_mercy

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What's your point?

 

The point is we are on a thread of someone looking into Shiaism and your post says that reflecting in the verses of the Quran go a long way. I assumed you are implying that reading those verses one can understand Imamate and Shiaism and I was trying to clarify that you can't. Correct me if I misunderstood anything.

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You can sit down and read the Quran and maybe derive many many things (just as some other sects do that they even go as far as contesting the fact that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last Prophet and they bring evidences from the Quran!!), but as long as there is no explicit mention of a concept it is a pretty risky and suspicious thing to derive a piece of Usul of Deen!

 

Me and you had this discussion before, our conclusion was that it is acceptable to have Hadiths for stating the details and descriptions of major concepts presented in the Quran, but there must be an explicit mention of the concept itself in the Quran. There are many hadith's about the name and number of the Imams, but no mention of the requirement for their belief in the Quran.

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So now you are just stating the verses I posted don't prove the concept. But it not stating "and believe in the Imams" doesn't show that. 

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. There are several instances in the Quran which Allah SWT specifically states what to believe in and Imamate is never mentioned.

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Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. There are several instances in the Quran which Allah SWT specifically states what to believe in and Imamate is never mentioned.

The most repeated thing to believe in Quran is in Ayatallah. And Imams count as Ayatallah. 

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The most repeated thing to believe in Quran is in Ayatallah. And Imams count as Ayatallah. 

 

First of all, now your making personal judgments about 12 Imams being Ayat of Allah. The problem is there is no such concept (of 12 divinely appointed Imams) to begin with in the Quran. Hence you cannot connect to a concept that does not exist. Second of all, let's accept that they are Ayat of Allah, so then what? How do you connect that to the fact that they are 12 of them, that you must obey them, they are divinely appointed and etc...

 

If you can bring a verse as clear s the one below which has Imamate in it, then you have proven Imamate and the fact that it is part of the Usul of Deen.

 

4_136.png

 

 
Sahih International
O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.
Edited by islam_mercy

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(Salam)

 

I really liked the post by Magma. I thought it was unbiased and well-written, as well as polite in nature, Mash'Allah.

 

 

Let's try to keep the thread a little more gentle please; the dear sister is looking for some guidance, not to witness a keyboard battle between member's.

 

Let's offer her some support and be sensitive to her situation, and congratulations on your new marriage, sister :)

 

Insha'Allah,

 

(Wasalam) AB313

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What is the arguments you are aware of Shiism from Quran and Sunnah?

Arguments? do you mean the differences i am aware of?

 

Don't listen to a what they say follow the truth in your heart inshallah, seek guidance from us. We are here to help you and always will be don't listen to people.. follow what is going to make you closer with God.

May God bless you and inshallah guide you.

They are like parrots, they repeat what they hear. Ignore them and keep learning.

 

Yes i know this is true, but you see it is very hard coming from a sunni background and having everyone, and also online research and info be so negative towards it..saying things like shia belief has a lot of fabrication and what not, i just want to be on the right path and inshallah Allah swt will guide me to it.

 

Salam Sister,

 

The main reason of apprehension from Sunni's against the Shia, is not in fiqh or minor items of the religion, but it is in Usul of Deen. In the perspective of the Sunni's, Shiaism has an additional element of the belief of 12 divinely appointed Imams in their Usul of Deen. This causes the Sunni's to see the Shia as having added to the original fabric of the religion and that is what makes them uncomfortable. In their view, Shiaism is a deviation. Their main argument obviously, is that their is no direct and explicit mention of the concept of 12 divinely appointed Imams anywhere in the Quran which would signify it as an Usul of Deen.

 

Hope this helps.

Thank you for that. About the 12 imams, is it not true that our prophets before Muhammad pbuh had 12 'followers'.. 12 disciples, 12 apostles etc... why is it so hard for Sunni people to believe that the last prophet, the best of all creation could have 12 imams to succeed him?

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Arguments? do you mean the differences i am aware of?

Salam

 

I mean what are you aware of what shia say are proofs for Imammate? What hadiths, what verses, what they say regarding the verses.

 

There is no rush take your time in this research.

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"Thank you for that. About the 12 imams, is it not true that our prophets before Muhammad pbuh had 12 'followers'.. 12 disciples, 12 apostles etc... why is it so hard for Sunni people to believe that the last prophet, the best of all creation could have 12 imams to succeed him?"

 

Salam Sister,

 

why is it not that the 12 Imams are not mentioned in the Quran? How come they are not even mentioned as a subject with then relying on hadith for the details?

 

I don't think Sunni's would knowingly deny such a concept if it were to be a critical part of the Deen.

 

Furthermore, when you mention 12 disciples, I assume you are referring to the case of Prophet Isa (PBUH). His disciples were tasked only with spreading his teachings. In contrast to the Imams, his disciples were not taken as his successors, they were not given supreme divine attributes, their belief were not inscribed into Usul of Deen and they were not elevated to a status beyond the Prophet himself, yet unfortunately, this is what is done with the Imams.

 

Please note that the above is completely different than admitting that the Imams possessed great religious knowledge about the Deen, a claim that is not denied by anyone, Sunni or Shia. Some of the Sunni Imams were even students of Imam Jaafar Sadiq (as).

 

If you are trying to find the truth, look for the facts, put your emotions aside and do not take the bad examples of each school of thought as there representatives.

 

May Allah guide you, for it is only he who can do so.

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Salam sister

 

There is many places if you reflect over it and try to defeat what Satan and his forces whisper regarding it, you will see chosen ones alongside Mohammad in Quran.

 

The word astafa through Quran occurs 13 times, in 12 verses, and in all of these places, it implies specially choosing and exalting above the worlds, and refers to his elite servants. 

 

One place however shows there exist such servants along side Mohammad.

 

 
وَالَّذِي أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ هُوَ الْحَقُّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِعِبَادِهِ لَخَبِيرٌ بَصِيرٌ {31}
That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for Allah is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - is aware, seeing.
ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُمْ مُقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ {32}
35:32] Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants; so of them (ie. our servants) is he who is unjust to himself, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence.
 
I put "(ie. our servants)" regarding them, because I believe that is the blessed recitation that Satan keeps people from. The verse before emphasizes God with respect to his servants is seeing in light of Mohammad being revealed the book..ie God aware and seeing of him as he is aware of his servants. 
 
Then it states then we after that inherited the book to those who God specially chosen and exalted above others from his servants, so of his servants is one who is unjust, and of them is who in middle course, and of them is who races ahead of all in good deeds. God chooses for his religion and guidance to others those who race ahead of all in good deeds and makes them path towards him. 
 
This shows there existed mustafayoon along side Mohammad.
 
The Satanic whispering regarding this verse wants to state that "of them" refers to his mustafayoon servants, but we see elsewhere in Quran, Allah says peace be upon the servants that Allah has chosen (astafa)" so it cannot be unjust that are included in this.
 
In all places through out Quran, astafa has a special meaning. The word used for bani-israel is a different word than that which shows he did select them for knowledge, but not necessarily exalt them above rest of humanity.
 
Here the logic is showing the chosen ones are from the those who race ahead of all in good deeds. God picks from those who race ahead in good deeds and exalts them above the rest of human and chooses them specifically for his religion.
 
This is one instance in which with reflection, it becomes clear mustafayoon exist after Mohammad. And as per Talut verses, such people have Divine Authority over the people.
Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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