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Ariamariam

If The Prophet Was Here Would He Kill Gay People?

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Salam, sorry for the really stupid title, but it is to attract attention. I was born in Europe therefore I am kind of debating what is right and wrong in Islam compared to the western values. In school we often talk about homosexuality and how it should be okay and that is not a choice. As for myself, I don't agree. But I don't think I can ever tell them, because then of course you'll get the common word "homophobic" which I'm not. I don't have anything against human being, since Allah created them, but I don't necessarily agree with their acts.

 

So whenever we hear about gay people it is common to bring in Iran executing or hanging homosexuals. That they have no right and the list goes on. I was wondering. Is that really allowed in Islam? And how can you kill a person with your own judgment? Aren’t homosexuals already committing a sin then, they will get their punishment from God, why do we have to double the punishment with punishing them?

 

 

I also wonder that what if the prophet (pbuh) was here and the ahlulbayt and they met upon a homosexual. Would they punish him and burn him just like that?

The thing is that whenever I meet on a homosexual I never think that it is a good thing, but I am still going to be friendly. I just think that “God will show you”. So can anyone answer? Thank you! 

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Homosexuals are punished if it is publicly evident because when a person practices open homosexuality it may corrupt others.

 

As for it being practised in secret, well we have no right to be suspicious about people's private life.

 

Definitely the Prophet would not be killing gays, he would try to teach them and heal their illness. 

 

Islam sees homosexuality as an illness that needs curing and death is not a cure. 

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Islam punishes people that publicly commit the homosexual act, just like it punishes heterosexual people who publicly commit adultery.  It does however not punish people for simply being gay.  Most people don't consciously choose to be gay...it's inborn and beyond their control.  It's your actions, not your thoughts or desires that are subject to punishment.

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Islam punishes people that publicly commit the homosexual act, just like it punishes heterosexual people who publicly commit adultery.  It does however not punish people for simply being gay.  Most people don't consciously choose to be gay...it's inborn and beyond their control.  It's your actions, not your thoughts or desires that are subject to punishment.

 

Do you have proof that this is the central position in Islam? How does it make sense, and how is it fair, that God designed some human beings with homosexual predispositions, but exposes his wrath upon those who act out a predisposition created by God? 

Why did God create such an inclination to begin with?

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Is it not true that Ali threw a homosexual in a pit of fire? Or was it an apostate?

 

He burnt apostates that committed apostasy through exaggeration (of his status). As far as burning homosexuals goes, I have seen a narration where the Imam might have burnt him, but the sodomite repented. From what I remember, some scholars believe that burning a sodomite is an Islamic punishment.

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Do you have proof that this is the central position in Islam? How does it make sense, and how is it fair, that God designed some human beings with homosexual predispositions, but exposes his wrath upon those who act out a predisposition created by God? 

Why did God create such an inclination to begin with?

 

 I'd love to hear how any part homosexuality is beneficial to the world.

Edited by Ibn Al-Shahid

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Do you have proof that this is the central position in Islam? How does it make sense, and how is it fair, that God designed some human beings with homosexual predispositions, but exposes his wrath upon those who act out a predisposition created by God? 

Why did God create such an inclination to begin with?

 

I disagree, that's like saying why fornication is a sin... since some people are more lustful than others.

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Chair you are using your own approach here to ask a general question. You see homosexuality as a predisposition to sin, when in fact it can also simply be seen as an incapability to be with a woman. We all have predisposition to sin because we have desires but we may not know the way to fulfill or control them.

Homosexuals, as well as heterosexual, have sexual desires. Now the difference is the incapability to find pleasure in women what defines homosexuality, thus you can't simply reduce it to predisposition to sin. Homosexuals are most likely expected to remain celibate or force themselves to find pleasure in women according to our current understanding of islamic sources.

Regarding OP's question, historic sources prove us the Prophet (saww) didn't prosecute nor killed gay people (even those known not to have desire for women). Punishment is for public acts.

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(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (a.s) having said: ‘Whilst Amir Al-Momineen (a.s) was among a group of his (a.s) companions, when a man came over and said, ‘O Amir Al-Momineen! I have gone to (sexual relations with) a boy, therefore purify me’. So he (a.s) said: ‘O you! Go to your house, perhaps your gall bladder is exciting you’.

So when is was the next morning, he returned to him (a.s) and said to him (a.s), ‘O Amir Al-Momineen! I have gone to a boy, therefore purify me’. So he (a,s) said to him: ‘O you! Go to your house, perhaps your gall bladder is exciting you’. He did it three times after the first. So when it was during the fourth, he (a.s) said to him: ‘O you! Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a) had judged regarding (a case) similar to yours with three judgements, therefore choose which of these you like’. He said, ‘And what are these, O Amir Al-Momineen?’ He (a.s) said: ‘A strike with the sword in your neck, it reaches what it reaches, or throwing you off the mountain with your hands and feet tied up, or burning with the fire’. So he said, ‘O Amir Al-Momineen! Which of these is the harshest upon me’. He (a.s) said: ‘Burning with the fire’. He said, ‘So I have chosen it, O Amir Al-Momineen! He (a.s) said: ‘Are you prepared to take that, I shall call for you’. So he said, ‘Yes’.

So he (a.s) said: ‘So he (the sinner) Prayed two cycles (rak’ah), then sat in his Tashahhud, so he said: ‘O Allah! I had committed from the sins which You Know of, and I feared from that. So I went to the successor of Your Messenger (s.a.w.a), and a cousin of Your Prophet (s.a.w.a), so I asked him (a.s) that he (a.s) should purify me. So he (a.s) gave me a choice of three types of punishment. O Allah! So I have chosen the harshest of these. O Allah! I ask You that You Make that as an expiation of my sin, and that You do not Burn me with Your Fire in my Hereafter!’

Then he stood up and he was crying until he sat in the pit which had been dug out for him by Amir Al-Momineen (a.s), and he was seeing the fire inflaming around him. So Amir Al-Momineen (a.s) wept and his companions wept altogether. So Amir Al-Momineen (a.s) said to him: ‘Arise, O you, for you have made the Angels of the sky and the Angels of the earth to cry, so Allah has Turned towards you (with Mercy). So arise and do not repeat anything from what you have done’.

Source: Furu’ Al-Kafi, Volume 7, Chapter 22, Hadith #1 

Grading: Allaamah Majlisi said this hadith has a Hasan/Good chain (حسن) [Mira’at Al-Uqool, Volume 23, Page 306]

http://purifiedhouse...y-of-Allah-swt/ 

 

 

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That doesn't answer my question. What's the point in quoting me if you just want to ask your own question?

Actually it does answer your question. You're trying to find the ultimate truth aren't you? What's the point of me spoon feeding you the answer? Spend a few minutes and think about it. Edited by Ibn Al-Shahid

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Salamun 'Alaykum,

 

I know I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes...

 

Homosexuality in the pre-modern world was almost exclusively associated with open pederasty; the strong (man) dominating and utterly humiliating the weak, oppressed and defenseless (slave boy).

 

The idea of a union between adults of the same gender in an equitable, consenting (and private!) relationship is a relatively modern development; such concepts didn't really take hold in "The West" until the Romantic Era. One only needs to compare the homosexuality of Aristophanes to, say, Wordsworth to see what I mean here, the two are not even close to the same.

 

If the consequence is death for behavior which follows the "ancient" pattern of man/child pederasty, then I'll just come out (pun intended) and say that I fully support such a punishment, whether such truly horrendous offenses are committed in public or in private; if anyone harmed my kids or if I stumbled upon a situation where a child was being abused in such a way, I guarantee you I would personally send the perp straight to hell...

 

wa Allahu a'alam

 

Masalama, and happy Easter to all of my Christian brothers and sisters out there!     

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I disagree, that's like saying why fornication is a sin... since some people are more lustful than others.

 

I suggest you read Renaissance_Man's position in post #4. My question is predicated on his assumption: that homosexuality is a natural trait in human beings. 

 

Lustfulness, per se, does not contain a specific gender preference. It is not limited to a certain type of people. The degree of lust varies from person to person, but it does not explain a person's sexual preference or fetishes. Please don't distract from the actual issue.  

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Chair you are using your own approach here to ask a general question. You see homosexuality as a predisposition to sin, when in fact it can also simply be seen as an incapability to be with a woman.

 

It's unfortunate you find difficulty in paying attention. My complaint is that if gender preference is an inborn trait then it is completely reasonable to chastise a person who acts on that inborn trait. 

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Regarding OP's question, historic sources prove us the Prophet (saww) didn't prosecute nor killed gay people (even those known not to have desire for women). Punishment is for public acts.

 

Interesting point.

 

I've not come across any mention of homosexual practices in the Sirah of the Prophet. It's surprising because I read it was practised in pre-Islamic Arabia; whether it was common or not I don't know.

 

I'm only aware of two accounts where two individuals were said to lack desire for women: an old man and a slave boy (an adolescent rather) who was castrated in his childhood. Unfortunately castration of slave boys was very common in Arabia. It doesn't seem like the Prophet condemned it which is why it continued on a massive scale until recent times when slavery was abolished by the West.

 

Edit.

Actually if I remember correctly, some Quranic exegists recall a story of two lesbians the Prophet incarcerated for doing the act. I'll need to look it up to check their sources.

Edited by Sea Ocean

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I feel you are being sarcastic there Chair (I'm not too good at noticing sarcasm though). It is not about how reasonable it is, religion is not pure reason but also faith.

However, what's the problem if it is inborn? I do believe (and for me it is a fact) that there is an inborn predisposition to homosexuality, but I don't find a prohibition on homosexuality unreasonable nor cruel. Such thinking is the one that supports the idea that makes religious people think we are not born this way but rather we turn to homosexuality on our own accord, and for most cases that's pure biggotry.

Life, let Islam aside, is full of sacrifices that don't seem reasonable from pragmatic points of view, but you give sense to those sacrifices through love (in this case to God). Sex is not as required as love, though many times both concepts are mixed. A homosexual person can find love, give love, and receive it, without even approaching the manifestation of homosexuality. Would be a cruelty if we couldn't know what love is, but it is not the case. Sex is not as necessary as it may seem for some, especially if you don't expect it for yourself in your lifetime.

I have always seen cruelty to homosexuals coming from humans, not religions, to be honest.

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However, what's the problem if it is inborn? I do believe (and for me it is a fact) that there is an inborn predisposition to homosexuality, but I don't find a prohibition on homosexuality unreasonable nor cruel. Such thinking is the one that supports the idea that makes religious people think we are not born this way but rather we turn to homosexuality on our own accord, and for most cases that's pure biggotry.

 

The question is simple: why would God create the phenomena of homosexuality to begin with if homosexual activity is prohibited? That is completely mindless.

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However, what's the problem if it is inborn? I do believe (and for me it is a fact) that there is an inborn predisposition to homosexuality, but I don't find a prohibition on homosexuality unreasonable nor cruel. Such thinking is the one that supports the idea that makes religious people think we are not born this way but rather we turn to homosexuality on our own accord, and for most cases that's pure biggotry.

 

The question is simple: why did God create the phenomena of homosexuality to begin with if homosexual activity is prohibited? That is completely mindless.

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The question is simple: why did God create the phenomena of homosexuality to begin with if homosexual activity is prohibited? That is completely mindless.

 

Maybe it is kind of like a "challenge", not sure that's how i should put it. But God tests us, but something about my theori too is slightly confusing.

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Homosexuals are punished if it is publicly evident because when a person practices open homosexuality it may corrupt others.

 

As for it being practised in secret, well we have no right to be suspicious about people's private life.

 

Definitely the Prophet would not be killing gays, he would try to teach them and heal their illness. 

 

Islam sees homosexuality as an illness that needs curing and death is not a cure. 

But the argument people would use against that is that they (gay people) don't force that on us (straight people), but we force being straight on them. I don't know how to answer that? 

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Chair I'm sure your question doesn't have only one answer, but the way I see it is that whatever we don't nor can know is actually for our own good. In another hand, one things doesn't necessarily lead to the other. You would be surprised of the amount of gay people who choose not to act on their desires. Most people here may not know many gays, but it's not my case and I know a big number of people who choose to control their desires.

Again, nor God nor religion have ever looked mindless in my eyes, but people. People are midless and shameful and show some type of serious toxic homophobia even within their families. I consider it a shame not to love your own son or daughter for unconscious feelings, but that actually happens in its worst shape. Again, this is not from the tradition of our Prophet nor from the Quram itself. But straight people are the first to fail to separate sex from sexual orientation, and I somewhat understand why, they have never been in a gay's shoes.

Ariamariam, you are not asked to force anyone into being straight. Let's keep in mind that being gay by itself is not haraam, but of course if someone can and wants to change I see no problem in encouraging him to do so. Good for him if he succeeds.

Khalil, it is not exactly seen as an illness as far as I have been able to research, but as a misuse of one's sexual desire.

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Why don't we just let homosexual people commit the sin? It is God that has the last word anyways. Why do we double their punishment? Because killing them would not help and I'm totally against that. 

 

Because it is the duty of a Muslim, especially those in a position of power, to promote and maintain a 'pure' society. The Islamic doctrine for this is known as 'enjoining good and forbidding evil'.

 

Here is where I am perplexed: If God created us with innate desires and revealed to us the precepts by which we satisfy them, how then do homosexuals satisfy their desires, Islamically? It seems harsh to think God would create a desire without providing a legitimate outlet for it. It also seems immoral for a God to create a desire that only leads to sin. He has to take some responsibility for this, surely.

 

I'd really appreciate an explanation from anyone.

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There is a greater picture here that affects all beings though. We all want to live, that is an innate desire not only in us, humans, but in all creation. No one wants to die, yet death is a reality for all of us. Why we have the innate desire to live eternally when we cannot satisfy this desire in any way? A desire being innate doesn't mean it can or has to be satisfied.

Magma, I would say that islamically there is no way in which we can naturally satisfy our real desires, since women will never satisfy us the way a man would. But if you mean mere physical pleasure, then maybe, yet I have my doubts. In any case we are not going to die nor explode for not having a boyfriend :p. We are most likely to do an extra effort in controlling our desires, but isn't that also rewarding? In the other hand, I may look mad for saying this but I would say that our condition also protect us from many other sins.

Again, there is no need for much explanations to be honest. There is no cruelty coming from religion, as I said before. Each one has to do his own sacrifices. Ours may be our lust. If you consider the mere existence of homosexuality as a cruelty from God, then life by itself is a form of cruelty, much worse that the prohibition of homosexuality, as we can at least choose to act on our desires, but nobody can live forever, for example.

Edited by Bakir

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The question is simple: why would God create the phenomena of homosexuality to begin with if homosexual activity is prohibited? That is completely mindless.

God also created humans with the ability to kill,make war,exploit,hate and so on.The point is to recognize Him and live according to His path for us,even if we could do wrong,we should do not.

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I suggest you read Renaissance_Man's position in post #4. My question is predicated on his assumption: that homosexuality is a natural trait in human beings. 

 

Lustfulness, per se, does not contain a specific gender preference. It is not limited to a certain type of people. The degree of lust varies from person to person, but it does not explain a person's sexual preference or fetishes. Please don't distract from the actual issue.  

 

You're asking why God created homosexuality (supposing it even exists), I replied by saying that the question would be similar to ask why God created lust. It's a natural thing.

 

Not to mention that lust does effect one gender more than it does for another. 

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God also created humans with the ability to kill,make war,exploit,hate and so on.The point is to recognize Him and live according to His path for us,even if we could do wrong,we should do not.

 

I get what you're trying to say, but this is a false equivalence.  Killing someone and making war and things within a person's control.  Your sexual orientation is inborn and not of your choosing.  

 

You're asking why God created homosexuality (supposing it even exists), I replied by saying that the question would be similar to ask why God created lust. It's a natural thing.

 

Not to mention that lust does effect one gender more than it does for another. 

 

God created lust but also provided a proper outlet for it through marriage.  That option isn't available to homosexuals.  

 

Personally, I don't know what the solution is.  Islam doesn't give people carte blanche to do whatever they want sexually.  Even hetrosexuals can only satisfy their desires through marriage.  Pre-marital sex, masturbation, and even looking at the opposite gender lustfully is haraam.  It could be that like the aforementioned things, homosexual activity can have ill-effects on society or the spirit.

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God created lust but also provided a proper outlet for it through marriage.  That option isn't available to homosexuals.  

 

Personally, I don't know what the solution is.  Islam doesn't give people carte blanche to do whatever they want sexually.  Even hetrosexuals can only satisfy their desires through marriage.  Pre-marital sex, masturbation, and even looking at the opposite gender lustfully is haraam.  It could be that like the aforementioned things, homosexual activity can have ill-effects on society or the spirit.

 

Some people are born with defects, such as people with no hands, no feet, blind, deaf etc... why is it a problem to put gay people alongside people with physical defects? If these gay people are truly gay since birth, then they should strive towards controlling their lust, perhaps it is a test of Allah upon them, and Allah may reward them for this.

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