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StrugglingForTheLight

Kufr To Deny Meaning Of Ghadeer Declaration?

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Salam

 

Considering the Ghadeer declaration states the following:

 

The Prophet is leaving us two weighty things, Quran and his family.

That whoever he is Mawla to, then Ali is Mawla to.

 

And the Prophet was told "O Messenger convey what is revealed to you from your Lord, for if you do not do it, you have not conveyed the message".

 

That means, what the Prophet declared is conveying the message of Wilayah of Ali and his family?  As Ahlulbayt are already in Quran, this can be saying, o Messenger despite the verses about your ahlulbayt and despite them in Salawat, and despite a lot of people knowing their rights, and despite what you told them of their virtues and declared clearly of successors...you must convey a clear message to the masses so that that masses know Ali is your Successor and that he is part of your chosen family that you are leaving as a guidance along with the Quran, and you must convey it in a way that it get's passed on by deniers and believers a like while being it clearly acknowledged to those who are honest to themselves and clear enough that is a proof for all those who hear it for if you do not convey to the masses and the masses of later generations, then you have not conveyed the message, and the Wilayah of your successor and Ahlulbayt would not be known to the masses. 

 

That would meaning stating thaqalain and Ali Mawla together gives the message that there is a chosen family that he is leaving us as guidance a long with the Quran, and that in context of that, emphasizes, whoever he is the master of, then Ali is the master of, and it doesn't make sense to mean a normal family or friendship, for all believers are being left by the Prophet as friends and brothers nor should he single out his family and then state Ali if this was the meaning, rather he would emphasize on the brotherhood of believers and then tell us Ali is Mawla of believers and all believers are brothers.

 

I think if we say this meaning is not clear, we are saying the Rasool didn't convey the message.

 

And denying a clear proof is a form of kufr.

 

Of course not all Sunnis are aware of the Ghadeer declaration, but to those who are, isn't their denial of the Divine Authority of Ahlulbayt and specifically Ali kufr?

 

 

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Yes should be from 12ers imami shias perpective ...why isn't it ?

I think per our hadiths it is.   Our Imams said those who don't believe in the Imams or know them from the nation, their actions are not be accepted. This was because back then almost everyone knew of the ghadeer declaration and hadithal thaqalain.

 

I think a lot of our scholars are playing politics over the truth now. Islam is defined as submitting to the guidance of God that comes to you. Sure if a Sunni doesn't know about the proofs of Ali and his Wilayah, then he is a submitter to God as long as he follows the guidance that has come to him.

 

That is true of people of all different type of faiths as well. But if God has manifested a Guide and chose authority, then he must be followed, and that is part of submission to God.

 

In general, in the nation during the time of the Imams, a person denying an Imam from God doesn't have share in Islam. This is because he is denying Ayatallah and not submitting to the guidance from God and the door he wants us to enter and the proofs of Sunnah were known back then by almost everyone.

 

And from our hadiths about 5:67, it is about Ali's Wilayah, which is that of being of the chosen family of Mohammad that is a weighty guidance and authority along with the Quran.

 

If we say the Ghadeer declaration is not clear enough, we are saying the Messenger didn't convey the message. For Ahlulbayt are already in Quran per our beliefs, so it's not just about declaring their station which can be done in a less clear way, but this was about manifesting them to the masses of that generation and generations to follow.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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How is Ali's wilayah different from Aaron's priesthood?

Brother, the Bible doesn't even acknowledge Aeron as a Prophet and Messenger. 

 

We know in Quran all Messengers are sent to be obeyed by God's permission. 

 

Let's discuss what the Quran has stated about Aeron instead of the Bible.

 

The Talut verses show his chosen ones are the true kings of humanity. The Quran came to show the truth of his religion in the past and present.

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I read the following in Imam Khomeini's book in Adab As-Salah:

 

 

In short, adhering to the masters of graces [awliyā'-i ni'am] who have themselves found the way of ascension to ma'ārij and completed their journey to Allah is a must for the travelers to Allah, as is frequently mentioned in the noble Hadiths, such that in Wasā'il (Wasā'il ash-Shī'ah) there is a chapter concerning the invalidity of worship without adhering to the guardianship of the Imāms (the 12 Imāms) and believing in their Imamate.

In Wasā'il it is quoted from the noble al-Kāfī, on the authority of its writer quoting Muhammad ibn Muslim who said: “I was told by Imām Baqīr al-'Ulūm (the fifth Imām) ('a) who said: “Know, O Muhammad, that the leaders of despotism and their followers are isolated from Allah's religion. They are misleading and misled. So, their deeds are like the ashes at which a violent wind blows on a windy day and it disperses them.”3

In another narrative from Imām al-Bāqir, he said: “If a man spent his nights performing the Salat, spent his days fasting, gave out all his wealth in charity, and went to hajj every year of his life, yet he did not know the guardianship of Allah's friend to follow him and return to him in all his deeds, he would have no right to ask Allah, the Glorious and Almighty, for any reward, nor would he be of the people of faith.”4

Shaykh as-Sadūq, quoting Abū Hamza ath-Thumālī, says that he said: “Imām 'Alī ibn al-Husayn ('a) asked us: “Which spot is most preferred?” We said “Allah, His Messenger and the son of His Messenger know better.” He said: “The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever.”5

The narratives on this topic are too many to be contained in this summary.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What are Shia thoughts on this?

 

 

 

 

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I read the following in Imam Khomeini's book in Adab As-Salah:

 

 

In short, adhering to the masters of graces [awliyā'-i ni'am] who have themselves found the way of ascension to ma'ārij and completed their journey to Allah is a must for the travelers to Allah, as is frequently mentioned in the noble Hadiths, such that in Wasā'il (Wasā'il ash-Shī'ah) there is a chapter concerning the invalidity of worship without adhering to the guardianship of the Imāms (the 12 Imāms) and believing in their Imamate.

In Wasā'il it is quoted from the noble al-Kāfī, on the authority of its writer quoting Muhammad ibn Muslim who said: “I was told by Imām Baqīr al-'Ulūm (the fifth Imām) ('a) who said: “Know, O Muhammad, that the leaders of despotism and their followers are isolated from Allah's religion. They are misleading and misled. So, their deeds are like the ashes at which a violent wind blows on a windy day and it disperses them.”3

In another narrative from Imām al-Bāqir, he said: “If a man spent his nights performing the Salat, spent his days fasting, gave out all his wealth in charity, and went to hajj every year of his life, yet he did not know the guardianship of Allah's friend to follow him and return to him in all his deeds, he would have no right to ask Allah, the Glorious and Almighty, for any reward, nor would he be of the people of faith.”4

Shaykh as-Sadūq, quoting Abū Hamza ath-Thumālī, says that he said: “Imām 'Alī ibn al-Husayn ('a) asked us: “Which spot is most preferred?” We said “Allah, His Messenger and the son of His Messenger know better.” He said: “The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever.”5

The narratives on this topic are too many to be contained in this summary.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What are Shia thoughts on this?

 

 

 

 

 

What can we say? The Imams have given us their position. 

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What can we say? The Imams have given us their position. 

It is verified by Quran or contradicted? Is it verified by logic or contradicted? What about God's compassion and justice? This is what I want to discuss.  From my understanding, in Suratal Nisa, the emphasis on those who disbelieve in God's Ayat was regarding the family of Mohammad and their Wilayah although it does include Quran, but in that place, those who turned away from the great authority of the family of Ibrahim were emphasized to receive hell. Then we are told those who disbelieve in God's Ayat. And the reward of belief. Then it's emphasize to judge by justice between the people and give the trusts to it's owners. Then we are told to obey God thereby emphasizing the authority of the family of Ibrahim is great due it being linked to obedience to God, and then emphasizing to obey the Messenger and the Ulil-Amr from us. I think these hadiths are verified by the Quran. 

 

As well, the Quran states it has insights for people, so who is blind is blind on himself. So being blind to these verses and blind to the explanation of the Sunnah with regards to the verses of Quran, is but blindness of the heart, caused by preferring the whispering of sayateen over that of the what God and his Angels and obedient servants annul.

 

We cannot deny the Ghadeer declaration is clear enough as that would be contradict both reason and the verse 5:67. 

 

Therefore I feel the following all verifies this:

 

1) The Logic of preferring what Satanic forces cast upon the hearts of humanity and the falsehood they create over the truth of God, supported by his proofs, his Angels, and the obedient spirits, is by rationality hate towards God's light and beautiful Names and Attributes, and is therefore even a form of disbelief of the light of God and the light of his Messenger and opposition to it.

2) The Quran shows denial of God's Ayat is a huge injustice and belief in the Taghut is condemned, as we been commanded to disbelieve in it. And this emphasizes near the Ulil-Amr verse.

3) The verse 5:67 shows the message has been conveyed, and therefore people aware of this message as the people were generally aware of it during the times of the Imams, they have no excuse but to recognize the Imams.

4) The hadiths of Ahlulbayt are mutuwattir in meaning that the people during their time who didn't believe in the 12 Imams were not of the people of faith. There is some hadiths that use the word Islam as well.

5) Submission to the authority of family of Mohammad is submission to God's guidance and authority by logic and the religion God completed and was pleased with it only when the Wilayah of Ali and his family was made clear to the masses.

 

So anyone who opposes this, I am willing to hear arguments.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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I also like to point out that our scholars say a "mu'min" (believer) has to be a Twelver Shi'a. So any other Islamic sect (and I mean falls under the different sects of Islam) would not be believers but would be treated as Muslims (only).  

Edited by al-Ibrahimi

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I distinguish between two Islams.

 

1.Submission to the fact God sent Mohammad as a Messenger.

2. Submission to his guidance.

 

While Sunnis are for sure of 1, 2 they can only be that if they are unaware of the proofs of the religion and are mustaafeen. But those aware of proofs like Ghadeer declaration and hadithal thaqalain, are no longer on 2.  The creed of Ibrahim is of 2, and the upright religion is of 2.

 

1 is useful in that we all acknowledge each other as people of acceptance of Quran and Mohammad. 

 

But the religion of truth, the one that is truly submitting to God, cannot accept people rejecting his guidance and the authority of his chosen ones after the path of the believers have become manifest to them.

 

The Shariah deals with as "Muslims" of 1, because, there would be too much fitna if we define as 2 only.  

 

Therefore both hadiths, those who acknowledge them (disbelievers of Wilayah) as Muslims, and those who reject them as having a share in Islam, can be seen in this light.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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I read the following in Imam Khomeini's book in Adab As-Salah:

In short, adhering to the masters of graces [awliyā'-i ni'am] who have themselves found the way of ascension to ma'ārij and completed their journey to Allah is a must for the travelers to Allah, as is frequently mentioned in the noble Hadiths, such that in Wasā'il (Wasā'il ash-Shī'ah) there is a chapter concerning the invalidity of worship without adhering to the guardianship of the Imāms (the 12 Imāms) and believing in their Imamate.

In Wasā'il it is quoted from the noble al-Kāfī, on the authority of its writer quoting Muhammad ibn Muslim who said: “I was told by Imām Baqīr al-'Ulūm (the fifth Imām) ('a) who said: “Know, O Muhammad, that the leaders of despotism and their followers are isolated from Allah's religion. They are misleading and misled. So, their deeds are like the ashes at which a violent wind blows on a windy day and it disperses them.”3

In another narrative from Imām al-Bāqir, he said: “If a man spent his nights performing the Salat, spent his days fasting, gave out all his wealth in charity, and went to hajj every year of his life, yet he did not know the guardianship of Allah's friend to follow him and return to him in all his deeds, he would have no right to ask Allah, the Glorious and Almighty, for any reward, nor would he be of the people of faith.”4

Shaykh as-Sadūq, quoting Abū Hamza ath-Thumālī, says that he said: “Imām 'Alī ibn al-Husayn ('a) asked us: “Which spot is most preferred?” We said “Allah, His Messenger and the son of His Messenger know better.” He said: “The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever.”5

The narratives on this topic are too many to be contained in this summary.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What are Shia thoughts on this?

Everywhere in the Quran, Allah swt tells us that those exact deeds make you succesfull and Khomeini thinks it will not. Nowhere in the Quran does Allah Subhana Wa Ta3ala say that we should follow 12 imams.. If God wants us to follow the imams so vividly and intense, He would made it clear to us in the Quran which repeatedly mentions that its a clear, and easy understandable book for those with open hearts, ears and eyes. A muslim that performs salaat, pays zakaat, forbids evil goes to heaven and is good.

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If you don't see them in the Quran, that's not because they are not in the Quran, but rather it's because you haven't seen them.

Quran:

 

But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (salla allahu alaihi wa salaam) for it is the truth from their Lord – He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.

 

It is He who revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are definitive; they are the foundation of the Book, and others are unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they follow the unspecific part, seeking dissent, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except God and those firmly rooted in knowledge say, "We believe in it; all is from our Lord." But none recollects except those with understanding

 

 

 

 

Khomeini:

 

The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever

 

These 2 very different statements can only be settled by asking yourself this question: Do you believe the word of Khomeini over the Creator,Sustainer of Mankind?  

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Yeah because it's clear Allah told us to obey Taghuts like Mauwiya and Yazeed but unclear he told us to obey his proofs that have the authority of God upon his creation. 

 

Why is the waswas of Satan so "clear" but what Allah truly means unclear. It's nothing but inclining to falsehood and preferring the jibt (sorcery cast by Satan and his forces) over the Haq.

 

As for you interpretation of the two verses you brought, they mean nothing to me. It's your own blindness. You don't reflect and follow everything Satanic forces tell you about the Quran.

 

 

 

 

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Salaams all around,

 

Brother SFTL: I know you don't particularly care for anyone else's (differing) views on this subject, but I would caution you against hardening in your positions to the extent that you begin declaring takfir on your fellow brothers and sisters. Less than a year ago that you identified as agnostic/humanist and (quite frankly) came across as more compassionate and open-minded in your posts. What happened?

 

Allah SWT knows that my Iman has vacillated greatly over the years; sometimes my heart bursts at the seams with love for and devotion to the deen, while at other moments in my life I've gotten the feeling that I've been utterly abandoned and/or tricked by forces that are completely beyond my control/understanding, and my soul dries up like a scorched desert...Life is a test, for sure, and at times the subject matter utterly baffles me. Nevertheless, through many trials and tribulations I've come to realize that absolutely everything  that happens in this life (and what comes after) is within the vision and love of Allah SWT. Allah SWT is al-Ghaffar, al-Ghaffur wa at-Tawwab; if I am to live in the hope of receiving forgiveness for my transgressions (of which there are many!), then I have no choice but to develop these attributes within myself. If I am to place myself in a position where I become judge and ruler over what constitutes the "true" faith and the "true" believer, then I have no one to blame but myself when The Master Over All judges me as severely as I judged my fellow human beings. Such is the way of the universe...

 

wa allahu a'alam

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