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In the Name of God بسم الله

Kufr To Deny Meaning Of Ghadeer Declaration?

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Salam

 

Considering the Ghadeer declaration states the following:

 

The Prophet is leaving us two weighty things, Quran and his family.

That whoever he is Mawla to, then Ali is Mawla to.

 

And the Prophet was told "O Messenger convey what is revealed to you from your Lord, for if you do not do it, you have not conveyed the message".

 

That means, what the Prophet declared is conveying the message of Wilayah of Ali and his family?  As Ahlulbayt are already in Quran, this can be saying, o Messenger despite the verses about your ahlulbayt and despite them in Salawat, and despite a lot of people knowing their rights, and despite what you told them of their virtues and declared clearly of successors...you must convey a clear message to the masses so that that masses know Ali is your Successor and that he is part of your chosen family that you are leaving as a guidance along with the Quran, and you must convey it in a way that it get's passed on by deniers and believers a like while being it clearly acknowledged to those who are honest to themselves and clear enough that is a proof for all those who hear it for if you do not convey to the masses and the masses of later generations, then you have not conveyed the message, and the Wilayah of your successor and Ahlulbayt would not be known to the masses. 

 

That would meaning stating thaqalain and Ali Mawla together gives the message that there is a chosen family that he is leaving us as guidance a long with the Quran, and that in context of that, emphasizes, whoever he is the master of, then Ali is the master of, and it doesn't make sense to mean a normal family or friendship, for all believers are being left by the Prophet as friends and brothers nor should he single out his family and then state Ali if this was the meaning, rather he would emphasize on the brotherhood of believers and then tell us Ali is Mawla of believers and all believers are brothers.

 

I think if we say this meaning is not clear, we are saying the Rasool didn't convey the message.

 

And denying a clear proof is a form of kufr.

 

Of course not all Sunnis are aware of the Ghadeer declaration, but to those who are, isn't their denial of the Divine Authority of Ahlulbayt and specifically Ali kufr?

 

 

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Yes should be from 12ers imami shias perpective ...why isn't it ?

I think per our hadiths it is.   Our Imams said those who don't believe in the Imams or know them from the nation, their actions are not be accepted. This was because back then almost everyone knew of the ghadeer declaration and hadithal thaqalain.

 

I think a lot of our scholars are playing politics over the truth now. Islam is defined as submitting to the guidance of God that comes to you. Sure if a Sunni doesn't know about the proofs of Ali and his Wilayah, then he is a submitter to God as long as he follows the guidance that has come to him.

 

That is true of people of all different type of faiths as well. But if God has manifested a Guide and chose authority, then he must be followed, and that is part of submission to God.

 

In general, in the nation during the time of the Imams, a person denying an Imam from God doesn't have share in Islam. This is because he is denying Ayatallah and not submitting to the guidance from God and the door he wants us to enter and the proofs of Sunnah were known back then by almost everyone.

 

And from our hadiths about 5:67, it is about Ali's Wilayah, which is that of being of the chosen family of Mohammad that is a weighty guidance and authority along with the Quran.

 

If we say the Ghadeer declaration is not clear enough, we are saying the Messenger didn't convey the message. For Ahlulbayt are already in Quran per our beliefs, so it's not just about declaring their station which can be done in a less clear way, but this was about manifesting them to the masses of that generation and generations to follow.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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How is Ali's wilayah different from Aaron's priesthood?

Brother, the Bible doesn't even acknowledge Aeron as a Prophet and Messenger. 

 

We know in Quran all Messengers are sent to be obeyed by God's permission. 

 

Let's discuss what the Quran has stated about Aeron instead of the Bible.

 

The Talut verses show his chosen ones are the true kings of humanity. The Quran came to show the truth of his religion in the past and present.

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I read the following in Imam Khomeini's book in Adab As-Salah:

 

 

In short, adhering to the masters of graces [awliyā'-i ni'am] who have themselves found the way of ascension to ma'ārij and completed their journey to Allah is a must for the travelers to Allah, as is frequently mentioned in the noble Hadiths, such that in Wasā'il (Wasā'il ash-Shī'ah) there is a chapter concerning the invalidity of worship without adhering to the guardianship of the Imāms (the 12 Imāms) and believing in their Imamate.

In Wasā'il it is quoted from the noble al-Kāfī, on the authority of its writer quoting Muhammad ibn Muslim who said: “I was told by Imām Baqīr al-'Ulūm (the fifth Imām) ('a) who said: “Know, O Muhammad, that the leaders of despotism and their followers are isolated from Allah's religion. They are misleading and misled. So, their deeds are like the ashes at which a violent wind blows on a windy day and it disperses them.”3

In another narrative from Imām al-Bāqir, he said: “If a man spent his nights performing the Salat, spent his days fasting, gave out all his wealth in charity, and went to hajj every year of his life, yet he did not know the guardianship of Allah's friend to follow him and return to him in all his deeds, he would have no right to ask Allah, the Glorious and Almighty, for any reward, nor would he be of the people of faith.”4

Shaykh as-Sadūq, quoting Abū Hamza ath-Thumālī, says that he said: “Imām 'Alī ibn al-Husayn ('a) asked us: “Which spot is most preferred?” We said “Allah, His Messenger and the son of His Messenger know better.” He said: “The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever.”5

The narratives on this topic are too many to be contained in this summary.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What are Shia thoughts on this?

 

 

 

 

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I read the following in Imam Khomeini's book in Adab As-Salah:

 

 

In short, adhering to the masters of graces [awliyā'-i ni'am] who have themselves found the way of ascension to ma'ārij and completed their journey to Allah is a must for the travelers to Allah, as is frequently mentioned in the noble Hadiths, such that in Wasā'il (Wasā'il ash-Shī'ah) there is a chapter concerning the invalidity of worship without adhering to the guardianship of the Imāms (the 12 Imāms) and believing in their Imamate.

In Wasā'il it is quoted from the noble al-Kāfī, on the authority of its writer quoting Muhammad ibn Muslim who said: “I was told by Imām Baqīr al-'Ulūm (the fifth Imām) ('a) who said: “Know, O Muhammad, that the leaders of despotism and their followers are isolated from Allah's religion. They are misleading and misled. So, their deeds are like the ashes at which a violent wind blows on a windy day and it disperses them.”3

In another narrative from Imām al-Bāqir, he said: “If a man spent his nights performing the Salat, spent his days fasting, gave out all his wealth in charity, and went to hajj every year of his life, yet he did not know the guardianship of Allah's friend to follow him and return to him in all his deeds, he would have no right to ask Allah, the Glorious and Almighty, for any reward, nor would he be of the people of faith.”4

Shaykh as-Sadūq, quoting Abū Hamza ath-Thumālī, says that he said: “Imām 'Alī ibn al-Husayn ('a) asked us: “Which spot is most preferred?” We said “Allah, His Messenger and the son of His Messenger know better.” He said: “The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever.”5

The narratives on this topic are too many to be contained in this summary.

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

What are Shia thoughts on this?

 

 

 

 

 

What can we say? The Imams have given us their position. 

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What can we say? The Imams have given us their position. 

It is verified by Quran or contradicted? Is it verified by logic or contradicted? What about God's compassion and justice? This is what I want to discuss.  From my understanding, in Suratal Nisa, the emphasis on those who disbelieve in God's Ayat was regarding the family of Mohammad and their Wilayah although it does include Quran, but in that place, those who turned away from the great authority of the family of Ibrahim were emphasized to receive hell. Then we are told those who disbelieve in God's Ayat. And the reward of belief. Then it's emphasize to judge by justice between the people and give the trusts to it's owners. Then we are told to obey God thereby emphasizing the authority of the family of Ibrahim is great due it being linked to obedience to God, and then emphasizing to obey the Messenger and the Ulil-Amr from us. I think these hadiths are verified by the Quran. 

 

As well, the Quran states it has insights for people, so who is blind is blind on himself. So being blind to these verses and blind to the explanation of the Sunnah with regards to the verses of Quran, is but blindness of the heart, caused by preferring the whispering of sayateen over that of the what God and his Angels and obedient servants annul.

 

We cannot deny the Ghadeer declaration is clear enough as that would be contradict both reason and the verse 5:67. 

 

Therefore I feel the following all verifies this:

 

1) The Logic of preferring what Satanic forces cast upon the hearts of humanity and the falsehood they create over the truth of God, supported by his proofs, his Angels, and the obedient spirits, is by rationality hate towards God's light and beautiful Names and Attributes, and is therefore even a form of disbelief of the light of God and the light of his Messenger and opposition to it.

2) The Quran shows denial of God's Ayat is a huge injustice and belief in the Taghut is condemned, as we been commanded to disbelieve in it. And this emphasizes near the Ulil-Amr verse.

3) The verse 5:67 shows the message has been conveyed, and therefore people aware of this message as the people were generally aware of it during the times of the Imams, they have no excuse but to recognize the Imams.

4) The hadiths of Ahlulbayt are mutuwattir in meaning that the people during their time who didn't believe in the 12 Imams were not of the people of faith. There is some hadiths that use the word Islam as well.

5) Submission to the authority of family of Mohammad is submission to God's guidance and authority by logic and the religion God completed and was pleased with it only when the Wilayah of Ali and his family was made clear to the masses.

 

So anyone who opposes this, I am willing to hear arguments.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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I also like to point out that our scholars say a "mu'min" (believer) has to be a Twelver Shi'a. So any other Islamic sect (and I mean falls under the different sects of Islam) would not be believers but would be treated as Muslims (only).  

Edited by al-Ibrahimi
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I distinguish between two Islams.

 

1.Submission to the fact God sent Mohammad as a Messenger.

2. Submission to his guidance.

 

While Sunnis are for sure of 1, 2 they can only be that if they are unaware of the proofs of the religion and are mustaafeen. But those aware of proofs like Ghadeer declaration and hadithal thaqalain, are no longer on 2.  The creed of Ibrahim is of 2, and the upright religion is of 2.

 

1 is useful in that we all acknowledge each other as people of acceptance of Quran and Mohammad. 

 

But the religion of truth, the one that is truly submitting to God, cannot accept people rejecting his guidance and the authority of his chosen ones after the path of the believers have become manifest to them.

 

The Shariah deals with as "Muslims" of 1, because, there would be too much fitna if we define as 2 only.  

 

Therefore both hadiths, those who acknowledge them (disbelievers of Wilayah) as Muslims, and those who reject them as having a share in Islam, can be seen in this light.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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I read the following in Imam Khomeini's book in Adab As-Salah:

In short, adhering to the masters of graces [awliyā'-i ni'am] who have themselves found the way of ascension to ma'ārij and completed their journey to Allah is a must for the travelers to Allah, as is frequently mentioned in the noble Hadiths, such that in Wasā'il (Wasā'il ash-Shī'ah) there is a chapter concerning the invalidity of worship without adhering to the guardianship of the Imāms (the 12 Imāms) and believing in their Imamate.

In Wasā'il it is quoted from the noble al-Kāfī, on the authority of its writer quoting Muhammad ibn Muslim who said: “I was told by Imām Baqīr al-'Ulūm (the fifth Imām) ('a) who said: “Know, O Muhammad, that the leaders of despotism and their followers are isolated from Allah's religion. They are misleading and misled. So, their deeds are like the ashes at which a violent wind blows on a windy day and it disperses them.”3

In another narrative from Imām al-Bāqir, he said: “If a man spent his nights performing the Salat, spent his days fasting, gave out all his wealth in charity, and went to hajj every year of his life, yet he did not know the guardianship of Allah's friend to follow him and return to him in all his deeds, he would have no right to ask Allah, the Glorious and Almighty, for any reward, nor would he be of the people of faith.”4

Shaykh as-Sadūq, quoting Abū Hamza ath-Thumālī, says that he said: “Imām 'Alī ibn al-Husayn ('a) asked us: “Which spot is most preferred?” We said “Allah, His Messenger and the son of His Messenger know better.” He said: “The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever.”5

The narratives on this topic are too many to be contained in this summary.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

What are Shia thoughts on this?

Everywhere in the Quran, Allah swt tells us that those exact deeds make you succesfull and Khomeini thinks it will not. Nowhere in the Quran does Allah Subhana Wa Ta3ala say that we should follow 12 imams.. If God wants us to follow the imams so vividly and intense, He would made it clear to us in the Quran which repeatedly mentions that its a clear, and easy understandable book for those with open hearts, ears and eyes. A muslim that performs salaat, pays zakaat, forbids evil goes to heaven and is good.
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If you don't see them in the Quran, that's not because they are not in the Quran, but rather it's because you haven't seen them.

Quran:

 

But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad (salla allahu alaihi wa salaam) for it is the truth from their Lord – He will expiate from them their sins, and will make good their state.

 

It is He who revealed to you the Book. Some of its verses are definitive; they are the foundation of the Book, and others are unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they follow the unspecific part, seeking dissent, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except God and those firmly rooted in knowledge say, "We believe in it; all is from our Lord." But none recollects except those with understanding

 

 

 

 

Khomeini:

 

The best of spots for us is that which is situated between the rukn and the maqām (two places in theKa'bah). If some one lives as long as the life of Nūh who lived among his people for a thousand years less fifty and spends it in fasting in daytime and in worshipping at nights in that spot, and then goes to meet Allah without accepting our guardianship, he will not be benefited by it whatsoever

 

These 2 very different statements can only be settled by asking yourself this question: Do you believe the word of Khomeini over the Creator,Sustainer of Mankind?  

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Yeah because it's clear Allah told us to obey Taghuts like Mauwiya and Yazeed but unclear he told us to obey his proofs that have the authority of God upon his creation. 

 

Why is the waswas of Satan so "clear" but what Allah truly means unclear. It's nothing but inclining to falsehood and preferring the jibt (sorcery cast by Satan and his forces) over the Haq.

 

As for you interpretation of the two verses you brought, they mean nothing to me. It's your own blindness. You don't reflect and follow everything Satanic forces tell you about the Quran.

 

 

 

 

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Salaams all around,

 

Brother SFTL: I know you don't particularly care for anyone else's (differing) views on this subject, but I would caution you against hardening in your positions to the extent that you begin declaring takfir on your fellow brothers and sisters. Less than a year ago that you identified as agnostic/humanist and (quite frankly) came across as more compassionate and open-minded in your posts. What happened?

 

Allah SWT knows that my Iman has vacillated greatly over the years; sometimes my heart bursts at the seams with love for and devotion to the deen, while at other moments in my life I've gotten the feeling that I've been utterly abandoned and/or tricked by forces that are completely beyond my control/understanding, and my soul dries up like a scorched desert...Life is a test, for sure, and at times the subject matter utterly baffles me. Nevertheless, through many trials and tribulations I've come to realize that absolutely everything  that happens in this life (and what comes after) is within the vision and love of Allah SWT. Allah SWT is al-Ghaffar, al-Ghaffur wa at-Tawwab; if I am to live in the hope of receiving forgiveness for my transgressions (of which there are many!), then I have no choice but to develop these attributes within myself. If I am to place myself in a position where I become judge and ruler over what constitutes the "true" faith and the "true" believer, then I have no one to blame but myself when The Master Over All judges me as severely as I judged my fellow human beings. Such is the way of the universe...

 

wa allahu a'alam

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Salaams all around,

 

Brother SFTL: I know you don't particularly care for anyone else's (differing) views on this subject, but I would caution you against hardening in your positions to the extent that you begin declaring takfir on your fellow brothers and sisters. Less than a year ago that you identified as agnostic/humanist and (quite frankly) came across as more compassionate and open-minded in your posts. What happened?

 

Allah SWT knows that my Iman has vacillated greatly over the years; sometimes my heart bursts at the seams with love for and devotion to the deen, while at other moments in my life I've gotten the feeling that I've been utterly abandoned and/or tricked by forces that are completely beyond my control/understanding, and my soul dries up like a scorched desert...Life is a test, for sure, and at times the subject matter utterly baffles me. Nevertheless, through many trials and tribulations I've come to realize that absolutely everything  that happens in this life (and what comes after) is within the vision and love of Allah SWT. Allah SWT is al-Ghaffar, al-Ghaffur wa at-Tawwab; if I am to live in the hope of receiving forgiveness for my transgressions (of which there are many!), then I have no choice but to develop these attributes within myself. If I am to place myself in a position where I become judge and ruler over what constitutes the "true" faith and the "true" believer, then I have no one to blame but myself when The Master Over All judges me as severely as I judged my fellow human beings. Such is the way of the universe...

 

wa allahu a'alam

Salam bro

 

Thank you for showing your view point. To be honest, I am the belief if a person doesn't have reasonable clear proofs come to them, they are not disbelievers, if they don't believe or deny. To disbelieve in Ayatallah is when the guidance and evidence of God's path comes to you, and it's denial with knowledge of them.

 

This is one of the hardest things for me, because, I greatly desire almost everyone to enter heaven. I hate the idea of people entering hell. It greatly disturbs me.

 

And when I was a Deist, I was happy because I didn't believe in hell.

 

But considering the Ghadeer declaration is suppose to be clear enough to prove the position of Ali and his family,  I think I cannot deceive myself, and say "the proof is unclear and it's excusable to deny their position". This would be denial of 5:67.

 

Therefore I opened this thread for discussion and see if this view is supported by reason, logic, hadiths or Quran. 

 

It's also the case that the Quran says it has insights for humanity so who is blind is blind against themselves, and also another verse states who is blind in this world is blind in the next.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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I believe as long as one recited the Shahadah, and knows Tawheed/Nabuwah it is up to Allah swt to judge them. We shia's, and sunni's unlike the petro-dollar funded ISIS and Takfiri's who recite beautiful Quran but have vile and hateful words, do not go around throwing the Takfir Blanket.

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Yeah because it's clear Allah told us to obey Taghuts like Mauwiya and Yazeed but unclear he told us to obey his proofs that have the authority of God upon his creation. 

 

Why is the waswas of Satan so "clear" but what Allah truly means unclear. It's nothing but inclining to falsehood and preferring the jibt (sorcery cast by Satan and his forces) over the Haq.

 

As for you interpretation of the two verses you brought, they mean nothing to me. It's your own blindness. You don't reflect and follow everything Satanic forces tell you about the Quran.

Noone is talking about Moewaya or Yazid..I dont see how that is related to this? Its not my interpretation, its the interpretation of God, the Prophets. If you believe in Allah swt and you live a life of good deeds and perform salaat, you will be rewarded with heaven. Now if you want to deny the words of God because you think going to heaven is impossible without giving recognition to human beings that happen to be born out of the seed of Ali ra than go ahead.

Just try getting this picture in your mind, 1.3 billion sunnis are on this planet. All of them will be brought before Allah swt and he will send them all to Hell eternally because they didnt follow the 12 imams of the Shia? 

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Noone is talking about Moewaya or Yazid..I dont see how that is related to this? Its not my interpretation, its the interpretation of God, the Prophets. If you believe in Allah swt and you live a life of good deeds and perform salaat, you will be rewarded with heaven. Now if you want to deny the words of God because you think going to heaven is impossible without giving recognition to human beings that happen to be born out of the seed of Ali ra than go ahead.

Just try getting this picture in your mind, 1.3 billion sunnis are on this planet. All of them will be brought before Allah swt and he will send them all to Hell eternally because they didnt follow the 12 imams of the Shia? 

Most Sunnis these days think the Prophet said I am leaving you Quran and my Sunnah. They don't know about hadithal thaqalain, the true version, and how it gave context to Ali Mawla. But I believe people aware of hadithal thaqalain and Ali mawla, and turn away the authority of the family of Mohammad, then yes they will be brought to hell.

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Most Sunnis these days think the Prophet said I am leaving you Quran and my Sunnah. They don't know about hadithal thaqalain, the true version, and how it gave context to Ali Mawla. But I believe people aware of hadithal thaqalain and Ali mawla, and turn away the authority of the family of Mohammad, then yes they will be brought to hell.

Well Ali ra is a mortal being and is mere a copy of Muhammed saw(He follows his Sunnah). If the Sunnis follow the example of Muhammed saw, how can you say they are going to Hell? Grasping the idea of humans that followed Muhammed saw go to hell is i guess impossible for me. 

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Well Ali ra is a mortal being and is mere a copy of Muhammed saw(He follows his Sunnah). If the Sunnis follow the example of Muhammed saw, how can you say they are going to Hell? Grasping the idea of humans that followed Muhammed saw go to hell is i guess impossible for me. 

This is like saying Jews can reject Nabi Isa as long as they follow Musa. It makes no sense.

 

Yes if they followed Musa, they would follow Isa. If you follow Mohammad, you follow Ali. Like he said "Whoever I am the master of, then Ali is the Master of".

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And again, it's only people aware of both hadithal thaqalain and Ali Mawla together in Ghadeer speech, that I think aren't excused from ignorance. Most Sunnis think the Prophet said I am leaving you two weighty things, Quran and my Sunnah. While  it's really Ahlulbayt, then specifying Ali's Wilyah.

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This is like saying Jews can reject Nabi Isa as long as they follow Musa. It makes no sense.

 

Yes if they followed Musa, they would follow Isa. If you follow Mohammad, you follow Ali. Like he said "Whoever I am the master of, then Ali is the Master of".

 

We dont need Ali ra to follow Muhammed saw due to the fact that the last Messenger and Prophet was and is Muhammed saw. If you are referring to the Caliphate, all i can say is Allahu A3lem. Abu Bakr ra, Umar ra ruled by the Sunna of the Prophet saw and the Quran same goes for Ali ra. If it was such a big disagreement that it would make the difference between heaven and hell, wouldnt Ali ra said something to warn the majority that chose for Abu Bakr ra? The truth is Muhammed saw talked highly about every Sahaba, because they were devout and committed themselves to the cause of Allah swt. And Ali ra fellt about it the same way hence why he named even his children to the Amir al Moominien before him(Umar ra). He had no grudge against him unlike the Shia do today and exaggerate everything. 

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They are Kafir to the concept of Imamate and Velayat and we are Kafir to the concept of Rashidun Caliphs.

Being a kafir is not necessary bad.

In the case of Imammate, it's Ayatallah and disbelieving in Ayatallah is condemned harshly in Quran and so is turning away from a mulk Allah [awj] gave and connected it to his obedience.

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In the case of Imammate, it's Ayatallah and disbelieving in Ayatallah is condemned harshly in Quran and so is turning away from a mulk Allah [awj] gave and connected it to his obedience.

All of these are within Islam not out of Islam. This is what Sunnies should think about it.

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All of these are within Islam not out of Islam. This is what Sunnies should think about it.

In the Islam of accepting the Messenger, out of the Islam of submitting to God.

 

Again, this is only true of the Sunnis aware of the message of ghadeer, thaqalain, and Ali Mawla.

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We dont need Ali ra to follow Muhammed saw due to the fact that the last Messenger and Prophet was and is Muhammed saw.

But brother, thats is plain incorrect, even for your school of thought. If you were to but open your eyes!

There is not a single Sunni with half a mind that would say that we don't need the sahabas since they are considered the foundation of the deen, the ones that transmitted the sunnah to us. In that case, how about the greatest of Sahabas? his brother? His nafs, his wasi and the walking Quran?

What about the hadith of the two weighty things? Quran and ahlel bayt? hold on to them BOTH so you may never go astray. A clear prophetic injuction to hold on to Ali alongside the quran for guidance.

I am the city of knowledge and Ali is it's gate, Whoever wishes to enter the City Must come to the Gate.

Refusal to acknowledge the sole purpose behind these statements, i.e mastership of Ali ans his family is tantamount to the the kind of denial of clear divine orders brother SFTL was talking about.

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Look. The Usool al-Deen are five: Tawheed, Adala, Nubuwwah, Immamah, Qiyamah,.

 

In order to be a Muslim, you must believe in Tawheed, Nubuwwah and Qiyamah. The other two are Usool al-Madhab.

 

Are Sunnis considered kuffar? I think the majority opinion will tell you they are treated like kuffar in the afterlife.

 

Some ahadith on this -

 

8 – And in al-Khisal from his father from Sa`d b. `Abdullah from `Ali b. Isma`il al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. Sinan from Abu Malik al-Juhani. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: Three whom Allah will not speak to them on the day of the resurrection, and not look to them, and not purify them, and for them is a painful punishment: One who claims an imam whose Imamate is not from Allah, and one who denies an Imam whose Imamate is from Allah, and one who claims that (either of) them have a share in Islam.

11 – And in `Iqab al-A`mal from his father from Sa`d from Ahmad b. Abi `Abdillah from `Isma`il b. Mihran from a man from Abu ‘l-Maghra from Dharih from Abu Hamza from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: From us is the Imam whose obedience is decreed. Whoever denies him dies as a Jew or as a Christian – (al-hadith)

 

18 – And in the book Ikmal ad-Deen from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Yahya from his father from `Abdullah b. Muhammad b. `Isa from al-Hasan b. Musa the wood merchant from more than one person from Marwan b. Muslim. He said: as-Sadiq Ja`far b. Muhammad عليهما السلام said: The Imam is a sign between Allah `azza wa jalla and His creation. So whoever recognizes him is a believer, and whoever denies him is a kafir. 

19 – And in al-`Ilal from his father from Sa`d from Ahmad b. Abi `Abdillah from Ibn Faddal from Tha`laba from `Amr b. Abi Nasr [`Umar b. Abi Nasr – in al-`Ilal] from Sadir. He said: Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said – in a hadith: Verily the knowledge that that the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله placed with `Ali عليه السلام (is) (?) whoever recognizes him is a believer and whoever denies him is a kafir. Then after him it was al-Hasan عليه السلام that was of that station – (al-hadith)

20 – And in al-I`tiqadat he said: as-Sadiq عليه السلام said: Whoever doubts in the kufr of our enemies and the oppressors of us, then he is a kafir.

21 – Furat b. Ibrahim al-Kufi in his Tafsir said: al-Husayn b. Sa`id [from Aban b. Taghlab – in the Tafsir] – mu`an`anan (an expression Furat uses when shorten the isnad between the shaykh narrating to him up to the Imam) – from Abu `Abdillah Ja`far b. Muhammad as-Sadiq عليه السلام. He said: When this ayat “There is not one of the People of the Book but will assuredly believe in him” (4:159). He said: The Messsenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله said: Not one rejects [Not one will remain who rejects – in the Tafsir] what was mentioned about `Isa b. Maryam عليه السلام but that he be a kafir, and not one rejects what the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said regarding `Ali b. Abi Talib عليه السلام but that he is a kafir.

27 - `Ali b. Muhammad the silk dealer in al-Kifaya from Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn b. Babuwayh from `Ali b. Ahmad b. `Imran [`Ali b. Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Imran the flour merchant – in al-Kifaya] from Muhammad b. Abi `Abdillah from Musa b. `Imran from al-Husayn b. Yazid from al-Hasan b. `Ali b. Abi Hamza [al-Husayn b. `Ali b. Abi Hamza – in al-Kifaya] from his father from Yahya b. al-Qasim [Yahya b. Abi ‘l-Qasim – in al-Kifaya] from Ja`far b. Muhammad from his fathers from the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله. He said: The Imams after me are twelve. The first of them is `Ali b. Abi Talib and the last of them is the Qa’im –until he said: The one who acknowledges them is a believer, and the deniar of them is a kafir.

28 – And from Abu ‘l-Mufaddal from `Abdullah b. `Amir [`Abdullah b. Ahmad b. `Amir – in Kifaya] from `Ahmad b. `Abdan (?) from Sahl b. Sayfi (?) from Musa b. `Abd Rabbih from al-Husayn b. `Ali عليهما السلام from the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله in a hadith wherein he said: Whoever claims that he loves the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله and does not love the Wasi, then he has lied. And whoever claims that he recognizes the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله and does not recognize the Wasi, then he has become a kafir.

29 – And from al-Husayn b. `Ali [al-Hasan b. `Ali – in Kifaya] from at-Talla`ukbari from al-Husayn b. Hamdan from `Uthman b. Sa`d [`Uthman b. Sa`id –in Kifaya] from Muhammad b. Mihran from Muhammad b. Isma`il from Khalid b. Mufallisfrom Na`im b. Ja`far from Abu Hamza ath-Thumali from Abu Khalid al-Kabuli from `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام. He said: I said to him: How many Imams are there after you? He said: Eight, for verily the Imams after the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله are twelve – until he said: And whoever hates us and rejects us or rejects one from us, then he is a kafir in Allah and in His signs.

34 – And from Muhammad b. Ya`qub (in al-Kafi) from al-Husayn b. Muhammad from Mu`alla from Abu Dawud al-Mustariqq from `Ali b. Maymun from Ibn Abi Ya`fur. He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام saying: Three whom Allah will not speak to them on the day of the resurrection nor purify them, and for them is a painful punishment: One who claims Imamate from Allah (and) it is not for him, and one who denies an Imam from Allah, and one who claims that (either of) them have a share in Islam.

37 – And from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Sa`id from `Uqda from Muhammad b. al-Fudayl from Sa`dan b. Ishaq and Ahmad b. al-Husayn and Muhammad b. Ahmad b. al-Hasan all fo them from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from al-`Ala b. Razin [`Ali b. Ri’ab – in al-Ghayba] from Muhammad b. Muslimfrom Abu Ja`far عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: Whoever enters upon the morning from this Umma while he has no Imam from Allah, he enters upon the morning errant, confused, astray. If he dies upon this state, he dies the death of kufr and hypocracy.

38 – And by the isnad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Abu Ayyub from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: What do you regard to be the state of someone who denies an Imam from you? So he said: Whoever denies an Imam from the Imams [Allah – in al-Ghayba] and disassociates from him and from his religion, then he is a kafir [and an apostate] from Islam. For, the Imam is from Allah, and his religion is the religion of Allah, and whoever disassociates from the religion of Allah then his blood is halal in that state, unless he returns or repents to Allah from what he said.

43 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Salih b. as-Sindi from Ja`far b. Bashir from Abu Salama from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام in a hadith wherein he said: Whoever recognizes us is a believer, and whoever denies us is a kafir, and whoever does not recognize us and does not deny us is astray.

48 – And from al-Husayn b. Muhammad from Mu`alla b. Muhammad from Muhammad b. Jumhur from Yunus from Hammad b. `Uthman from al-Fudayl b. Yassar from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام. He said: Verily Allah `azza wa jalla set `Ali عليه السلام as a sign between Him and His creation. So whoever recognizes him is a believer and whoever denies him is a kafir. And whoever is ignorant of him is astray, and whoever sets something with him is a mushrik. And whoever comes with his walayat enters the Garden.

49 – And from al-Husayn b. Muhammad from Mu`alla b. Muhammad from al-Washsha from `Abdullah b. Sinan from Abu Hamza. He said: I heard Abu Ja`far عليه السلام saying: Verily `Ali عليه السلام is a gate that Allah `azza wa jalla opened. So whoever enters it is a believer. And whoever exits from it is a kafir.

 

 

Courtesy of a Haydar Husayn 


Whatever you believe, Sunnis are our brothers in this life. We have to respect them regardless of the difference of our beliefs. For all we know, both Sunnis (at least al-Azhar does) and Shi'a regard each other as Muslims, who are under the Laws of Islam. What ever happens in Yawm al-Qiyamah, we'll see.

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As I stated, the laws of Islam applies to Sunnis no matter what. There is the Islam religion by which people are known by, and this just takes anyone who accepts one God and Mohammad as his Messenger. 

 

However, when Quran talks about submitting to God, that is where you need to submit to the Imams, and even that is not sufficient if it's only done by declaring them as Imams and adopting outwards actions. 

 

From Misbahal shariah:

 

Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,
 

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

 
that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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Look. The Usool al-Deen are five: Tawheed, Adala, Nubuwwah, Immamah, Qiyamah,.

 

In order to be a Muslim, you must believe in Tawheed, Nubuwwah and Qiyamah. The other two are Usool al-Madhab.

 

Are Sunnis considered kuffar? I think the majority opinion will tell you they are treated like kuffar in the afterlife.

 

Some ahadith on this -

 

Courtesy of a Haydar Husayn 

Whatever you believe, Sunnis are our brothers in this life. We have to respect them regardless of the difference of our beliefs. For all we know, both Sunnis (at least al-Azhar does) and Shi'a regard each other as Muslims, who are under the Laws of Islam. What ever happens in Yawm al-Qiyamah, we'll see.

 

But brother, thats is plain incorrect, even for your school of thought. If you were to but open your eyes!

There is not a single Sunni with half a mind that would say that we don't need the sahabas since they are considered the foundation of the deen, the ones that transmitted the sunnah to us. In that case, how about the greatest of Sahabas? his brother? His nafs, his wasi and the walking Quran?

What about the hadith of the two weighty things? Quran and ahlel bayt? hold on to them BOTH so you may never go astray. A clear prophetic injuction to hold on to Ali alongside the quran for guidance.

I am the city of knowledge and Ali is it's gate, Whoever wishes to enter the City Must come to the Gate.

Refusal to acknowledge the sole purpose behind these statements, i.e mastership of Ali ans his family is tantamount to the the kind of denial of clear divine orders brother SFTL was talking about.

I think its speaks for itself that in order to know the Sunna we need the Sahaba. The problem is, you like to think Ali ra is the only one and his seed are the only ones that can guide the muslims. Which is ignorant to say at least. The difference between any muslim is his faith in Allah swt not his bloodline or his heritage or his lastname or the color of his skin. Lets agree to disagree? You have your Imam(Mahdi) and i have mine Imam Muhammed saw.

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As I stated, the laws of Islam applies to Sunnis no matter what. There is the Islam religion by which people are known by, and this just takes anyone who accepts one God and Mohammad as his Messenger. 

 

However, when Quran talks about submitting to God, that is where you need to submit to the Imams, and even that is not sufficient if it's only done by declaring them as Imams and adopting outwards actions. 

 

From Misbahal shariah:

 

Following the example of another is nothing more than what has been bestowed upon the spirit at its origin, when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity. Following a model, however, does not consist of adopting the marks of outward actions and claiming descent from the awliya' of the faith from among the wise and the Imams. As Allah said,

 

The day when We will call every people by their Imam. (17:71)

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ

 

that is, whoever follows someone with effacement is pure.

If i go to hell for only submitting to the Creator of Mankind than so be it. I refuse to bow down, or to give praises or to pray to someone just because he was born into a family that happens to be connected to the Messenger and Prophet of Islaam.

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I think its speaks for itself that in order to know the Sunna we need the Sahaba. The problem is, you like to think Ali ra is the only one and his seed are the only ones that can guide the muslims. Which is ignorant to say at least. The difference between any muslim is his faith in Allah swt not his bloodline or his heritage or his lastname or the color of his skin. Lets agree to disagree? You have your Imam(Mahdi) and i have mine Imam Muhammed saw.

 

What about the hadith of the 12 successors, which says all of them are from Quraysh? Would you take that as some sort tribalism?

 

And what do you think about this hadith? 

 

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مِهْرَانَ الرَّازِيُّ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ سَهْمٍ جَمِيعًا، عَنْ الْوَلِيدِ، قَالَ ابْنُ مِهْرَانَ: حَدَّثَنَا الْوَلِيدُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا الْأَوْزَاعِيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي عَمَّارٍ شَدَّادٍ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ وَاثِلَةَ بْنَ الْأَسْقَعِ، يَقُولُ: سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ (ص) يَقُولُ: ” إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَى كِنَانَةَ مِنْ وَلَدِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، وَاصْطَفَى قُرَيْشًا مِنْ كِنَانَةَ، وَاصْطَفَى مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ، وَاصْطَفَانِي مِنْ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ “

Edited by al-Ibrahimi
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We dont need Ali ra to follow Muhammed saw due to the fact that the last Messenger and Prophet was and is Muhammed saw. If you are referring to the Caliphate, all i can say is Allahu A3lem. Abu Bakr ra, Umar ra ruled by the Sunna of the Prophet saw and the Quran same goes for Ali ra. If it was such a big disagreement that it would make the difference between heaven and hell, wouldnt Ali ra said something to warn the majority that chose for Abu Bakr ra? The truth is Muhammed saw talked highly about every Sahaba, because they were devout and committed themselves to the cause of Allah swt. And Ali ra fellt about it the same way hence why he named even his children to the Amir al Moominien before him(Umar ra). He had no grudge against him unlike the Shia do today and exaggerate everything. 

This is what Umar said when he and his friends did not let Muhammad (PBUH) to write down his testament, according to Sahih Bukhari.

Yes you are open to believe that Muhammad (PBUH) said "If there were a prophet after me that would be Umar" while even some fair Sunni scholars are amazed because of this hadith because Umar used to be a Mushrik, how can a Mushrik becomes a prophet !!! Muslims would escape from Umar when he used to be a Mushrik. It is easy for you to believe such things, but when it comes to Ali, you deny everything.

Your problem is Ali, is not it !?

When they made their coup and attacked home of Fatima and frightened people to obey them, still they are doing the same !

Even when we ask ISIL "why do you burn people alive ?" ISIL says "Also Abubakr burnt people alive !" 

All of this mess is because of Saghifah and denying the command of Muhammad PBUH and standing against Muhammad and his successors.

Which Sunnah are you speaking about ? Sunnah which comes from four different imams with different views and ideas !

What kind of God is this and what kind of prophet Muhammad was that they did not think about so many differences and sects that might emerge in Islam.

However evidences show that they knew and said, according to Sahih Bukhari Muhammad said "72 sects will emerge in Islam and only one of it is in heaven." and that a considerable amount of Sahabies are in hell.

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What about the hadith of the 12 successors, which says all of them are from Quraysh? Would you take that as some sort tribalism?

 

And what do you think about this hadith? 

 

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ مِهْرَانَ الرَّازِيُّ، وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ سَهْمٍ جَمِيعًا، عَنْ الْوَلِيدِ، قَالَ ابْنُ مِهْرَانَ: حَدَّثَنَا الْوَلِيدُ بْنُ مُسْلِمٍ، حَدَّثَنَا الْأَوْزَاعِيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي عَمَّارٍ شَدَّادٍ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ وَاثِلَةَ بْنَ الْأَسْقَعِ، يَقُولُ: سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ (ص) يَقُولُ: ” إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَى كِنَانَةَ مِنْ وَلَدِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، وَاصْطَفَى قُرَيْشًا مِنْ كِنَانَةَ، وَاصْطَفَى مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ، وَاصْطَفَانِي مِنْ بَنِي هَاشِمٍ “

Not really, Islam back then was small and limited to the people in Medina and Mecca. It would make more sense if the leader of the Ummah is from Quraysh. Its a form of tribalism in a time where only a small amount of tribes were muslims.

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