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Mohammadi_follower

Umar Burnt Fatima's House According To Bukhari ?

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it only takes a baby to realize that either you hate Fatima

A very childish and kneejerk conclusion. Just because someone does not suscribe to your version of the story does not mean that he/she hates Fatima. I mean seriously.....

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(salam)

Brother you are really funny you said just because tabari said something doesn't make it true, but when ONE shia scholar says something it suddenly becomes the pilars of the shia faith. You still haven't answered my question why did Fatima die so young?

Once someone answers that question with sources from ANY book maybe we can discuss this properly

(salam)

Please quote these references from Tutsi and others so we can actually debating rather than saying "if" this hadith exist and so on

 

i said A SHIA SCHOLAR and i did not mean he speaks for all shiites, if you felt that way then it`s your misunderstanding.

 

how am i supposed to give the exact reason for the death of Fatimah al zahra (May Allah be well pleased with her) ??? do you even realize how childish your request it ? how could someone tell you the exact reason for the death of someone who lived 1400 years ago ?

 

just because someone does not agrees that Fatimah (May Allah be pleased with her) was murdered it doesn`t mean he/she hates her. you are really using childish logic here. 

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i said A SHIA SCHOLAR and i did not mean he speaks for all shiites, if you felt that way then it`s your misunderstanding.

how am i supposed to give the exact reason for the death of Fatimah al zahra (May Allah be well pleased with her) ??? do you even realize how childish your request it ? how could someone tell you the exact reason for the death of someone who lived 1400 years ago ?

just because someone does not agrees that Fatimah (May Allah be pleased with her) was murdered it doesn`t mean he/she hates her. you are really using childish logic here.

Firstly I said either you hate her OR SOMEONE IS HIDING SOMETHING FROM YOU

Stop cutting out that part of the quote its getting annoying and I seem like an idiot

Secondly you said that its baby like to ask how someone died 1400 years ago but if I ask you about abu bakr , umar and uthman you would know straight away but if I ask about how Fatima (A) died who is better than them and there daughters in every single way you don't know ?

All I'm asking for is ONE hadith and I don't care it can even be from yazid(L) You will see how hard they tried to conceal the death of Fatima (A) in the hadith books.

And your trying to say i don't have logic

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Firstly I said either you hate her OR SOMEONE IS HIDING SOMETHING FROM YOU

Stop cutting out that part of the quote its getting annoying and I seem like an idiot

Secondly you said that its baby like to ask how someone died 1400 years ago but if I ask you about abu bakr , umar and uthman you would know straight away but if I ask about how Fatima Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã died who is better than them and there daughters in every single way you don't know ?

All I'm asking for is ONE hadith and I don't care it can even be from yazid(L) You will see how hard they tried to conceal the death of Fatima Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã in the hadith books.

And your trying to say i don't have logic

 

you are asking about the exact cause of her death how is it possible for anyone to determine that now ? Umar (RA) and Uthman (RA) was martyred while Abu Bakr (RA) fell sick before he passed.it may have been that she (May Allah be pleased with her) fell sick because she mourned the death of Prophet (pbuh) a lot as we find it in some narrations. we can`t say for sure but just because we don`t know the cause of her death it does not mean she was murererd. this is what i called childish reasoning.

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it may have been that she (May Allah be pleased with her) fell sick because she mourned the death of Prophet (pbuh) a lot as we find it in some narrations

 

(wasalam),

 

Can you please quote and reference the Shī'a narrations that state she fell sick due to mourning for the prophet [s.a.w.a.w.s]? If possible provide the original Arabic text. Thanks.

_______________________ 

Edited by Jaafar Al-Shibli

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(salam)

Please quote these references from Tutsi and others so we can actually debating rather than saying "if" this hadith exist and so on

 
و روى أن عمر تزوج أم كلثوم بنت على عليه السلام

“And it is narrated that `Umar married Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام)

Source:

1.     Al-Toosi, Al-MabsooT, vol. 4, pg. 272

Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa (d. 436 AH) has also talks about another version that how it is “attested” in the SaHeeH narration from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام).
ويشهد بصحته ما روي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام
Source:
1.     Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, pg. 148 - 150
 
 
From Sulaymaan bin Khaalid he said: “I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) about a woman whose husband dies, where should she do her `iddah, in the house of her husband, or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, wherever she wants”, then he (عليه السلام) said: “That `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”
Source:

1.     Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable) 

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 197

2.       Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic) 

à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89

3.       Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad
à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28
à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

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و روى أن عمر تزوج أم كلثوم بنت على عليه السلام

“And it is narrated that `Umar married Umm Kulthoom, daughter of `Alee (عليه السلام)”

Source:

1. Al-Toosi, Al-MabsooT, vol. 4, pg. 272

Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa (d. 436 AH) has also talks about another version that how it is “attested” in the SaHeeH narration from Abee `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام).

ويشهد بصحته ما روي عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام

Source:

1. Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, Risaa’il Al-Shareef Al-MurtaDa, pg. 148 - 150

From Sulaymaan bin Khaalid he said: “I asked Abaa `Abd Allaah (عليه السلام) about a woman whose husband dies, where should she do her `iddah, in the house of her husband, or wherever she wants? He (عليه السلام) said: “Yes, wherever she wants”, then he (عليه السلام) said: “That `Alee (عليه السلام) brought Umm Kulthoom to his home when she became free, when `Umar died”

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 6, pg. 115, hadeeth # 1

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Muwaththaq (Reliable)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 21, pg. 197

2. Al-Majlisi I (Al-Majlisi’s Father) said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

à RawDah Al-Muttaqqoon, vol. 9, pg. 89

3. Al-Meelaanee said this hadeeth has a SaHeeH Sanad

à Tazawwaj Umm Kulthoom with `Umar, pg. 28

à MaHaaDiraat fee Al-`Itiqaadaat, vol. 2, pg. 696

(Salam)

Firstly From the same website you quoted it says it was forced upon them so it makes umar look more like someone who oppressed Ali not who had a kind relationship with him

I think we can conclude by looking at the website I linked and the website you quoted that even if the marriage even took place it doesn't prove anything except that umar oppressed the ahlul bayt more than we thought

you are asking about the exact cause of her death how is it possible for anyone to determine that now ? Umar (RA) and Uthman (RA) was martyred while Abu Bakr (RA) fell sick before he passed.it may have been that she (May Allah be pleased with her) fell sick because she mourned the death of Prophet (pbuh) a lot as we find it in some narrations. we can`t say for sure but just because we don`t know the cause of her death it does not mean she was murererd. this is what i called childish reasoning.

(Salam)

Just mention ONE of them is it really that hard it's not like I am asking a trick question. I would like to see what ahlul sunah say about her death

Also for the brother who said find it in shia books are you trying to kill him he can't even post one hadith how do you expect them to post 2!

Edited by Mohammed72

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(salam)

Firstly From the same website you quoted it says it was forced upon them so it makes umar look more like someone who oppressed Ali not who had a kind relationship with him

I think we can conclude by looking at the website I linked and the website you quoted that even if the marriage even took place it doesn't prove anything except that umar oppressed the ahlul bayt more than we thought

 

I think that i have passed my first test of giving references that you required, may it be from a website or a book (because it is all over the place... i first read about them in a book "ayat-e-bayyinat" by nawab mohsin-ul-mulk).

 

Now your speculation about Umar's (ra) ability to intimidate Ali (ra) and ahle-bait (as)! it is really shameful to even consider Sher-e-khuda being so weak... nobody, not even the entire world could make Ali (ra) do something which was not right. how can you even consider such absurdity about Ali (as)?

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I think that i have passed my first test of giving references that you required, may it be from a website or a book (because it is all over the place... i first read about them in a book "ayat-e-bayyinat" by nawab mohsin-ul-mulk).

Now your speculation about Umar's (ra) ability to intimidate Ali (ra) and ahle-bait (as)! it is really shameful to even consider Sher-e-khuda being so weak... nobody, not even the entire world could make Ali (ra) do something which was not right. how can you even consider such absurdity about Ali (as)?

Tell me if you had a daughter and either she would be orphaned, killed or married a unjust man

What would you do?

I think it answers itself

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Salam , I often see on shia website that this story is in Bukhari but sunni say it is not.

Could anyone screen a Bukhari book with this story for me ?

 

Thanks.

So which Shia website did you see this at??? And did that website quote the reference from Bukhari???

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Brother Muhammad 72, you said;

"Just mention ONE of them is it really that hard it's not like I am asking a trick question. I would like to see what ahlul sunah say about her death",

Well there has to be something according to the Ahle Sunnah. Narrations from Abu Bakar or Umar, may be Usman, Aisha or Hifza or anyone else who was around at that time. There were plenty of people around at that time.

So someone must have said something!

One other thing, when did the Marriage of Ali's daughter to Umar take place??? I here that Umar was 67 when he died and Ali's daughter was 14 at that time. I was told by brother Hani on a different forum that Umme Kulsoom was 11 when Umar married her. But Abu Bakar and Umar did ask the Prophet (pbuh) for Fatima's hand in marriage but the Prophet (pbuh) told them that she was too young to be married????

Brother Faris 88, you said;

"you are asking about the exact cause of her death how is it possible for anyone to determine that now ? Umar and Uthman was martyred while Abu Bakr fell sick before he passed.it may have been that she (May Allah be pleased with her) fell sick because she mourned the death of Prophet a lot as we find it in some narrations. we can`t say for sure but just because we don`t know the cause of her death it does not mean she was murererd. this is what i called childish reasoning",

Firstly we know how the Prophet (pbuh), Abu Bakar, Umar, Usman, Ali, Hussain and many others died but when it comes to Fatimah, Hassan and Aisha, how these people died there is a controversy, it comes in to the grey area. What is the Ahle Sunnah perspective, not just on Fatimah but Hassan and Aisha too. How did they really die??? What happened??? There has to be something!

Secondly it is clear that certain people were not present in the gathering at Sakeefa and they did not take part in that meeting, so therefore they opposed the decision made in Sakeefa and refused to accept Abu Bakar as Khalifa.

Just to cut it short these companions who opposed, gathered at the house of Ali. Now it is clear and accepted that the opposition was present, the disagreement and differences were there and it is also clear and accepted that threats were made by Umar to those who opposed.

It is clear and accepted that threatening behaviour was used to curb or to try and bring in line the opposition to the decision in Sakeefa. But the question is, did the matter go further??? It came this far but did it go ahead??? were these threats carried out or not???

Was violence used against the opposition to such an extent that the treats that were made were carried out and the door of the house was burned down and in the whole process, in this raid and the way it was carried out, did Fatima get injured???

Did the honourable lady get caught up in all this???

Edited by Ameen

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