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In the Name of God بسم الله
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placid

James --- The Amazing Book Of Wisdom

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Before we analyze that verse lets go back to the beginning of Surah 2, and see the definite Faith and trust required by those who find the path of righteousness.
--- And of those who have assurance of going to heaven.

2 This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
3 Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
4 And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter
5 These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.

2 The Scripture whereof there is NO DOUBT, --- a GUIDANCE (guidebook) to the righteous.
3 Who believe the UNSEEN (the Spiritual realm of God) ---who worship God, and spend, or are generous with, what God has given them.
4 Who believe what is revealed to Muhammad, --- (present)
--- And that which was revealed before him, --- (past)
--- And those who are CERTAIN of the Hereafter, --- (future)
5 They depend on GUIDANCE from their Lord, --- (total surrender to His will). --- THESE ARE THE SUCCESSFUL.

Now who should have been the first one who practiced this kind of dedication and obedience to the Lord, that this should be written so plainly in the first verses of Surah 2?

The answer is in Surah 42:
52 And thus have We (God) inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.

Various times we find the word Faith with a capital F, because Faith is the Power in the life of the believer.
Muhammad was seeking to know the Faith of Abraham before the first appearance of Gabriel, --- and his search led him to this dedication to God.
--- It says, “We gave you a Spirit of Our command (a Spirit to dwell within). --- You knew not what the Scripture was, nor what Faith was, but We have made IT (the revelation of Scripture and Faith) a LIGHT whereby We GUIDE whom We will of Our servants.
And lo, you verily guide (men) to a right path, --- Yusuf Ali: --- A Straight Way."

This compares to the ministry of Jesus who said in Surah 3:
50 I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
51 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.

So Muhammad, who had the reputation of ‘the Trustworthy,’ --- was also trustworthy to God, and was led by the Spirit of God to guide men to the right path, or the Straight Way.

To begin with, he did not know the Scriptures, or what Faith was, but when he surrendered to God, he became the vessel God used, to bring these revelations to his people.

--- And I understand that the revelations came to him is a special Spiritual impartation to his intellect, as it says in the intro to Mr Pickthall’s translation.
Quote: “The words which came to him while in a state of trance are held sacred by the Muslims and are never confounded with those which he uttered when no physical change was apparent in him. --- These are the Sacred Book.”

So Muhammad was the Role Model, and demonstrated his Faith, did he not?

 

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So we have covered the ‘guidance’ to the righteous ones in verses 2-5 in Surah 2. --- Now, to see what Muhammad had to deal with, --- it is detailed in the next few verses, --- the unbelievers and disbelievers, --- and what their fate will be. --- You think God is tolerant? --- Read these verses:

2:6 As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
7 God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
8 Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in God and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
9 Fain would they deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
10 In their hearts is a disease; and God has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

14 When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."
15 God will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro). --- (As though they were on the end of a rope.)

21 O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness;


Verse 15, Pickthall: Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy. (Contempt of lawful authority; perverseness.)

--- So the condition of these is that they are spiritually dead in their trespasses and perverseness.

If we go all the way back to Adam, we find the beginning of disobedience to God in the Garden --- God said, “In the day that you eat of that tree, you shall surely die.”

So Adam and Eve died spiritually, they had to be put out of the garden, as it says in Surah 7:
21 And he (Satan) swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22 So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."
24 (God) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."
25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."
26 O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the 'raiment of righteousness,' - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!

23 --- They confessed their sin, (we have wronged our own souls), --- they repented of their sin and yielded to God for forgiveness and Mercy, or their souls would have been lost.

--- They were forgiven, but they were not restored to their former position in the Garden, nor could they ever go back because they had died spiritually.
So spiritual death, and physical death, came on all of mankind as children of Adam and Eve.

26 But the 'raiment of righteousness,' - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of God, that they may receive admonition!

So the ‘raiment of righteousness’ is required for those described in Surah 2:2-5, which gives one the ‘assurance of the Hereafter,' --- or to receive the promise given different places in the Quran, as it says in Surah 5:
85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with Gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

So next we will look at Surah 2:
28 Pickthall: How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.

 

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So next we will look at Surah 2:

28 Pickthall: How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.

2:2-5, First we looked at those who are righteous before God, and have an assurance of the Hereafter.

2:6-15, Then the unrighteous who reject Faith, and have no ‘spiritual life.’

This may come as a surprise to you because it is written in your Quran, that those who have no ‘spititual life’ are called dead (while they live).

Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

--- We can see more examples later, but the ‘natural man’ is ‘spiritually’ dead.

He has to have a conversion experience to be ‘made alive’ spiritually.

So in the verse it says, --- “You were (spiritually) dead, and He (God) gave you (spiritual) life, --- then He will give you death (natural death, the separation of body and spirit) --- but your soul is saved till the resurrection when you will get a spiritual heavenly body, --- and you will return to God.

Dead in the natural, --- made alive through repentance, --- will die again in the physical body, --- then made alive in a spiritual body, --- in which one is in harmony with God and His angels.

Here are the other Translations that I used before:

Yusuf Ali: How can ye reject the faith in God? - seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

Hilali Khan: How can you disbelieve in Allah? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.

Rodwell: How can ye withhold faith from God? Ye were dead and He gave you life; next He will cause you to die; next He will restore you to life: next shall ye return to Him!

Notice the pattern with Adam and Eve. --- God said, “In the day you eat of that tree, you will surely die.” --- And when they did, they died 'spiritually' --- they were cut off from God, until they came to Him in repentance of their sin. Surah 7:

23 They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

24 On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time."

25 He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

So God forgave them, and gave them ‘spiritual life’ as a result of their repentance and surrender with obedience again to His will.

--- God said, “There you will die, but you will be taken out (at last). --- At the time of resurrection when they would return to God.

--- The Scripture says, “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” --- So repentance and surrender to His will are necessary.

One more thought to consider from Ephesians 2:

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ.

--- (This is a picture of conversion from the world, to Faith in God, who makes us ‘alive’ in the Holy Spirit.)

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I want to add a few comparable verses from Surah 5:

65 If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.

66 If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

67 O Apostle! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And God will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For God guideth not those who reject Faith.

68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

69 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

--- There were covenants that were broken as the following verses say in Surah 2:

27 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.

28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.

We will try to analyze this next, as it mentions the believers and disbelievers among the Jews and Christians, and suggests in 67 that the message that Muhammad brings will add to ‘their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.’

--- But in all, the saved will be saved and the lost will be the losers.

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To analyze the verses from above, and notice the distinct messages.

5:65 “If only the People of the Book had BELIEVED and been RIGHTEOUS, We (God) should indeed have BLOTTED OUT THEIR INIQUITIES and ADMITTED THEM TO GARDENS OF BLISS.

66 If only they had STOOD FAST BY THE LAW, --- THE GOSPEL, and all THE REVELATIONS that was SENT TO THEM from their Lord (through the Prophets), they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.”

--- Usually the ‘People of the Book’ refers to the Jews who rejected God and broke His covenant in the OT, --- but when it refers to the People of the Gospel, it refers to Christians as well.

Notice how 65 mentions the same requirements as are listed in Surah 2:

2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;

3 Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

4 And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter

5 They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

--- 2 A Book of GUIDANCE to those who fear God (with reverential respect and worship).

--- 3 Who believe in the Unseen, --- the spiritual realm that is outside of ourselves. --- STEADFAST IN PRAYERS, --- and are OBEDIENT to God in what He has provided.

--- 4 WHO BELIEVE IN THE REVELATIONS, --- THE OT, --- and THE GOSPEL, --- and in their hearts they have GOD’S LAW, --- and THEY HAVE ASSURANCE OF THE HEREAFTER.

Notice from 65, --- ‘had they BELIEVED and been RIGHTEOUS," --- God would have ‘ADMITTED THEM TO GARDENS OF BLISS.’

66 Had they STOOD FAST (believed and been obedient) to THE LAW and THE GOSPEL, --- and THE REVELATIONS given through many Prophets, --- THEY WOULD HAVE ENJOYED HAPPINESS FROM EVERY SIDE.

Then it shows the division, --- THERE IS A PARTY ON THE RIGHT COURSE. --- but many of them follow an evil course.

5 Those who ARE ON TRUE GUIDANCE, are those who PROSPER (with the Lord.)

67 O Apostle! (Muhammad) proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And God will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For God guideth not those who reject Faith.

--- The instruction to Muhammad was to ‘PROCLAIM THE MESSAGE’ that God gave him, --- to the Jews, Christians and Muslims, --- WITH THE PROMISE THAT GOD WOULD PROTECT HIM. --- then it says, “For God guideth not THOSE WHO REJECT FAITH.”

--- (Are you getting the picture now? --- That God is giving the same message to all three groups, and it applies to all. --- Those who BELIEVE and are RIGHTEOUS are saved. --- those who REJECT FAITH are not.

68 Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." --- It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

This is an interesting verse as it is divided.

First part: --- You (Muhammad) say to (the Jews and Christians), --- You have no GROUNDS TO STAND ON, unless you stand on THE LAW (TORAH), THE GOSPEL, and the REVELATION that has come to you from your Lord. (The Lord of the Jews is Jehovah, the Lord of the Christians is Jesus Christ).

--- So this confirms that God through Gabriel is speaking to the Jews and Christians that they are to BELIEVE IN and OBEY the former Scriptures that were given to them.

Second part: “It is the revelation that cometh to thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord (through Gabriel), that increaseth in most of them (Jews, Christians, and Muslims), their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.” --- (Against Muhammad and the true believers.)

The final line again: “But sorrow not for (these) people WITHOUT FAITH.

69 Lo! those who BELIEVE, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever BELIEVES IN GOD and in THE LAST DAY and DOES WHAT IS RIGHT --- there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. --- (They are the ones who will enter THE GARDENS OF BLISS.

Placid

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To continue to analyze the verses from above and recognize who they were addressed to:

We ended with this verse which was written as a general statement:

5:69 Lo! those who BELIEVE, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever BELIEVES IN GOD and in THE LAST DAY and DOES WHAT IS RIGHT --- there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Some years ago when I was quoting the Quran I would say, “Muhammad said this,” or “Muhammad said that.”

It was Qa’im at the time who told me, --- “Don’t say, ‘Muhammad said,’ but say ‘the Quran said.’” --- So I learned that the Quran ‘speaks’ to the different individuals or groups as God speaks through Gabriel.

--- And it is understood that the Quran is the authority, and nothing can be more plain to Muslims than the beginning of Surah 2:

2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;

The verse above says all those who BELIEVE IN GOD and live according to their Faith, will receive their reward,

--- I want to show how the Quran again speaks to the Jews and Christians in these verses from Surah 2:

27 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers.

--- The Jews had made a solemn covenant with God, and many lived by it for many years, but gradually the newer generations began to break the covenant and ignore God’s laws, so they were rejected, --- and now the Jews at Madinah had all the history in the OT, and they still maintained an arrogance as though they had a position with God, though they were spiritually dead. --- The Jews had said ‘a messenger will come,’ and though they recognized Muhammad as that ‘messenger,’ they began to rebel against his teaching. --- Had the Jews been true believers, they would have supported Muhammad, but they ‘made mischief in the land’ --- and because they didn’t renew Faith in God, they were the losers. --- They knew what was right but didn’t do it.

And what did the Christians do? --- The Gospel had gone out from Jerusalem and little Churches were started in cities, and they were doing what God led them to do, but the Roman Government was persecuting them. --- About 300 AD some Christian leaders compromised with Rome, and in exchange for no more persecution, they agreed to form a new Church under the leadership of Rome. --- So they started the Roman Catholic Church, --- (Catholic, means ‘universal’ so you can see where this was going.)

--- Because the Christian leaders DID NOT REMAIN STEADFAST, --- they were now under Roman domination, and this is when they fashioned the Church after Judaism, with a hierarchy with priests, cardinals, and eventually a Pope.

They wrote new doctrines including the faulty ‘trinity doctrine’ --- and then they began to force them on all the local Churches.

There is a verse that tells what went wrong and it is found in Surah 57:

26 We (God) verily sent Noah and Abraham and placed the Prophethood and the Scriptures among their seed.

27 Pickthall: Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. --- But monasticism they invented - We ordained it not for them - only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers.

Yusuf Ali: Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. --- But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.

Rather than young preachers teaching the Gospel from the Scriptures, the Roman Church started monasteries for them to learn the new doctrines before they became preachers and teachers, --- so they were misled from the beginning.

Notice this: “We (God) commanded only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of God; but THAT they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.”

--- (Another thing was that these young priests were not allowed to marry but these monasteries housed all of the men together. --- So none of this was according to God’s will --- and it says, “Yet We (God) bestowed on those among them WHO BELIEVED their due reward, --- but many of them are rebellious transgressors, (losers).

And so the course of history changed for the local Evangelical congregations.

And this verse again in Surah 2:

28 “How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.”

This is to the Jews and Christians who had a covenant agreement with God, and departed from it. --- And the generations following knew the truth, ---that all men are spiritually dead, and have to come to God in repentance and Faith to receive that spiritual life. --- Then they go through natural death and are resurrected to a new life with God.

That explains the verse, --- but the Jews developed 'man-made' laws, and the Roman Church dominated with their new doctrines, --- so both were losers, --- (except for the true believers among them who will not lose their reward).

--- However, this is all written early in the Quran because it applies to Muslims as well. --- But there is more to consider.

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I hope that I wasn't too harsh but there's no room for the Trinity in the Qur'an and wasn't even defined until the Nicene Creed in 325 A.D., centuries after Jesus revealed the Injil.

You are confusing Doctrine with Dogma.

Doctrine is something that has and is always believed by the Church.

Dogma is something that is officially pronounced as binding on the faithful.

The Trinity has always been a belief (Doctrine) of the Church.

A doctrine becomes Dogmatised when It is questioned or debate arises over it.

A group called the Arians within the church started saying that Jesus is not God and man but a created being.

Thus at the council of Nicea as you rightly pointed the arian heresy was quashed and the Trinity was Dogmatised.

This is why now, ALL Churches, Catholic, Orthodox and all Mainstream Protestant churches believe in the Trinity because it was set in Stone (Dogmatised) in 325AD by the Catholic Church.

Placid is one of the few (less than 5%) of 'Christians' that do not believe in the Trinity.

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Hi Gaius I. Caesar,

Sorry, some of my Posts get a little longer than I plan, but I want to have you see how much the Quran says about the Jews and Christians, --- that would be lightly passed over by a casual reader.

To look again at these two verses, you will see what I mean in Surah 2:
27 Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: THESE are they who ARE THE LOSERS.

28 “How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.”
28 (Yusuf Ali): How can ye reject the faith in God? - seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

27 --- “Those who break the covenant of God after ratifying it,” --- cannot refer to the Muslims because they have just come to Madinah and are getting established, so they haven’t had any covenants to break. --- The teaching is very clear, --- IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, you will receive His blessing.

And earlier it said this in Surah 2:
6 ---“AS TO THOSE WHO REJECT FAITH, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.”

--- So here we have three groups that the Quran says are losers

The Jews who broke the covenant and didn’t repent and return to God,
The Christians that were diverted from following and teaching the Gospel, but followed a new philosophy,
--- And residents in Madinah and area, that heard Muhammad giving the same message as was given in the former Scriptures, and wouldn’t believe it.

--- I say it is the same message of Salvation through Faith in God and obedience in doing His ‘good works.’ (After ‘Surrendering unto Him.’) --- Notice the different response from the Jews and Christians, in Surah 5:

82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

--- So, you see, the Jews heard the message and rejected it, so they did not receive the Promise of Eternal life.

The Christians were ‘teary-eyed’ with joy when they heard the same ‘truths’ that they already believed. --- And what was their response?


84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

--- This is the reward of those who BELIEVE IN GOD AND DO HIS GOOD WORKS, --- for Jews, Christians and Muslims, --- then this:

86 But those who REJECT FAITH AND BELIEVE NOT OUR SIGNS, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.
--- So this applies to all the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all sects that do not BELIEVE IN GOD and obey His word.

And I want you to notice, --- this is what the Quran says, is it not?


 

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Hi,

Quote from Post 147:
Doctrine is something that has and is always believed by the Church.

Response: --- Yes, Doctrine is ‘a teaching,’ as on the Day of Pentecost when some 3000 believed, and it says in Acts 2:
41 “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.”

Quote: Dogma is something that is officially pronounced as binding on the faithful.
The Trinity has always been a belief (Doctrine) of the Church.
A doctrine becomes Dogmatised when It is questioned or debate arises over it.

Response: --- Since the teaching of a trinity (tri-unity of god, saying they are co-equal), is not found in the NT, it cannot be said that it was a doctrine (teaching) of the Scriptures, --- so it was made a Doctrine at the meeting in 325, was it not?
--- “A doctrine becomes Dogmatized when it is questioned or debated,” --- So I understand that after debate with all the counsellors (not all of whom were in favor to start with), --- it was then made a Dogma that all Catholics had to believe, and as a Dogma of the Roman Catholic (universal) Church, it was imposed on the small local Churches to have them believe the same.
Most of them accepted it under pressure, but in a lot of Churches it is considered as a tradition and seldom preached on.

--- After the Reformation, Martin Luther said this in a sermon:
Quote: --- Today we celebrate the festival of the Holy Trinity, to which we must briefly allude, so that we may not celebrate it in vain. It is indeed true that the name "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man. For this reason it sounds somewhat cold and we had better speak of "God" than of the "Trinity."
--- The Churches after the reformation, --- if they returned to ‘teaching the Scripture,’ would honor the trinity and use the name, --- but not understand it, Martin Luther also said:
Quote: The great universities have invented manifold distinctions, dreams and fictions by means of which they would explain the Holy Trinity, and have made fools of themselves.

--- In our own Church we have Trinitarians and we have good fellowship because Salvation comes by Faith in God, and the teaching of Jesus, John 5:
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

We have Catholic friends and relatives and I know there are saved people in their Churches, because Salvation is the relationship between the person and God. --- A Church is not a vehicle to send you to heaven, --- It is a meetingplace where you learn Faith in God, --- and trust your life to Him, and He conveys you to heaven..

In my studies, I can only go with what it says in the Scriptures, --- and the Quran. --- If somebody wants to add to them, then they are on their own.

Quote: A group called the Arians within the church started saying that Jesus is not God and man but a created being.
Thus at the council of Nicea as you rightly pointed the arian heresy was quashed and the Trinity was Dogmatised.

Response: --- Here is where the real confusion lies because of a lack of understanding. The physical Jesus could not have existed before the Virgin Mary, because her DNA would be in His flesh and blood body, --- would it not?

I believe Arian said “There was a time before the ‘Word,’ when God was alone.”
This is the confusion because God said, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, --- All things were made through Him (the Word, Logos)

--- I won’t take time to explain it now but God created orders of angels, and one of them was the Cherubim, who were called ‘Morning Stars, or Sons of God,’ and ‘Shining Ones.” In the Book of Job, God asks Job a question in Job 38:
7 “Where were you when the Morning Stars sang together,and all the Sons of God shouted for joy?”

From that order of angels came the Shining one, the Lucifer. ‘The anointed Cherub.' Ezekiel 28:14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers;
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you"

So two things we notice, --- he was a created being (from the Cherubim angels) and iniquity developed IN HIM, --- BECAUSE OF THE PRIDE OF HIS POSITION. --- this leader, the Lucifer (the President of the Cherubim angels) was cast out of heaven, and another took his place as leader, --- This one was anointed as the 'Son of God' to lead the angels in truth and righteousness, And this was “The Word,” ,

This is why “The Word” was the true Son of God from before the foundation of our world. --- It said of this Son of God, in Psalm 45:
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

This speaks of the former creation of the Cherubim angels. --- When Satan was cast out and took a third of the angels with him, there was the ‘choosing’ of a new leader, who was righteous, and worthy of the position of the Bright Morning Star, the Light of the world, and the anointed ‘Son of God.’

And notice this: --- “Anointed with the oil of gladness MORE THAT YOUR COMPANIONS.” --- So Notice that there was an ‘election’ and He was chosen ‘above His companions.’ --- Jesus was not chosen from among others, but Jesus was unique, --- one of a kind. --- A special vessel --- for the true Son of God, ‘the Word,’ to come to earth and 'indwell.'

As well as John 1:14 saying, The Word became flesh and dwelt among us,--- we find this written in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.

--- (There is much more to explain about this if anyone is interested.)

 

 

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I need to explain a little further or this will not be understood. --- I said,
---This is why “The Word” was the true Son of God, from before the foundation of our world. --- It said of this Son, in Psalm 45:
6 "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

To clarify again that there is only One Almighty God, --- but the Word was 'called' God a few times --- and there is a reason for it.

The Word from heaven was a Spiritual being and could not be seen, --- even as Satan, the spiritual being that was cast out of heaven, cannot be seen, Surah 7:
16 He (Satan) said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:
17 "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."

But the Word, 'the anointed Son from heaven' could also come to earth, --- but needed a vessel through which to speak, to accomplish God's purposes.

The best example is the ‘burning bush' in Exodus 3:
2 So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”
6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

So here, the Word spoke as God and said, “I am the God of your father --- the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” --- So the Word represented God. --- Notice that the Word spoke from the burning bush, so the burning bush was the ‘vessel’ that the Word used to communicate to Moses.

Again in the verse above in Psalm 45:6 it refers to the Word as God:
It repeats this Scripture in Hebrews 1, but it is addressed to the Son:
1:8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
 
--- (Again the term, 'more than your companions,' --- proves it was not Jesus, as He was not 'chosen from among others.')

So here, --- it is God the Father, saying to the Son (the Word)
--- "Your throne is forever and ever (in the kingdom of heaven,
And I (Your God) have anointed You." --- So the Word represents God on earth, and says to Moses, “I am the God of Abraham.”

This is not any second part of a trinity, but the Son, who was obedient to the Father. --- The great injustice that the ‘trinity doctrine’ does is to say that Jesus is the Word, therefore, Jesus is God, --- and to exalt the human Jesus to be the Word, through whom all things were made. --- Notice John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Here again the Word is called God, through whom all things (pertaining to our world) were made.
The Word (Logos) was the ‘creative power of God.’ --- Notice this in Genesis 1:
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
--- So the Word brought light into its place, --- And this same Word, speaking through the Vessel Jesus, said in John 8:12 “I am the Light of the World. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” 

--- Also the Word clarified something else, later in John 8:
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He (your Messiah), you will die in your sins.”
--- This was the Word speaking through Jesus to say, “I am from above,” --- because Jesus was not from above but was born on earth, --- so He too, was from beneath, was He not? --- But He was the Vessel the Word was speaking through.

When the Jews kept trying to accuse Him, He said later in the chapter:
56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

--- This again was the Word speaking through Jesus, --- The same words that were given to Moses before he went to the Hebrew people in Egypt, Exodus 3:
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'
--- Remember, it was the Word that spoke to Moses from the burning bush, so it was the Word who said, “I AM WHO I AM.”
So in John 8:58, The Word said through Jesus, “Before Abraham was, I AM."

--- One last thing you may be wondering about. --- When did Abraham “Rejoice to see His day?”

The Word had appeared previously in the person of Melchizedek and taugh Abraham the Law, even to the law of tithing, in Genesis 14:
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 1
9 And he blessed him and said:
“Blessed be Abram of God Most High,”
And he (Abraham) gave him (Melchizedek) a tithe of all.

While it doesn’t say here who Melchizedek is, --- It gives his description in Hebrews 7:
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham and blessed him,
2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”
3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

--- So Abraham saw the Word in the Person of Melchizedek, and it says this in Galatians 3:
6 Just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

(Sorry, long again, but this verifies that the Word came from heaven, from the previous creation, and Jesus was born on earth in God’s timing.)

Placid

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Placid we believe the word of God was given to us in two equal forms...Sacred Scripture (Written) and Sacred Tradition (Oral) exactly as the Bible teaches.

You believe only in the Bible (Sola Sciptura) which is nowhere taught in the Bible.

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(To continue from above),

When I began reading the Quran I was especially drawn to Surah 2. --- It is the first teaching Surah after arriving in Madinah, so it does not introduce a new religion, but emphasizes the Faith of Abraham.

--- In the Pickthall Translation, --- this Statement of Religion is in the intro to Surah 2:

Quote: “All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham, to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, is the only true religion. And that that religion consists in the surrender of man’s will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation as manifested in His creation and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. Of sincerety in that religion the one test is conduct, and the standard of that religion is for all alike.”

The Surah begins on a definite note:

2 This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).

3 Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;

4 And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter

5 These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.

--- Those who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.

This gives us some definite times. --- What was revealed in the time of Muhammad --- (the present), --- which would be all of his followers, plus the Christians in Surah 5, whose reaction was:

83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognize the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

--- Then it says, ‘and that which was revealed before thee (Muhammad)’ --- so that refers to the former Scriptures, as said again in Surah 5:

48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: --- (This refers to the past.)

--- And it also confirms that the believers, Muslims and Christians ‘are certain of the Hereafter,’ --- because of God’s promise. --- (the future.)

This is confirmed again in Surah 2:

25 And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.

And I will give another verse that can only be understood by those who know a complete ‘surrender to God.’

28 Pickthall: How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.

Yusuf Ali: How can ye reject the faith in God? - seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

Hilali Khan: How can you disbelieve in Allah? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.

Rodwell: How can ye withhold faith from God? Ye were dead and He gave you life; next He will cause you to die; next He will restore you to life: next shall ye return to Him!

How do you understand this verse?

How do I understand this ayah currently? I understand it to mean that one cannot reject faith in God, when He created him and gave him life when he was without life and unborn, and He causes Man to die so that he may return to Him on Qiyamah, in other words, He is Al-Ba'is. (The Resurrector)

And you are absolutely right about 5:82-85, however submission to Allah (swt) comes before doing good deeds in His Name, in other words, you have to walk before you run. How can one focus on good deeds when his heart hasn't submitted to Allah (swt)?

Sorry if my tone seems harsh, I wasn't intending to be.

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Quote from Post 151:

Placid we believe the word of God was given to us in two equal forms...Sacred Scripture (Written) and Sacred Tradition (Oral) exactly as the Bible teaches.

You believe only in the Bible (Sola Sciptura) which is nowhere taught in the Bible.

Response: --- Right on, there were two methods of teaching and the Oral testimony was used as the main means of communication for the former years, --- but after the Scriptures were given by ‘inspiration of God,’ --- then they were what remained, and we still have them.

--- If the ‘oral tradition’ was ‘exactly as the Bible teaches,’ --- then everything that is in the written Scriptures is complete, and cannot be added to, is that not right?

--- I’m sorry if I disappoint you in ‘telling it like it is’ in Scripture, but that is the way it is written.

There are deep Scriptures that are not understood by men, and only by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are they revealed. --- Not everyone will agree with what the written word says, but that is according to their own teaching and upbringing. --- Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except through Me,” John 14:6.

And in the Quran, Jesus said in Surah 3:

50 “And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a Sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me.

51 Lo! God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a Straight Path.

--- (Of course, this was said to the Jews, but Jesus gave us all the Straight Path to follow, did He not? --- This is also written in the Quran, so they have to acknowledge Jesus too.)

And the second part is is showing that Jesus was not God, but rather worshiped God as we are all do.

--- There are four times in the Book of Acts where it called Jesus a Servant, as in Acts 3:

13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.

14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just,” --- So the physical Jesus was not God, was He? --- But was God’s Servant on earth whom the ‘Word’ indwelt, is that not right?

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Hi Gaius,

Thank you for your response, you were not at all harsh in your answers, but sincere and matter of fact.

Quote from 152:
How do I understand this ayah currently? I understand it to mean that one cannot reject faith in God, when He created him and gave him life when he was without life and unborn, and He causes Man to die so that he may return to Him on Qiyamah, in other words, He is Al-Ba'is. (The Resurrector)
And you are absolutely right about 5:82-85, however submission to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì comes before doing good deeds in His Name, in other words, you have to walk before you run. How can one focus on good deeds when his heart hasn't submitted to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?


Response: --- I see that your understanding of death, to life, then natural death before the resurrection, --- refers to a child as dead in the womb before it comes to life in the world, --- then the natural death that occurs to all, before the resurrection. Is that right?

Thank you for your confirmation about 5:82-85, --- true believers there are agreeing on what Muhammad is teaching, so there was harmony in the beginning, --- and the promise of heaven is given to both.

And we agree on this statement, --- “Submission to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì comes before doing good deeds in His Name, in other words, you have to walk before you run. How can one focus on good deeds when his heart hasn't submitted to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?”

 

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Hi Gaius,

Thank you for your response, you were not at all harsh in your answers, but sincere and matter of fact.

Quote from 152:

How do I understand this ayah currently? I understand it to mean that one cannot reject faith in God, when He created him and gave him life when he was without life and unborn, and He causes Man to die so that he may return to Him on Qiyamah, in other words, He is Al-Ba'is. (The Resurrector)

And you are absolutely right about 5:82-85, however submission to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì comes before doing good deeds in His Name, in other words, you have to walk before you run. How can one focus on good deeds when his heart hasn't submitted to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?

Response: --- I see that your understanding of death, to life, then natural death before the resurrection, --- refers to a child as dead in the womb before it comes to life in the world, --- then the natural death that occurs to all, before the resurrection. Is that right?

Thank you for your confirmation about 5:82-85, --- true believers there are agreeing on what Muhammad is teaching, so there was harmony in the beginning, --- and the promise of heaven is given to both.

And we agree on this statement, --- “Submission to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì comes before doing good deeds in His Name, in other words, you have to walk before you run. How can one focus on good deeds when his heart hasn't submitted to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì?”

Thanks, I wasn't sure if I sounded rude or harsh, I was just clarifying my understanding to you. After resurrection on the Qiyamah, Allah (swt) will decide who will get eternal life and bliss on Jannah and who will eternally dwell in Jahannam and perish as I understand it. Allahu Allam, and astaghfirillah, if I have mispoken.

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Quote: I was just clarifying my understanding to you. After resurrection on the Qiyamah, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì will decide who will get eternal life and bliss on Jannah and who will eternally dwell in Jahannam and perish as I understand it. Allahu Allam, and astaghfirillah, if I have mispoken.

Response: --- Yes, I see the difference. Please correct me if this is not right.
We have to have Faith before ‘good works’ count for anything, is that right?

Surah 3:91 Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.

So, those in disbelief are lost, is that right?
And how do people get from disbelief to belief? --- Do they not need the conversion experience that it indicates in Surah 5:
3 “This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.”
Al-Islam means “The Surrender,” does it not? --- Or “submission” unto God’s will?

So if one is totally surrendered unto God, to do His will, then you will do His good works, will you not?

When you are surrendered unto God and do His good works, do you still have to wonder whether you will be accepted or not in heaven?
--- It sounds like you start out in Faith, believing in God, but do works, whether from God’s instruction, or your own doing, --- so that is why you have no assurance, until you come up for judgment, and then if your ‘good works’ outweigh your ‘bad works’ --- that will determine God’s decision to let you into heaven.

So how much do you rely on the works you do after you profess Faith in God?

Please correct me if I have a wrong understanding of this.

 

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Quote: I was just clarifying my understanding to you. After resurrection on the Qiyamah, Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì will decide who will get eternal life and bliss on Jannah and who will eternally dwell in Jahannam and perish as I understand it. Allahu Allam, and astaghfirillah, if I have mispoken.

Response: --- Yes, I see the difference. Please correct me if this is not right.

We have to have Faith before ‘good works’ count for anything, is that right?

Surah 3:91 Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.

So, those in disbelief are lost, is that right?

And how do people get from disbelief to belief? --- Do they not need the conversion experience that it indicates in Surah 5:

3 “This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam.”

Al-Islam means “The Surrender,” does it not? --- Or “submission” unto God’s will?

So if one is totally surrendered unto God, to do His will, then you will do His good works, will you not?

When you are surrendered unto God and do His good works, do you still have to wonder whether you will be accepted or not in heaven?

--- It sounds like you start out in Faith, believing in God, but do works, whether from God’s instruction, or your own doing, --- so that is why you have no assurance, until you come up for judgment, and then if your ‘good works’ outweigh your ‘bad works’ --- that will determine God’s decision to let you into heaven.

So how much do you rely on the works you do after you profess Faith in God?

Please correct me if I have a wrong understanding of this.

Al-Islam mean "the submission" and comes the word 'aslama which means to submit Allah (swt), and comes from the same trilatteral root, S-L-M as Salaam or "peace". It is the IV form of 'aslama and the corresponding verbal noun.

Yeah, but Islam isn't just about good deeds, it is a way of life and only when you quell your nafs and nuture it with righteous conduct and humility so your nafs may become good through your thoughts and actions, you will submit to Allah (swt). Likewise, if you nuture your nafs with arrogance and desires, and keep it unchecked, you will be led astray and lose faith. Yes, those who are in disbelief are lost are very much lost. Especially those who are against Allah (swt) and are proud, like Iblis for example.

Eh, your understanding is somewhat incorrect, and I don't know enough to help you understand, perhaps a more knowledgeable brother can help you with your questions? I will say this, your actions definitely play a big role in your destiny in the afterlife.

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Quote: Yeah, but Islam isn't just about good deeds, it is a way of life and only when you quell your nafs and nuture it with righteous conduct and humility so your nafs may become good through your thoughts and actions, you will submit to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Likewise, if you nuture your nafs with arrogance and desires, and keep it unchecked, you will be led astray and lose faith. Yes, those who are in disbelief are lost are very much lost. Especially those who are against Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì and are proud, like Iblis for example.

Eh, your understanding is somewhat incorrect, and I don't know enough to help you understand, perhaps a more knowledgeable brother can help you with your questions? I will say this, your actions definitely play a big role in your destiny in the afterlife.

Response: --- It says some 60 times in the Quran, “Believe and do good works,” --- like these verses, starting in Surah 2:

25 And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow.

2:62 Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

2:82 And those who believe and do good works: such are rightful owners of the Garden. They will abide therein.

So this comes back to Faith first. --- Muhammad was given enlightenment in Surah 42:

52 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the Faith. But We have made it a ‘light’ whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.

This says that Muhammad was given ‘inspiration’ by the ‘Spirit of God’s command.’ --- Let’s say that this referred to the angel Gabriel. --- That Gabriel revealed the messages to Muhammad which were imbedded in his mind so that he would remember them and teach them until they were written down as Surahs.

So, the Surahs contained the messages from God, and in the same way that the OT was interwoven into the N T, --- the Gospel message is interwoven into the Quran.

I don’t find any real disharmony between the two, regardless of what critic like to say, --- and the Quran says in different places that the ‘former Scriptures were true.’

Therefore, we have a more level playing field to start with in the Scripture. --- However, Jesus gave a message to His disciples and said in John 14:

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper (Comforter), that He may abide with you forever—

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

26 But the Helper (Comforter), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

Jesus said, the Holy Spirit dwelt with them (in the Person of Jesus), and would be in them. --- This was a promise which was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Apostles and disciples. --- And this is the ‘indwelling’ Spirit that we have, to guide us.

Do Muslims have that inner ‘unction’ or daily guide in their lives to guide them in doing good works as believing Christians have?

--- And this same Spirit strengthens one against the evils of the day?

So if a Christian is totally surrendered to God, then the Holy Spirit within is a guide on the ‘right path,’ --- and also a guard against the ‘worldly path.’

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To continue from above:

I mentioned the Holy Spirit that was in Jesus, and would be given to the Apostles and disciples, --- and this promise is in Acts 1:
4 And being assembled together with them, He (Jesus) commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
--- And this is recorded in Acts 2:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Here is the case where the Holy Spirit was evident in their lives because they spoke, praising God in different languages, because of the diverse crowd that were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost, as it says in these verses:
7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
11 We hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”
--- As Jesus had said, “The Holy Spirit shall be in you,” John 14:17.

So, what did Jesus teach the Pharisees, who were the rulers of the Jews?
--- One of them, who came to see Jesus, later became a believer, John 3:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these Signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Nicodemus acknowledged that Jesus came by God’s appointment, and the proof was the miracles that no man could do, --- So Nicodemus basically said, “Rabbi (Teacher), who are You?”

Jesus didn’t say, “I am your Messiah,” but rather said, “You don’t have spiritual understanding, or you would know who I am.”

And He said, “Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

I had mentioned before that Adam and Eve died spiritually when they sinned and had to leave the Garden. --- So the offspring of mankind from Adam and Eve were spiritually dead, until they came to God in repentance in the OT.

Under the New Covenant, we come to God in repentance and surrender our will unto Him by Faith, and God gives us the Holy Spirit, so we are ‘Born of the Spirit,’ or ‘born again.’
--- The Pharisees were dead in their trespasses and sins, and they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah. --- And they did not understand the Kingdom of God, or they would have known who Jesus was.
--- So Jesus said, “You must be born again,” or “Born Spiritually,” to see, or perceive, the Kingdom of God.

 

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Because this teaching about being ‘born again’ may not be understood too well, I will continue to explain it.

I am not knocking what Muslims believe, but just giving the Scriptures that apply to believing Christians,

Jesus said again to Nicodemus in John 3:

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

--- He said first, “Except a man be ‘born again’ he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” --- Then He said, “Except a man be ‘born of water and the Spirit,’ he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.”

The ‘water’ refers to the washing and purifying by the word of God.

Faith comes from reading and hearing the word of God from the Scriptures.

It speaks of this in certain verses as being ‘washed by the word’

Jesus said to the woman at the well in John 4:

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again,

14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Ephesians 5:26 “That He might sanctify and cleanse her (the living Church) with the washing of water by the word,”

Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration (being 'born again') and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Paul speaks of the new birth, or being made ‘alive from the dead,’ in Ephesians 2:

1 “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

And Peter speaks of being ‘born again’ in 1 Peter 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again (caused us to be ‘born again’) to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And again in the same chapter:

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,

23 having been ‘born again,’ not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.”

This is why we adhere to the teaching of the Scriptures and have the guidance and presence of the Holy Spirit, who gives assurance of eternal life, --- however, nominal Christians are not ‘born again,’ --- but may still be saved by Faith, --- God is the judge.

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Hi Gaius,


To finalize this teaching on the “New birth,” --- or being “Born again,” --- I want to go back to the verse in Surah 2:
28 How can ye reject the faith in God? - seeing that ye were dead, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.

This is the case, that we come into the world in infancy, but when we come to the age of accountability, --- then we choose whether to follow God and surrender our will to Him, or follow the world.

--- And this is the need and action of conversion as it says in Ephesians 2:
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world,

So we were dead spiritually, as we walked in the world, --- then by Faith in God and obedience to Him we were made spiritually alive. --- Then as a matter of course, we will die physically, --- but we will be alive again in heaven, and return to God.

Those who are dead in trespasses and sins and die in that state are lost.


So this is how I understand that verse as it relates to the first verses in Surah 2:
2 This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
3 Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
4 And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter
5 These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.
6 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
 

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I see, interesting. Thanks for the information, what do you think of these ayats as a Christian?: "Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! and Exalted be He over all that they ascribe as partners (unto Him)!" (23:91-92, Pickthall translation)

Your understanding of the verses are accurate, we are accountable for our actions, abstaining from evil and we are accountable for our fate in the Hereafter through our actions.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Hi Blu115,

Quote from Post 9

Sometimes when I ask god for help, i wonder if the devil is playing tricks on me when i hear an answer, sometimes I wonder if Im losing my mind, or sometimes i might not get an inspiration in my heart at all

Response: --- Yes, the devil tries to interrupt our communication with God.

There are some things you can do to find out whether what you receive as an answer is from God or not. --- You may have a definite time of prayer each day, or it may be irregular. --- Prayer is the first communication with God.

--- You can start praying to God in your mind. We don’t have to be down on our knees, or in any position, but God hears our prayers. --- It is good to pray out loud when we can but if we are working or in company and we feel the urge to pray, we can pray silently.

--- A verse in the Scripture says, “Pray without ceasing,” --- which basically means “Be continually in the attitude of prayer,” so that it is foremost in our mind. --- If we are regular or constant in prayer, it can drive out the wrong thoughts and attitudes. --- Then the Lord can respond more clearly.

--- Sometimes the devil can attack or influence us in ways that draw us away from God and His word. --- There is not a lot of teaching about personal prayer in the Quran (I have a copy and have read it through), but Jesus taught His disciples how to pray in Matthew 6:5-15.

From 9-13 is what it known as, “The Lord’s Prayer” and is still used today.

--- In the Pickthall translation (which I have) he gives an intro to Surah 1, which he says means, “The opening of the Scripture,” --- and has been called, “The Lord’s prayer of the Muslims.” --- It is also referred to as: “Seven of the oft repeated,” which Muslims use often, --- and is quite comparable to the Lord’s prayer, with the 7 verses following the same themes as the Lord’s prayer.

--- So, pray one or the other of these often, and pray for personal needs as well as the capacity to forgive others, as Jesus said in Matthew 6:

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

But we must ask God sincerely, as the next verses say in Post 8:

James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind."

So start with constant praying. --- ‘The devil doesn’t like it and may leave you alone.’

Greetings,

Allah has ordered in the Quran to contantly remember and repeating his name in yourself ( Zikr) .

His name - Allah - password for connection.

If you forget constantly remembering his name a devil will bE appointed to you. ( Quran verse )

And remember Allah standing, sitting, and lying . ( Quran verse)

And remember Allah while doing business ( Quran verse )

You can search the word remember or remembrance in the Quran .

Edited by tendersoul

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Greetings,

Allah has ordered in the Quran to contantly remember and repeating his name in yourself ( Zikr) .

His name - Allah - password for connection.

If you forget constantly remembering his name a devil will bE appointed to you. ( Quran verse )

And remember Allah standing, sitting, and lying . ( Quran verse)

And remember Allah while doing business ( Quran verse )

You can search the word remember or remembrance in the Quran .

 

I believe that might parellel some of what Paul, (along with Silvanus, and Timotheus) wrote to the Thessalonians and told them to pray without ceasing, and the Ephesians:

"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"

 

 

 

Which also aligns with Eccleiastes 12.

 

Remember your Creator in the days of your youth...

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Greetings,

Yes, however in Islam praying is different from remembering constantly.

Praying or Dua Is a request/ supplication.

Salat the islamic 5 times a day which the english word unfortunately again is prayer , is actually God's command being done thru out the existence and creations .And if done properly we should be able to either witness the behind the scenes or get an understanding about it.

Trying to remember something constantly is different. Zikr or remembrance is trying to remember and connect to the Creator who is doing all these great works, and to get to know who he is actually.

To remember means that you have experienced something and you are trying to remember that.

So we are ordered to constantly repeat - Allah - silently within our selves and think about Allah and his works .

This remembering method is so high that it is considered higher than prayer in the Quran .

"Recite what is revealed to you of the Scripture, and perform the prayer. The prayer prevents indecencies and evils. And the REMEMBRANCE of Allah is GREATER. And God knows what you do. (29: 45) "- Holy Quran

Because remembering , along with thinking , needs alot of focus and mental training.

As the whole existence is a sign post indicating towards him , so we can remember what our souls experienced before we came to this worldly earth , and forgot what we had experienced with our lord.

Satan does not want us to achieve this because if we we achieve in constantly remembering and thinking about Our Lord,We can experience something beyond our imagination.

All Gods prophets were constantly remembering him. That is why they could understand and do things beyond other humans, as they were directly in connection with God all the time.

Hence they could split the ocean, bring dead to life, etc...

It is very difficult to do constantly remember and think about our Lord at all times , even while talking , working etc.

But it is showing priority to our creator. If you show priority to him , he will show priority to you.

Islam is the religion of the mind, that is why it had given us a method of mind control and training.

-------

Who REMEMBER Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give THOUGHT to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire." 3:191

And that is what scares satan , is to loose that control over our minds .

Edited by tendersoul

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Hi Gaius,

Quote from Post 162:
What do you think of these ayats as a Christian?: "Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! and Exalted be He over all that they ascribe as partners (unto Him)!" (23:91-92, Pickthall translation)

Response: --- This is a most interesting Surah because it is called ‘Believers,’ and Mr Pickthall in his intro said,
Quote: “It is considered to be the last of the Surahs revealed at Mecca, immediately before his flight to Yathrib (Al-Madinah)."

I read the Surah through last night and was reminded of this particular Surah that begins in Verse 1, “Successful indeed are the believers.”

If this was the last teaching Surah in Mecca, and Surah 2 was the first in Madinah, there is a definite parallel between the two, which I would like to share later, on another topic.

This Surah 23 is most profound and makes statements that not many want to hear. --- Nevertheless, I will go to the verses you mentioned. --- It is interesting because I had already marked these verses in the margin when reading it before.

--- Its like a conversation between Muhammad and the idolaters in Mecca, a question and answer dialogue, so we will start at 23:
84 Say: "To whom belong the earth and all beings therein? (say) if ye know!"
85 They will say, "To God!" say: "Yet will ye not receive admonition?"
86 Say: "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens, and the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme?"
87 They will say, "(They belong) to God." Say: "Will ye not then be filled with awe?"
88 Say: "Who is it in whose hands is the governance of all things, - who protects (all), but is not protected (of any)? (say) if ye know."
89 They will say, "(It belongs) to God." Say: "Then how are ye deluded?"

90 We have sent them the Truth: but they indeed practise falsehood!

--- The verses in question,
91"Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any god along with Him; else would each god have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.
92 Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! and Exalted be He over all that they ascribe as partners (unto Him)!"

91 Yusuf Ali: No son did God beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to God! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!
92 He knows what is hidden and what is open: too high is He for the partners they attribute to Him!

--- At this time in the Kabah, the House of Prayer in Mecca, there were some 360 idols as the city was given over to idolatry. --- There were a variety of gods with offspring, sons and daughters, --- idols of pagan worship, so they could choose to bow down to those who were supposed to be wise, or powerful, or sensual.

There could not be two gods of equal power because, one would have to submit to the other, then it would not be a god, but a servant.
--- ‘No god had a son,’ as though he was 'a junior god,' but there is one Almighty God, over and above all things, and all others are servants to Him, even as Gabriel was, --- and God has no partners, as the idolaters might have classed some of the idols.

I don’t see any reference to Jesus, who was CALLED the Son of God in this way in Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God."

Jesus is mentioned in verse 50 where it says:
“And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign.”
In the Quran Jesus is introduced as the ‘begotten son of Mary.’ And as a Sign ---- even as it says in Surah 21:
91 And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a Sign for all peoples.

 

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Hi Gaius,

what do you think of these ayats as a Christian?

 

 

As a Christian who does not believe in a trinity I believe these ayats are meant to correct a long, written in stone kinda doctrine that should never have been written at all. I don't know the full agenda of those who made these doctrines, but it disagrees with the text it was supposedly taken from.

Just as a point of interest, when Paul was instructing the Corinthians about various issues there was a deal about eating food sacrificed to idols. 

 

Paul's opinion is not popular, (for reasons he adds later), but the reasoning for his logic should be of great interest to Muslims. 

 

Corinthians 8:

 

Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but oneFor even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

 

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Hi Gaius,

As a Christian who does not believe in a trinity I believe these ayats are meant to correct a long, written in stone kinda doctrine that should never have been written at all. I don't know the full agenda of those who made these doctrines, but it disagrees with the text it was supposedly taken from.

Just as a point of interest, when Paul was instructing the Corinthians about various issues there was a deal about eating food sacrificed to idols.

Paul's opinion is not popular, (for reasons he adds later), but the reasoning for his logic should be of great interest to Muslims.

Corinthians 8:

Paul's logic in Corinthians 8 is interesting but it cannot justify or excuse the blasphemy inherent in the concept of the Trinity as it is mentioned in the Qur'an more than once that Allah is free from partners and people ascribe to Him. (See 6:100, 7:190, 10:18 as examples.) Another thing that bothers me about Paul is his sudden change from persecuting Jesus ' followers to being an important figure in the early Christian community. People just don't change like unless they have an ulterior motive. Sorry if my words offend anybody, but I believe that Paul was trying to mislead the early Christians, what else would explain for mainstream Christianity deviating drastically in monotheism as compared to Judaism and Islam? Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Hi Gaius,

Quote from Post i68:
Paul's logic in Corinthians 8 is interesting but it cannot justify or excuse the blasphemy inherent in the concept of the Trinity as it is mentioned in the Qur'an more than once that Allah is free from partners and people ascribe to Him. (See 6:100, 7:190, 10:18 as examples.)

Response: --- I hope you won’t mind me responding to this part of your post since I looked up the references you gave,

Paul said the same as we all believe in 1 Corinthians 8:
4 There is no other God but one.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

--- As Christians we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior, but not as a partner to God, --- but as God’s Messenger to a lost world.

The references you gave are all from late Meccan Surahs, and speak of the idols of the Meccans, --- as Muhammad spoke more boldly to them before he had to flee to Yathrib (Madinah).

Surah 6:99 It is He (God) Who sendeth down rain from the skies: with it We produce vegetation of all kinds: from some We produce green (crops), out of which We produce grain, heaped up (at harvest); out of the date-palm and its sheaths (or spathes) (come) clusters of dates hanging low and near: and (then there are) gardens of grapes, and olives, and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety): when they begin to bear fruit, feast your eyes with the fruit and the ripeness thereof. Behold! in these things there are signs for people who believe.
100 Yet they make the Jinns equals with God, though God did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!
101 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.
102 That is God, your Lord! there is no god but He, the Creator of all things: then worship ye Him: and He hath power to dispose of all affairs

--- Among the 360 idols in the Kabah, there were so-called sons and daughters of gods --- and it says, “Yet they make the Jinns equals with God.” --- so there are your partners, from the idolaters in Mecca.

Surah 7:188 Say (Muhammad): "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as God willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."
189 It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to God their Lord, (saying): "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful."
190 But when He giveth them a goodly child, they ascribe to others a share in the gift they have received: but God is exalted high above the partners they ascribe to Him.
191 Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?

--- (Does that relate to the first child of Adam and Eve? --- Or in general terms, is it a couple that may worship their child?)

Surah 10:16 Say: "If God had so willed, I should not have rehearsed it to you, nor would He have made it known to you. A whole life-time before this have I tarried amongst you: will ye not then understand?"
17 Who doth more wrong than such as forge a lie against God, or deny His Signs? But never will prosper those who sin.
18 They serve, besides God, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with God." Say: "Do ye indeed inform God of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth? - Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

--- So, you see, these are all the activities of the Meccans who worshiped multiple gods, --- And eight years after the Hijrah, Muhammad came into Mecca unopposed and destroyed all the idols, and restored tha Kabah to being a House of Prayer.

There was no mention of Jews or Christians in the context of these verses, was there?
 

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6:99-102 is indeed addressed to the idolaters of Mecca but the message is applicable for all kinds of idolatry even in the modern day and is a definite warming to Trinitarian mainstream Christianity. God is one, one essence, one nature. Not three essences, one nature; That is an deviation away from monotheism in the purest sense. Plus, 6:101 negates the idea that Allah (swt) took a wife which is common among your Christian brethren of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, where they call Maryam (pbuh) "Mother of God" and "Theotokos" (God-bearer). This is shirk according to Islam.

Surah 7:188-191 is a parable that shows how people sometimes in hardship turn to Allah and then when the hardship over, forget Allah and attribute something else instead for helping them overcome their hardship (e.g. money, doctors, the newest technology, etc.) and the parable is using pregnancy as an example of such an scenario. It may or may not be talking about Adam and Eve, this parable is more general terms rather than talking about anyone specifically from my understanding.

10:16-18 is basically saying the same thing as 6:99-102. The Pauline doctrine of Trinity or any kind of idolatry is a forgery, there is no benefit from serving falsehood and those who lie about God, as according to 10:17, it is these people who will never prosper and those whom the believers will prosper over. No,there is not but I did not mention anything about the Jews, except to say and I will say it again, "Why is mainstream trinitarian Christianity's understanding of God vastly different from the similar understanding of monotheism in Judaism and Islam?" I only talked and only talking about Christianity and doctrine of Trinity. Let us leave Judaism alone, that would be sidetracking or diverting the subject.

Sorry if I have offended anyone with my words, it was not my intention to do so. Again, I am just a layman and not a scholar, so I could be wrong in my understanding.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Hi Gaius,

Quote from Post 170:
The Pauline doctrine of Trinity or any kind of idolatry is a forgery, there is no benefit from serving falsehood and those who lie about God, as according to 10:17, it is these people who will never prosper and those whom the believers will prosper over. No, I did not mention anything about the Jews, except to say and I will say it again, "Why is mainstream trinitarian Christianity's understanding of God vastly different from the similar understanding of monotheism in Judaism and Islam?" I only talked about Christianity and doctrine of Trinity

Response: --- I believe this has been your whole point of interest from the beginning, was it not?
On Page 6 in Post 130, you said:
Quote: I hope that I wasn't too harsh but there's no room for the Trinity in the Qur'an and wasn't even defined until the Nicene Creed in 325 A.D., centuries after Jesus revealed the Injil.

--- And that is correct. --- The word trinity is not in the Bible and there is no doctrine of trinity either.

The ‘trinity’ means ‘tri-unity’ or, ‘three co-equal beings,’ --- which the Scripture never says, --- And here is a copy of what was decided as a doctrine in 325 AD, the original Nicene Creed:

--- Quote: We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
--- Note: The word "catholic" with a lower case 'c' does not mean the Roman Catholic Church but the universal Christian Church as a whole. --- End of quote.

--- Because they declared themselves to represent the ‘universal Church’ they began to impose their doctrines on the local Churches which led to persecution, imprisonment and bloodshed, which proves it was not a movement that came from God.

This above statement of the doctrine does not include the Holy Spirit as ‘co-equal’ which some writings have done. --- But the folly is this:
--- It puts Jesus, who was born on earth, in the position of the Word (Logos) who was with God from the beginning, who was a created ‘being’ from the order of the Cherubim, who were also called ‘the Sons of God.’ --- (That is another revelation from Scripture that was like the teaching of Arianism, but it was squelched in favor of exalting Jesus to being “True God from true God,” which of course the Scripture never said.)

So the Doctrine of trinity and its various explanations came out of the newly formed Roman Catholic Church, --- and not out of the Scriptures.

Traditionally the Trinitarians teach that Jesus was the Word, therefore “The Word was with God in the beginning” --- John 1.

Since you said this faulty teaching came out of the meeting in 325 AD, how are you now trying to blame something on Paul?
When you say ‘the Pauline doctrine of Trinity,’ what do you mean?
Where is this teaching in Paul’s letters?

 

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Salaam alaikum, Placid

I know what catholic means as I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a baby and have Catholic relatives.

The reason why I call the Trinity a Pauline doctrine is because in order to accept the Trinity as truth, one needs to rely on the doctrines of Paul. Paul never said anything about the Trinity directly but indirectly, by influencing the Church Fathers with his teachings, to found the Council in Nicaea; Paul was long since gone when the Council was founded in 325 A.D. but he is indirectly responsible in terms of theology. Hence I call the Trinity a Pauline teaching.

I just really don't understand how three co-equal persons doesn't contradict the very tenets of monotheism for trinitarian Christians.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Hi,

Quote from Post 172:
I know what catholic means as I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a baby and have Catholic relatives.

Response: --- I too have Catholic relatives, but my first knowledge of God came from my home, and the old time revival tent meetings., Years later my wife and I accepted Jesus as our Savior in a Babtist Church and were baptised there. I began to work on committees of interdenominational groups like the Bible Society and Gideons International, where the distribution of the Scriptures were the main purpose, so that people could read the Scriptures for themselves. --- These organizations had no doctrines or traditions to hinder the work that God had called them to do.

My education of Scripture came from the Bible, not from any Church. I have worked with many Denominational Church groups and respect them all, --- but after studying the Scriptures it is the Holy Spirit that guides us according to God’s will for our lives.

--- So I see that your disagreement is with the Cathic doctrine of trinity. --- This shouldn’t build into a prejudice against other Christians who don’t believe their doctrines, should it?


Quote: The reason why I call the Trinity a Pauline doctrine is because in order to accept the Trinity as truth, one needs to rely on the doctrines of Paul. Paul never said anything about the Trinity directly but indirectly, by influencing the Church Fathers with his teachings, to found the Council in Nicaea; Paul was long since gone when the Council was founded in 325 A.D. but he is indirectly responsible in terms of theology. Hence I call the Trinity a Pauline teaching.

Response: --- Paul of course died perhaps in the late 60’s so his letters were what the Church Fathers and Bishops of the Churches used to establish local Churches in all the cities and towns for the next hundreds of years, and the Gospel message continued to be taught by believers, and then by new believers. --- That is the way it is still taught today. Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:
2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. --- (So this was Paul's method of teaching, 'teach others, to teach others,  to teach others.')

--- The Roman Government persecuted the Churches and about 300 AD a number of clergy who perhaps were more political than spiritual, compromised with the Roman Government to form a new Church with them, in exchange for no more persecution.
--- So the Romans had control and formed the Church after the pattern of Judaism with a central office to control the Churches and what they taught, --- and a hierarchy of priests (rather than local Churches that each had one Pastor), --- So Rome had finally won.

If the small Churches were following Paul's teaching, they were the ones being persecuted by the Romans. --- Now that Rome had control they removed the name Christian and called it Catholic, meaning universal, --- so the Roman Government was declaring juisdiction over all the local Churches. --- The persecution still continued for those that didn’t conform to the new doctrines, like ‘the trinity.’ --- So Paul’s teaching was in the local Christian Churches, but had no part of the new organization.

It was in the 15oo’s when Martin Luther tried to reform the Church from the inside, but he was rejected and they went through much trouble, --- however there were still many believers who sided with Luther and the Reforming of the Christian Church took place. --- This is when denominations started in different countries, and they established local Churches as was done before.

Matin Luther wrote two Catechisms, one for adults and one for Children, and they were both based on these five things, --- The Ten Commandments, --- The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7. --- The Apostles Creed, --- and the two ordinances of Baptism --- and the Lord’s Supper (Communion).

--- And what did Martin Luther say about ‘trinity’?
Quote from a sermon: "Today we celebrate the festival of the Holy Trinity, to which we must briefly allude, so that we may not celebrate it in vain. It is indeed true that the name "Trinity" is nowhere to be found in the Holy Scriptures, but has been conceived and invented by man. For this reason it sounds some-what cold and we had better speak of "God" than of the "Trinity."
The great universities have invented manifold distinctions, dreams and fictions by means of which they would explain the Holy Trinity, and have made fools of themselves."

Quote: I just really don't understand how three co-equal persons doesn't contradict the very tenets of monotheism for trinitarian Christians.

Response: --- It is not Scriptural so that is good enough for me. --- To most Christians it is just a Church tradition, and because it can’t be explained the way it is presented, it is not often discussed
--- However, the doctrines are not the basis of salvation, so whether some believe and some don’t shouldn’t hinder the Faith of true believers, should it? --- We are saved by Faith in God, and our Faith and Love are expressed in the good works He would have us do.
Matthew 5: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

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I just really don't understand how three co-equal persons doesn't contradict the very tenets of monotheism for trinitarian Christians.

Neither do I. I did much study in a very Baptist church where trinity was explained to me over and over. 

 

Hi Gaius, hope you don't see this as a father/son crossfire but I'd just like to add...

 

What I found amungst trinitarian Christians is that they can quote what others have called proof of trinity but they can't prove it themselves. The majority say they believe it, but they really don't understand it so they quietly go through life with trinity on their sleeve and questions in their mind. They fear to ask because it's so deep in their church dogma that the unanswerable questions only bring ire, considered as blasphemy.  I'm the guy who asked the questions, and I'm the guy who walked out of that church, never to return. I pretty much left Christianity behind as well.

 

I don't understand what doctrines Paul taught that include any reference to trinity.

Paul said what every Muslim believes. "There is no other God but one." 

It's true that Paul put great emphasis on Jesus, but as a savior who brought a message of salvation, not as the son of God who all must worship. Paul mentioned often of Christians being the children of God, and talked of "sonship" which means he never believed that Jesus was the literal son of God. 

 

Not that I remember now, but one fellow brought to my attention one NT version and one instance where they had "interpreted" the words of Paul to say " Grace to you and peace from God our Father, the Lord Jesus Christ" which is a total misrepresentation of his true words because God and Jesus were always separated by the word "and" every time Paul said it. Agenda anyone?

 

Apart from that Paul also spoke often of the Holy Spirit, but never as an equal part of God nor Jesus so I don't get the connection between Paul and trinity.

 

As for Paul's agenda...

If you were in the business of picking up people considered criminal for their beliefs, then saw a light that knocked you off your horse, left blind and injured, led to a place where you stayed without food nor drink for three days, and taught by the founder of the people you persued, would you not reconsider your actions? I would think the events would be rather convincing.

Paul is not the only one in history to do a 180.

 

I could tell you what turned me back to God, but it is precious to me and not something I toss out for evaluation.

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Neither do I. I did much study in a very Baptist church where trinity was explained to me over and over. 

 

Hi Gaius, hope you don't see this as a father/son crossfire but I'd just like to add...

 

What I found amungst trinitarian Christians is that they can quote what others have called proof of trinity but they can't prove it themselves. The majority say they believe it, but they really don't understand it so they quietly go through life with trinity on their sleeve and questions in their mind. They fear to ask because it's so deep in their church dogma that the unanswerable questions only bring ire, considered as blasphemy.  I'm the guy who asked the questions, and I'm the guy who walked out of that church, never to return. I pretty much left Christianity behind as well.

 

I don't understand what doctrines Paul taught that include any reference to trinity.

Paul said what every Muslim believes. "There is no other God but one." 

It's true that Paul put great emphasis on Jesus, but as a savior who brought a message of salvation, not as the son of God who all must worship. Paul mentioned often of Christians being the children of God, and talked of "sonship" which means he never believed that Jesus was the literal son of God. 

 

Not that I remember now, but one fellow brought to my attention one NT version and one instance where they had "interpreted" the words of Paul to say " Grace to you and peace from God our Father, the Lord Jesus Christ" which is a total misrepresentation of his true words because God and Jesus were always separated by the word "and" every time Paul said it. Agenda anyone?

 

Apart from that Paul also spoke often of the Holy Spirit, but never as an equal part of God nor Jesus so I don't get the connection between Paul and trinity.

 

As for Paul's agenda...

If you were in the business of picking up people considered criminal for their beliefs, then saw a light that knocked you off your horse, left blind and injured, led to a place where you stayed without food nor drink for three days, and taught by the founder of the people you persued, would you not reconsider your actions? I would think the events would be rather convincing.

Paul is not the only one in history to do a 180.

 

I could tell you what turned me back to God, but it is precious to me and not something I toss out for evaluation.

Salaam alaikum, you sound a little like me, what I found irritating about my discussions with people who believe in the Trinity was watching them go through mental gymnastics to prove the Trinity and some examples they tried to liken it were decidedly blasphemous. I think it is an eye opener to hear that the Trinity is a tradition rather than a doctrine; I was constantly told by my father that was a doctrine, I wonder how many Trinitarian Christians call the Trinity a doctrine? Either way, I believed in Tawhid when I was ten years old but I knew nothing of Islam at the time before foolishly turning to atheism when I was thirteen.

Was the Bible translation called Douay- Rheims as I believe that how it is written in that particular translation and yes, I agree with you,there's a definite agenda going on.

In response to you what you said about Paul's agenda, that is exactly what the people at church told me, the problem for me is I don't believe in the Resurrection as told in the New Testament and Paul's story of his conversion and repentance sounds way too convenient to be true. I know that he wasn't the first to do a 180 in history but I don't trust the word of anybody who did a 180 as drastic as Paul did.

Keep your story to yourself, I agree, it's not something to ever be evaluated because it's a very personal experience.

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