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StrugglingForTheLight

The Long Hadithal Kisaa - Words Of Kufr?

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Particularly the line that God didn't create anything in the universe except for the love of the five under the cloak.

 

That would mean Allah didn't have that love for the rest of the Prophets. For the rest of his friends. For even the 9 Imams from the offspring of Hussain.

 

Isn't this kufr?

 

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You miss understood the concept, Allah loves all his prophets and Hujjats but the five under the cloak have special status. Prophet Muhammad is the most beloved creation of Allah, and the chief of all prophets. Imam Ali (as) is the commander of all the faithfuls, chief of all Imams and wali of Allah. Bibi Zahra (as) is the chief of the women of the worlds. Imam hasan (as) and Imam Hussain (as) are the leader of the youths in paradise. If Allah didn't love his other prophets and Imams, He, the most sublime would not have simply appointed them to their respective roles. 

 

There is a hadith but I don't have the reference.

Allah, the most High said, 'O Muhammad (S), I only created the universe, the heavens and all other creations for your sake. O Muhammad! I created you for the sake of Imam Ali (as). O Ali (as) and Muhammad (S)! I created both of you for the sake of Bibi Fatima Zahra (as). 

 

All prophets and Imams are Hujjat of Allah, his prove over the rest of his creation. They are all Devine guides. 

 

Didn't Imam Ali (as) said, ' We are all Muhammad, our first is Muhammad, our middle in our progeny is Muhammad and the last of our progeny is Muhammad.' So in this case, Our most beloved Imam of our time, is Muhammad. Muhammad's and Ali's successor and inheritor. Imagine how high must the status of Imam Zaman (as) must be, that Prophet Isa (as) prayers behind him, the day of Reckoning is delayed for his sake, He is the last Hujjat of Allah and for his sake, Allah has kept this universe in tact and with his intercession, rains falls and we get our daily bread. 

 

Please pray for the reappearance of Our beloved Imam.  O Allah! please send to us back our Imam. 

 

In a case, All Imams (as) are mercy of Allah for mankind in his time. 

 

Ya Ali Madad

Edited by Ghulam e Ale Mohammad

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(bismillah)

 

The long version of Hadīth Al-Kisā is not authentic and unreliable, it is highly suspicion and has critical issues with its origin, and the so called "sanad (chain)", which is is fourteen narrators long!, however, there is no actual correct "Chain" to Fatim'ah [as] to begin with (Concerning this Du'a). This issue has already been discussed in detail here Here please read.

 

 

__________________________


(wasalam)

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The point is suppose Ahlul-Kisaa didn't exist, Allah wouldn't have enough love for the Prophets or the 9 Imams from Hussain to create the universe.  He only created out of love of ahlul-kisaa. That's what it says.

 

You can't compare the Imams from the progeny of Muhammad (S) to other prophets. As I said before, Our first Imam in essence is Muhammad of his time, our 6th Imam is Muhammad of his time and Imam Zaman (as) is Muhammad of our time. They all have the same knowledge as the Prophet (S) and is as beloved to Our High Lord. Didn't Rasool Allah (S) say, ' their flesh is my flesh, their blood is my blood, loving them is loving me, enmity towards them is enmity towards me.' Each Imam had different Devine responsibility to safeguard Islam and protect the teachings of Quran and the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (S). If Imam Zaman (as) was alive during the time of the Prophet (S), he for sure would have joined the five under the cloak.

 

Don't forget the sixth member, who joined under the cloak with the permission of the High and Exalted Lord, Jaberiel (as). Now a believer who has the love of Imam Ali in his/her heart with sincerity, that believer has a higher status than Jaberiel [ Remember that Angels don't drop or raise in their spiritual status]. If Jaberiel was able to Join the special five under the cloak, does it mean Allah created the Universe for the love of Jaberiel. No, of course not. If it wasn't for the sake of Imam Zaman (as), you and I would not be alive, the known universe would not exist, None of us would fine guidance, because guidance is only possible through a Hujja. Is this not love? Each of our beloved Imam (as) had different responsibilities and were tested differently. All Imams and prophets are Devine Light that over come darkness, guides that who never gets lost and above all They are all best friends of Allah. All, 11 of our Imams  have the same status in front of our Lord. But Holy Prophet (S) and Imam Ali (as) are at a different level, one is the chief of prophets, while one is the chief of All Imams.

 

 

Ya Ali   

Edited by Ghulam e Ale Mohammad

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(salam)

While I have huge problems with the way the story is quoted and narrated in the long-version of Hadith al-Kisa (I lean more towards the fact that it is actually a fabrication - the reasons and discussions on it are too long and this isn't what the topic is about), I have absolutely no issue with any of the contents of it.

 

That would mean Allah didn't have that love for the rest of the Prophets. For the rest of his friends. For even the 9 Imams from the offspring of Hussain.

 

Isn't this kufr?

 

First of all it doesn't mean that he didn't love the rest of the Prophets. And since it doesn't mean that, then how is it Kufr? What is your definition of Kufr? People throw around this word way too freely now a days.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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I never said it means God doesn't love other Prophets. It just means that love was not enough to create the universe, the same is true for the love of the rest of the Imams. That's not only belittling the Prophets, it's also belittling God's grace saying he would not create out of love for other creation.

 

It's disbelief in God's attributes as well as disbelief in the honor of the Prophets and other friends of God.

 

Sure you can say Allah loves them, but his love is not enough to create them. That's not much of a love in the first place. The same is true about the 9 Imams from offspring of Hussain. It would not mean he didn't love them, but that love would be so little that God wouldn't even have created the universe if ahlul-kisaa didn't exist, showing he doesn't love them enough to the create them out of their love.

 

.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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Honestly, the Quran says to be a grateful servant. I am grateful to Allah and his grace upon me for creating me and the favor he wishes to bestow upon me out of his grace. I thank God for his grace. I would never imagine that God wouldn't have created me or been graceful to me were it not for a set of individuals. Allah is graceful, compassionate, generous, loving. 

 

IT's absolutely insane. Aside from the honor the Prophets and the attributes of Allah, how do you thank God for his grace in creating you with this thinking?

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Honestly, the Quran says to be a grateful servant. I am grateful to Allah and his grace upon me for creating me and the favor he wishes to bestow upon me out of his grace. I thank God for his grace. I would never imagine that God wouldn't have created me or been graceful to me were it not for a set of individuals. Allah is graceful, compassionate, generous, loving. 

 

IT's absolutely insane. Aside from the honor the Prophets and the attributes of Allah, how do you thank God for his grace in creating you with this thinking?

 

I do not understand what you are crying about ? 

 

Allah swt says that his most beloved Prophet is Muhammad pbuh and his family, now you accept that but you find it hard to accept Hadith Al Kisa ? I do not understand your philosophy behind your arguments.

 

Allah swt is the creator, Allah swt can love who he wants and it is not our business.

 

Allah swt did not take your opinion before he placed you in the womb of your mother.

 

This Hadith has been accepted as authentic across the Shia world .

 

If Allah swt created the worlds because of his love for the Prophet pbuh and his family, what makes you think he does not love all of his creation? Have you not heard the hadith that says Allah swt is much more merciful to his creation then the most merciful mother to her child? If so then how can you argue that Allah swt does not love his creation outside the Holy 5 mentioned in the Hadith Al Kisa?

 

So who are you to judge the creator if he Allah swt created the worlds because of the Holy 5 ?

 

Come on brother , Allah swt created for us a brain so that we can use not abuse.

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I never said it would mean he doesn't love rest of his creation. It's just that grace and love upon rest of creation would not be enough to create them. Which is not much love or grace in the first place, exalted be God above that!


Also, the rest of the family of Moahmmad (the 9 Imams from Hussain) would be such that God's grace and love upon them would not be enough for him to create them as well.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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I never said it would mean he doesn't love all of his creation. It's just that grace and love upon rest of creation would not be enough to create them. Which is not much love or grace in the first place, exalted be God above that!

Also, the rest of the family of Moahmmad (the 9 Imams from Hussain) would be such that God's grace and love upon them would not be enough for him to create them as well.

 

Brother, our mind in its current state cannot comprehend this. 

 

Another thing you must bear in mind regarding that is that at the time of the cloak, only those Holy 5 were alive. Maybe if all the Imams were alive it would have been all of them ? Maybe I dont know as I am just thinking loudly here.

 

Let us say for arguments sake that what you are saying is correct? we still come back to my original argument of who are we to judge what Allah swt does or likes or ? or? or?

 

You get what I am saying brother?

 

There are somethings that we must accept and move on and there are somethings we must debate and in this instance and in my opinion this is an instance that we should accept and move on with? 

 

If you for example got married and had 2 kids, you said to your brother I love my family so much that because of them I will now buy a house. Does that mean that after you buy your house any future kids you have would not have the same love you have for your first 2 kids?

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Allah didn't create the universe when Mohammad or rest of ahlul-kisaa (human form) was born, he created it way before that.

 

Yes brother I know that, I gave you an example as I told you I was thinking loudly and I did say I did not know brother.

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And I fully understand what it says.  The Prophet said he is leaving two weighty things, Quran and ahlulbayt. The Quran is one of the weighty things the Prophet wants us to hold on to, and in it we read:

 

 
“Oh People of the Book, don't go extreme in your religion, and do not say about God except the Truth." 
 
"Except whom God has mercy upon. And for that did he create them..."
 
"Ar-Rahman. He taught the Quran. Created the Human."
Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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God wishes to spread his mercy, and his expansive state of wishing to spread his mercy is known as "Ar-Rahman".  Suratal Rahman connects creating humanity with that name, and we read else where that Allah created people so his mercy would be upon them, he created them for the sake of his Rahma.

 

Allah is Rahman whether Ahlul-kisa exist or not.  The Prophets for sure Allah chose them specially for his treasures of his mercy, and would of created them regardless if Ahlulkisa existed or not.

 

And saying it was for the sake of Ahlulbayt he created the universe, is going into extreme about individuals (love is going too far and out of bounds of proper love), and it's not speaking the truth about God.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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And I fully understand what it says.  The Prophet said he is leaving two weighty things, Quran and ahlulbayt. The Quran is one of the weighty things the Prophet wants us to hold on to, and in it we read:

 

 
“Oh People of the Book, don't go extreme in your religion, and do not say about God except the Truth." 
 
"Except whom God has mercy upon. And for that did he create them..."
 
"Ar-Rahman. He taught the Quran. Created the Human."

 

 

 

Brother it is now 3.15am i need sleep. i just wanted to say you look like sayed ammar nakshawani 

God wishes to spread his mercy, and his expansive state of wishing to spread his mercy is known as "Ar-Rahman".  Suratal Rahman connects creating humanity with that name, and we read else where that Allah created people so his mercy would be upon them, he created them for the sake of his Rahma.

 

Allah is Rahman whether Ahlul-kisa or not.  The Prophets for sure Allah chose them specially for his treasures of his mercy, and would of created them regardless if Ahlulkisa existed or not.

 

And saying it was for the sake of Ahlulbayt he created the universe, is going into extreme about individuals (love is going too far and out of bounds of proper love), and it's not speaking the truth about God.

 

 

I get you but how do you know its not the truth? for me and many others it is logical to trust in hadith al kisa. it does not mean what ur saying...

 

First we Love Allah SWT

 

Second we Love Prophet Muhammad pbuh and his Ahlul Bayt 

 

Third we Love The other Prophets pbu them all.

 

What is wrong with that brother? I do not understand why you think this may be shirk? It does not make sense brother.

 

I love Prophet Musa a.s however my love for the Prophet Muhammed pbuh and his Ahlul Bayt comes first (Only second to Allah swt) because it is our love for Allah swt that gave us the Love for the Prophet Muhammed pbuh and  Ahlul Bayt and it was the love for our Prophet Muhammed pbuh and his Ahlul Bayt  that gave us the love for the other Prophets.

 

I do not see why this is a bad thing brother?

 

Prophet Muhammed pbuh is Habib Allah or is that now shirk in your eyes?

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Salam,

Hadith al-Kisa is narrated by Jabir ibn Abdallah al-Ansari, which was a very loyal companion from the time of RasulAllah PBUH/HF until Imam Mohamed al-Baqir AS, SubhanAllah!

Just the mention of RasulAllah PBUH/HF and the Ahlulbayt AS can brighton my day so much so it's not hard for me to understand the reason and love Allah SWT has for them,

And I think that brother Journey of Truth is right when saying that if the other Imams AS were born then they would be included,

Also there is a reason y there r only 14 infallibles, the other Prophets AS were not infallible, they did sin, we r all the kids of Adam, the first Prophet to sin, only the Ahlulbayt AS r perfect,

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The Prophets are free from thulm, as the Quran states "my covenant doesn't include the thalimeen"...Allah never ties his covenant with someone who committed injustice, and it's far too obvious unjust people are not made Guides to even mention that (so it means people free from any injustice).

 

I showed clear proof from both logic and Quran that this a fabrication and a lie against God that not only denial of God's Names and belittling God's encompassing state of wanting to spread his mercy but belittles the status of his chosen ones like Prophet Yahya and Prophet Isa and Lady Mariam as well.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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(salam)

 

It's just that grace and love upon rest of creation would not be enough to create them. Which is not much love or grace in the first place, exalted be God above that!

 

Yeah it wouldn't be. So how is that Kufr regardless?

 

Also, the rest of the family of Moahmmad (the 9 Imams from Hussain) would be such that God's grace and love upon them would not be enough for him to create them as well.

 

Ok, so let us supposed it wouldn't be. Once again, how is it Kufr? What is your definition of Kufr and how does it apply in believing in the above view that you are against?

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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Yeah it wouldn't be. So how is that Kufr regardless?

 

Because Allah has love for good people and expansive grace and mercy for people in general, enough to the degree to create them and want to bestow favor upon them. First off it's denial of Allah's love, mercy, and grace.

 

The 2nd worse thing is that it's saying the Prophets despite how exalted they were, Allah doesn't love them that much. This is belittling their exalted station. So it's kufr to their station.

 

So it's kufr first because it denies Allah's nature and 2nd because it belittles God's chosen friends.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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(salam)

 

Maybe think of it this way: If Allah had not created these special 5, it would not have been worth it to create anything else because Islam in it's most perfect form would not have been established. In Allah's divine plan, he created all of the other prophets and Imams to help establish this perfect religion, but if we had the other prophets with out Prophet Muhammad (saww), what would be the point? Islam would never have been perfected. The world would be lost. These 5 were crucial in establishing Islam and were the foundation for the spread of Islam throughout the globe. 

 

It doesn't mean that Allah didn't need and doesn't love the other prophets and Imams, it just means that these 5 were even more beloved because of their perfection and the role they played. 

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(salam)

 

Maybe think of it this way: If Allah had not created these special 5, it would not have been worth it to create anything else because Islam in it's most perfect form would not have been established. In Allah's divine plan, he created all of the other prophets and Imams to help establish this perfect religion, but if we had the other prophets with out Prophet Muhammad (saww), what would be the point? Islam would never have been perfected. The world would be lost. These 5 were crucial in establishing Islam and were the foundation for the spread of Islam throughout the globe. 

 

It doesn't mean that Allah didn't need and doesn't love the other prophets and Imams, it just means that these 5 were even more beloved because of their perfection and the role they played. 

 

Other Prophets could have delivered the final religion. And we have the rest of the 9 Imams who could of been Mohammad and Ahlul-Kisaa.

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(salam)

 

Because Allah has love for good people and expansive grace and mercy for people in general, enough to the degree to create them and want to bestow favor upon them. First off it's denial of Allah's love, mercy, and grace.

 

The 2nd worse thing is that it's saying the Prophets despite how exalted they were, Allah doesn't love them that much. This is belittling their exalted station. So it's kufr to their station.

 

So it's kufr first because it denies Allah's nature and 2nd because it belittles God's chosen friends.

 

First of all, if you are assuming that this is the only place where such an ideology has been presented then you are wrong. Also, it is not a denial of Allah's Love or Mercy or Grace at all. Are you suggesting that Allah can't create something out of His love for his servants (even if they happen to be us)? If those servants happen to be the Ahlul Kisa and those creations happen to be what the narration mention - what is the problem? 

 

Second of all, Allah [swt] Himself has placed Prophets and Messengers and people on different stations (verses of the Qur'an prove that) because that is the station that they had the capacity for and were destined to have. They were not all on the same station and there is no reason to pretend that they were or force them to be on the same station. Grace and Love are concepts which have gradation, but the problem is, you are trying to give gradation to the Love or Grace of Allah [swt] which are infinite. We don't truly know what it means for Him [swt] to love someone less or more.(but we know that He does love some people more than others, or hate some people more than others).

 

 

Other Prophets could have delivered the final religion. And we have the rest of the 9 Imams who could of been Mohammad and Ahlul-Kisaa.

 

What do you mean could have would have? It's a done deal, it's already existed and done with. Stop trying to do bogus istidlaal with impossible scenarios that can't happen.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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Also, it is not a denial of Allah's Love or Mercy or Grace at all. Are you suggesting that Allah can't create something out of His love for his servants (even if they happen to be us)?

 

 

 

Sure he could of created out of love of ahlulbayt but to say only Ahlulbayt and no one else is what is kufr. This is denying who Allah is and who his friends are.

 

Second of all, Allah [swt] Himself has placed Prophets and Messengers and people on different stations (verses of the Qur'an prove that) because that is the station that they had the capacity for and were destined to have. They were not all on the same station and there is no reason to pretend that they were or force them to be on the same station. Grace and Love are concepts which have gradation, but the problem is, you are trying to give gradation to the Love or Grace of Allah [swt] which are infinite. We don't truly know what it means for Him [swt] to love someone less or more.(but we know that He does love some people more than others, or hate some people more than others).

 

All Prophets have the station that Allah would create the universe if they existed out his grace, love, and mercy, and want to bestow upon them favor. They all have this station. He loves them even a whole lot more then that. Denying this love he has for Musa for example, is not only denial of Allah's love for his special friends (denial of God's essence) but it belittles the status of Musa way below his rank.


 

 

What do you mean could have would have? It's a done deal, it's already existed and done with. Stop trying to do bogus istidlaal with impossible scenarios that can't happen.

 

All Prophets are fit for delivering the Shariah. What do you think Isa could not have delivered Islam? Or Musa. Once again, it's kufr all over again. Why do people love these ghulat hadiths, it's because Satan makes people want to go to extremes in religion.

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First of all do you believe that the Holy Prophet (saww) was superior to all other prophets? Not on the same level but on an extremely elevated level? 

 

I believe Mohammad and the family of Mohammad are superior to all Prophets. To the degree they are I don't know. Mohammad and his family are Allah's most favorites, that is why they alone are known as habeeballah. But it doesn't mean other Prophets weren't fit to deliver Islam or can't understand the Shariah or couldn't have finalized the religion. It just means God out of his wisdom chose the best leaders for the final religion specially since he want to link their love with his love, and that his most befitting of the best of creation.

I have also have personally theory with Ayat Tatheer, and the nature of God blessing them all together in regards to Salawat, and our hadiths, and the line "A peace is upon the family of Yaseen" that Ahlulbayt are such that it cannot be they could act any better. All their intentions and actions are always of the best most praiseworthy nature. 

 

But I also have a theory that God creates infinite universes, and that such Mohammad's and family of Mohammad's exist in those universes as well.

 

The reason why is because I believe God's grace is infinite and he can create infinite souls, and out of infinite souls, there is bound to be those who are perfect.

 

He selects the perfect ones out of the infinite souls, to finalize his religion and bring about justice and peace and victory in sentient beings.

 

It's also possible there is other planets in this universe with life and sentient beings, and there is such perfect creation on them as well.

 

It's a theory, but I don't know for certain.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight

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(salam)

 

Sure he could of created out of love of ahlulbayt but to say only Ahlulbayt and no one else is what is kufr. This is denying who Allah is and who his friends are.

 

No it is not Kufr. It simply means exactly that, that he created out of love for them because his Love for them was greater than for anything or anyone else. That is not Kufr in any way, shape or form.

 

All Prophets have the station that Allah would create the universe if they existed out his grace, love, and mercy, and want to bestow upon them favor. They all have this station. He loves them even a whole lot more then that. Denying this love he has for Musa for example, is not only denial of Allah's love for his special friends (denial of God's essence) but it belittles the status of Musa way below his rank.

 
This whole paragraph is just a claim you are making without any proof whatsoever. 

 

All Prophets are fit for delivering the Shariah. What do you think Isa could not have delivered Islam? Or Musa. Once again, it's kufr all over again. Why do people love these ghulat hadiths, it's because Satan makes people want to go to extremes in religion.

 

Yes I actually believe Isa [as] could not have delivered Islam, and neither was he the correct person to do so. Allah [swt] didn't arbitrarily appoint Messengers for different nations and times.

 

I am probably one of the most cautious person when it comes to Ghuluww, but your definition of Kufr and Ghulat is extremely distorted. This is what Sheikh Saduq (ra) who is known for his extreme anti-Ghuluww tendencies [to the point that he believes anyone who rejects Sahw un-Nabi is taking the first steps towards Ghuluww], has to say in his book I'tiqadaat (chapter 34 & 35):

 

And we asserted the superiority of some (Prophets, Imams) over others (angels) because the position accorded to them amongst the varieties of things created by Allah is greater and more excellent than the position given to angels.
 
It is necessary to believe that Allah the Mighty and Glorious did not create any created thing more excellent than Muhammad and the Imams, peace on them, that they are the most loved of creatures in the eyes of Allah, and the most noble and the foremost among them, on account of their acceptance of Him (as their Lord). When Allah took the pledge (mithaq) of the prophets and "required them to bear witness of themselves (saying) : Am I not your Lord? and they said: Yes, verily" [7:172] .
 
And verily Allah the Mighty and Glorious gave to each prophet (i. e. knowledge, power, etc.) according to the extent of his cognition (ma`rifa), while the cognition of our Prophet Muhammad was greater and more sublime, for it took precedence in accepting Allah (as the Supreme Being).
 
We believe that Allah, Blessed and Exalted is He above all, created the whole of creation for him (the Prophet) and for the People of his House, and that but for them, Allah, Glory be to Him, would not have created the heavens or the earth, Paradise or Hell, Adam or Eve the angels or (any) created thing (shay')-the Blessings of Allah upon them all
 

I think you might be the one doing Kufr, so be careful. I don't think you have read or have any familiarity with our ahadith at all.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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