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SolidRock

Why I Will Never Be A Muslim...

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Thanks to all of you who took the time to respond -- may the peace and love of the Lord Jesus Christ be upon you.

A few of my questions were never answered, or if they were, I missed the answers:

What exactly happened at Banu Qurayza? Did the Jews attack Muhammad first, or was Muhammad out spreading the love of Allah, and when the Jews wouldn't convert, they were killed? What exactly happened there, and who started that battle? I honestly don't know, so please enlighten me and cite your sources... I'm truly interested in hearing the Muslim versiothis the story.

Further, according to Islam, did Muhammad personally kill anyone? Did he personally order or approve of anyone being killed?

Finally, according to Islam, did Jesus ever kill anyone or order / approve of their execution?

As always, please provide the sources for your answers so I can do some research.

(And for the record, my refusal to ever embrace Islam is based on the fact that many of its claims fly in the face of centuries of recorded history regarding events like the covenant between God and Isaac, the crucifixion and death of Jesus on the cross, God's deep love and affection for the Jewish peopke, etc. Many Muslims have told me that the Bible is corrupted and can't be trusted, but no Muslim has ever been able to produce a copy of a scripture dating from before this alleged corruption occurred... the whole Koran story sounds fishy and simply doesn't mesh with the thousands of years of recorded history before it -- but instead of doing the logical thing and questioning why the Koran conflicts so starkly with recorded history, we're expected to do the illogical thing and discard centuries of recorded history and blindly embrace the Koran because Muhammad said so. Sorry, not for me... the Bible clearly states that after His resurrection from the dead, many false prophets would arise. I'm quite sure I know who at least one of them was.

Peace,

The Rock <><

Well if you really base your argument with history then here's the thing- all historians after 150 years of archaology agree that the Exodus never happened. Moreover they also agree that Abraham and most biblical characters are legends or myths. In 1999, Dr. Zeev Herzog, cheif archaeologist said in haaretz article all of these. So please don't teach me "history". Some historians deny that Jesus even existed. There are more and more things they have to say. Trust me man, debating us with "history" isnt going to get you anywhere.

As for Biblical 'tampering': well to start with, the original language of the Law of Moses is long gone. The 'bible' was initially six seperate books. The Zadokites were the ones who-if any- changed the wording of the scripture. Furthermore, a fact which im sure you dont know is that the vowels are considered holy by hebrew rabbis. So they only memorized the vowels and avoided writing them in the scriptures. Desperate to avoid 'being dammed' the Masoretes who were the first to vocalize the scriptures, often left footnotes at the bottom of the pages if they were not sure about something. Yes, that is how it is easy to make mistakes in the scriptures. This could also be the Qurabic reference to how jews changed the scripture by their 'tongue'.

Another occasion where 'corruption' could have taken place is when Alexander conquered Egypt and Palestine, Persia- Ptolemy and 70 rabbis translated the Syriac bible to the Greek Septuagint 'Thorat'.

And finally some catholic websites ive visited also wrote jews changed the word 'virgin' in one of the chapters in Isaiah to 'young woman.'

As for the Gospels, they are eyewitness testimonies, John's Gospel differs from others in more ways than one.

And if you believe historians- during the 2nd century there were many different Presbyters with their own versions of the Gospels. They also agreed to put aside their 'differences' at the Council of Nicae. And also some secular historians liken Jesus to the Persian Sun God Mithra(not that i believe all of them).

Another point is that the Sinai Bible largely differs from the modern bible. The Sinai bible is in a museum in England. Might want to fancy a visit?

As for the jews, well the jews hate Jesus more than they hate Muhammad. The talmud for example calls Jesus, Yeshu Ben Pandera who was the son of a Roman centurion Tiberius Pandera and a ..... woman, who learned witchcraft in Egypt and is boiling in hot excrement. Religious jews also think that Jesus wasthe promised 'false pprophet' as said in Deuteronomy 13 and 17. It tells of a prophet out of the Jewish People who will show wonders but bring them to foreign gods. Jesus' supposed Sabbath 'transgressions' vindicates that belief.

Since you like jews so much perhaps you will accept their account of Jesus' history true.

There are no confirmed accounts of Muhammad personally killing anyone. Some jews betrayed and agreement with the muslims and Muhammad just followed what Deuteronomy says to deal with backstabbers. Now, didnt Jesus say that he did not come to bring peace but a Sword? And that he would cause families to seperate? Thats hardly what you would call 'peace' right[sarcasm intended]?

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What exactly happened at Banu Qurayza? 

 

Islamic history is not cast in stone.

 

There are many legends surrounding the story.

 

The best answer may be obtained in "Muhammad and the Jews" by Dr. Muhammad Barakat.

 

I am told the book is available in  major libraries of the world.

 

If you don't live in a major city like New York or Washington, you may need to ask your local library to scout around. 

Edited by baqar

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Is the true and ultimate religion anything but love !? 

 

 

Ali ibn abi Talib (AS) said :

 

 

"""There are people who worship Allah to gain His Favors, this is the worship of traders; while there are some who worship Him to keep themselves free from His Wrath, this is the worship of slaves; a few who obey Him out' of their sense of gratitude and obligations, this is the worship of free and noble men."""

 

 

Quran 76:

 

(saying): 'we feed you only desirous of the face of Allah; we seek of you neither recompense nor thanks, (9)
for we fear from our lord a stern, frownful day. ' (10)

 

Only those who are true lovers of God or somebody, fear from his frown. 

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God's deep love and affection for the Jewish people.

 

Islam totally rejects the premise of the chosen people.

 

If that is one of the reasons why you are so vehemently against Islam, sorry, that will never change.

 

Read verses [2:94], [5:18], [62:6].

 

And by the way, a JUST God would never love anyone on the basis of ethnicity or birth, which is what the concept of the "chosen people" is all about.

 

Just as you reject Islam, I reject every religion and philosophy that harbors the "chosen people" theory.

 

There is no such thing as a chosen people.  Wishful thinking!

 

In Islam, people are "chosen" only on the basis of "merit".

 

[49:13] The most honorable among you is the one who is the most God-fearing.   (part verse)

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the Bible clearly states that after His resurrection from the dead, many false prophets would arise. I'm quite sure I know who at least one of them was.

 

Good on you.

 

And just as you believe that Islam is a false religion, there are many people who believe that Christianity is not only a false but a super-false religion.

 

In fact, your beloved chosen people  believe that Jesus was not the Messiah at all.

 

So you don't need to keep repeating something you have told us many times before.

 

Perhaps your religion does tell you to "hurt" the feelings of others.

 

And you are clearly enjoying endlessly repeating  the same mantra over and over again.

 

Clearly, all that "love your enemies" is a load of cra p.

 

To be told to non-Christians in order to buy a favorable opinion and a possible new convert.

And then to be shoved under the mattress.    

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There is no such thing as a chosen people.  Wishful thinking!

 

In Islam, people are "chosen" only on the basis of "merit".

 

[49:13] The most honorable among you is the one who is the most God-fearing.   (part verse)

What about chosen prophets from the line of Abraham and Imams from the lines of Ali and Zahra?

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What about chosen prophets from the line of Abraham and Imams from the lines of Ali and Zahra?

 

Read my post again

 

The key word in Islam is "merit".

 

That is quite different from being chosen on grounds of ethnicity, as in the case of Jews.

 

The concept of the "chosen people" holds that Jews are "chosen" not because of merit but birth.

Every Jew, whether he is a good man or a bad man, is dear to God, because of his birth.  

 

In Islam, there is no such thing.

 

No one is chosen because they are born into a particular family or race.

 

Men of merit were blessed with children of merit.

 

And those children again with children of merit.  And so on.

 

Thus Abraham had such illustrious sons as Isaac and Ismael. Isaac had Jacob, Jacob had Joseph.  The same goes for our Imams.  

Edited by baqar

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Read my post again

 

The guiding principle in Islam is "merit".

 

No one is chosen because they are born into a particular family or race.

 

Men of merit were blessed with children of merit.

 

And those children again with children of merit.  And so on.

 

Thus Abraham had such illustrious sons as Isaac and Ismael. Isaac had Jacob, Jacob had Joseph.  The same goes for our Imams.  

 

Same logic applies. The nation of Israel is blessed because they descend from Abraham through Jacob. The Quran also tells us that Israel is the chosen nation? So what merits are we talking here?

Edited by Sea Ocean

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Same logic applies. The nation of Israel is blessed because they descend from Abraham through Jacob.  

 

On the contrary,  the logic is just the opposite.

 

In Islam, every person "chosen" by God is chosen due to merit.

 

Whereas the Jewish nation is regarded as "chosen" on grounds of birth.

 

The Quran also tells us that Israel is the chosen nation? 

 

Where?

So what merits are we talking here?

 

Performance

 

Or rather God's prior knowledge of everyone's performance.

 

God wanted to bless Abraham with exceptional sons and He knew that Isaac and Ismael would be excellent.

So he blessed Abraham with those two sons.

 

Ans so on and so forth.

 

In Islam, there is no such thing as  an entire nation being "chosen"because of the goodness of one meritorious man.

 

Thus while Jacob's sons who sold away their little brother belonged to a "chosen" group in Judaism, is Islam they were not among God's cherished men.

 

They were just one of the many Joe Bloggs around. 

Edited by baqar

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On the contrary,  the logic is just the opposite.

In Islam, every person "chosen" by God is chosen due tom merit.

 

Whereas the Jewish nation are regarded as "chosen" on grounds of birth.

 

 

Where?

 

The Jews will give you different explanations as to why God made a covenant with them, and what it means to be the chosen people.

 

As for the Quran:

"O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures." [2:47]

 

But going back to your logic. You said that the prophets and imams were chosen due to their merit. But as far as I know, they were chosen before they were even born? Since God decides who is born to who, why couldn't God choose the descendants of Abraham to be the best among all nations?

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Hello,

 

Just wanted to spell out a number of different reasons why I will never be a Muslim:

 

First, I ABSOLUTELY DO "submit to the will of God".  However, Muslims will disagree, and that's fine -- because we disagree on what is the will of God.

 

I submit to the will of God of Christianity WILLINGLY -- NOT because I'm being FORCED to convert to Islam and worship Allah, under threat of a forced tax (Qur'an 9:29) or death (multiple verses in the Qur'an). 

 

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity LOVES ME -- I haven't seen a single verse that says Allah loves his people (can someone show me a verse in the Qur'an that says Allah loves you?)

 

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity has PROMISED me salvation simply because I believe in Jesus Christ and try my best, as a sinner, to follow in His footsteps (Romans 10:9-10) -- to my knowledge, Muslims have NO promise of Heaven (unless they die killing "unbelievers"). 

 

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity -- Jesus Christ -- is ALIVE, risen from the dead and appearing in bodily form to hundreds of people after His crucifixion, death on the cross and burial in a sealed tomb before being raised up to Heaven before their eyes.  The prophet of Islam is long since dead and gone. 

 

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity -- Jesus Christ -- never hurt anyone...  He healed the sick, comforted the weak and the weary, and LOVED people into the kingdom of God.  The prophet of Islam was a fighter and a warrior, FORCING people to convert or die, and if I'm not mistaken, if he didn't actively participate, he at least was present and approved of the beheading of hundreds of Jews during the attack at Banu Quraya.  God's truth doesn't need to be forced upon people, only false teachings have to be forced upon people. 

 

I submit to the will of God because the Bible -- God's Word -- is the ONLY book in the world that people are being killed for believing.  Knowing how evil Satan is, and knowing how Satan will stop at nothing to corrupt, pervert and destroy God's Word, the fact that there is so much hatred of the Bible in the world, to the point where it is the ONLY book in the world that people are murdered simply for believing -- that's all the proof I need to know that it is indeed the Word of God.

 

Peace,

 

The Rock   <><

 

 

 

Hello the Rock,

 

Do not be surprised if some Muslims insult you and mock you for why you will never be a Muslim. While many Muslims are caring (for example, my Muslim friends are very caring people and are concerned for my eternal welfare) not every person who calls him/herself a Muslim is caring, same as sadly not everyone who calls himself/herself a Christian is caring. :(

 

My friend Steven Masood, who was a Muslim and grew up in the Muslim-dominated country of Pakistan has experienced death attempts and death threats, as well as was disowned by his family. He had to flee Pakistan to England, and then eventually had to flee England to the USA. He understands persecution in a level that I could not begin to understand, since insults from Atheists and Muslims is really all the persecution I have experienced so far. However, I am willing to die for Jesus if God wills. I am not willing to kill, because Jesus said to love enemies, and loving does not include killing.

 

 Jesus Christ said,

 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death,

and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 

And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 

And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 

But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world

as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." -Matthew 24:9-14 (ESV)

 

He also said to love enemies and bless those who curse us (Luke 6:27-28).

 

So, may God greatly bless all those who hate us and insult us.

 

Blessing from a sister in Christ who agrees with your post and submits to God's will in Christ Jesus too!

 

Christianlady

 

Clearly, all that "love your enemies" is a load of cra p.

 

To be told to non-Christians in order to buy a favorable opinion and a possible new convert.

And then to be shoved under the mattress.    

 

Hello PeaceLoving,

 

Jesus Christ commanded love your enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27). Everything Jesus Christ says is priceless and more precious than gold, whether you think it is worthless or not.

 

Jesus' disciples who walked and talked with him learned to obey his commands, including loving enemies, whether their enemies became followers of Jesus Christ too and fellow brothers/sisters in Christ or not.

 

Whether you hate me forever or not, Jesus commands me to love you. Whether you are Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, Pagan, you name it, I am to love you because of what Jesus Christ commmands. His commands are more precious than gold.

 

Peace and God bless you

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As for the Quran:

"O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures." [2:47]

 

And what makes you think it means "chosen" in the sense that they were "special" in the eyes of God, which is what the expression "chosen people" is taken to mean.

 

Of course they were favored just as Americans today and the Brits in the days of the Empire.

 

That is all, buddy. 

 

And by the way, there are several verses rejecting the concept of the "chosen people", but here is one.

 

[62:6] Jews, if you think you are favored ones of God, to the exclusion of all men, then invoke death, if you speak the truth".

 

One does not even need to read the verse in depth.

 

The divine anger is much too evident.

 

If God would speak to them like that, they are no more "chosen" than the rest of us.

 

And there are many harsher verses in the Quran for them, just as there also are for Muslims and Christians.

 

None of us as a group, can be called a "chosen" people. 

 

There are chosen individuals spread across the board and the chalice of time but not confined to any given ethnicity.

 

Since God decides who is born to who, why couldn't God choose the descendants of Abraham to be the best among all nations?

 

Good point.

 

But that would be acceptable if they were indeed all excellent people.

 

I doubt if all the Jews in the world today are people of exceptional merit.

 

Or all the millions who have ever lived!

 

There may be good people among them but likewise, lots of evil ones.

 

So indeed If they were all exceptional individuals then the word "chosen" could be seen as apt.

 

But that is not the case.

 

Millions of people sharing a common ethnicity just cannot be all men of the highest merit.

Edited by baqar

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And what makes you think it means "chosen".

 

Of course they were favored just as the Americans today and the Brits in the days of the Empire.

 

That is all, buddy. 

 

And by the way, there are several verses rejecting the concept of the "chosen people", but here is one.

 

[62:6] Jews, if you think you are favored ones of God, to the exclusion of all men, then invoke death, if you speak the truth".

 

One does not even read the verse in depth.

 

The divine anger is evident in the style.

 

 

Good point.

 

But that would be acceptable if they were indeed all excellent people.

 

I doubt if all the 20 million Jews in the world are people of exceptional merit.

 

Or all the millions who have ever lived!

 

There may be good people among them but likewise, lots of evil ones.

 

So indeed If they were all exceptional individuals then the word "chosen" could be seen as apt.

 

But that is not the case.

 

They are---or at least were---the chosen ones because it states "....and how I preferred you to (all) creatures"

 

As to what it means to be chosen, I think that is best left to interpretation. Some Jews do, indeed, believe the superiority of the Jewish spirit, but other Jews don't. In fact you can convert to their religion, so the notion of a "chosen race" is not accurate. I know you're a Muslim, but if I were you, I'd be wary about judging the Jews on the information given in the Quran. The Quran states that the Jews believe Uzair is the Son of God---a lie by all standards.

 

As for the nation of Israel, the Quran clearly endorses the idea of a chosen people. Whether that is exclusive to them or not, the verse you quoted clearly rejects this notion. Thanks for correcting me (or rather reminding me) on this one. I really appreciate it.

Edited by Sea Ocean

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The Quran states that the Jews believe Uzair is the Son of God---a lie by all standards.

 

Just because most Jews don't believe that Uzair was the son of God, does not necessarily mean that there was no Jewish sect that did not. The Quran is talking about local Jews, not all the Jews of the world.

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Just because most Jews don't believe that Uzair was the son of God, does not necessarily mean that there was no Jewish sect that did not. The Quran is talking about local Jews, not all the Jews of the world.

 

Read the verse carefully, my friend, and look how it equates the Jews with the Christians:

 

"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they" [9:30]

 

You can make all the excuses you want; that is your prerogative. I just want you to be honest with yourself: is this not war propaganda?

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The Quran is talking about local Jews, not all the Jews of the world.

 

Correct. They were many Jews in the area of Medina.

 

If they did not believe that Uzair was the son of God, they would have pointed it out. 

Some people think they can understand the Quran just by "reading" as if it was a Hans Christian Anderson story. Leave them alone. No  point engaging with them.

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Correct. They were many Jews in the area of Medina.

 

If they did not believe that Uzair was the son of God, they would have pointed it out. 

.

 

Do you know what war propaganda does? We don't even know what their response was because they were ALL massacred.

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Good to see the astute historian Rock not having the guts to reply me.

Lesson for all folks: Never Say Fox History and Entertainment Is Real History and Never try Getting History to Vindicate Your Religion. -Spicen LeBraunsky

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Islam totally rejects the premise of the chosen people.

 

If that is one of the reasons why you are so vehemently against Islam, sorry, that will never change.

 

Read verses [2:94], [5:18], [62:6].

 

And by the way, a JUST God would never love anyone on the basis of ethnicity or birth, which is what the concept of the "chosen people" is all about.

 

Just as you reject Islam, I reject every religion and philosophy that harbors the "chosen people" theory.

 

There is no such thing as a chosen people.  Wishful thinking!

 

In Islam, people are "chosen" only on the basis of "merit".

 

[49:13] The most honorable among you is the one who is the most God-fearing.   (part verse)

Excuse me? I did NOT say that.

I, the Muslim nationalist, Spicen, would prefer to be beheaded for eternity than say that JEWS are God's Chosen People.

If jews are God's chosen people, then i have no business with that god.

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Lol the entity 'Sea Ocean' thinks that jews are good.

By the way, you really don't have much idea about jewish history really. As historians have proven, most Jews were Polytheists for most of their history before 7th century BCE. Did you know that the jews actually thought that Yhwh has a female consort, the goddess Asherah. Furthermore, personality cults are everpresent among jews especially because of their slavery to their rabbis. For example, some modern jews think rabbi Schneerson is the Messiah and god. It is highly likely that the Quran was referring to an arab-jewish personality cult which was dedicated to Ezra. Ezra btw, was not a good guy if you are the humanist sort. He was a supermascist. But the entire jewish identity is based on supremascy(#talmud). So its likely that the sect was there.

Now youre going to say that jews think the idea that Ezra is SoG is a heresy. Well i already showed you that they ha other heretic believes.

Now, jews say its forbidden to make graven images. Archaeologists have found an old synanogue filled with images about biblical tales.

In August/September, i will make a thread 'the Jewish Question'. And i will see how exactly you can defend jews after that.

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I submit to the will of God of Christianity WILLINGLY -- NOT because I'm being FORCED to convert to Islam and worship Allah, under threat of a forced tax (Qur'an 9:29) or death (multiple verses in the Qur'an).

 

"There is no compulsion in religion"

research properly or don't post something as irrational as this thread.

 

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity LOVES ME -- I haven't seen a single verse that says Allah loves his people (can someone show me a verse in the Qur'an that says Allah loves you?)

According to christianity, Jesus loves everybody yet some of those will go to hell. And according to christianity, you can do outrageous amount of sins but if you believe in Jesus you will go to heaven regardless. This doesn't make sense.

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity has PROMISED me salvation simply because I believe in Jesus Christ and try my best, as a sinner, to follow in His footsteps (Romans 10:9-10) -- to my knowledge, Muslims have NO promise of Heaven (unless they die killing "unbelievers").

So you go to heaven because you believe in Jesus. So you could go on a killing spree but you will go to heaven because you believe in Jesus. What kind of God doesn't judge you upon your doings? This argument is extremely irrational.

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity -- Jesus Christ -- is ALIVE, risen from the dead and appearing in bodily form to hundreds of people after His crucifixion, death on the cross and burial in a sealed tomb before being raised up to Heaven before their eyes.  The prophet of Islam is long since dead and gone.

A god that dies and then wakes up from the dead. Wouldn't him being invincible prove that he's God? Or did he die for your sins? which is also an irrational argument because it means you can do whatever you want and get away with it. And why did God send prophets of he's going to appear later on in human form?

I submit to the will of God because the God of Christianity -- Jesus Christ -- never hurt anyone...  He healed the sick, comforted the weak and the weary, and LOVED people into the kingdom of God.  The prophet of Islam was a fighter and a warrior, FORCING people to convert or die, and if I'm not mistaken, if he didn't actively participate, he at least was present and approved of the beheading of hundreds of Jews during the attack at Banu Quraya.  God's truth doesn't need to be forced upon people, only false teachings have to be forced upon people.

The crusades...

I submit to the will of God because the Bible -- God's Word -- is the ONLY book in the world that people are being killed for believing.  Knowing how evil Satan is, and knowing how Satan will stop at nothing to corrupt, pervert and destroy God's Word, the fact that there is so much hatred of the Bible in the world, to the point where it is the ONLY book in the world that people are murdered simply for believing -- that's all the proof I need to know that it is indeed the Word of God.

Which has been changed, how nice. God changed his mind halfway, apparently.

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Lol the entity 'Sea Ocean' thinks that jews are good.

By the way, you really don't have much idea about jewish history really. As historians have proven, most Jews were Polytheists for most of their history before 7th century BCE. Did you know that the jews actually thought that Yhwh has a female consort, the goddess Asherah. Furthermore, personality cults are everpresent among jews especially because of their slavery to their rabbis. For example, some modern jews think rabbi Schneerson is the Messiah and god. It is highly likely that the Quran was referring to an arab-jewish personality cult which was dedicated to Ezra. Ezra btw, was not a good guy if you are the humanist sort. He was a supermascist. But the entire jewish identity is based on supremascy(#talmud). So its likely that the sect was there.

Now youre going to say that jews think the idea that Ezra is SoG is a heresy. Well i already showed you that they ha other heretic believes.

...

 

Yes, the entity 'Sea Ocean', does indeed think that Jews---and all people for that matter---are good people in general. He rejects the anti-Jewish discourse and garbage that is spouted by religious fundamentalists and far-right nationalists, and has vowed to God to defend all people from the oppression and genocide of pathological tyrants.

 

In my humble understanding, monotheism did not spring from vacuum; it evolved from polytheism to henotheism to the abstract notion of a universal God. Indeed, the ancient Israelites practised paganism until the point in history when YHWH became the official Single God of the Jews. By the time Jesus was born, it was a blaspheme for a Jew to worship other than YHWH or to claim to be the proper Son of God; that was merely a title afforded to revered individuals; it did not indicate divinity.

 

Back to our problem. There are three issues you need to address:

Firstly, who are these Jews because no Muslim seems to know?

Secondly, what did they mean by Son of God?

Thirdly, how prominent were they? Just a little cult or a mainstream denomination?

 

Until Muslim scholars address these issues adequately---all attempts hitherto have been inadequate and founded on baseless claims---then it's plausible to believe that Muhammad has either lied to malign the Jews or erred---like when he thought Christians deify Mary alongside Jesus (and beside God)!.

 

As for Rabbi Schneerson, there were countless of Jews who claimed the messianic mantle. Nothing new there. Much like Muslims claiming to be the Mahdi. Does that mean Muslims say God has a Son? Obviously not. But to equate the Messiah with God is a gross misunderstanding on your part. Do you even know the word God is sometimes used figuratively in Jewish literature to mean King?

In August/September, i will make a thread 'the Jewish Question'. And i will see how exactly you can defend jews after that.

 

That's a long wait. I'm eager to see how you justify genocide.

Edited by Sea Ocean

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Hi Ibn Al-Shahid,

Quotes from Post 58:
1. According to christianity, Jesus loves everybody yet some of those will go to hell. And according to christianity, you can do outrageous amount of sins but if you believe in Jesus you will go to heaven regardless. This doesn't make sense.

2.So you go to heaven because you believe in Jesus. So you could go on a killing spree but you will go to heaven because you believe in Jesus. What kind of God doesn't judge you upon your doings? This argument is extremely irrational.

3.A god that dies and then wakes up from the dead. Wouldn't him being invincible prove that he's God? Or did he die for your sins? which is also an irrational argument because it means you can do whatever you want and get away with it. And why did God send prophets of he's going to appear later on in human form?


Response: --- I don’t particularly care for this topic because I have respect for Muslims, --- but these statements are completely wrong.

1. Yes Jesus loves everybody as He is the expression of God’s love. It says in John 13:
34 “A new Commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

But no one who practices sin will go to heaven. --- There are those, the same as in Islam, who sin, and then repent of their sin. --- But for salvation, one must First have Faith in God and follow the teaching of Jesus, as it says in this verse in John 5:
24 Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

2. “So you go to heaven because you believe in Jesus.” --- You must believe in God, who sent Jesus with the Gospel Message, the Good News of Salvation, --- and for those who believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior and Messiah, --- there is a home in heaven.

Notice the conversation in Surah 5:
82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"
85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86 But those who reject Faith and believe not our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- When the Christians heard Muhammad teaching the same truths that they already believed, they were in harmony, --- so the reward of heaven is for all true believers.

3. --- Jesus was not God, so the whole concept is wrong. --- Not worth answering.

 

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According to christianity, Jesus loves everybody yet some of those will go to hell. And according to christianity, you can do outrageous amount of sins but if you believe in Jesus you will go to heaven regardless. This doesn't make sense.

So you go to heaven because you believe in Jesus. So you could go on a killing spree but you will go to heaven because you believe in Jesus. What kind of God doesn't judge you upon your doings? This argument is extremely irrational.

 

 

what you're referring to is Sola Fide which is a Protestant doctrine. Catholics and Orthodox do not believe in the above statements of yours.

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Sorry, this entire topic is passive-aggressive as all get out. Or even aggressive-aggressive. Who with any sense of propriety comes onto a Muslim site and starts this kind of thing? I'm sorry I wasn't part of this boat when Solid-Rock first posted. I honestly can't believe what the heck I'm reading. And then playing the victim when you come into someone's front yard and start talking stuff at them....and get all rump-hurt they come back at you? Smh

There's an old Catholic custom ( that I don't use...lol!)wherein you can offer up any suffering you experience to lessen the time of souls in purgatory. The collective suffering of some Shia on this topic alone could probably spring the population of a small city.

Edited by LeftCoastMom

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This idea is a recent Christian invention and is very foreign to Judaism. Every Jewish individual is judged by his or her merits. Disbelief and rejection of the Torah actually transforms a person of Jewish descent into the most despised being far worse than idolaters, according to the Talmud and especially according to esoteric Jewish literature. However, according to our tradition Jews were chosen to keep specific commandment like not doing 39 forbidden works on the Sabbath or fasting 25 hours on Yom Kippur, which do not apply to other people, unless they convert to Judaism and become Jews themselves. But this is a great responsibility to perform very specific religious tasks, which comes with much greater potential punishments, not automatic benefit at all.

Some Protestant Christians and the Zionists perverted the original idea, because their goal is to convert the Jews to Christianity or to secular nationalism. In tradtional Judaism, a heretic of Jewish descent is not a Jew at all.

Shalom, 

I don't have a problem with jews brother. Only with zionism.

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This idea is a recent Christian invention and is very foreign to Judaism. Every Jewish individual is judged by his or her merits. Disbelief and rejection of the Torah actually transforms a person of Jewish descent into the most despised being far worse than idolaters, according to the Talmud and especially according to esoteric Jewish literature. However, according to our tradition Jews were chosen to keep specific commandment like not doing 39 forbidden works on the Sabbath or fasting 25 hours on Yom Kippur, which do not apply to other people, unless they convert to Judaism and become Jews themselves. But this is a great responsibility to perform very specific religious tasks, which comes with much greater potential punishments, not automatic benefit at all.

Some Protestant Christians and the Zionists perverted the original idea, because their goal is to convert the Jews to Christianity or to secular nationalism. In tradtional Judaism, a heretic of Jewish descent is not a Jew at all.

 

Shalom/Salam/Peace Yoel,

 

Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) is Jewish. His mother Mary is Jewish. Mary's husband Joseph is Jewish. Jesus Christ's 12 chosen apostles are all Jewish. His followers were all Jewish, though they were kicked out of the synagogues (John 9:22).  While the Jewish people who rejected Yeshua accuse(d) him of committing blasphemy, that actually helped him fulfill Psalm 22 and Isiaah 53.

 

Jesus Christ specifically said, when talking to a Cannanite lady who begged Jesus to save her daughter from demonic possesion, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24) This means that Jesus Christ did not go and heal people in Gentile countries, though as a Gentile I am so thankful that after Jesus (Yeshua) rose from the dead, he told his disciples to make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:18-20). When they didn't understand that included Gentiles, God sent Peter a vision to show him that Gentiles can follow Jesus Christ too!!! (Acts 10) It was a surprise - a happy one - to Jews who accepted Yeshua as the Mashiach, that Gentiles could follow the Jewish Mashiach! :)

 

So, Christians, both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, of course hope that more and more Jews and Gentiles become our brothers and sisters in Christ, same as Muslims hope that more and more Jews and Gentiles become Muslims.

 

Peace and God bless you

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Jesus Christ specifically said, when talking to a Cannanite lady who begged Jesus to save her daughter from demonic possesion, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

 

 

 

I already had this conversation with you a dozen of times, but you still don't get it. A Canaanite lady who converted to Judaism and kept the Torah commandments would be 100% a Jew, a daughter of Israel in full sense. Or a sheep of Israel, if you like this term better. If people would recite a prayer for her at a synagogue, she would be officially called "daughter of Abraham and Sarah". Tamar was a Canaanite who became a Jew. Rahab was a Canaanite who became a Jew and married Joshua, according to our tradition.

 

Presumably, Jesus said it, because this particular lady was a practicing idolator. If she would be a non-Jewish ethical monotheist, he would most certainly help her, because Jews are supposed to help fellow non-Jewish monotheists as well.

 

On the other hand, a Jew who worships idols is not a Jew anymore. That includes those who convert to Trinitarian Christianity. While people who grew up Christian don't know better and may be excused for mixing monotheism with idolatrous beliefs, there is no excuse for a Jew to adopt such beliefs.

 

If you convert to Judaism and sincerely follow it, you would be also considered 100% a Jew, a daughter of Israel and not a Gentile. Don't you get it? The Jewish people are a religious group, similar to the Muslim Ummah, not a race or ethnicity. While some people may be proud of their descent from David or Aharon, just like the Muslims who are descended from Muhammad or Ali may be proud of their particular ancestry, Jewish "peoplehood" in general is a notion of a religious community, of which anyone can become a part.

Edited by Yoel

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Salam/Shalom/Peace Yoel,

 

I already had this conversation with you, but you still don't get it. A Canaanite lady who converted to Judaism and kept the Torah commandments would be 100% a Jew, a daughter of Israel in full sense. Or a sheep of Israel, for that matter. If people would recite a prayer for her at a synagogue, she would be officially called "daughter of Abraham and Sarah". Tamar was a Canaanite who became a Jew. Rahab became a Jew and married Joshua, according to our tradition.

 

 

I totally understand that. In Jesus' line of ancestry, both Tamar and Rahab and Ruth are included (Matthew 1:3-5). However, there are children of Israel who are physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel (Jacob). They are also considered Jews, at least by Gentiles.

 

Just curious, but who do you believe are Gentiles, or Goyim? Anybody who is not Jewish?

 

Presumably, Jesus said it, because this particular lady was a practicing idolator. If she would be a non-Jewish ethical monotheist, he would most certainly help her, because Jews are supposed to help fellow non-Jewish monotheists as well.

 

 

 

Jesus Christ actually did help her, after he tested her faith. :)  (I boldened some in the passage below and put Jesus' words in red.)

 

 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out,

Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him,

“Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

 He replied, It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.

 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

 Then Jesus said to her, Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.”

And her daughter was healed at that moment.

- Matthew 15:21-28 (NIV)

 

As a Gentile, I personally identify myself to this Canaanite woman who humbly came and knelt before the Jewish Mashiach. :)

 

interestingly, Yeshua HaMashiach complimented the faith of a centurion, who I assume was a Gentile:

 

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 

“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.”

 

Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?

 

The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

 

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Then Jesus said to the centurion, Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment. - Matthew 8:5-13 (NIV)

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, a Jew who worships idols is not a Jew anymore. That includes those who convert to Trinitarian Christianity. While people who grew up Christian don't know better and may be excused for mixing monotheism with idolatrous beliefs, there is no excuse for a Jew to adopt such beliefs.

 

Do you believe Jesus Christ taught trinitarianism, or do you believe the Gentiles introduced that? If you read the New Testament, nowhere is the term "Triune" or Trinity given. Brother Placid thinks it is an invention of the Catholic church (correct me if I'm wrong, Placid).

 

It is important to note that the term Trinity or Trinue is not in the Bible - either in the Tanakh as you know, or the New Testament, which quotes extensively from the Tanakh.

 

As for my Messianic Jewish friends (many of whom are from the Reform Judaism group), they focus on Yeshua being the Mashiach; they do not focus on the doctrine of the Trinity. And, while other Jews say they're not Jews and can sadly be quite mean to them, they just leave the judging up to the Judge and love all people, both Jews and Gentiles, regardless of their beliefs. :)

 

Peace and God bless you

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On the other hand, a Jew who worships idols is not a Jew anymore. That includes those who convert to Trinitarian Christianity. While people who grew up Christian don't know better and may be excused for mixing monotheism with idolatrous beliefs, there is no excuse for a Jew to adopt such beliefs.

 

Shalom again Yoel,

 

I see you added more... Jews who accept Yeshua (who is Jewish) as the Mashiach are not worshipping idols. 

 

 

If you convert to Judaism and sincerely follow it, you would be also considered 100% a Jew, a daughter of Israel and not a Gentile. Don't you get it?

 

 

 

Sure I get it - like Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth.

 

 

 

The Jewish people are a religious group, similar to the Muslim Ummah, not a race or ethnicity.

 

There are many religious Jewish groups: Modern Orthodox Jews, Haredi Jews, Reform Jews, Hasidic Jews, Karaite Jews, Messianic Jews, and so on. It's not a surprise when one group demonizes the other groups and calls them not Jewish.

 

LeftCoastMom was just commenting in another thread that Evangelical Christians don't consider Catholics "real" Christians. (However, I'm a Protestant who believes that Catholics, Coptic Christians, Syrian Christians, Orthodox Christians, Messianic Jews, and Protestants are brothers and sisters in Christ.)  Long time ago, Catholic leaders considered Protestants to be heretics and would torture/kill them (sorta like they tortured the Jews and forced many into Catholicism or expelled them).  Protestants sadly disobeyed Jesus Christ by torturing/killing Catholics and other people too, including Jews. :( Martin Luther's late writings against Jews were  horribly instrumental in helping the Catholic Hitler to persecute and kill Jews in Europe. :( :( :( :(

 

At least thank God, Jews don't kill each other while they brand each other heretics!!!! I guess they have had to band together to protect themselves from Gentiles who have persecuted Jews (regardless of what Jews believe) for thousands of years, including in the time of Esther till now, till when the Jewish Mashiach (who I believe is Yeshua/Jesus) comes (back)!!!

 

While some people may be proud of their descent from David or Aharon, just like the Muslims who are descended from Muhammad or Ali may be proud of their particular ancestry, Jewish "peoplehood" in general is a notion of a religious community, of which anyone can become a part.

 

 

 

It really depends on who you ask. My Jewish friends who are Atheist disagree with you, and are happy being Jewish even though they are condemned by their own people who believe in God. By God's grace, hopefully someday they will come to believe in Him, because He loves them, same as He loves all Jews and Gentiles (or Goyim, whatever you call non-Jews).

 

Peace and God bless you

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^ lol! I said there were "plenty " of Evangelicals who do not consider Catholics to be Christians, not ALL of them by a long shot. The ones I studied with did not exclude me from the ranks of believers. Also, I think I've shown in other threads that the concept if the Trinity was it " thought up" by the Roman Catholic Church when I described the formalizing of the concept at early Church Councils....which were heavily attended by Eastern Christians from nowhere near Rome or even Europe and who did not accept the primacy of the Roman patriarch,but were still rooting-tooting Trinitarians. As well, the early Jewish Christians worshipped in synagogues for a couple of hundred years after Christ. There were likely conflicts, but doesn't seem that they were " booted out" in most cases. If they were being booted out and weren't still living as Jews, then the issue between Peter and Paul would not have arisen in Acts the way it did. It appears that most Christians gradually left after abandoning Jewish ways.

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