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IQRA07

Jafar The Liar

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How do we know he was lying?

How did he claim Imamate if the Imam was known?

Can 12ers explain the events following the death of Imam Askari(as)?

No rants please. This is a fair question.

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Salam :)

 

Haven't you asked same/similar questions in other threads? I'm sure I stumbled upon some when I was browsing through old threads.

 

To answer your question- just because someone claims the Imamat doesn't make him an Imam. It's especially interesting in this case as Jafar claimed Imamat publicly - something no other Imam before him has done (due to obvious reasons). If he, indeed, was the 12th Imam why did he announce it publicly? That would be a really stupid move for an Imam (astaghfirullah!) since their enemies were many, especially of the last one. Besides, that's not the first time someone claimed something which wasn't true, is it? Ismailis claim that Ismail was 7th Imam and I believe that Ismail's son claimed Imamat for himself even though Imam Kadhim (as) was there? Or that companion of Imam Kadhim (as) who claimed that the Imam (as) was the Qaim and in occultation and he was his representative- wasn't any true just because he claimed it.

 

And since Jafar claimed Imamat, it was up to him to proof it, wasn't it? But if looking at everything we know about him, he didn't seem to be very religious or knowledgeable and apparently had some kind of animosity toward his brother, Imam Hasan al-Askari (as). Not the best traits in an Imam, are they? Imam Askari's few companions were wary of him and honestly doubted his claim, probably because they knew of his character and also, because they (some of them) knew about Imam Mahdi. I don't know what there's to explain about the events after Imam Askari's death? Jafar saw on opportunity to bring himself to the forefront and seized it, simple. Though, there are indications that later on in his life, he repented for what he did.

 

Adding to that, Imam Hasan and Hussain (as) were the only two brothers to be Imams, ever. There are Hadiths stating this such as this: "The Imamate will not be in two brothers after Hassan and Hussain (...)" (Kulayni: Al- Kafi, Vol. 1. P. 286 and Mufid: Al- Irshad, P. 289 and Saduq: Ikmal al- Din, P. 414). I remember that there are more such narrations.

 

Wa salam.

Edited by Noor al-Batul

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I studied this somewhere (Can't remember the book) but it stated that the reason why Jafar claimed Imamate was to somehow claim Imam Hasan al-Askari's (AS) possessions, He wanted to be his inheritor (To get his property, wealth etc). But Imam Hasan Askari (as) gave away all his belonging to his sister. After the demise of Imam Askari (as), Jaffar wanted to grasp the inheritance from his sister, and even took her to the court of the caliph of the time. Later on, the Inheritance was divided equally. 

 

Some Shias of those time claimed that Immate was to belong to the oldest son and Jaffar was older than Imam Askari (as). After the demise of Imam Askari (as), Jaffar saw a good opportunity and claimed himself as an Imam to get access to the Khums money that Shias gave to Imams. Some followers of Imam Askari (as) went and followed him but later on after a while realised that Jaffar was not suited for Imamate, was not the most pious or neither knowledgable or just and left him and joined back to be the follower of Imam Mahdi (as). Remember that, there were many other small sect which deviated from the true path during the life time of different Imams, such as the Waqifis, Ismalis, Zayidis etc but After the demise of Imam Askari (as), the followers of the Imam separated and formed different sects (Some books mention almost 16 or 19 different sects, and Jaffari was one of them).

 

Ya Ali 

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The elder brother of Imam Askari (as) was Muhammad who died before the Imam and I think even before his father (as) (and was a pious, good Muslim), Jafar was younger than the Imam (as) and there was another younger brother, Hussain.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

Wa salam.

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Bismillah.

 

Salaam brother.

 

Please ponder on this Hadith, which is mentioned in Kamāl al-Dīn wa Tamām al-Niʻmah, vol.1, p.321.

 

Note: I just wanted to mention the related part of the Hadith, but I realized it would be blessing for all friends to read it completely;

 

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْوَرَّاقُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ الصُّوفِيُّ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُوسَى‏ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْعَظِيمِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَسَنِيِّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي صَفْوَانُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ أَبِي زِيَادٍ عَنْ أَبِي حَمْزَةَ الثُّمَالِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي خَالِدٍ الْكَابُلِيِّ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى سَيِّدِي عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ زَيْنِ الْعَابِدِينَ ع فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أَخْبِرْنِي بِالَّذِينَ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ طَاعَتَهُمْ وَ مَوَدَّتَهُمْ وَ أَوْجَبَ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ الِاقْتِدَاءَ بِهِمْ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص فَقَالَ لِي يَا كَنْكَرُ إِنَّ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ الَّذِينَ جَعَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ أَئِمَّةً لِلنَّاسِ وَ أَوْجَبَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَاعَتَهُمْ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ع ثُمَّ الْحَسَنُ ثُمَّ الْحُسَيْنُ ابْنَا عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ثُمَّ انْتَهَى الْأَمْرُ إِلَيْنَا ثُمَّ سَكَتَ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا سَيِّدِي رُوِيَ لَنَا عَنْ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلِيٍّ ع أَنَّ الْأَرْضَ لَا تَخْلُو مِنْ حُجَّةٍ لِلَّهِ جَلَّ وَ عَزَّ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ فَمَنِ الْحُجَّةُ وَ الْإِمَامُ بَعْدَكَ قَالَ ابْنِي مُحَمَّدٌ وَ اسْمُهُ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ بَاقِرٌ يَبْقُرُ الْعِلْمَ بَقْراً هُوَ الْحُجَّةُ وَ الْإِمَامُ بَعْدِي وَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مُحَمَّدٍ ابْنُهُ جَعْفَرٌ وَ اسْمُهُ عِنْدَ أَهْلِ السَّمَاءِ الصَّادِقُ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا سَيِّدِي فَكَيْفَ صَارَ اسْمُهُ الصَّادِقَ وَ كُلُّكُمْ صَادِقُونَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي عَنْ أَبِيهِ ع أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص قَالَ إِذَا وُلِدَ ابْنِي جَعْفَرُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ع فَسَمُّوهُ الصَّادِقَ فَإِنَّ لِلْخَامِسِ مِنْ وُلْدِهِ وَلَداً اسْمُهُ جَعْفَرٌ يَدَّعِي الْإِمَامَةَ اجْتِرَاءً عَلَى اللَّهِ وَ كَذِباً عَلَيْهِ فَهُوَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ جَعْفَرٌ الْكَذَّابُ الْمُفْتَرِي عَلَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ الْمُدَّعِي لِمَا لَيْسَ لَهُ بِأَهْلٍ الْمُخَالِفُ عَلَى أَبِيهِ وَ الْحَاسِدُ لِأَخِيهِ ذَلِكَ الَّذِي يَرُومُ كَشْفَ سَتْرِ اللَّهِ عِنْدَ غَيْبَةِ وَلِيِّ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ ثُمَ بَكَى عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ ع بُكَاءً شَدِيداً ثُمَّ قَالَ كَأَنِّي بِجَعْفَرٍ الْكَذَّابِ وَ قَدْ حَمَلَ طَاغِيَةَ زَمَانِهِ عَلَى تَفْتِيشِ أَمْرِ وَلِيِّ اللَّهِ وَ الْمُغَيَّبِ فِي حِفْظِ اللَّهِ وَ التَّوْكِيلِ بِحَرَمِ أَبِيهِ جَهْلًا مِنْهُ بِوِلَادَتِهِ وَ حِرْصاً مِنْهُ عَلَى قَتْلِهِ إِنْ ظَفِرَ بِهِ وَ طَمَعاً فِي مِيرَاثِهِ حَتَّى يَأْخُذَهُ بِغَيْرِ حَقِّهِ قَالَ أَبُو خَالِدٍ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ وَ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ لَكَائِنٌ فَقَالَ إِي وَ رَبِّي إِنَّ ذَلِكَ لَمَكْتُوبٌ عِنْدَنَا فِي الصَّحِيفَةِ الَّتِي فِيهَا ذِكْرُ الْمِحَنِ الَّتِي تَجْرِي عَلَيْنَا بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص قَالَ أَبُو خَالِدٍ فَقُلْتُ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَكُونُ مَا ذَا قَالَ ثُمَّ تَمْتَدُّ الْغَيْبَةُ بِوَلِيِّ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ الثَّانِي عَشَرَ مِنْ أَوْصِيَاءِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ الْأَئِمَّةِ بَعْدَهُ يَا أَبَا خَالِدٍ إِنَّ أَهْلَ زَمَانِ غَيْبَتِهِ الْقَائِلِينَ بِإِمَامَتِهِ وَ الْمُنْتَظِرِينَ لِظُهُورِهِ أَفْضَلُ مِنْ أَهْلِ كُلِّ زَمَانٍ لِأَنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى أَعْطَاهُمْ مِنَ الْعُقُولِ وَ الْأَفْهَامِ وَ الْمَعْرِفَةِ مَا صَارَتْ بِهِ الْغَيْبَةُ عِنْدَهُمْ بِمَنْزِلَةِ الْمُشَاهَدَةِ وَ جَعَلَهُمْ فِي ذَلِكَ الزَّمَانِ بِمَنْزِلَةِ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بَيْنَ يَدَيْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص بِالسَّيْفِ أُولَئِكَ الْمُخْلَصُونَ حَقّاً وَ شِيعَتُنَا صِدْقاً وَ الدُّعَاةُ إِلَى دِينِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ سِرّاً وَ جَهْراً وَ قَالَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ ع انْتِظَارُ الْفَرَجِ مِنْ أَعْظَمِ الْفَرَجِ.

 

And there are other Ahādīth if you want to know let me know to post.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

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Ja’far, generally known as Kazzab, was the son of Imam Ali Naqi (a.s.) and the brother of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.). Since he had claimed Imamate against Imam Mahdi (a.j.), the biographers refer to him as Kazzab (liar). He was initially a wayward and an evil person. He had left no stone unturned in his enmity to Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.). He did not give up trying to get the Imam (a.s.) imprisoned, though he always failed in his efforts.

Regarding Ja’far Kazzab and his son, there is a saying of Imam Mahdi (a.j.) that they are like the brothers of Yusuf (a.s.). Tabarsi and some other scholars are of the view that Ja’far had repented like the brothers of Yusuf (a.s.) and that after this repentance, he came to be known as Ja’far Tawwab (Ja’far the repentant). This is also supported by the tradition of Riyazush Shahadat.


If one casts even a cursory glance at the political and religious scenario at the time of Ghaibat-e-Sughra, he will appreciate the significance of the deputyship of Hazrat Usman bin Saeed (r.a.).

The government had appointed spies in every nook and corner so as to keep a close watch on the Shias of Imam (a.t.f.s.), especially the trusted and reliable Shias who were known to be proximate to Imam (a.t.f.s.).
As if the government's persecution was not enough, the differences between the Shias and outbreak of various sects only added to the confusion. Under such trying circumstances, deputyship was an impossible task.

However, under Imam's (a.t.f.s.) constant supervision and guidance, the Shias were rescued from the darkness of doubt and uncertainty and were steered towards the light of guidance and certainty. Being the special deputy of Imam Mahdi (a.t.f.s.), Hazrat Usman bin Saeed (r.a.) played a very important role in this regard.
The criticality of his role can never be fully comprehended and appreciated. On the one hand, he had to unite the Shias who had split into many sects. On the other hand, he had to contend with Jafar Ibne Ali Naqi the government's candidate for the role of Shiite leadership. To challenge Jafar was a monumental task.

On the martyrdom of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.), Jafar usurped the mantle of Imam's (a.s.) successorship, which gave him the right to lead the Shias after Imam (a.s.).
Shaikh Mufeed (r.a.) writes in his book 'Kitabul Irshad': 'After the martyrdom of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.) when Jafar Ibne Ali Naqi (famous as 'Jafar-e-Kazzab') saw that their Imam (a.s.) did not have a successor, he usurped his (a.s.) property, imprisoned his (a.s.) maids and the women of the household and said evil things about his (a.s.) companions who were steadfast in their faith that Imam (a.s.) had a son and were waiting for his reappearance. He threatened them but they did not pay attention to him. Finally, Jafar approached the Caliph of the time and sought his assistance to claim the position of his brother (Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.)). He paid a huge amount to the government by way of bribe, but failed miserably in his evil plans.'
(Kitabul Irshad, chap. 34)
Hazrat Usman bin Saeed (r.a.) had to face the uphill task of Jafar's claim of Imamat, his standing to lead the funeral prayers of Imam (a.s.) and creating doubts about the Imamat of Imam-e-Zaman (a.t.f.s.). He provoked the government of the time to help him in his cause, he imprisoned the Ahle Bait (a.s.) and persecuted them and sought religious dues (khums, zakat) from the people. Under these grievous circumstances Hazrat Usman bin Saeed (r.a.) with the help of Imam-e-Zaman (a.s.) humiliated Jafar and protected the status and Imamat of Imam-e-Zaman (a.t.f.s.).
When the Shias heard of Jafar's claim and his usurping Imam's (a.s.) property and seeking help from Bani Abbas, some of them consulted Hazrat Usman bin Saeed (r.a.) and requested for a 'Tawqee' from Imam-e-Zaman (a.t.f.s.) to clarify the matter and remove all suspicion and doubts once and for all. Our readers should find the following incident very interesting.
Jafar bin Ali wrote a letter to a follower of Imam Mahdi (a.t.f.s.) - I am the Imam after my brother and I have the knowledge of the permissible and the prohibited and all other sciences with me. When the companion received the letter, he became sorrowful. He took the letter to Ahmad bin Ishaaq Ashari, a close confidante of Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.). Ahmad bin Ishaaq wrote a letter to Imam-e-Zaman (a.t.f.s.) enclosing Jafar's letter. He gave it to Usman bin Saeed (a.s.) to be forwarded to Imam-e-Zaman (a.t.f.s.). Imam (a.t.f.s.) gave a very strong-worded reply and refuted the Imamat of Jafar. Following is the extract of Imam's (a.t.f.s.) letter:
'This defrauder (Jafar) has falsified Allah and has claimed Imamat. We do not know on what basis he has made such a claim. If he claims knowledge in the Ahkam and Fiqh of Allah's religion, then by Allah, he is not able to distinguish between the permissible and the prohibited. He cannot distinguish between the clear and ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. He is not even aware about the limits and timings of namaz. And if he is having certainty about his piety then by Allah he has forsaken namaz for forty days. His claim should be based on a miracle. Let him forward his miracle and if he has proof then he should explain it.'
(Pazoohashi Piraamun, pg. 128, narrating from Ehtejaaj-e-Tabarsi, vol. 2, pg. 468)
It was with the representation of Hazrat Usman bin Saeed (r.a.) that such letters could reach Imam (a.t.f.s.) and Jafar failed in his nefarious plans. Once in a gathering Hazrat Usman bin Saeed (r.a.) said 'The caliph (Motamid-e-Abbasi) thought that Imam Hasan Askari (a.s.) left this world without appointing his successor and gave his inheritance to such a person (Jafar) who did not deserve it. The followers of Imam (a.s.) were patient on it and were vacillating in state of confusion. Nobody dared to recognize him and help him or to convey something to him.
(Usule Kafi, vol.2, pg. 121, Persian edition)

 

http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=4812

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He is a liar because he claimed to be the next Imam while he was not; that's a big lie!

P.S.: Isis self-claimed leader, al-Baghdadi, claims to be a descendant of Ja'far the liar ( Obviously they don't refer to him as "the liar"; they say al-Baghdadi is a descendant of Ja'far b. Hadi)

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The elder brother of Imam Askari (as) was Muhammad who died before the Imam and I think even before his father (as) (and was a pious, good Muslim), Jafar was younger than the Imam (as) and there was another younger brother, Hussain.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

Wa salam.

 

Thanks for correcting me, Indeed Muhammad was the older son of Imam Hadi (as)

Bismillah.

 

Salaam brother.

 

Please ponder on this Hadith, which is mentioned in Kamāl al-Dīn wa Tamām al-Niʻmah, vol.1, p.321.

 

Note: I just wanted to mention the related part of the Hadith, but I realized it would be blessing for all friends to read it completely;

 

حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْوَرَّاقُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ الصُّوفِيُّ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُوسَى‏ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْعَظِيمِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْحَسَنِيِّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي صَفْوَانُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ أَبِي زِيَادٍ عَنْ أَبِي حَمْزَةَ الثُّمَالِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي خَالِدٍ الْكَابُلِيِّ قَالَ: دَخَلْتُ عَلَى سَيِّدِي عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ زَيْنِ الْعَابِدِينَ ع فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أَخْبِرْنِي بِالَّذِينَ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ طَاعَتَهُمْ وَ مَوَدَّتَهُمْ وَ أَوْجَبَ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ الِاقْتِدَاءَ بِهِمْ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص فَقَالَ لِي يَا كَنْكَرُ إِنَّ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ الَّذِينَ جَعَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ أَئِمَّةً لِلنَّاسِ وَ أَوْجَبَ عَلَيْهِمْ طَاعَتَهُمْ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ع ثُمَّ الْحَسَنُ ثُمَّ الْحُسَيْنُ ابْنَا عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ثُمَّ انْتَهَى الْأَمْرُ إِلَيْنَا ثُمَّ سَكَتَ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا سَيِّدِي رُوِيَ لَنَا عَنْ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ عَلِيٍّ ع أَنَّ الْأَرْضَ لَا تَخْلُو مِنْ حُجَّةٍ لِلَّهِ جَلَّ وَ عَزَّ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ فَمَنِ الْحُجَّةُ وَ الْإِمَامُ بَعْدَكَ قَالَ ابْنِي مُحَمَّدٌ وَ اسْمُهُ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ بَاقِرٌ يَبْقُرُ الْعِلْمَ بَقْراً هُوَ الْحُجَّةُ وَ الْإِمَامُ بَعْدِي وَ مِنْ بَعْدِ مُحَمَّدٍ ابْنُهُ جَعْفَرٌ وَ اسْمُهُ عِنْدَ أَهْلِ السَّمَاءِ الصَّادِقُ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا سَيِّدِي فَكَيْفَ صَارَ اسْمُهُ الصَّادِقَ وَ كُلُّكُمْ صَادِقُونَ قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي أَبِي عَنْ أَبِيهِ ع أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص قَالَ إِذَا وُلِدَ ابْنِي جَعْفَرُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ بْنِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ع فَسَمُّوهُ الصَّادِقَ فَإِنَّ لِلْخَامِسِ مِنْ وُلْدِهِ وَلَداً اسْمُهُ جَعْفَرٌ يَدَّعِي الْإِمَامَةَ اجْتِرَاءً عَلَى اللَّهِ وَ كَذِباً عَلَيْهِ فَهُوَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ جَعْفَرٌ الْكَذَّابُ الْمُفْتَرِي عَلَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ الْمُدَّعِي لِمَا لَيْسَ لَهُ بِأَهْلٍ الْمُخَالِفُ عَلَى أَبِيهِ وَ الْحَاسِدُ لِأَخِيهِ ذَلِكَ الَّذِي يَرُومُ كَشْفَ سَتْرِ اللَّهِ عِنْدَ غَيْبَةِ وَلِيِّ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ ثُمَ بَكَى عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ ع بُكَاءً شَدِيداً ثُمَّ قَالَ كَأَنِّي بِجَعْفَرٍ الْكَذَّابِ وَ قَدْ حَمَلَ طَاغِيَةَ زَمَانِهِ عَلَى تَفْتِيشِ أَمْرِ وَلِيِّ اللَّهِ وَ الْمُغَيَّبِ فِي حِفْظِ اللَّهِ وَ التَّوْكِيلِ بِحَرَمِ أَبِيهِ جَهْلًا مِنْهُ بِوِلَادَتِهِ وَ حِرْصاً مِنْهُ عَلَى قَتْلِهِ إِنْ ظَفِرَ بِهِ وَ طَمَعاً فِي مِيرَاثِهِ حَتَّى يَأْخُذَهُ بِغَيْرِ حَقِّهِ قَالَ أَبُو خَالِدٍ فَقُلْتُ لَهُ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ وَ إِنَّ ذَلِكَ لَكَائِنٌ فَقَالَ إِي وَ رَبِّي إِنَّ ذَلِكَ لَمَكْتُوبٌ عِنْدَنَا فِي الصَّحِيفَةِ الَّتِي فِيهَا ذِكْرُ الْمِحَنِ الَّتِي تَجْرِي عَلَيْنَا بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص قَالَ أَبُو خَالِدٍ فَقُلْتُ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَكُونُ مَا ذَا قَالَ ثُمَّ تَمْتَدُّ الْغَيْبَةُ بِوَلِيِّ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ الثَّانِي عَشَرَ مِنْ أَوْصِيَاءِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ الْأَئِمَّةِ بَعْدَهُ يَا أَبَا خَالِدٍ إِنَّ أَهْلَ زَمَانِ غَيْبَتِهِ الْقَائِلِينَ بِإِمَامَتِهِ وَ الْمُنْتَظِرِينَ لِظُهُورِهِ أَفْضَلُ مِنْ أَهْلِ كُلِّ زَمَانٍ لِأَنَّ اللَّهَ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى أَعْطَاهُمْ مِنَ الْعُقُولِ وَ الْأَفْهَامِ وَ الْمَعْرِفَةِ مَا صَارَتْ بِهِ الْغَيْبَةُ عِنْدَهُمْ بِمَنْزِلَةِ الْمُشَاهَدَةِ وَ جَعَلَهُمْ فِي ذَلِكَ الزَّمَانِ بِمَنْزِلَةِ الْمُجَاهِدِينَ بَيْنَ يَدَيْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص بِالسَّيْفِ أُولَئِكَ الْمُخْلَصُونَ حَقّاً وَ شِيعَتُنَا صِدْقاً وَ الدُّعَاةُ إِلَى دِينِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ سِرّاً وَ جَهْراً وَ قَالَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ ع انْتِظَارُ الْفَرَجِ مِنْ أَعْظَمِ الْفَرَجِ.

 

And there are other Ahādīth if you want to know let me know to post.

 

With Duas.

 

Narsis.

 

If you could somehow post the english translation, it would be really amazing. God bless you for the effort 

 

Ya Ali

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You forgot "better spouse".[/No quote]

No I didn't. I am not married. I guess you didn't read my profile. In any case that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

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Salam :)

 

Haven't you asked same/similar questions in other threads? I'm sure I stumbled upon some when I was browsing through old threads.

 

To answer your question- just because someone claims the Imamat doesn't make him an Imam. It's especially interesting in this case as Jafar claimed Imamat publicly - something no other Imam before him has done (due to obvious reasons). If he, indeed, was the 12th Imam why did he announce it publicly? That would be a really stupid move for an Imam (astaghfirullah!) since their enemies were many, especially of the last one. Besides, that's not the first time someone claimed something which wasn't true, is it? Ismailis claim that Ismail was 7th Imam and I believe that Ismail's son claimed Imamat for himself even though Imam Kadhim (as) was there? Or that companion of Imam Kadhim (as) who claimed that the Imam (as) was the Qaim and in occultation and he was his representative- wasn't any true just because he claimed it.

 

And since Jafar claimed Imamat, it was up to him to proof it, wasn't it? But if looking at everything we know about him, he didn't seem to be very religious or knowledgeable and apparently had some kind of animosity toward his brother, Imam Hasan al-Askari (as). Not the best traits in an Imam, are they? Imam Askari's few companions were wary of him and honestly doubted his claim, probably because they knew of his character and also, because they (some of them) knew about Imam Mahdi. I don't know what there's to explain about the events after Imam Askari's death? Jafar saw on opportunity to bring himself to the forefront and seized it, simple. Though, there are indications that later on in his life, he repented for what he did.

 

Adding to that, Imam Hasan and Hussain (as) were the only two brothers to be Imams, ever. There are Hadiths stating this such as this: "The Imamate will not be in two brothers after Hassan and Hussain (...)" (Kulayni: Al- Kafi, Vol. 1. P. 286 and Mufid: Al- Irshad, P. 289 and Saduq: Ikmal al- Din, P. 414). I remember that there are more such narrations.

 

Wa salam.

OK I guess you missed the point and maybe that is because I was not clear. I don't mean how do we know he was lying about being the Imam so much as how do we know he was lying that Askari (as) never had a son.

Also I am asking how he could claim Imamate if it was already known who the Imam was. 12er of ten cite hadith stating that the names of the Imams were known before they were even born. I think those hadith are fabricated/a load of malarkey because if that were the case the many disputes over who the Imam of the time was would never have occurred. Zaydiyyah and Ismaili yah would not even exist if there was an accepted list of 12 names.

This brings me to the next part of my response. People DID proclaim Imamate publicly. I have no idea why you say otherwise. Imam Hussein (as) did so, Imam Zayd (as) did so as did a number of other Zaydi and Ismaili Imams (as).

I love and embrace all the Imams (as) from the Zaydi AND the 12ver lines as Blessed members of the Ahl Al Bayt and regard some of them as Imams of knowledge even if they were not Imams of the age.

As far as the claims of the 7ers I have not researched them. I should make it a point to do that.

In any case I find the 12vers claims that being an Imam was dangerous to on the one hand be very TRUE UT also very confusing since Zaydi Imams somehow managed to rule their own states in Tatarstan , southern Spain and eventually in Yemen. Why was one group of Imams able to thrive while the other had to hide? I gotta look into that........

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Salam :)

Well, I don't know if anyone can answer you this to your satisfaction, and I am no expert in regards to hadiths. But let's assume that those hadiths mentioning explicit names are authentic- who would have access to them? Would the Imams (as) let each and every of their Shia see it? Just because you are a Shia (or call yourself this) doesn't mean that you are one by heart- calling yourself a Shia didn't automatically make you completely loyal to your Imam, did it? And the more people knew about it, the greater was the risk for someone outside to know (as far as I know, many Shias were being 'watched' by the caliphs) - if the information leaked out, do you honestly think no one would have tried to kill the next Imam as soon as he was born, thus ending the line of Imamat?

But let's also assume that many Shia actually knew about this - so what? Most Muslims knew about Ghadir Khumm, didn't stop them from ignoring it's importance. Just because someone knows something doesn't mean they will value it, especially if they find more benefit in something else. Though, if we disregard the narrations with explicit names, well, there are many narrations about 12 successors to the prophet (pbuh), even found in all Sahi Sunni books. And looking at the incident of the old Sahabi of the prophet (pbuh) who met Imam Baqir (as) and recognized him as the 5th in line of the prophet (pbuh) or at the sermon Imam Sajjad (as) gave in Yazid's court (mentioning Imam Mahdi), apparently there were people who knew the Imams (some of them, at least) by name before they were born.

About Jafar and how we know that he was lying about Imam Mahdi's existence: How do we know that he wasn't? There are so many hadiths (Shii and non-Shii, I believe) that tell us about the 12th Imam, people who have seen him and all- they can't be ignored just because Jafar says otherwise. I do remember that there are many threads about Imam Mahdi's birth and how it was held secret even from the closest relatives, so I won't repeat all that, but: Is it not logical that Jafar would deny the existence of his nephew? If he didn't do so, he couldn't have brought forward his claim to Imamat nor to the possessions his brother had left behind since there was a successor. Btw, I was wondering- how many people actually believed his claim? As far as I am aware, Imam Askari's (as) companions didn't believe him, they believed in Imam Mahdi. Why would they do that if not told by their Imam? Besides, taking into account Jafar's personality and his animosity toward his elder brother, can he be taken reliable in this regard?

Well, that might be, but we don't believe that Zayd ibn Ali ever claimed Imamat, so that won't bring us far, I fear. Though, just a thought: If you were rebelling against a government, you obviously need supporters. How to gain those supporters? By trying to win their sympathies- especially those of Shias. And the title Imam holds a certain power in this regard. By claiming yourself as Imam and furthermore, someone who wants to fight against oppression, you try to make the people come toward you and fight with you. That's also very logical.

The Abbasids did something similar- not claiming Imamat, but calling the people to Ahl-e-Muhammad. Gaining their sympathies in this way. And in order to do so, you have to do it publicly.

As for your last point: The question here is- is it a priority for an Imam to rule? Why would they want to rule parts of an Islamic empire, thus adding to more and more division? If that had been the case, Imam Ali (as) wouldn't have strived for unity and would have fought for his right, but he didn't (thus, didn't act for personal gain). Adding to this, we see that later Imams concentrated more on teaching than anything else, reminding me of how Imam Ali (as) told the people to ask him (regarding religion) before they lose him. So, to answer your question, you have to understand this: Why didn't Imam Ridha (as) take the caliphate when offered to him? Why didn't Imam Ali fight for it? Why did Imam Hussain (as) set out only after receiving the letters from Kufa?

Yes, it was their right, but ruling (for ruling's sake) wasn't what they desired, per se. How would it have made them any different to other caliphs if they founded their own reign? Wouldn't that have been a testament as to that they were acting out of personal reasons? And that's never good (in Khaybar, I think, Imam Ali didn't kill Marhab the first chance he had (after Marhab did something, spit on him?) but took the next chance and when asked why he didn't kill him that first moment, he said because then, I would have killed him out of personal desire (anger)). Their priority was to spread knowledge and uphold the message of Islam, which they did the best they could. Having the caliphate would have made it easier, but teaching the people about Islam was more important than a wordly title and power.

I hope that that was somehow helpful? I noticed that you ask these questions quite often, like 'If people knew the Imams, why did they follow another' - personally, I don't see whay it is so hard to understand this. But that's maybe because I'm 12er Shia and am familiar with all this? In any way, maybe a more knowledgeable brother or sister might be able to help you better ;)

Wa salam.

Edited by Noor al-Batul

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How do we know he was lying?

How did he claim Imamate if the Imam was known?

Can 12ers explain the events following the death of Imam Askari(as)?

No rants please. This is a fair question.

Well, there are few beliefs that are peculiar to 12ers not as 12ers but as followers of those 12 at any time between the first and the 12th.

Followers of ahlulbayt maintained that prophet had appointed imam Ali. This is called Nass. Nass can be simply explained in the following example: if a man planned to travel leaving behind him his company, he would either give general orders as in "make sure that everything works well" or he can point to a certain individual and give certain orders concerning details of work. This is called Nass.

So followers of ahlulbayt do not consider themselves a political movement nor a historical trend nor a philosophical school nor a result of ijtihad, rather they see themselves as orthodox and fundamentalists.

This huge emphasis on the importance of Nass comes from a deeper belief in the prophet's infallibility. Thus the prophet words are not negotiable.

This infallibility in extended to the prophet successors . If you are familiar with the Islamic jurisprudence about leadership and the obedience of Wali alamr, you may have an idea about the significant of the word khalifah, what it carries within it of meanings and how it can easily bring you to the conclusion of the obligation to obey a rightful khalifah, giving that the khalifah order must not contradict that of Allah's and his prophet. Thus a khalifah appointed by an infallible like our prophet then we are put under obligation to follow him by Allah who will not order us to follow misguided, these all should mean that the next khalifah is infallible, and his successor if there is a Nass must be infallible.

Prophet appointed imam Ali who appointed alhassan. ....... until we reach to imam alaskari. There is no Nass about him. Nothing in our history or hadith books or in any of our opponents books say that ja'afar the liar was an imam by Nass.

We come to the 12 imams mentioned by numbers and by names.

If we belive that the true imam is infallible, shall we still need a hadith containing a name or a number? Or is a cascade of Nass, a series of hadiths of appointments should suffice ?

If we only believed In their infallibility and the obligation to obey their orders, a Nass of appointment should be more than enough.

On top of these beliefs , I do believe personally that imams were good leaders of the people of their sect as well as other sects. They had an impact on the masses. They managed to incite intellectual environment , avoid counter productive animosity while keeping a balance between announcing themselves as great teachers and hiding themselves as great leaders.

During battles of imam Ali with his opponents, he used to avoid sending imam hassan and Hussain to front lines. He treasured them. Imam Hussain as well asked his sister to hold his son, imam Ali , in the battle of karbala. He said that imam Ali should be kept safe so that the line of progeny of prophet muhamad will be preserved.

Every imam was treasuring the next imam, overly protecting them. Imam sadiq when he died, he gave many appointments to a number of his sons so that the Abbasi caliph will not be able to figure who is the next imam.

Imam Mahdi birth was mentioned in many hadiths to resemble the birth of prophet Moses and prophet Ibrahim. Prophet Moses mother did not appear as pregnant. Pharaoh ordered that every Israeli pregnant woman should be aborted or that her new born baby boy is killed. But prophet Musa mother was saved from this by Allah mercy, she didn't appear as pregnant. She wasn't allowed to breast fed him initially.

Prophet Ibrahim as well was born at times of extreme taqqyiah. His mother hid him in a cave. That's why we read the story of him with sun and star. That was when he first came out from the cave.

The imam Mahdi birth was prophesied to be the same. Only a handful of individuals that were very trustful managed to know about imam Mahdi existence . Ja'far the liar was not qualified for this honor.

How we do know that he is a liar ? We have a number of rules.

1- there must be an infallible imam

2- he must be from the line of Fatimah, son of Ali, son of Hussain , son of the imams after Hussain.

3- no brothers as 2 imams after hassan and Hussain.

4- must be appointed by Nass.

There are hadith about 12 imams, hadiths about son of the fifth, son of seventh from the progeny of the fifth, the third from the ninth etc. His birth is hidden, he must be not older than 40, he will not make deals with any ruler, he will live in occultation.

If there are hadiths containing names, why there was disagreement?

As I said, imams were good leaders, they treasured the next imam and they treasured the names. They gave then to entrusted believes who were very pious. A very pious man will have an insight , divine insight given by Allah.

إن عبدي يتقرب الي بالتواصل حتى أكون عينه التي ترى.

A number of scholars believe that those narrators who narrated the hadiths of names of the imams were high esteemed.

There are many hadiths in which the imam orders a companion to hold up and not expose the truth. It wasn't it's time yet but the truth must be transmitted to next generation and thousands of generations to come in a way that regular humans can fathom .

That's why hadiths existed but we're not revealed, or revealed later or kept as secret instead of being popular.

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I studied this somewhere (Can't remember the book) but it stated that the reason why Jafar claimed Imamate was to somehow claim Imam Hasan al-Askari's (as) possessions, He wanted to be his inheritor (To get his property, wealth etc). But Imam Hasan Askari (as) gave away all his belonging to his sister. After the demise of Imam Askari (as), Jaffar wanted to grasp the inheritance from his sister, and even took her to the court of the caliph of the time. Later on, the Inheritance was divided equally. 

 

Some Shias of those time claimed that Immate was to belong to the oldest son and Jaffar was older than Imam Askari (as). After the demise of Imam Askari (as), Jaffar saw a good opportunity and claimed himself as an Imam to get access to the Khums money that Shias gave to Imams. Some followers of Imam Askari (as) went and followed him but later on after a while realised that Jaffar was not suited for Imamate, was not the most pious or neither knowledgable or just and left him and joined back to be the follower of Imam Mahdi (as). Remember that, there were many other small sect which deviated from the true path during the life time of different Imams, such as the Waqifis, Ismalis, Zayidis etc but After the demise of Imam Askari (as), the followers of the Imam separated and formed different sects (Some books mention almost 16 or 19 different sects, and Jaffari was one of them).

 

Ya Ali 

Thank you for your answer.

Zaydis were no small sect though. They were thre biggest branch until the rise of the Safavid empire.

 

But look here's what I don't understand. How, according to  12ers does one become the Imam ? I have heard that they are appointed by Allah and I have heard that the current Imam picks his successor. I am speaking about the past of course as the 12th and final Imam is in ghayba. But which is it ? Allah appoints or Imam appoints ?

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Thank you for your answer.

Zaydis were no small sect though. They were thre biggest branch until the rise of the Safavid empire.

 

But look here's what I don't understand. How, according to  12ers does one become the Imam ? I have heard that they are appointed by Allah and I have heard that the current Imam picks his successor. I am speaking about the past of course as the 12th and final Imam is in ghayba. But which is it ? Allah appoints or Imam appoints ?

 

Salam :)

 

Well, you asked the brother, but I hope you don't mind me answering?

 

As we believe that Allah has chosen Imam Ali (as) as successor to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) we believe that each and every Imam is chosen by Allah. For instance, Imam Jafar (as) couldn't choose just any of his sons as his successor as he pleased, it wasn't his decision - it's Allah's will (and generally, an Imam does nothing that goes against Allah's will). And just because an Imam announces his heir, this doesn't mean he chose him- it only means that he tells his followers whom Allah has chosen as the next in line- it's happened all the time through history; prophets knew their successors (as chosen by Allah) as did Imams- an individual himself can't just claim to be the next Imam, especially not if his father had said otherwise.

 

There are also certain criteria by which an Imam may be recognized- e.g. he must have specific qualities in him (all of them) like justice, inerrancy, perspicacity, complete submission to Allah (Imam Sajjad (as) is said to have prayed a two ruku salat whenever he passed a tree; Imams apparently used to pray 1000 rukus salats in the months of Ramadhan; Imam Kadhim (as) when imprisoned was thankful that he was able to worship Allah in solitude!) and of course, an abundance of knowledge. It was a common practice that those who had doubts about their Imam (mostly regarding the later ones) tested them with questions- the previous Imam will recognize all these qualities (I also heard that an Imam, upon his birth, says the shahada, at least I heard it in the context of Imam Taqi's (as) birth but don't know how authentic this narration is).

 

Allah has created everything and everyone, He knows which of his creations is infallible and so on. Allah chooses the Imam, prophet Muhammad knows him (and announces him as he did with Ali (as) and we believe that the prophet knew which of his descendants will each succeed him, hence the names, and that's a possibility how each Imam knew who their successor would be) and the previous Imam announces the next one.

 

Wa salam.

Edited by Noor al-Batul

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Thank you for your answer.

Zaydis were no small sect though. They were thre biggest branch until the rise of the Safavid empire.

 

But look here's what I don't understand. How, according to  12ers does one become the Imam ? I have heard that they are appointed by Allah and I have heard that the current Imam picks his successor. I am speaking about the past of course as the 12th and final Imam is in ghayba. But which is it ? Allah appoints or Imam appoints ?

Imams are appointed by Allah, the most sublime. When Imam picks his successor, He is only complying with Allah's order. If the previous Imam does not appoints his successor, than people will question and doubt the one who claims himself an Imam. The same way that Prophet (S) appointed his successor in Ghadir Khum by Allah's Oder, in the same way, Imam appoints his successor only with Allah's permission. 

 

Ya Ali

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