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enigma313

Black Spot Supposedly Removed From Prophet's Heart

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Salam, 

It seems that some brothers believe Islam can only be understood by academics and those who understand and can read and write Arabic.


Just want to say that I'm not an academic nor do I know Arabic but I'm not a fool and know very well who and what my dear and beloved Prophet is. 
 

Edited by Iskandarovich

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(salam)

 

 

Bro, just stop. You started your post with a blanket statement saying "Shias unanimously reject such fairytale" - which as I have shown above, it is a lie. You have full right to provide your research and then your opinion, but the problem is you have absolutely no tools or skills to do any real research, and therefore your opinions are also spineless and filled with rhetoric. There are people here who have actually studied for years and yet are so cautious in giving final verdicts on matters.

 

I still dont get you. If you are going to provide the proof translate it. Otherwise, to me you havnt proved anything. Yea I know farsi, but my level of vocab is not strong enough to understood the scholarly works. LOL my opinions are spineless, how are they spineless. I neither insulted you nor harassed you. No need to get all emotional. So what if people studied for years and are cautious? Good for them, it doesnt deny my right of an opinion. People are free to change their opinions, when they feel convinced right? It is neither a sin nor a wrong. You could have kindly corrected me, no need for arrogance.

 

 

You seem very arrogant in your opinions if this is how incompetent you are that you need a translation for some simple Arabic (even after a few years of just debating and arguing here - you could have spent a lot of your time fixing up your comprehension in all honesty), and also the quote from Tafsir-e Nemunah is in Farsi (which I believe should have been your native language?). Furthermore, I don't need to translate the whole sentence or paragraph when I have already paraphrased the meaning of it.

 

I seem arrogant? You came on me with subtle insults, and I simply asked you if you are going to provide proof, at least translate it on an ENGLISH forum. I have been on this site for like 2 almost 3 years. You expect me to learn even basic arabic, without realizing I have a busy life? How understanding of you. You do in fact need to translate it. Anyone can paraphrase it how ever they like. I have also provided a tafsir where it implies that verse is speaking about the miraj...

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(salam)

 

LOL my opinions are spineless, how are they spineless.

 

All your bogus aside, if your opinion is not spineless, please prove it to us, do us a favour by showing us your research on this specific incident (which you defined as a fairy tale), the multiple variations that exist in the narrations and the possible indicators to when exactly the event took place and how many times in his life did it take place, the opinion of our learned scholars on the subject, the general opinion of the Sunni scholars on the subject and whether they are also all unanimous or not, those who accept the event - how have they understood it and how have they reconciled it with his traits that are well known, and those who reject it - why are they rejecting it (is it because of it being contradictory with the Prophet's traits or is it because the general events of the story may have some roots in a tale that existed during the Age of Ignorance and thus this could be a possible fabrication, or are they rejecting it based on the chain of narrations). . .

 

I think when you address some of the aspects above, then your opinion would be worth something. I have no opinion on this incident, because I have actually done no real research on it (besides just being familiar with the opinions of 3 Shi'i scholars - 2 of whom I quoted above). If you would have done perhaps just a little reading you would have known why the incident was discussed under the verse of Mi'raj by Allamah Tabatabaee.

 

at least translate it on an ENGLISH forum

 

If you take your "opinions" back (re: rejecting the incident all together - presently - and saying that Shi'i scholars are unanimous that this is a fairy-tale), I will consider it. Until then, I actually don't see any reason or point in translating it for you and my paraphrasing is sufficient.

 

Wassalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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MY opinion is based on two mere factors, the quran and logic, in support with ismah in our narrations, of which I did provide evidence. That satan CANNOT affect prophets.

 

 

All your bogus aside, if your opinion is not spineless, please prove it to us, do us a favour by showing us your research on this specific incident (which you defined as a fairy tale), the multiple variations that exist in the narrations and the possible indicators to when exactly the event took place and how many times in his life did it take place

 

 

No one (besides mujtahids) can provide this much information. Not even your rijal buddies on SC. I barely have any english sources, let alone all our scholarly works, in arabic and farsi. Plus, language is a limiting factor. Even when a few of your friends or you yourself on site argue something, you quote just a few scholars from a few sources that you agree with. Since when was SC or E-Rijal's ever fair with their research that you expect me to be, and provide an unbiased report? You would first have to find the narration from all our books. That is why at times the conclusions derived from our scholars are enough to justify an opinion.

 

 

the general opinion of the Sunni scholars on the subject and whether they are also all unanimous or not, those who accept the event - how have they understood it and how have they reconciled it with his traits that are well known, and those who reject it - why are they rejecting it (is it because of it being contradictory with the Prophet's traits or is it because the general events of the story may have some roots in a tale that existed during the Age of Ignorance and thus this could be a possible fabrication, or are they rejecting it based on the chain of narrations). . .

 

Why would I care about what sunni's have when I have my own school of thought. Im just reading the hadith as it is in their sahihs. I am trying to disprove their interpretation behind the hadith.

 

inshAllah I hope when ever you post, all these things you are telling me, you should be the first to apply. Lets not have any double standards. Cant wait to read your next discussion post inshAllah.

Edited by Ethics

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Salam, 

It seems that some brothers believe Islam can only be understood by academics and those who understand and can read and write Arabic.

Just want to say that I'm not an academic nor do I know Arabic but I'm not a fool and know very well who and what my dear and beloved Prophet is. 

 

+1

 

The Prophets had the holy spirit with them from the start, even before coming to this world.  Let alone being pure.

 

We are going in dangerous territory where we defend narrations for the sake of academia and other scholars, when exalting and honoring the exalted ones and not falling short of their status is more important.

 

Everyone can praise Prophets, that's easy, but to recognize the exalted status they given,  this takes a love of Allah and understanding of God's choice with respect to his elite servants.

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the hadith about washing the hearts of prophets is in our books as well as in the sunni books. The golden bowl that is in the Tabut Al Sakinah. In that bowl, the hearts of prophets were washed.

 

 

979 ـ عن العباس بن هلال قال: سئل علي بن اسباط أبا الحسن الرضا (عليه السلام) فقال: أي شيء التابوت الذي كان في بنى اسرائيل؟ قال: كان فيه الواح موسى التي تكسرت، والطشت التي تغسل فيها قلوب الانبياء.

 

وقيل : السكينة طست من ذهب كانت تغسل فيه قلوب الأنبياء ، أعطاها الله موسى عليه السلام فوضع فيها الألواح . ورواه السدي عن أبي مالك عن ابن عباس 
 
 
 
-
It is important to keep in mind that the grace of Allah is endless. Allah can increase someone's knowledge and faith up to limitless level. Our prophet journey to the Sidratul Muntaha is an example. Although we believe in the infallibility of all prophets and imams but noon but our prophet was exalted to reach that level of knowledge .
 
I think we can understand this washing as re-enforcemnt from Allah, an upper level of knowing and believing.  We must realise that when we send our salutation to prophet asking God to purify him although we believe the prophet is purified, these salawat take our prophet to an upper levels and further gifts from Allah and higher levels in heavens. There is no limit for Allah's givings.
 
At least this is the way i understand it. Better than discarding a beautiful hadith.
Regarding the incident of opening the prophet's chest and cleaning his heart with Zamzam waters, it seems as if it isn't reported in our books. It has contradictory details in its various versions in sunni books and some shia object on it or some of its details, specially the dark spot, considering it one of many incidents in which the sunni narrations portrays prophet as ignorant regular human or even less.
I don't know about a black spot in our prophets heart but other than that, i don't see reason to discard the incident of washing hearts of prophets.

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(salam)

 

MY opinion is based on two mere factors, the quran and logic, in support with ismah in our narrations, of which I did provide evidence. That satan CANNOT affect prophets.

 

 

It is funny how your opinion contradicts the opinion of one of the strongest scholars in recent times, in both Qur'an and Logic, and also a hardliner when it comes to defining and explaining 'ismah. If I were you, I'd be questioning my understanding of Qur'an and Logic left, right and center right now.

 

No one (besides mujtahids) can provide this much information. Not even your rijal buddies on SC. I barely have any english sources, let alone all our scholarly works, in arabic and farsi. Plus, language is a limiting factor. Even when a few of your friends or you yourself on site argue something, you quote just a few scholars from a few sources that you agree with. Since when was SC or E-Rijal's ever fair with their research that you expect me to be, and provide an unbiased report? You would first have to find the narration from all our books. That is why at times the conclusions derived from our scholars are enough to justify an opinion.

 

 

Why would I care about what sunni's have when I have my own school of thought. Im just reading the hadith as it is in their sahihs. I am trying to disprove their interpretation behind the hadith.

 
1) A mujtahid (expert in jurisprudence) isn't the only one who can provide this information
2) I don't have any "rijal-buddies" on SC
3) If you don't have any sources, then show a bit of humility when it comes to seeking knowledge
4) I currently, possibly only have one friend on this website who I know in real-life (from those who post regularly). I don't have any other "friends" on this website
5) In this thread, I quoted from two scholars who opposed your opinion (even though I could have also quoted from one who supports your opinion because it would have made no difference to me), only to show you to stop making such blatant statements without any real research and thought and also to show you your incompetence (although nothing seems to have any effect on you). Both those statements that I quoted don't "support" what I agree with - I don't even have an opinion on the subject
6) To compare your posts (more like verdicts) with the posts of some of the brothers who actually make an effort to research and yet don't post anything conclusive (they leave the door open to interpretation and conclusions), is an insult to the other brothers
7) Perhaps when you understand what research entails, you'll see the value in looking into the views of the Sunni scholars - albeit a very general glance at it

 

inshAllah I hope when ever you post, all these things you are telling me, you should be the first to apply. Lets not have any double standards. Cant wait to read your next discussion post inshAllah.

 
I mentioned those things to allude to you that there exists these details for you to look into. The day I decide to form a solid opinion on a matter and present it, I'll make sure to exhaust my efforts. Until then, keep expecting my inconclusive replies and scholarly quotes that go against your opinions whenever they exist.
 
It is funny that some say they don't do taqleed in matters of beliefs, yet don't have an ounce of expertise in anything to be able to do Ijtihad in it.
 
There is nothing constructive being added to the subject at hand through this discourse. Take a step back and look into the subject and incident and reply to the topic. Don't just keep replying for the sake of replying. 
 
Wassalam
Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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To reiterate, I dont have any issue what so ever with the hadith brother Islamic Salvation quoted. I believe it is by the grace of Allah, to purify his past messengers and prophets just as he did with the ahlulbayt a.s. What I reject, is the sunni interpretation and story that the prophet was possessed by satan with a black spot and then an angel did heart surgery and removed the spot and thus satan left him.

 

 

It is funny that some say they don't do taqleed in matters of beliefs, yet don't have an ounce of expertise in anything to be able to do Ijtihad in it.

 

Tell me about it. When you tell them, x scholar believes in this, and I find their argument convincing they bring this argument.

Edited by Ethics

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Maybe this idea of black spot from satan comes from the Roman (christian) concept of Original Sin just like the clasping of the hands in prayer.
 


In the Musannaf of Ibn Abi Shayba, the
following can be found:
 
Abu Bakr [b. Abi Shayba
Ibn ‘Ulaya declared to us: On the
authority of Ibn ‘Awn about Ibn Sirin
that he was asked about the man who
holds his right hand with his left. He
said: “That was merely done because of
the Romans’ [influence].”
Edited by Iskandarovich

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Most sunnis believe the prophet of Allah swt who is the guardian of mankind, let alone His most beloved prophet, would allow Muhammad A.S to get bewitched. Shias unanimously reject such fairytale.

lol oh my, fairytale! This coming from a sect that believes it's 12th imam is hiding in a cave, a cave he has been in for centuries(by the way he wasn't the first shia madhi).  The same sect that believes it's 12 imams have supernatural powers(they have command of every atom in the universe, that's just one example of their many supernatural powers) but apparently not enough to save themselves from their earthly non-supernatural power having enemies.  Many of them had to result to taqiyya, give up power, among other things in other to survive.  Where was all their powers then?  Your strange beliefs are the real fairytales, and the ahl bayt are free from you and your lies.

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lol oh my, fairytale! This coming from a sect that believes it's 12th imam is hiding in a cave, a cave he has been in for centuries(by the way he wasn't the first shia madhi).  The same sect that believes it's 12 imams have supernatural powers(they have command of every atom in the universe, that's just one example of their many supernatural powers) but apparently not enough to save themselves from their earthly non-supernatural power having enemies.  Many of them had to result to taqiyya, give up power, among other things in other to survive.  Where was all their powers then?  Your strange beliefs are the real fairytales, and the ahl bayt are free from you and your lies.

 

Didn't you guys at one point say that the Dajjal is a one eyed man shackled in an Island who goes crazy and screams for over 1400 years? Or weren't you the ones who said that when Uthman changes his clothes the Angels become shy? Or how about that one hadith where Aisha says the Quran is missing a chapter because the chicken ate it? 

 

Try being a little more mature and weigh in properly.

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Didn't you guys at one point say that the Dajjal is a one eyed man shackled in an Island who goes crazy and screams for over 1400 years? Or weren't you the ones who said that when Uthman changes his clothes the Angels become shy? Or how about that one hadith where Aisha says the Quran is missing a chapter because the chicken ate it? 

 

Try being a little more mature and weigh in properly.

It weren't chicken. It were goats.

Edited by Iskandarovich

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Probably different hadiths but Ibn Maja says chicken.

 

وقد وردت عند ابن ماجه(1944)

حدثنا أبو سلمة يحيى بن خلف ثنا عبد الأعلى عن محمد بن إسحاق عن عبد الله بن أبي بكر عن عمرة عن عائشة وعن عبد الرحمن بن القاسم عن أبيه عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها

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Didn't you guys at one point say that the Dajjal is a one eyed man shackled in an Island who goes crazy and screams for over 1400 years? Or weren't you the ones who said that when Uthman changes his clothes the Angels become shy? Or how about that one hadith where Aisha says the Quran is missing a chapter because the chicken ate it? 

 

Try being a little more mature and weigh in properly.

The points I raised are for you as a 12er shia, issues of Aqeedah, however strange and fairytalish they sounds.  You can not say I don't believe in the hidden 12th imam, whose been hiding for centuries now.  You can not say I don't believe in the 12 imams and in them having supernatural powers although their lives and the things they went through go against such beliefs.  As for your points, worse things are written in old "sunni books".  The question here is what are the normative beliefs(Aqeedah) and practices of the average mainstream ahl sunnah.  Your problem is your fairytalish beliefs are your Aqeedah, their are what you belief and practice.  And please lets not get into strange things written in old books because if you've read the shia books, you would be ashamed to even bring that topic up.  Anyway I won't get into that, last time I got suspended for posting fatawa from several 12er schlors, apparently they were offensive.

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So sahih ahaadith (Bukhari & Muslim in particular) are of no value in your belief and fiqh system? I never heard of that when I still believed sunni islam was the right islam. 

Even Salafis for example belief the narration that to recite the first 10 verses of Surah al-Kahf protects the believers of the trials of Dajjal. 

And yes it is not an Aqidah matter but so what? It is a hardcore Sunni belief that mainstream Sunnis and last but not least even Ulama do uphold. 

You're throw in the Quranite card (when things as Dajjal and Mahdi are mentioned) while we all know that Sunni Islam is incorporating ahaadith as well in their beliefs and judgment.

Calling Bukhari and Muslim old Sunni books while claiming to be a Sunni .. Unbelievable ..

Edited by Iskandarovich

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lol oh my, fairytale! This coming from a sect that believes it's 12th imam is hiding in a cave, a cave he has been in for centuries(by the way he wasn't the first shia madhi).  The same sect that believes it's 12 imams have supernatural powers(they have command of every atom in the universe, that's just one example of their many supernatural powers) but apparently not enough to save themselves from their earthly non-supernatural power having enemies.  Many of them had to result to taqiyya, give up power, among other things in other to survive.  Where was all their powers then?  Your strange beliefs are the real fairytales, and the ahl bayt are free from you and your lies.

Prove these "fairy tales" from authentic Shi'ah hadiths.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Prove these "fairy tales" from authentic Shi'ah hadiths.

prove what exactly? :blink: .  Your belief in the hidden 12th imam who also has supernatural powers along with the other 11 imams are basic 12er shia beliefs everyone knows. An essential part of your aqeedah.  If you believe something else, please educate me.

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prove what exactly? :blink: .  Your belief in the hidden 12th imam who also has supernatural powers along with the other 11 imams are basic 12er shia beliefs everyone knows. An essential part of your aqeedah.  If you believe something else, please educate me.

 

You might want to say that to Shaykh al-Mufid, as said:

 

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imams are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imams are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abu Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess.

 

 

(Courtesy of Haydar Husayn)

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So sahih ahaadith (Bukhari & Muslim in particular) are of no value in your belief and fiqh system? I never heard of that when I still believed sunni islam was the right islam. 

Even Salafis for example belief the narration that to recite the first 10 verses of Surah al-Kahf protects the believers of the trials of Dajjal. 

And yes it is not an Aqidah matter but so what? It is a hardcore Sunni belief that mainstream Sunnis and last but not least even Ulama do uphold. 

You're throw in the Quranite card (when things as Dajjal and Mahdi are mentioned) while we all know that Sunni Islam is incorporating ahaadith as well in their beliefs and judgment.

Calling Bukhari and Muslim old Sunni books while claiming to be a Sunni .. Unbelievable ..

did i ever mention bukhari and muslim?  there are other books both sunni and shia.  I very much belief in the authentic hadith narrations, I'm not a "quranite" whatever that is? You have a serious aqeedah issue in 12er shiaism, that is your main problem and the reason despite studying 12er shiaism I will never accept it and look at ppl who accept it as...

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prove what exactly? :blink:

I don't think I need to repeat myself for such a simple question I stated. The problem with you is that because you have learned from your research that part of Shia Aqeeda have such a beliefs, doesn't tell anything of its truthness. For example we don't believe that Allah [swt] delegated part of His affair to Ahlulbait [as]:

وروي عن زرارة أنه قال، قلت للصادق عليه السلام: إن رجلا من ولد عبد الله بن سبأ يقول بالتفويض. قال عليه السلام: "وما التفويض"؟ قلت: يقول: إن الله عز وجل خلق محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله وعليا عليه السلام ثم فوض الأمر إليهما، فخلقا، ورزقا، وأحييا، وأماتا. فقال: "كذب عدو الله، إذا رجعت إليه فاقرأ عليه الآية التي في سورة الرعد {أَمْ جَعَلُواْ لِلّهِ شُرَكَاء خَلَقُواْ كَخَلْقِهِ فَتَشَابَهَ الْخَلْقُ عَلَيْهِمْ قُلِ اللَّهُ خَالِقُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ}."

 

فانصرفت إلى الرجل فأخبرته بما قال الصادق عليه السلام فكأنما ألقمته حجرا، أو قال: فكأنما خرس.

 

And it is reported from Zurara1 that he said: "I said to Al-Sadiq (as): 'Verily a man from the children of Abdullah ibn Saba2 has professed Tafwidh.' He (as) said: 'And what is Tafwidh3?' I said: 'He is saying: 'Verily Allah created Muhammad (saww) and Ali (as) and then delegated to them the affair4, so they created, and disperssed rizq, and gave life, and death5.' So he said: 'The enemy of Allah lied! When you return to him, read to him the verse which is in Surah Al-Ra'd: 'Or have they attributed to Allah partners who created like His creation so that the creation [of each] seemed similar to them? Say,  Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Prevailing.6' So I went back to him the man and told him what Al-Sadiq (as) said, so he was like I fed him a stone7." or he said: "He was as though he wad dumbstruck"

 

Al-I'tiqadat Fi Al-Diin Al-Imamiyya page 104

 

Instead we believe in this.

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did i ever mention bukhari and muslim?  there are other books both sunni and shia.  I very much belief in the authentic hadith narrations, I'm not a "quranite" whatever that is? 

I don't know about you but the 'fairy tales' that were mentioned as stated below:

(the Dajjal is a one eyed man shackled in an Island who goes crazy and screams for over 1400 years? Or weren't you the ones who said that when Uthman changes his clothes the Angels become shy? Or how about that one hadith where Aisha says the Quran is missing a chapter because the chicken ate it?)

 

They came from Bukhari. Muslim and/or one of the Kutub al-Sittah if not are however authentic narrations. It's kinda strange that you're not aware of this unless you you try to cover it up by denying it. 

 

You have a serious aqeedah issue in 12er shiaism, that is your main problem and the reason despite studying 12er shiaism I will never accept it and look at ppl who accept it as...

 

My problem isn't Shia Islam but Sunni Islam. 

The main reason of my irritation during the investigation of the succession of the Prophet s.a.w. was not the chaos, the absence of logic and the atrocities made during and in the successions that were merely about political tactics and survival of the fittest instead of Divine Guidance. justice and brotherhood. 

The main reason of my irritation was the absence of Divine Guidance concerning leadership and succession and that is exactly the reason why succession of the Prophet s.a.w. is not incorporated in your Aqidah because you know very well that it was indeed political and had nothing to do with the Will of Allah. (How can succession of the Prophet s.a.w. not be incorporated in Aqidah anyway?)

So when I came to know about Imamate in Shia Islam the choice wasn't hard to make.

Edited by Iskandarovich

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Shaykh Saduq:

Sheikh Sadooq said, “The Imam is born. He also has children. He gets ill and he gets cured. He eats and drinks. He urinates and defecates. He gets married. He sleeps. He forgets and he makes mistakes. [337] He gets happy and sad. He laughs and cries. He lives and then dies. He is buried and the people go to visit his shrine. He is resurrected and questioned. He is rewarded and honored. He intercedes. There are two important signs for him: his knowledge and the fulfillment of his prayers. He has heard the news that he gives about the events in the future from his grandfathers from the Prophet of God (s). The Prophet of God (s) has heard them from Gabriel. Gabriel has heard them from the Almighty God.

 

Salamun Alaykum.

 

This isn't a statement by Shaykh al-Saduq [ra], he is reporting a hadith in one of his books, this is a hadith. I haven't seen an explicit statement where Shaykh al-Saduq [ra] actually and explicitly states that the Imams [as] as capable of making mistakes. In fact, you have other classical scholars, like Shaykh al-Tusi [ra] explicitly stating the Imams [as] don't actually do mistakes.

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