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enigma313

Black Spot Supposedly Removed From Prophet's Heart

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And just another thing about two angels who visited Rasulullah

during his childhood and removed a black spot from his heart.

 

Can this be true?  Please provide references that refute this, if

this is the case.

 

Why would someone who was born pure have any need to have "the seed of evil" removed from their heart?

 

Sunni belief, we don't waste our time believing in such nonsense.

Edited by Akbar673

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

السلام عليكم

 

If what they suggest is true then the "seed of evil" is physical, meaning that the two angels had to do surgery to remove it. For the sake of argument, lets say they opened his (pbuh) chest, now when they re-close it it must show a scar. Why haven't we had any accounts of an open heart surgery scar on the Prophet's صل الله عليه واله وسلم chest?

 

This is similar to the argument they make about Allah (s.w.t) having hands and a face.

Edited by Ibn Al-Shahid

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The heart does not contain the identity or the sins of a man. It is the mind his brain that encompasses his thoughts. If a man has a heart transplant does he inherit the donors sins lol.

We are in the 21st century now guys

 

Shia belief is that the Ahle Bayt (AS) were born pure in all aspects and free of evil.  Regardless of whatever physical or mental aspect it may apply to. As such we reject the notion of the Prophet (pbuh) having any illogical defect in him.

 

Why would Allah (swt) in all his logic and intelligence send a flawed person to deliver his final message?

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How many prophets have been mentioned in Quran who have been operated for the removal of the dots from their heart?

 

The answer is no one, thus it is unacceptable that the Chief of the prophet has been performed the surgery on his heart for removal of dots.

 

This is entirely rejected in Shia belief . The  Quran mentions that the prophet and his Ahl albayt as has been kept pure and free from all blemishes as per Verse of purification 33:33 last part.

 

Regards

Edited by skamran110

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Well, there is a narration in kamal ud din wa tamam nemah that says an angel came when the prophet saww was a baby and opened his chest the removed a black spot from his heaet then inserted some green grass or something in it's place etc. Sounds a bit dodgy to me but there you go.

Here:

6 - Narrated to us Ali bin Ahmad (r.a.) that: Narrated to us Ahmad bin Yahya that: Narrated to us Muhammad bin Ismail that he said: Narrated to us Abdullah bin Muhammad: Narrated to us my father from Saeed bin Muslim, freed slave of Bani Makhzum from Saeed bin Abi Salih from his father from Ibne Abbas that he said: I heard my father, Abbas say: “When my brother Abdullah was born, there was effulgence upon his face like the light of the sun. My respected father, Abdul Muttalib said: This son of mine will have an exalted status. Then one night I dreamt that a white bird emerged from the nose of Abdullah and flew up to reach the east and the west. Then it returned and perched on the roof of the Kaaba. At that moment all the people of Quraish prostrated towards it and began to gaze at it in amazement. There was a light which enveloped the earth and the sky and the east and the west. After waking up I inquired about it from a lady diviner who belonged to Bani Makhzum. She said: If your dream is true a boy would be born from the loins of Abdullah who will rule over the people of the east and the west. Abbas says that after this I was always on the lookout for a consort for Abdullah till he was married to Amina. She was the most beautiful girl in all of Quraish. After that Abdullah passed away and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) was born posthumously. I saw an effulgence emanating from his forehead. When I took him in my arms the fragrance of musk came out from his body and I became fragrant like a musk navel-bag. Amina told me: When the labor started I heard many noises in the house which were not human voices. Then I saw a flag of a thin fine cloth attached to a pole of ruby. It had filled up the earth and the sky and a light was rising up from the head of this child which had illuminated the sky. In it I saw the palaces of Shaam which looked like flames of fire due to the brilliant light. And I saw around myself pigeon-like birds spreading out their wings. I also saw the Bani Asad genie passing through and saying: O Amina what all the fortune-tellers and idols will have to see from your son! After that I saw a tall young man who was the most elegant of all and had donned the most beautiful dress. I thought that it was Abdul Muttalib. He took my son in his arms and made him suck his saliva. He had a tray of gold with him which was studded with emeralds and also had a comb of gold. He cut open the belly of my son and took out his heart. Then he cut it open and took out a black spot and threw it out. Then he took out bag of green brocade and took out a kind of white grass from the bag. Then he filled up the heart with this grass and placed the heart back into its place. Then he stroked the baby’s stomach and spoke to him. The infant replied to him. I could not understand their conversation except that he said: Remain in the care and security of Allah. Indeed I have filled up your heart with faith, knowledge, certainty and valor. You are the best human. Good for one who follows you and woe to one who opposes you. Then he took out another bag which was made of white brocade. From that he removed a seal and imprinted it between his shoulders. The imprint arose on the skin. Then he said: My Lord has commanded that I should blow the sacred spirit into your breast. Thus he blew the soul into the body of the Prophet and dressed him up in a robe and said: This will protect you from all the calamities of the world. O Abbas, this is all what I witnessed .....................

I have no idea on it's authenticity

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I have read that the report of the black spot, related by Anas in Sahih Muslim, says that the angel Gabriel came down and ripped open the chest of the young boy Muhammad SA, took out the heart, and extracted a blood-clot out of it. The quote mentioned reads this way: “That was the part of Satan in thee.” It seems impossible that the angel Gabriel would say such a thing about our Holy Prophet SA.

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يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ آذَوْا مُوسَىٰ فَبَرَّأَهُ اللَّهُ مِمَّا قَالُوا ۚ وَكَانَ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَجِيهًا {69}

[shakir 33:69] O you who believe! be not like those who spoke evil things of Musa, but Allah cleared him of what they said, and he was worthy of regard with Allah.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَقُولُوا قَوْلًا سَدِيدًا {70}

[shakir 33:70] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and speak the right word,

يُصْلِحْ لَكُمْ أَعْمَالَكُمْ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ فَازَ فَوْزًا عَظِيمًا {71}

[shakir 33:71] He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, he indeed achieves a mighty success.

 

 

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا {33}

[ 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah desires to only keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and purifies you a (thorough) purification.
 

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علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أسباط ومحمد بن أحمد ، عن موسى بن القاسم البجلي ، عن علي بن أسباط قال قلت لأبي الحسن الرضا عليه‌السلام جعلت فداك ما ترى آخذ برا أو بحرا فإن طريقنا مخوف شديد الخطر فقال اخرج برا ولا عليك أن تأتي مسجد رسول الله صلى‌الله‌عليه‌وآله وتصلي ركعتين في غير وقت فريضة ثم لتستخير الله مائة مرة ومرة ثم تنظر فإن عزم الله لك على البحر فقل الذي قال الله عز وجل «وَقالَ ارْكَبُوا فِيها بِسْمِ اللهِ مَجْراها وَمُرْساها إِنَّ رَبِّي لَغَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ» فإن اضطرب بك البحر فاتك على جانبك الأيمن وقل بسم الله اسكن بسكينة الله وقر بوقار الله واهدأ بإذن الله ولا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله قلنا أصلحك الله ما السكينة ريح تخرج من الجنة لها صورة كصورة الإنسان ـ ورائحة طيبة وهي التي نزلت على إبراهيم فأقبلت تدور حول أركان البيت وهو يضع الأساطين قيل له هي من التي قال الله عز وجل : «فِيهِ سَكِينَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ وَبَقِيَّةٌ مِمَّا تَرَكَ آلُ مُوسى وَآلُ هارُونَ» قال تلك السكينة في التابوت وكانت فيه طشت تغسل فيها قلوب الأنبياء وكان التابوت يدور في بني إسرائيل مع الأنبياء ثم أقبل علينا فقال ما تابوتكم قلنا السلاح قال صدقتم هو تابوتكم وإن خرجت برا فقل الذي قال الله عز وجل «سُبْحانَ الَّذِي سَخَّرَ لَنا هذا وَما كُنَّا لَهُ مُقْرِنِينَ. وَإِنَّا إِلى رَبِّنا لَمُنْقَلِبُونَ» فإنه ليس من عبد يقولها عند ركوبه فيقع من بعير أو دابة فيصيبه شيء بإذن الله ثم قال فإذا خرجت من منزلك فقل بسم الله آمنت بالله توكلت على الله لا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله ـ فإن الملائكة تضرب وجوه الشياطين ويقولون قد سمى الله وآمن بالله وتوكل على الله وقال لا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله

 

 

5. Ali b. Ibrahim from his father (Ibrahim b. Hashim) from Ibn Asbat AND Muhammad b. Ahmad from Musa b. al-Qasim al-Bajali from Ali b. Asbat who said:

 

I said to Abi al-Hasan al-Ridha عليه السلام: may I be made your ransom - should I go by way of land or sea - for our journey is fearful and very dangerous?

So he said: go out by way of land - and there is nothing upon you (no harm upon you) that you go to the Masjid of the messenger of Allah and pray a two unit prayer in other than the time of the obligatory prayer, then you supplicate to Allah for the best option a hundred and one times, then you observe - so if Allah decides the sea for you (by casting this decision into your heart) then say what Allah the Mighty and Majestic said: “And say: embark upon it - in the name of Allah be its sailing and anchoring - verily my Lord is most forgiving the merciful” (11:41), so if the sea is tumultuous then take support (lean) on your right side and say: “in the name of Allah - be tranquil by the tranquility of Allah and be calm by the calmness of Allah and be aright (quiet down) by the will of Allah - and there is no strength nor power save by Allah”.

We said: may Allah grant you prosperity - what is the Sakina?

He said: a wind that comes from paradise - it has a face like the face of a man and good fragrance, and it is the one which descended upon Ibrahim so it began revolving around the pillars of the House (Ka’ba) while he was setting up the beams .

It was said to him: is it the one about which Allah the Mighty and Majestic said: “In it - a Sakina - from your lord and remnants [relics] from that which was left by the family of Musa and the family of Harun” (2:248)?

He said: that is the Sakina of the ark (of the covenant), and in it (i.e. the ark) was a basin in which was washed the hearts of the prophets, and the ark used to move around in Bani Israil only among the prophets.

Then he turned to us and said: what is your ark?

We said: the weapons (of the messenger of Allah)

He said: you have spoken the truth - it is your ark.

And if you go by way of land [on the back of an animal] then say that which was said by Allah the Mighty and Majestic: “Praised be the one who has made this submissive to us and we could not have otherwise subdued it and to our lord are we to return” (43:13) for there is not a slave who says it whence he climbs on (and begins a journey) and then goes on to fall off his camel or animal and gets hurt - by the will of Allah.

Then he said: and when you leave your house say: “In the name of Allah, I have believed in Allah, I have depended on Allah, there is no strength nor power save by Allah” for the angels beat the faces of the devils and they say: he (the man) has named Allah, and believed in Allah, and depended upon Allah, and said: there is no strength nor power save by Allah. (Muwathaq)

 

 

How does that black bolded statement make sense to the topic at hand?  Interesting to point out though, from what I understand from the hadith, the very relics of past prophets cause a wind from the heavens to carry them, subhanAllah. Those who deny, our prophets and imams are not special beings, yet the very objects they possessed have such essence in them. Allahuakbar

Edited by Ethics

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How does that black bolded statement make sense to the topic at hand?  Interesting to point out though, from what I understand from the hadith, the very relics of past prophets cause a wind from the heavens to carry them, subhanAllah. Those who deny, our prophets and imams are not special beings, yet the very objects they possessed have such essence in them. Allahuakbar

 

If you read the Sunni narrations that contain this story of removing the black spot (clot) you will see that it also says that the heart of the prophet was washed in a golden bowl with the water of ZamZam.

This Hadith shows that we have a similar narration in regards washing of the hearts of the previous prophets and nothing more.

  

E.g. That Gabriel came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upo him) while he was playing with his playmates. He took hold of him and lay him prostrate on the ground and tore open his breast and took out the heart from it and then extracted a blood-clot out of it and said: That was the part of Satan in thee. And then he washed it with the water of Zamzam in a golden basin and then it was joined together and restored to it place. The boys came running to his mother, i. e. his nurse, and said: Verily Muhammad has been murdered. They all rushed toward him (and found him all right) His color was changed, Anas said. I myself saw the marks of needle on his breast. [sahih Muslim]

E.g. On the authority of Malik b. Sa sa', perhaps a person of his tribe, that the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I was near the House (i. e. Ka'bah) in a state between sleep and wakefulness when I heard someone say: He is the third among the two persons. Then he came to me and took me with him. Then a golden basin containing the water of Zamzam was brought to me and my heart was opened up to such and such (part). Qatada said: I asked him who was with me (i e. the narrator) and what he meant by such and such (part). He replied: (It means that it was opened) up to the lower part of his abdomen (Then the hadith continues): My heart was extracted and it was washed with the water of Zamzam and then it was restored in its original position, after which it was filled with faith and wisdom ... [sahih Muslim]

The "wind" did not carry the relics. The prophets and Imams were special though.

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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If you read the Sunni narrations that contain this story of removing the black spot (clot) you will see that it also says that the heart of the prophet was washed in a golden bowl with the water of ZamZam. This Hadith shows that we have a similar narration in regards washing of the hearts of the previous prophets.

The "wind" did not carry the relics.

They are not even close let alone similar. First of all this Hadith isn't speaking about Muhammad. Second, I doubt washing the hearts with a literal basin, implies anything other than what it's saying. Also the Sunni narration is a total contradiction to the Quran. Verse 33:33 speaks of a purification. It wouldn't make any sense for God to purify the prophet twice. Not does it make any sense what so ever for a prophet of God, let alone a human have a devil inside them. Also can you kindly go over your translation? I couldn't understand the English. Some parts didn't make sense. Edited by Ethics

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Second, I doubt washing the hearts with a literal basin, implies anything other than what it's saying

What else did I say it implies?

 

It wouldn't make any sense for God to purify the prophet twice.

I think we should leave that to God.

Anyway, my only point was to show that there exists the concept of the washing of the hearts of the Prophets in a basin - in our authentic narrations - nothing more or less. And this is a concept that the A'mma have also narrated.

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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He said: that is the Sakina of the ark (of the covenant), and in it (i.e. the ark) was a basin in which was washed the hearts of the prophets, and the ark used to move around in Bani Israil only among the prophets.

It says "washed the hearts of the prophets". Does it automatically include Prophet Muhammad (saw) instead of only Israelite prophets as indicated in the next words "move around in Bani Israil only among the prophets"?

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The point is that the hadith claims there was impurity in him s.a.w. after his birth. 

To wash the hearts and then put them in their bodies while creating them (the Prophets a.s.) is a diffirence.

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The point is that the hadith claims there was impurity in him s.a.w. after his birth. 

To wash the hearts and then put them in their bodies while creating them (the Prophets a.s.) is a diffirence.

I am not establishing anything beyond the content of what came in our Hadith, which says that some prophet's hearts were washed, I do not agree with other points in the Sunni Hadith unless I see evidence for it which I have not.

As al-Majlisi says:

ويدل الخبر على أن قلوب الأنبياء تخرجها الملائكة وتغسلها كما ورد في الأخبار العامية

And the report evidences the fact that the hearts of the prophet are removed by the angels and washed as has come in the reports of the Sunnis.

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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What are the points in the Sunni hadith you do agree with not?

And can you give me a proper translation of our hadith and give a context more broad?

Last but least not, what about the heart of Isa a.s. who as a prophet was born?

Edited by Iskandarovich

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What else did I say it implies?

 

I think we should leave that to God.

Anyway, my only point was to show that there exists the concept of the washing of the hearts of the Prophets in a basin - in our authentic narrations - nothing more or less. And this is a concept that the A'mma have also narrated.

 

It could possibly imply an actual wash like gusl and not some metaphorical, "cleansing". With due respect dear brother, saying we should leave it to God, reminds me of christian reasoning. If something doesnt make rational sense, there is a HUGE question mark. If it is enough for the prophets and imams, to narrate us hadiths, I think its obvious, they did so with the intention, that it would be something at the very least sensible, to all their followers, for all of times.

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The narration would only not make sense if you have some a priori beliefs about the Prophet that would be incompatible with this narration. There is nothing inherently bad with someone having their heart cleansed, as a child, before becoming a Prophet, and neither is it incompatible with the Qur'an or the majority of the hadiths. Problems only arise if you view the Prophet as some kind of supernatural being, sent down from heaven, and incarnated in the form of a man.

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It probably means the Israelite prophets.

But once this concept is proven for any prophet - then there should not be Inkar [rejection] if someone adduces it for our prophet, nor should it be seen as something below the status of a prophet.

Sure. I have no problem if there's proof that the Prophet (saw) also had a similar incident when he was a baby. The issue for me is more on the accuracy of extending this hadith to include the Prophet (saw) when it doesn't say so. Edited by rotten_coconut

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Again, no one is saying being cleansed is a bad thing. Especially in the hadith in our books, there is no mention of satan possessing him or other rubbish christian beliefs. There is no issue for past prophets to be purified just as our prophet and ahlulbayt are purified. Heck, we as human beings are pure by birth infallible. There is no way in any rational sense, we humans being born pure, would somehow exclude the prophet as a child. The quran is very clear on the matter. Satan testifying to not being able to touch any of God's chosen beings, prior to their existence.

 

“Without a doubt, I shall misguide them except those who are chosen (mukhlas) from amongst them,”3

 

Also, as I mentioned, purifying a being twice, makes no absolute sense, especially if it is a spiritual purification. Per sunni hadith, God takes satan out of the prophet with one purifying and then another with 33:33. Not only can it be implied that the first purification didnt work, but supposedly, in between, the prophet must have made sins. What is the point of the first purification, if God himself fails to realize HE cannot purify His chosen beings and that Satan is stronger then God, since the purification didnt work. You see the HUGE difference is, by 33:33, God isnt purifying them of satan or anything like that. It is a testament from Allah that they are the purest of the pure, and that they always have been, with Allah swt giving them protection. After all that is what infallibility implies. A being, regardless of time, does not sin. It doesnt mean at one point they were fallible. Before 33:33 was revealed, they were already infallible and pure.

 

Oh and the prophets are nothing less than supernatural beings. Any sensible human can realize that. Go tell an atheist, Isa A.S was a human who could revive the dead and heal beings. They will describe it as nothing less than supernatural.

 

Im sure we all agree the prophet was an Imam by status as well.

 

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn 'Isa from al-Hasan ibn Mahbub from Ishaq ibn Ghalib from abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) who has described the condition of the Imams (a.s.) and their attributes in one of his sermons:

He has always been looked after by the watchful eyes of Allah Who would provide him security and guard him with His shield, well protected against the evil nets of Satan and his armies. He is well defended against the approaching dark nights and the false accusations of the evil doers. All wickedness is kept away from him and he kept safe against all forms of defects and flaws. He is veiled against all the scourge and infallible in the case of sins. He is kept safe and sound against all indecencies. He is well known for his forbearance and virtuousness in the early days of his life and great knowledge, chastity and excellence are ascribed to him towards the end of his life. The task of Imamt (leadership) of his father rests with him while in the lifetime of his father he remained silent.
H 524, Ch. 15, h 2, Al Kafi

 

 

Edited by Ethics

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salam

repeated failed attempts to stain the ismat of Maasuums. i dont know how inquiries like these will help me become a better servant of Allah. but if anything, it makes me love The Prophet (sawa) and His Family (as) even more.

kindly send salawat Muhammad o Aalay Muhammad. one of its many benefits is that it helps remove hypocricy from him who sends salawat in a loud voice. and w his heart.

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Again, no one is saying being cleansed is a bad thing. Especially in the hadith in our books, there is no mention of satan possessing him or other rubbish christian beliefs. There is no issue for past prophets to be purified just as our prophet and ahlulbayt are purified. Heck, we as human beings are pure by birth infallible. There is no way in any rational sense, we humans being born pure, would somehow exclude the prophet as a child. The quran is very clear on the matter. Satan testifying to not being able to touch any of God's chosen beings, prior to their existence.

 

“Without a doubt, I shall misguide them except those who are chosen (mukhlas) from amongst them,”3

 

Also, as I mentioned, purifying a being twice, makes no absolute sense, especially if it is a spiritual purification. Per sunni hadith, God takes satan out of the prophet with one purifying and then another with 33:33. Not only can it be implied that the first purification didnt work, but supposedly, in between, the prophet must have made sins. What is the point of the first purification, if God himself fails to realize HE cannot purify His chosen beings and that Satan is stronger then God, since the purification didnt work. You see the HUGE difference is, by 33:33, God isnt purifying them of satan or anything like that. It is a testament from Allah that they are the purest of the pure, and that they always have been, with Allah swt giving them protection. After all that is what infallibility implies. A being, regardless of time, does not sin. It doesnt mean at one point they were fallible. Before 33:33 was revealed, they were already infallible and pure.

Ayah 33:33 doesn't imply that the Prophet was purified twice. Do you think he only became purified when that ayah was revealed? Assuming we take him to even be included in the ayah, which seems debatable, then his purification could simply be referring to this incident. It doesn't say when the ahlulbayt were purified, or that it was all at the same time (which clearly it wasn't).

 

Oh and the prophets are nothing less than supernatural beings. Any sensible human can realize that. Go tell an atheist, Isa A.S was a human who could revive the dead and heal beings. They will describe it as nothing less than supernatural.

It wasn't `Isa [a] that revived the dead, but Allah. You are talking like `Isa had some sort of 'power' to do such things, when in fact it was Allah doing it through him.

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Ayah 33:33 doesn't imply that the Prophet was purified twice. Do you think he only became purified when that ayah was revealed? Assuming we take him to even be included in the ayah, which seems debatable, then his purification could simply be referring to this incident. It doesn't say when the ahlulbayt were purified, or that it was all at the same time (which clearly it wasn't).

 

It wasn't `Isa [a] that revived the dead, but Allah. You are talking like `Isa had some sort of 'power' to do such things, when in fact it was Allah doing it through him.

 

I never said 33:33 implied they were purified twice, huh? Wait what? Assume that he was included in the ayah? Debatable? Have you read our hadiths on 33:33? If you are speaking about sunni narrations, the narrations are very clear and and descriptive of when it was, if there was anyone with the prophet, how it was done. It cannot be logically two of the same events.

 

yea, yea, Isa A.S didnt revive the dead, Allah gave him the power, what ever. If you think you have to be anything less than a supernatural being to be given such a power, or be able to use such a power, you are ridiculous.

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The narration would only not make sense if you have some a priori beliefs about the Prophet that would be incompatible with this narration. There is nothing inherently bad with someone having their heart cleansed, as a child, before becoming a Prophet, and neither is it incompatible with the Qur'an or the majority of the hadiths. Problems only arise if you view the Prophet as some kind of supernatural being, sent down from heaven, and incarnated in the form of a man.

My a priori belief about Our Prophet s.a.w. is that he s.a.w. is Al-Insan Al-Kamil, Khayru-l-khalq.

The Best of creation, the first ever created before even the Arsh, the Kursi, the Kalam and all other creatures and creations. 

And then believe he s.a.w. was born with a spot of satan on his heart?

 

Audhu billah

 

Edited by Iskandarovich

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I never said 33:33 implied they were purified twice, huh? Wait what? Assume that he was included in the ayah? Debatable? Have you read our hadiths on 33:33? If you are speaking about sunni narrations, the narrations are very clear and and descriptive of when it was, if there was anyone with the prophet, how it was done. It cannot be logically two of the same events.

Do you believe that Sunnis believe that anything changed for the Prophet when that ayah was revealed? Personally, I've never seen any Sunnis claim he became further purified when this occurred.

 

yea, yea, Isa A.S didnt revive the dead, Allah gave him the power, what ever. If you think you have to be anything less than a supernatural being to be given such a power, or be able to use such a power, you are ridiculous.

It's amazing how you are constantly so willing to remove Allah from anything, and put human beings in place instead. 'Agree with me or you are ridiculous' is not an argument. In what sense would prophets be supernatural beings? Do you not believe they are made out of the same matter as us, that their bodies don't obey the same laws of nature as us (excepting miracles)? Be specific about how you think prophets are physically different from us.

Regarding the Imams being supernatural beings, here is what Shaykh Saduq and Shaykh Mufid have said:

Shaykh Saduq:

Sheikh Sadooq said, “The Imam is born. He also has children. He gets ill and he gets cured. He eats and drinks. He urinates and defecates. He gets married. He sleeps. He forgets and he makes mistakes. [337] He gets happy and sad. He laughs and cries. He lives and then dies. He is buried and the people go to visit his shrine. He is resurrected and questioned. He is rewarded and honored. He intercedes. There are two important signs for him: his knowledge and the fulfillment of his prayers. He has heard the news that he gives about the events in the future from his grandfathers from the Prophet of God (s). The Prophet of God (s) has heard them from Gabriel. Gabriel has heard them from the Almighty God.

[337] The author has interpreted this in Man La Yahdharohu al-Faqih as follows, “When for some reason God wills the Imam to forget or make a mistake, the Imam himself will immediately inform others about it so that no one gets misled." Of course, this is what the author and his master Ibn al-Walid believe, not all the great Sheikhs. They say forgetting and making mistakes are in contradiction with innocence or “Ismat” which is the criteria for being the Imam. Thus they either interpret or reject all such cases.

(uyun akhbar al-ReDa, vol 1, commentary on hadith 19:2, p.400)

 

 

See other similar statements: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235002920-were-the-classical-scholars-muqassirs/

Shaykh Mufid:

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imams are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imams are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abu Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess.

(Tashih al-I`tiqad)

 

With regards to the miracles of `Isa [a], Shaykh Tusi said:

The intended meaning of creation (in this verse) is taqdir (ordainment) apart from ihdath (generation). It is said in the explanation that he made from clay as the shape of a bat, and blew thereon and so it became a bird. And the meaning of “I blow thereon”, meaning: I blow the soul (ar-ruh) in it, and it is a subtle body like the wind. And it is other than the life (al-hayat), for the body is only made alive by what Allah does in it of life, for bodies – all of them – are alike, Allah makes to live from them whatever He wills. And he only conditioned his saying of “and it shall become a bird by the permission of Allah” and did not condition his saying of “I will create for you out of clay as though it were the form of a bird” with mention of the permission of Allah so that he might remind by the mention of the permission (al-idhn) that it is from the act of Allah apart from `Isa. But as to the formation and the blowing, then it was his (`Isa’s) act, for it is not of what enters under the determined (maqdur) of qadr. But the transformation of the inanimate body into a living creature is not like that, for no one is able to do that apart from Him. And his saying “and I will bring the dead to life by the permission of Allah” is on a figurative sense in adjoining it to himself, while its reality is that he would pray to Allah to revive the dead, so Allah would revive them and they would live by His permission.

(Tafsir at-tibyan)

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Do you believe that Sunnis believe that anything changed for the Prophet when that ayah was revealed? Personally, I've never seen any Sunnis claim he became further purified when this occurred.

 

LOL then what was the point of the purifying if he wasnt purified? Why does the quran and their hadith both imply something that it is not? Do I believe? My beliefs dont mean anything to sunnis so, it doesnt really matter. Im just saying it as it is.

 

 

It's amazing how you are constantly so willing to remove Allah from anything, and put human beings in place instead. 'Agree with me or you are ridiculous' is not an argument. In what sense would prophets be supernatural beings? Do you not believe they are made out of the same matter as us, that their bodies don't obey the same laws of nature as us (excepting miracles)? Be specific about how you think prophets are physically different from us.

 

Remove Allah? Since when did I remove Allah. Lets not put words in peoples mouths please. Its only one day after ramadan... How Allah swt works with prophets is the same how He works with us. Do we go claiming, Allah willed for us to talk, eat, walk, read, watch? No it is already implied. Same goes for prophets. I dont need to mention it, it is already implied. Lets be honest, my argument wasnt agree or you are ridiculous. I said, if you claim a being who is able to bring the dead back to life, is normal, then you are ridiculous. It doesnt matter how you phrase it, or whether God caused it or not, whether he prayed to God or not, an atheist will call it super natural, because that is the phenomenon, literally. Naturally, humans cant pray to bring the dead back or heal any ailment, come on brother lol.

 

 

Regarding the Imams being supernatural beings, here is what Shaykh Saduq and Shaykh Mufid have said:

 

And I care why? I dont do taqleed on matters of aqaeed. I disagree with Sheik Suduq r.a respectfully..

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Instead of being inquisitive and accepting one's ignorance, and give the chance to properly contemplate over discussions and issues and research them exhaustively, give the opportunity to see what other interpretations and understandings can be given etc., we have too many Muslims making hasty judgements. This is a very dangerous disease.

 

Its not like I have shut my eyes and ears. I am simply not convinced with what has been provided. That IS my right. Nor do I do taqleed to aqeed. This is a forum after all, whats the point, if no one has the right to provide their research or opinion. Oh and if your going to provide opinions, at least do us a favor and translate it, hoping that it is translated correctly... Its like you expect us to believe what ever you provide, without a translation? Come on ..

 

[shakir 17:1] Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

 

This verse is speaking about the ascension, and has nothing to do with a black spot in the heart of the prophet. Let me ask you, how can a prophet who is impure, be allowed in the highest of heavens, if those who claim he was. So now I am very confused on what your post has to do with anything...

Edited by Ethics

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